Squadron Silver

[mopardave]

I was asking my dad (ex Green Howards) the other day, what happens to all the regimental silver when a regiment (and its history) is thrown in the bin! He couldn't answer....so, what happens when a squadron is stood down, disbanded etc? There must be lots of squadron "valuables".....I'm just curious as to what happens to it all.
MD:ok:

[thing]

I think it goes to the central messing fund. It used to be at Wroughton but being as Wroughton is no more (I travelled there for a station volleyball match, seems like yesterday) I haven't a clue where it might be. When squadron numbers are reactivated for reserve reasons I think they dust it off and reissue it. The Navy have a similar deal where their silver finishes up somewhere in Portsmouth which is not too heavily advertised for obvious reasons.

[mopardave]

but there must be stacks of this stuff.......let's face it, the numbers of squadrons/regiments that have been disbanded is, sadly, staggering!!!!!! No doubt at some point the MOD bean counters will just sell it off!!!!!!
MD

[thing]

Yeah, probably. I don't know who actually owns stuff like this. I'm a bit of a student of 18th and 19th C military history and a lot of regimental silver was either donated by individuals or captured from the enemy. ( A PC way of saying The French). So it doesn't belong to HMG. Although I'm sure HMG would flog it never the less.

[Danny42C]

So the nice little cut-glass and silver inkstand I presented to RAF Thornaby Officer's Mess in November '54 has vanished into some huge, amorphous store, to be flogged off to Bring Down the Deficit ?

As the tray is engraved with my name and the date, I expect it to be returned to me (if asked, PPRuNe knows how to put them in touch with me).

Otherwise, I expect compensation for the (inflation adjusted) fiver it cost me (say £60) plus an element for my hurt feelings.

I will gladly stand aside if they would contribute this sum to the RAF Benevolent Fund.

"Fat chance", you say. Well, I can dream, can't I ?

PS: And what happened to the magnificent silver cup (it put the FA Cup in the shade), donated to 20 Sqn by their old Indian Canteen Contractor as a farewell gift (after he'd robbed them blind for about 20 years out there - and he would have done the catering for all the Messes).

Even if it was sold for silver weight alone, it would amount to something, for it needed two men to carry it.

[newt]

When in a spot of bother with my Staish, I was sent to a North Norfolk base as deputy OC GD Flt! My first job was to audit the station silver! Off I go to the officers mess armed with the relevant list! When the silver cabinet was checked there were several pieces missing! " They have been lent to the Sgts mess" I am told. So off I go to the Sgts mess. No sign of the missing pieces and several pieces listed as being held by the Sgts mess are also missing!

Well off I go SHQ to report my findings! Next day I am ordered to Group HQ for a bollocking and reposting to Scotland! So I never found out what happened to the silver audit! I suspect most of it was never found and have since heard other stories about missing silver! :ok:

[Wensleydale]

I have heard that some old silver has occasionally been melted down and "recycled" to make new presentation/commemoration pieces.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Silver used to be stored at RAF Quedgeley (you couldn't make that name up!) but Quedgeley closed in 1995. (Not sure if Wroughton pre-dated Quedgeley? Or vice versa) Tracking down what must be a small mountain of old Mess silver would make for an interesting bit of detective work for someone with a few days to spare.

To my mind, it should all be on display somewhere rather than be flogged off. As the RN is fond of reminding us, the RAF is light on traditions and I shudder at the thought of squadron silver being shovelled into a furnace somewhere for the sake of a few quid.

[dctyke]

Check out eBay, bits n bobs turn up regularly. If they did a real audit I suspect the RAFP would have a massive investigation on their hands.

[BEagle]

When I served on Suffolk's phinest phighter squadron, one of our ploys was to take over as many Mess Committee posts as we could, so that we had the majority voice on the committee....

So I was 'invited' to be the Silver Member. Off to the storeroom with the Property Book and the outgoing 'volunteer' to do an audit...:uhoh:

It was chaos! There were more items than the book had recorded, including models of aeroplanes which neither we nor the Crows had ever flown. Mysterious cups, for example from the Wireless Sports Club from RAF Bircham Newton, weren't registered and other items which were, simply weren't there. So I refused point blank to take over the job until the outgoing 'volunteer' had sorted things out.

