Wildcat helicopter camouflage question

[P6 Driver]

My apologies if this has been covered - I couldn't locate it on a search...

The RN and AAC Wildcat helicopters carry the same camouflage colours. There used to be a rumour that the RN had their way with the colour scheme and that the AAC Wildcats are painted the same because when a particular meeting took place to decide the scheme, the RN attended but the Army didn't show.

Is it just an Urban Myth?

[Martin the Martian]

I also heard a rumour that when the HC.3s are converted to HC.4s they will get the same camouflage.

[Junglydaz]

Indeed. HC4 will be a grey cam pattern. Some boffin somewhere said that this was the best camouflage. How that helps when they are FOBing forward on Salisbury Plain or in a Jungle environment, time will tell!

[teeteringhead]

This discussion has just put another question in my mind. Now that the pongoes (and the rest of us :() have ditched CS 95 for PCS/MTP, why are the jets etc still in "CS 95" type colours .....


..... just sayin'

[Martin the Martian]

Wonder if the HM.2s will go the same way?

And I've just come across a wonderful new name for the Commando Merlins on Fighter Control: Munglie.

Sacrilege to some, I know, but I sort of like it.

[Charlie Time]

Urban myth.

[melmothtw]

Didn't the RAF experiment with low-viz grey on a Wessex in Northern Ireland, only to find that it actually made the helicopter appear to 'glow' in the dark?

Would the same not be true for army Wildcats operating at night with this naval paint scheme?

[P6 Driver]

Urban myth.

Easy to say of course, but on what basis?
(i.e. How and why did the Army get lumbered with the two-tone grey?)

[huge72]

Melmothtw, is quite right. We trialled several colour schemes in 91 on the Wessex. All over Matt Black made them stand out as a dark shadow at night, the low viz Grey did indeed make them glow and the best result came from the new two tone green which was adopted by both Wessex and Puma. A vast improvement over the older Grey Green Scheme. This was held up by several Fast Jet Pilots who were working up for Bosnia at the time using 60 Sqn's Wessex as targets and the new scheme made it very difficult for them to acquire visually.

[melmothtw]

Thanks for the confirmation huge72. It would seem odd that the army is either unaware of these trials, or is ignoring the results. That said though, the USMC adopted grey for its rotorcraft some time back, and doesn't seem to have experienced any issues with glowing in the dark.

[9BIT]

The grey glowed due to the predominance of cultural lighting in that theatre. Mainly an issue with the sodium lights around the FOBs. Grey works great in the littoral environment.

[NutLoose]

A vast improvement over the older Grey Green Scheme

And of course the Grey Green Scheme originally derived from the early WW2 Brown Green Scheme that was found to have disadvantages when the RAF started to operate out over the sea, the Brown was over painted Grey and the new Grey Green Scheme was found to be an ideal compromise for Aircraft operating over both land and water... which nicely brings us back to the first post.

:)

[Rotate too late]

Could always use elephant white........;)

[Martin the Martian]

Actually, the change from dark earth and dark green to ocean grey and dark green was more due to the fact that as RAF aircraft were on the offensive they were also flying at higher altitudes, and the dark earth was of no value at all. I used to think it was down to wanting less visibility over the sea as well until I read otherwise.

I'll have to look the reference up. There is a lot more to it than just flying higher but without the book to hand I can't say much more about it.

Sorry, back on topic.

[NutLoose]

Partially correct I believe, as the high altitude fighter scheme was grey uppers and Pr blue lowers. the Grey Green was both for Height and Sea

[P6 Driver]

As the OP, thank you for the informative replies.
:ok:

[NutLoose]

The 1943 camo blurb shows on this thread, both are fascinating reads


Duck egg green .. or.. - Page 3 (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?89848-Duck-egg-green-or/page3)

Theory of Aircraft Camouflage (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?86195-Theory-of-Aircraft-Camouflage)



..

[diginagain]

Grey camouflage schemes work very well at ranges beyond around 3km, when viewed through optical systems.


How that helps when they are FOBing forward on Salisbury Plain ...
While we spend a great deal of time practicing on SPTA, we're not planning on doing too much actual fighting there.

