Offshore operations - maximum flying hours

[Mark Six]

I'm curious as to the maximum daily flying hours permitted for pilots in offshore operations in various parts of the world, and more particularly the North Sea. My company allows a maximum of 9 hours per day. My non-pilot base manager sees nothing wrong with rostering pilots to fly up to 9 hours a day as "that's what you're allowed to do."

[finalchecksplease]

Google is your friend; just put CAA CAP 371 or EASA FTL in your search engine and you will find what you are looking for, simples :ok:

[Mark Six]

Thanks for that. I have had a look at CAP 371 and (depending on start time) it seems that 8 hours would be a "normal" daily limit. I assume individual companies can choose to impose a more restrictive limit (but why would they?).
I don't imagine 8 hours in an immersion suit in North Sea weather would be a lot of fun.

[Canuck Guy]

Probably beats 8 hours with no air conditioning near the equator lol.

[roundwego]

Remind your non pilot manager that 9 hours is a LIMIT not a target.

In The UK the 8 hours limit is prescribed in the Air Navigation Order and therefore becomes an offence if it is breached unless for reasons of safety or emergency.

Although there is a daily limit, there are also 3 day, 7 day and 28 day limits which effectively mean the average daily flying over a year cannot be more than about 3.5 hours per working day based on a 4/2 roster plus a couple of weeks holiday.

[evil7]

And there is the daily "working time" limit of 10h per day.

An unofficial calculation of the German CAA would be like this:

10h working time minus 15min "pre flight check" minus 30min "after last flight check" minus 5 min Start up (Block time) minus 5 min "shut down" (Block time ) would leave you with the maximum of 9h 05min flight time per day.

This time of 9h 05min would include the refuelling of the ship, so guess your realistic flight time per day.

[Gomer Pylot]

In the US, the limits are 8 hours/day if any flying is single pilot, 10 hours/day dual pilot, with a 14 hour duty day limit. Take it for what it's worth. I've flown jobs which approached those limits, day in and day out.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Gomer you Hero!

I've flown up to 8 hours and its knackering. 5-6 a working day on a full time job is just about right and tolerable.

There's always someone who kicks the arse out of it and wears it like a badge of honour. Acid test..........would you want you wife and kids behind Gomer doing 10 hours a day in a helicopter?

[malabo]

Too simplistic a question. There are many unconsidered variables that would be fodder in EASA-land for yet more regulation.

We can go 10 flying hours multi -crew, and if that's required the odd day to make it work then so be it. The next day won't have 10.

Are you living at home and driving to work each day -coming home after a long day to a cranky wife, broken hot water heater and rotten kids- not much rest to prepare for the next day. Or, are you equal time touring, 5star hotel, drop your underwear on the floor and the maid picks it up?

Is it a two hour straight run, no weather, to the rig on sheepskin seats, aircon and no suits? Or a day full of 10 min shuttles on pitching heaving decks?

Is the patronage obligated copilot trying to kill you every time he has the controls?

Any good chief pilot/mgr weighs all these factors to manage fatigue over a run period, no regulations required. Still, offshore is easy work compared to 1200 hrs/year of production/precision long lining, and lots of 10 hour+ days there, every day.

[newfieboy]

Yep my day often 10hrs precision/production longline in a 14hr duty day.....unprepared landing spots and rolling drums for fuel,in summer often 30 plus heat with every flying/biting/stinging bug you can imagine and no aircon. Living in a tent in a remote camp often in a swamp for 42 days straight. Or how about fires....low vis,hot, sweaty, multiple A/C in same airspace.In winter same same just -30 to -40. Gotta love utility work. Everyday different though!!......I'm currently living the dream swatting bugs,trying to stay cool and hydrated thinking of my crew change next week, cold beer and aircon. You offshore dudes got it easy!!!!