That was the last I ever heard of it, so I guess the job was palmed off onto someone else.

Of course the pongoes have loads of regimental plunder, compared with the RAF. Apart from the occasional 'silver auction', all surplus RAF silver used to go to RAF Quedgeley for storage. But since Quedgeley closed 20 years ago, lord knows where the silver is now.

Insurance costs also became astronomic, so most mess silver was locked away rather being left in display cabinets, as was once the case.

When I arrived at one station in the early '80s, I was struggling through the corridors with my luggage when a grumpy old so-and-so appeared from a doorway clutching a silver model aeroplane. "What's that!", he grunted as he thrust it under my nose. "Err, I think it's a Whitley, sir", I replied. He just scowled and turned away. Rather rude, I thought - then later in the bar someone told me that he was a long-time passed-over for promotion Flt Lt and was rather bitter and twisted about the fact. Being relatively young and naïve, I hadn't realised that anyone so seemingly ancient could still be a Flt Lt, hence my 'sir' had probably quite irritated him :sad:

[Whenurhappy]

I've been trying to get hold of SO2 Heritage at Air Command (High Wycombe) for a while. This person looks after such items- I was hoping to draw some for representational purposes in my overseas post (there, I've inherited and signed for, an eclectic selection of RN silverware including a silver Dreadnought. I don't know where RAF items are stored, last I heard about it, it was at Stafford.

When I'm next back, I might pop up to High Wycombe and try and track down this person; I have a feeling that this post is gapped.

[Army Mover]

When our Mess closed in Germany; anything owned by the MOD was returned (to Quedgeley); we then went to a lot of trouble to track down whoever donated any item and offered to return it to them or their family; those items that people didn't want returned were sold off in a Mess Auction and the money given to Forces charities. What was left was offered to our Corps Central Mess; the remainder (not much really) of non-public furniture etc ended up in the auction, then the Mess Staff helped themselves (with our blessing).

[ian16th]

One piece that I would love to know the home of, is the companion of this:
http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/UK%20-%20Oz%20trophy.jpg?t=1434184601

The picture shows Sir Alan Cobham presenting a trophy to the OC of 617, Wing Co. Bastard. It commemorated the 1st non-stop flight from the UK to Australia in 1961.

A few days later, Sir Alan presented the companion piece to 214 Sqdn, who as he said, 'Did all the work'!

This was at a far less formal occasion, attended by all the Sqdn personnel, aircrew and ground crew, in working blue.

That night we had a tremendous thrash in the Families Club at Marham and that was the last time I saw the trophy.

The picture is from the book 'In Cobhams' Company', a must have, for anyone interested in the history of AAR.
http://http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/UK%20-%20Oz%20trophy.jpg?t=1434184601

[MPN11]

Ah, the Silver Store! As Mess Sec at Watton in the early 70s, the PMC (Hi, Jock, if you're reading this) and I did a seriously deep look at whet we were holding, as the Insurance costs for a very small Mess [just Eastern Radar, maybe 35 officers?] were significant.

Oh, the stuff we found! It included, for some strange reason, 2 large pewter plates of considerable vintage [17th c IIRC]. Anyway, various correspondence ensued. There was some interesting stuff, battered stuff, and assorted cr@p - much of it associated with long-defunct sqns. After appropriate staffing, some went to Quedgely, a coupe of items to the RAF Museum, and we were authorised to auction much of the rest to Mess members for the benefit of Mess funds.

Apart from the ancient pewter plates, a couple of items stick in my memory:
* A solid silver tankard marking the 100th enemy aircraft shot down by 100 Gp aircraft, engraved with the names of all the crew on that particular mission ... that went to the RAF Museum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._100_Group_RAF

* A collection of 9 or so 1/2 pint silver tankards, all presented to a Hunter sqn by departing members ... we kept those behind the Bar, to be used by ladies who drank beer [in small quantities ;) ]


Sadly I got nothing from the auction, but the PMC got a 2 pint [!] tankard which had been presented to 245 Sqn by Sgt D J Rhodes. He sent me a picture of it last year ;)

[mopardave]

Gents......I'm shocked! Some of these items will be of huge historical value.....and, no doubt considerable monetary value. An ancient regiment such as my dads, the Green Howards, must have had enormous amounts! These items, in many cases, must represent historical events in the life of a squadron or regiment!! I could have understood them being displayed somewhere central for future generations......this is actually very sad!
MD:ugh:

(or maybe I'm just taking it all a little too seriously?)