[tonker]

Use half Blackhawk, after all that's what it is. Junk

[Martin the Martian]

If I recall correctly, the high altitude scheme of medium sea grey with PRU blue undersides was developed for the high altitude Spitfires (Mks. VI and VII) from 1942. It was adopted for high altitude PR aircraft post war.

[Charlie Time]

Easy to say of course, but on what basis?
(i.e. How and why did the Army get lumbered with the two-tone grey?)

It wasn't a case of getting lumbered - it was based on dstl analysis and formal approval by the MoD Camouflage Working Group.

[comedyjock]

It wasn't a case of getting lumbered - it was based on dstl analysis and formal approval by the MoD Camouflage Working Group.

Who saw that coming?

[NutLoose]

If I recall correctly, the high altitude scheme of medium sea grey with PRU blue undersides was developed for the high altitude Spitfires (Mks. VI and VII) from 1942. It was adopted for high altitude PR aircraft post war.

If you look at the links I posted Martin, you will see the 1943 manual someone has scanned for the paint schemes.

[Dan Gerous]

I can't see how this is an effective camo scheme as it stands out, and as this is also a recce asset, the mounting of the optical sensors low on the airframe as opposed to mast or roof mounted, is a bit strange. On the other hand, it looks nice in piccys.


Seen at Otterburn last week.


http://i58.tinypic.com/33usemw.jpg


http://i60.tinypic.com/20rmohs.jpg


http://i59.tinypic.com/vreja8.jpg

[tonker]

Would look much nicer on 150 Blackhawks that can actually do the job:ugh:

[Rotate too late]

Seconded......

[HEDP]

There is no point having something to draw the fire away from the proper battle winning kit if the enemy cannot see it in the first place.....

[Kitbag]

Would look much nicer on 150 Blackhawks that can actually do the jobOn paper it looks like both types have similar performance/capability, arguably Lynx does better in the number of troops it carries. So, why is Blackhawk better?

[Martin the Martian]

:ok: Many thanks, NutLoose, and if you can get hold of a copy of Britain Alone: The camouflage and markings of British military aircraft June 1940-December 1941 by Paul Lucas it's well worth a read regarding the development of the Day Fighter Scheme.

[Davef68]

I can't see how this is an effective camo scheme as it stands out, and as this is also a recce asset, the mounting of the optical sensors low on the airframe as opposed to mast or roof mounted, is a bit strange. .



Depends on where your operational environment is going to be and what your threat is. If your threat is fighters flying at a higher level, then a grey scheme over a green background is not good. However, if your intending that the aircraft is operated at a higher alltitude and the threat comes from ground based opponents, then a grey scheme is better.

[MOSTAFA]

Kitbag - that's simple one is made by a manufacturer that's never built a successful helicopter and the other really is capable of carrying 8+ with their kit. Not sure what 'on paper' you are reading.

[Kitbag]

MOSTAFA, I'll grant mine was a very 'Top Trumps' comparison, hence the rider 'on paper', the Sikorsky has by nature of ts home country a vast manufacturing base. I find your primary reason rather trite, though.
What does the SH-60, in your opinion, actually do better than Wildcat?

[MOSTAFA]

Well you can swing a cat in the back:ugh: oh and the wipers work! The other stuff the fielding pilots tell me is certainly not for here.

My trite'ness, as you like to call it; incidentally, not a word I'd use to explain my total lack of confidence, might have something to do with several thousand hours of the other manufacturers very best and wishing all those years we'd bought the Blackhawks instead. It's that simple really.

[diginagain]

What does the SH-60, in your opinion, actually do better than Wildcat?Not that it matters, given that neither Service had a choice in the selection-process.

[tmmorris]

If I recall correctly, the high altitude scheme of medium sea grey with PRU blue undersides was developed for the high altitude Spitfires (Mks. VI and VII) from 1942. It was adopted for high altitude PR aircraft post war.

So why's the gate guardian at Benson all over PRU blue? Was that an earlier scheme?

[Rotate too late]

Diginagain, absolutely! I'm sure you can remember the Dannett interview telling of the conversation between Torpy and himself, that comes across as two bickering children. Hence, negative to Blackhawk.....oh well

[diginagain]

I'm sure you can remember the Dannett interview telling of the conversation between Torpy and himself, that comes across as two bickering children. Indeed I do!