[Max Contingency]

My cat is so black that I call him 'Panther' :rolleyes:

[cyclic]

My cat is so black that I call him 'Panther'

Like and like again.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Newfieboy...........an even bigger hero. Where do you dream these stories up....I mean really. 10 hours flying and 14 hours duty. Who in hell would insure that!

The question, seeing as you long line utility heros missed it! Was about offshore flying. That's moving live things....humans. Not lumps of conrete and freight.

Wear your badges of honour for working sooooooo hard and leave the important stuff like moving humans, to the rest of us where at least some common sense still prevails.

Malabo......where exactly in EASA land can you fly 10 hours a day? Utter b*llocks but feel free to join the willy waving contest!

[whoknows idont]

Wow, this got out of hand (and interesting) fast... :ok:

[EMS R22]

The question, seeing as you long line utility heros missed it! Was about offshore flying. That's moving live things....humans. Not lumps of conrete and freight.

Maybe this should go in the Bus driving forum and Myself and Newfie can go do some real aviating......

[tottigol]

Mmmhhh, Newfieboy's beer must have come in early this time.:rolleyes:

Anyway, under Part.135, non scheduled operations, flight time is restricted to 8 hrs SP and 10 hrs MP in the last 24, if those are busted it becomes a complex affair to add mandatory rest time to the 10 hours already programmed.
If flying a heavy production job offshore GoM, it's not uncommon to top those 8 hours before the end of the day, requiring more than one pilot to complete the operation.
MP 10 flight hours days happen, not consistently, but depending on the contract to which the pilot is assigned they can be three or four times in a two weeks rotation.

[tistisnot]

http://www.eagleeyesactionstation.co.uk/ekmps/shops/eagleeyes/images/action-man-helicopter-pilot-eagle-eyes-hybrid-boxed-figure-1st-issue-in-box-now-with-eagle-eyes-sticker-[3]-4873-p.jpg

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Tistisnot ........priceless post!

EMS-R22........failed offshore pilot application I suspect!

[tistisnot]

But DB .... I is not 100% with you .... 5-6 hours a day! How cushy, let's all join this club!

Whereas in your area probably with multiple customers, the operator may wish to work the backside off of you because Commercial only costed it with 4.2 pilots per aircraft - so year in year out 8 hours a day is draining.

Other areas / contracts around the world may be one single customer for shorter periods and so a higher daily rate may be acceptable. Surely it is, as someone intimated, beholden upon the Ops Manager and Safety Man or equivalents to manage the fatigue risk and be .... open to frank and honest reporting between customer and operator.

I have yet to be convinced accidents / incidents are mainly with a contributory factor of fatigue? Boredom and complacency more likely.

[Nubian]

DB,

Cheer up buddy!
leave the important stuff like moving humans, to the rest of us where at least some common sense
Who's having high thoughts of himself? How big is your badge?? You should have at least 6 stripes on each shoulder... :cool::D
You guys have 2 pilots, autopilot, coffee outbound, coffee inbound, dispatch, loaders, re-fuelers and all sort of support to keep your ass safe in the air all those 5-6 hours of the day... Yet, you seem to complain about how hard life is in the North Sea. You have all my sympathy:rolleyes:

Without those worthless cowboy utility pilots (that didn't pass the offshore pilot-selection), there would be a lot less infrastructure around that you take for granted. A thought for the next time you go skiing in the Alps or when you charge your smartphone.
Your condescending know-it-all tone, just comes across as ignorant and grumpy. You must be a real treat to share cockpit with. :rolleyes:

Tottigol,
As for Newfie, being based in Canada and not the GOM, the FAR 135 would therefore not apply.
Single pilot VFR nonscheduled ops in Canada, duty is limited 14hrs in 24 hrs, 60 Flighthours in 7 days.

[R.OCKAPE]

Without those worthless cowboy utility pilots (that didn't pass the offshore pilot-selection),

Don't think you would find many who would prefer Offshore IFR

..sitting back monitoring systems.

DB
have you even seen a line much less flown one ?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Yes I flown a line, HEMS POLICE CHARTER MIL SAR like many other posters on pprune and i have endless respect for utility pilots..........but the original Q was about offshore ops.