[Xercules]

When my son left school and before going to University, he did a one year "gap" commission in the Army with the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment, already an amalgamation of 3 county regiments. Since then and further amalgamations time has moved on. The Glosters have gone their own way but the B & W parts have a joint association HQ(?) and museum in Salisbury. The same old problem seems to have occurred with too much silver and either insufficient space to store or display or the costs are excessive. Anyway, their solution was to offer it to the families of those who had donated (if appropriate and traceable) and then to offer it first of all to the Regimental Family under sealed bids. My son came under that last heading and is now the proud owner of several magnificent items. There is to be a second disposal tranche as well and anything not want by the "family" will go into public auction and all proceeds go into the Regimental Charity. We should do exactly the same with redundant Air Force memorabilia.

[Tankertrashnav]

the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment, already an amalgamation of 3 county regiments.

Generally known as "The M4 Rangers"!

a lot of regimental silver was either donated by individuals or captured from the enemy. ( A PC way of saying The French).

Not always the French. At one time the Royal Welsh Fusiliers were in possession of a quantity of solid gold plates, etc, which the regiment "liberated" from the Chinese imperial palace during the Relief of Peking after the siege of the legations there during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900. Wonder what happened to that?

[Army Mover]

As a guest to the Sgts Mess of the Queens Own Highlanders, I was amazed at the amount of stunning historic silver pieces on display on a table in Mess foyer. Had that been my Mess, they would have been locked in a safe and only brought out for special occasions; when I asked my host about the security of these items, he told me that they had a general policy that the Mess silver should be on display to the members. I wonder what happened to it all when they amalgamated with the Gordon's; they must have had a similar stash?

[ian16th]

Mopardave

Surely the Green Howards have a home for their silver at Richmond in the regimental museum?

Isn't the name still living in some form as a battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment?

[ATR43]

I have often thought about this myself and thought - like sidevalve - a display of Squadron silverware would make temporary and interesting exhibition at Hendon and/or Cosford??


Any thoughts on that??

[mopardave]

ian........you are quite right about the museum in Richmond. My dad took me a few years ago......what a stunning tribute to the GH's. My dad thought all the silver might end up there......I'm sure he'll be visiting again soon. Alas, I believe the Green Howards, who became part of the Yorkshire Regiment, no longer exist in any form......I'm reliably informed it was political and that because a more junior" regiment was on ops in Afghanistan at the time, it was deemed more politically expedient to "spare" the more junior regiment and sacrifice the GH's as they were not on ops at the time. Normal protocol would have been to retain the GH's. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not in any way making a judgement on that decision. I'm happy to be corrected.
Best
MD:)

[MPN11]

Had that been my Mess, they would have been locked in a safe and only brought out for special occasions; when I asked my host about the security of these items, he told me that they had a general policy that the Mess silver should be on display to the members.

A magnificent Table Centrepiece, some 3 ft long and 2 ft high, was displayed in a glass case in the Offices Mess at the RAF Staff College, Bracknell. A magnificent item, with a hilltop surmounted by a Gatling Gun and its crew with fired cases all over the ground ... and commemorating some Boer War event/unit.

It was stolen one night, presumably to melt down. :sad:

Must have been at leat a 2-man lift - it was huge.

[thing]

At one time the Royal Welsh Fusiliers were in possession of a quantity of solid gold plates, etc, which the regiment "liberated" from the Chinese imperial palace during the Relief of Peking after the siege of the legations there during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900. Wonder what happened to that?

There was also the burning of the Summer Palace by Elgin after the Taiping rebellion in the 1860's. It was sacked by Brit and French forces and the treasure they either looted or destroyed was reckoned to be priceless, not just in monetary terms but culturally. One of the greatest acts of vandalism in world history. Wonder what happened to that haul? I know that just one shoe belonging to the Chinese empress was sold for £25,000. Which was a fair amount in those days.

There were around 15 buildings left standing at the end which I believe were the buildings that were finished off in the Boxer Rebellion you mention.