[Martin the Martian]

So why's the gate guardian at Benson all over PRU blue? Was that an earlier scheme?

The Benson Spit (or at least the plastic replica that sits there now) represents a PR variant, and overall PRU blue was used for PR throughout the war and for a number of years afterwards. The Mks. VI and VII were high altitude fighters, and their colour scheme was specified by Fighter Command. Early Vampires and Hornets were the last fighters to use the scheme in about 1947-48. Interestingly, in the early 1950s high altitude PR aircraft were repainted with the medium sea grey on the upper surfaces as well, and I think the Meteor PR. 10 was the last type to use it. The final Spitfires at THUM Flight retained overall PRU blue.

[tonker]

The Wildcat cannot do high, high and heavy.

We could have bought three times as many Blackhawks for the same price, ten years ago. ie when we were at war and young lads were dying for suitable medivac.

[diginagain]

We could have bought three times as many Blackhawks for the same price, ten years ago. ie when we were at war and young lads were dying for suitable medivac.We could have bought any number of them 30 years ago, but didn't. Westland offered to build them under license.

If we'd bought UH-60 off the shelf 10 years ago, how long would it have taken to field them?

[TBM-Legend]

Speaking of appropriate camo, the RAN operate their MRH90 Taipans in Army colours! Legend has it that it was to save money and have a versatile fleet to draw from EXCEPT that the Navy aircraft have numerous mods for ops at sea that the standard Army issue doesn't. I would hardly think that paint should be the equaliser...

The USMC doesn't seem to mind combat grey for all seasons and reasons and works effectively..

[Davef68]

Most Navy pilots I've spoken to speak highly of the Lynx. Not spoken to any about Wildcat yet.

[Rotate too late]

Lynx.....best naval helicopter the army ever had. Truth be told, it doesn't really matter what colour it is, EO spectrum will pick it up before the tiny part that is the mk1 eyeball does....hopefully the enemy will be so busy trying to work out what the Fcuk its for, it'll be able to slip away!

[diginagain]

"The second-finest small-ship, anti-submarine helicopter ever fielded by the British Army" for the Scout Generation. ;)

[diginagain]

Most Navy pilots I've spoken to speak highly of the Lynx. Not spoken to any about Wildcat yet.From what I'm hearing it's going through the usual snags one might expect at this stage of the programme. Disappointing, but unsurprising.

[Tourist]

Kitbag - that's simple one is made by a manufacturer that's never built a successful helicopter and the other really is capable of carrying 8+ with their kit. Not sure what 'on paper' you are reading.

That's a very army centric view of course.

Westlands have in fact made some world beating helicopters, the Lynx being an obvious one. The Lynx is and has easily been the finest small ships helicopter for decades. That is why so many foreign governments buy it for that role.

Unfortunately they then keep managing to persuade the government that the Army should buy a version of the helicopter that is crap for the army role.

[Martin the Martian]

If we'd bought UH-60 off the shelf 10 years ago, how long would it have taken to field them?

Sweden requested 15 off the shelf UH-60Ms via the US Foreign Military Sales programme in September 2010, formally ordering them the following May. The first was delivered in January 2012, though they did not deploy them to Afghanistan until March 2013.

[diginagain]

Sweden requested 15 off the shelf UH-60Ms via the US Foreign Military Sales programme in September 2010, formally ordering them the following May. The first was delivered in January 2012, though they did not deploy them to Afghanistan until March 2013.Not a bad effort from the Swedes. I wonder how we ie the UK, would fair?

[tonker]

The Wildcat cost us 12 million pounds an airframe, the Blackhawk is 8 million.

According to one the Wildcats test pilots I flew with for 9 months, it wasn't a patch on the Blackhawk.

[NutLoose]

Ever remember the recruitment poster they did when the original Lynx came out? it had half a chopped off oil can clamped on the exhaust as they used to scavenge oil out after shut down, I couldn't believe they used it as a recruitment picture...

[Tourist]

Why are you comparing the wildcat to a Blackhawk?

They are not even slightly similar.

I flew Seahawk which is a more relevant comparison, but they are very different in role, plus once you add all the toys they cost a lot more than 8 million.

Don't get me wrong, Seahawk/Blackhawk is great but it isn't a Lynx competitor.

Do a quick google.