I have a clear view of what is safe and acceptable and some of the limits claimed here cannot be considered in those terms.

I never said we work overly hard offshore. The rules are there to protect the pax and of course that in turn protects the crew.

I hope, give the "cushy" life I have now that my cockpit manner reflects the conditions I enjoy.

As for the "six" stripes, my sloping shoulders could not possibly accommodate that many but I do like badges though!

Maybe I just get my coat...........

Good sparring with you utility boys and stay safe!

[Devil 49]

Double Bogey said:
Newfieboy........... (...)I mean really. 10 hours flying and 14 hours duty. Who in hell would insure that!

A lot of operations self insure.

The question, seeing as you long line utility heros missed it! Was about offshore flying. That's moving live things....humans. Not lumps of conrete and freight.

Offshore does external loads as well, although not typically long line.
Eight hours a day single pilot isn't/wasn't unusual, I'd do it a couple times a month. The fatigue gets to the chronic stage with only 10 hours rest and 120 hours of flying in 30 days...

[Gomer Pylot]

How could it not be insurable, when it's within the legal limits? Ten hours flight time, in 14 hours multicrew, is entirely legal, at least under FAA Part 135. It's not an everyday thing, but not uncommon on some jobs. Oil companies cut corners at every opportunity, and will almost always use the lowest number of aircraft possible. Helicopter operators don't want to hire any more pilots than absolutely necessary. I'm not sure I would want to ride in the back seat with a crew that was into its tenth hour of flight time that day, but the only other choice is quitting. I didn't like doing it, but the only other choice was quitting. Losing one's job is serious business. Obviously I should have crossed over the pond and found a cushy job in the North Sea, where I wouldn't have had to fly so much. I've also hit the 8 hour limit many times single pilot, and the 14 hour duty day was very common, going from sunup to sundown in the summer, not including preflight and postflight. It's lift the skids as the sun starts to peek above the water, and don't quit until it's gone. Every day. Things have probably changed by now, but the bottomfeeder operators still try to push things, I'm certain. And there are lots of bottomfeeder oil companies out there.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I left off-shore in 1999 when we were all knocking hard on the rolling 800 hours in 365 days. Double Bogeys 5-6 hours per day was the norm then, but in the early 1990's I did an overseas contract, local registered aircraft, local rules,local licenses, when I logged 740 hours in six months. That was in S61s (no aircon, (well less than a thousand miles north of the equator) concrete seats, no active headsets and pretty much no idea of performance or any form of local legal protection and some really nice local guys in the left seat. When our team got back the company had to leave us off the roster for a couple of months on full pay to get us back legal under home rules.

Now I average 300-350 per year, but it feels far more tiring (although I am a lot older) flying SPIFR corporate around northern Europe and the UK. There is very little advance notice of what a task will be and a lot of variables in the tasking, that takes a lot of the drudgery of off-shore away and it was the drudgery of 5-6 hours (on a rare occasion 8 hours) in an immersion suit that I found most fatiguing.

A lot of ops personnel don't realise that off-shore the need to be right at the very top of your game comes on departure and arrival and at any time you are shuttling. That sudden change from relaxed, proffesional cockpit in the cruise to high levels of concentration in busy airspace with weather at minima was the point of a study into pilot fatigue many years ago and is one of the reasons why UK FTLs are as stringent as they are, also while bean counters don't understand flying, crewing will always be at bare minimum, and the bean counters will continue to have a huge impact on an area they don't understand.

As an aside the company I worked for off-shore brought in some management consultants. They were priceless, one asked why we flew twins when surely singles were more economical, another came to me one day after I had flown two trips to the Fulmar in a 332 and stated that a S61 flight was needed, there were no 61 pilots available, but as I was 61 rated I should fly it (I hadn't sat in one for three years) This was a year into their management study and input, he proved in that year he had learned the square root of sod all.

SND