[Basil]

ian16th,
That's taken me back a few years. Group Captain Lawrence ‘George’ Bastard, A.F.C., D.F.C. was my station commander at Cottesmore about '69/'70.

Distinguished gentleman and nice guy.

[pzu]

Despite my proximity to Richmond, haven't been to the Green Howards Museum since it reopened recently after a major refurbishment/upgrade which by all accounts has been done to the highest standards and per Trip Advisor is even 'dog friendly'!!!

The Green Howards Museum (http://greenhowards.org.uk)

Green Howards Museum Reviews - Richmond, North Yorkshire Attractions - TripAdvisor (http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g504011-d3687012-Reviews-Green_Howards_Museum-Richmond_North_Yorkshire_England.html)

Also when in Richmond another suitable spot is Richmond Station and its Restaurant

Seasons Restaurant > Locations > Richmond (http://www.restaurant-seasons.co.uk/Locations/Richmond.aspx)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[ian16th]

Basil

Group Captain Lawrence ‘George’ Bastard, A.F.C., D.F.C.Do you know what he got his AFC for?

If it was for his UK to Oz flight, that was 2 AFC's I helped earn :*

[ian16th]

Alas, I believe the Green Howards, who became part of the Yorkshire Regiment, no longer exist in any form.

Sorry to hear that.

My BiL, who did his 22 with them, demobbed in 66, is still receiving his pension from someone :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

I know several Bomber Command trophies 'disappeared' from the Mess and were eventually relocated in the AOCinC' s suite in the HQ.

Echoing others, I was house member at Wittering and started an inventory of the silver. First thing I discovered was a lack of shelving in the store. I took my Swiss Army Pen knife !and dismantled a section of shelving from the drying room. Staff were horrified but no one else noticed and we had 50% more shelf space

As the Mess was now home to the Harrier they had stashed a couple of large oil paintings of a Victor and Valiant to a store room. When it was pointed out they were Shepherd's valued 40 years ago at a conservative £5000 they were brought put again.

As said, insurance is a significant factor.

[Wander00]

ISTR that during my time running the "Non Public" desk at Command Accounts at Brampton we introduced the concept of "selective insurance". Essentially, if say a "Shepherd" was damaged or stolen, would it be replaced with an item of equivalent value? We agreed with the major non-public insurers that they would not apply"averaging" in the event of a claim, and we reduced the cost of insurance, which was becoming an increasing burden on messes and PSI funds.

[huge72]

In 2005 I was responsible for storing all 10 Squadron's memorabilia and silver when the Squadron disbanded. After everything was packed and recorded in the 540, I delivered the memorabilia to the RAF Museum store and the silver went into the Silver Depository both of which are on different sites at Stafford. I retired in 2010 but I expect they were still there when the Squadron reformed with the Voyager, at least nobody has ever called me up to say '' Who signed for it? We can't find it! Nobody knows anything about it'' :=

[Tankertrashnav]

mopardave - I'm slightly confused by your post about the 2004 amalgamations. In fact that was the year when the last of the old county regiments were finally amalgamated - none was spared in spite of vociferous campaigning to keep those few, The Green Howards among them, which had escaped the previous batches of amalgamations in 1958 and 1968.

The Green Howards joined the Prince of Wales' Own Regiment of Yorkshire and the Duke of Wellington's Regiment (West Riding) and became the 2nd battalion of the new Yorkshire Regiment.

The temptation to name the new regiment the Prince of Wales's Green Wellingtons was resisted, for some reason!

[Haraka]

Wander 00
As a denizen of that embarrassing airless cuckoo of a building in one corner of your Brampton plot many years ago, I picked up the secondary duty of "Officer i/c Sergeants Mess".
Having just taken over, I was then presented ( with some alacrity) a discrepancy report via "Sport Command" concerning "Missing Sgt's Mess Silver" pointing out that as "Officer i/c Sgts' Mess" I was now therefore accountable.
My written response would not have filled one side of the back of a picture postcard.

Nothing further heard.

[Pontius Navigator]

Huge72, when my unit disbanded in . 2010 I was referred to the RAF Museum Reserve Collection at Stafford. I think they were an encroachment on the RAF site.