One is a medium size transport helicopter that you can add shooty bits to.
The other is a little naval toy shooty helicopter that you can stick some troops in.

Of course the Blackhawk is a better troop transporter.
I'd rather play amongst the trees in a wildcat though

[Rotate too late]

I'm sort of with you there tourist, I flew Lynx in Germany for a while, it was great.....problem was it was ****e at its job.....:ugh:

[diginagain]

I'm sort of with you there tourist, I flew Lynx in Germany for a while, it was great.....problem was it was ****e at its job....Made a cracking campervan, even the version with the Whirlwind oleos and tundra tyres.

[Tourist]

No, it's great at its job!:}

That job just doesn't happen to coincide with what the Army bought it for...

[Rotate too late]

:D he he, no argument here!

[Tourist]

We, the British, do have a habit of rubbishing everything we do.

The Lynx is still the fastest helicopter ever made. It was the first properly aerobatic helicopter.
I suspect strongly that it has sunk more submarines than any other helicopter, plus almost certainly more ships.

It has sold very well worldwide, which is usually a good way to judge.

To be fair, I believe all the other purchasers were Navy....

[Rotate too late]

Ok, for balance....Compton Webb make excellent berets.

[diginagain]

To be fair, I believe all the other purchasers were Navy....Not quite. The Qatari Police bought 3 AH1, but struggled with the concept of ACC Drive starts.

[MOSTAFA]

Tourist, did you ever meet Charly Zimmerman and his Bolkow whilst we were still anti-tanking in Scouts? Try a google or You tube him.

[MightyGem]

The Lynx is still the fastest helicopter ever made.
Not much relevance when the standard, non tweaked versions were VNE'd at 155kts(IIRC).

[O-P]

The F3 had a VNE of 750kts, a number that was routinely ignored by all (even the QFI's)!!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Made a cracking campervan, even the version with the Whirlwind oleos and tundra tyres.

Also the finest post and pizza delivery aircraft the MoD ever purchased.;)

[Tourist]

Not much relevance when the standard, non tweaked versions were VNE'd at 155kts(IIRC).

It is relevant in the same way that a Porsche that is limited to 155 is still a shatteringly fast car. It speaks to the basic design excellence.

MOSTAFA

Bolkows are very nice toys, as long as you don't want to roll left suddenly....

[MOSTAFA]

You've obviously not watched the plethora of videos tourist, there's plenty of left rolling going on in that Bolkow (or I missed your point entirely)? As for basic design excellence - I almost choked on my cornflakes! Have you forgotten not being able to go anywhere for more than a hour without a risbridger and the less said about doors falling off, windows forever cracking and the more serious issues the better, they are now only distant memories for me.

As for you comparison of exceeding Vne with a car, you are highly unlikely to cause any structural damage to the car and of course your car does not have very far to fall if and when bits fall off.

Can I suggest we digress no further, you have your opinion and I obviously have mine, lets agree to let everybody get back to the 'what colour it ends up and why,' of which; I truly couldn't give a tinkers cuss as long as it is safe for the occupants.

[Tourist]

MOSTAFA

The Bolkow is a bit famous for its ability to kill you when unable to recover from high right angles of bank.

I've never flown one myself, however some people who I have respect for tell me that it is not carefree handling. The guys you see on YouTube are very good to make it perform like that, and even then they sometimes mess up.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-9Mg7d4nQ

The Lynx however is easy for even hamfisted operators such as myself to fly. I've never been qualified on type, but I've flung it around sufficiently to be very impressed. I had it in attitudes I've very rarely seen inside the first 30 minutes.

I take your point about the risbridger.
I would argue that that is the detail rather than the basic design. As ever, Westlands has always been better at the big picture than the polish.

[Martin the Martian]

Did someone mention Lynx and camping?

https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/425379127280170379/

[MOSTAFA]

aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! if you think that has anything to do with the Bolkow other than the person thats pointing it then I'd suggest you are very wrong, (He's turning right by the way) you can take that from someone who has, now I'm off to watch the paint dry; which incidentally is what this is supposed to be about - PAINT.

Hamfisted operators FFS.

[Tourist]

BO105 fatal accident back in 2006(?) (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/321141-bo105-fatal-accident-back-2006-a.html)

Seems to me that some people think there is a known BO105 turn problem.....