I handed over our artefacts and me and Mrs PN were given a guided tour. We saw all the BBMF Spitfire wings, the original ones, Bomber Harris's desk, very simple, and Herman Goering' s, grotesque.

We were then shown the uniform store and a No 1 Uniform and its name tag 'The King'. It had been converted from the 4 button style to 3 button. The jacket had been cut under the belt and the skirt portion raised.

While there our terrier carried out a rodent inspection. When we left we were recommended to try a pub in Salt for lunch. Superb, didn't want to drive home as I could have enjoyed a nap.

[sharpend]

Danny, worse than that. When we reformed 151(F) we asked for the old Sqn silver and was told it had been melted down! Tragic really, given that past members had paid good money for it.

[Wander00]

Haraka - I guess not in my time, I would have remembered, I am sure. Somehow I avoided ever doing a CA Inspection at Brampton. I do recall a rumour that after the fire the number of swords so lost exceeded the officer establishment by a fair percentage.

[huge72]

PN You are quite correct. I'm not sure of the date it happened but the RAFM now has ownership of all Squadron properties once a Squadron disbands. This came about as so many times, property went ''missing'' in between disbandment and reformation and it was realised that so much of the RAF's history was lost with these items. If a Squadron reforms they can the apply for the memorabilia to be reissued but it will always remain the property of the Museum. I went to Stafford on a couple of visits and found the staff very helpful and the items that they store fascinating and also a little sad that so much exists that it can never be displayed as there simple isn't enough museum space to put it all on display.

[mopardave]

mopardave - I'm slightly confused by your post about the 2004 amalgamations. In fact that was the year when the last of the old county regiments were finally amalgamated - none was spared in spite of vociferous campaigning to keep those few, The Green Howards among them, which had escaped the previous batches of amalgamations in 1958 and 1968.

The Green Howards joined the Prince of Wales' Own Regiment of Yorkshire and the Duke of Wellington's Regiment (West Riding) and became the 2nd battalion of the new Yorkshire Regiment.

The temptation to name the new regiment the Prince of Wales's Green Wellingtons was resisted, for some reason!

TTN, I'm not referring to the 2004 amalgamation......the Green Howards did become part of the Yorkshire regiment but they were disbanded completely in 2012.
MD

[Haraka]

I do recall a rumour that after the fire the number of swords so lost exceeded the officer establishment by a fair percentage.

Obviously not properly included on what went down with the "Atlantic Conveyor".

[Wensleydale]

On the subject of amalgamations....


I did hear that at one stage, the RAF Regiment was to merge with the Royal Irish Fusiliers, but this fell through when the name of "RIF RAF" was mentioned.

[NRU74]

I'm sure there are quite a few of us who can remember a certain Vulcan AEO who ....erm... 'disposed' of a certain amount of the mess silver.
He did, however, subsequently receive his comeuppance !

[Fareastdriver]

When the RAF contracted after the 2nd World War surplus squadron's silver was held at RAF Mildenhall. One day a couple of three-tonners arrives, movement orders shown to the guardroom and off a fair quantity of it went. The three-tonners, borrowed from a war surplus auction site were found next day abandoned by the side of a road.

The silver wasn't.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the clarification mopardave - now that you've put the date in it's a lot clearer.

I understand that there is or was a proposal for the Green Howards to become B company of the 4th Battalion, Yorkshire Regiment to ensure survival of the name, but this emphasises the fact that the old county regiment system which was formalised in 1881 is dead and gone. It's a sign of how small the army has become that regiments which in peacetime consisted of two regular and two volunteer battalions (and far more in wartime) are now reduced to company strength in some cases :(

[Basil]

ian16th,
His AFC was Gazetted 1st Jan 1957 so too early for the 20-21 Jun 1961 first non-stop UK - Australia flight.

[backTOfront]

Around 2009/2010 there was an RAF wide silver, painting and valuable items audit. All stations and units had to photograph and detail what items they had, approximate value, if they were insured, and where possible who had donated said item.

I had to do one for the Sqn I was on at the time. The oddest find was a small silver cup with "WAAF Block Swimming Champions" engraved on it. How we came about it I'm sure would make an interesting story :}

I did hear that in the basement, at a certain large training estate in Lincolnshire, they found a Faberge Egg that was gifted to the RAF when it was created in 1918!

[teeteringhead]

A magnificent Table Centrepiece, some 3 ft long and 2 ft high, was displayed in a glass case in the Offices Mess at the RAF Staff College, Bracknell. That Staff College piece had been a gift from a (Southern) Irish Regiment who were disbanded at independance - 1920?

There was a suitable plaque on it IIRC, saying something like "From a Dying Regiment to a Newborn Service" or similar.

But stolen silver always gets melted down - indeed, one can only insure (99% of the time) for its "bullion value". So sad.

And of course the Bracknell theft pre-dated "security" as we now understand it. Like the blokes who used to nick TVs from Messes, armed with a white van, a brown dustcoat and a clipboard, using the password:

"Which of these TVs are on the blink?" ..... cos they all were ......

[Whenurhappy]

I wince every time I visit messes these days - the table silver and coffee pots etc typically have been 'polished' with Brillo pads to remove the tarnish; no coincidence that these tend to be contracted-out messes. I just shudder to think the damage that is being inflicted on trophies by well meaning, but utterly insert and unsupervised staff.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTH, quite, Saturday afternoon sports, repairman came in to exchange old rental TV for new model. The potatoes remained supping their beer for some time until penny dropped.

[David Thompson]

So the nice little cut-glass and silver inkstand I presented to RAF Thornaby Officer's Mess in November '54 has vanished into some huge, amorphous store, to be flogged off to Bring Down the Deficit ?

When 608 disbanded their Standard was laid up in York Minster but the squadron silver and glassware was presented to Middlesbrough Borough Council for safe keeping in the event of 608 being reformed at any future date and it remains on display inside Middlesbrough Town Hall .
I have seen the 608 collection and will check my photographs for an inkstand inscribed as presented by Danny42C ! Should you wish to be reacquainted with said donation please PM me and I will see what can be arranged ?

[Valiantone]

Aside from Sqn silverware what about Sqn photoalbums...


I remember seeing some old ones that were supposedly rescued from a skip by a certain person. But that story was in mentioned 2001-2003.


V1

[Danny42C]

David Thompson,

I'm very grateful for the information! But it may be a false hope. I presented the inkstand to the Officer's Mess of RAF Thornaby (the old Thornaby Hall), not even to my own unit (3608 FCU), still less to 608 Squadron, of which I was not a member (although they let me fly their aircraft from time to time).

But it may be that it got bundled up with 608's silver and the Town Hall has got the lot. I shall ask my daughter to go and have a look, and will report progress on open Post on this Thread in due course.

With renewed thanks,

Danny42C.

[just another jocky]

Doesn't unwanted/needed silver go to store in Doddington? I think it's called that. :confused:

[ian16th]

silver and glassware was presented to Middlesbrough Borough Council for safe keepingThere have of course been a multitude of changes of the style local government in that part of the UK. Middlesbrough has been a County Borough, a part of Teesside County Council and the erstwhile County of Cleveland and is currently the Unitary Borough of Middlesbrough.

So tracing the silver might be more difficult than imagined.

I'll be interested in the findings of any search.

[Wensleydale]

I think that much depends upon the Sqn CO and his (her) attitude to history. I once rescued a certain Sqn's wartime F540 from the "to throw away" pile - it was returned to the Sqn when a more interested CO took over! (Also for throwing was a print signed by the RAF's first VC in WW1 - that was also rescued).

[Pontius Navigator]

The Archives at Northolt will take line books and photo albums but, as Wensleydale says, it depends on the person responsible having any connection with history.

I still regret destroying secret maps and plans from WW2 when I were a young lad and general awareness of security was low, pre Bomber Command museum at Hendon. Security, after a number of serious breaches was being ramped up post Radcliffe and we were actively encouraged to reduce our holdings of secrets as there was insufficient proper security furniture to secure what we needed let alone what we didn't.

Apart from the WW2 stuff I also destroyed some TS material dated from the Iraq/Kuwait crisis of 1961. It may not have been important but who knows. Of Cuba only 4 years previous there was not a trace; my predecessors, one of whom was a squirrel, had cleaned the office.

[David Thompson]

So tracing the silver might be more difficult than imagined.
I'll be interested in the findings of any search.

It's still on display in the town hall . Perhaps not all of it but certainly a very large part of it and very impressive it is too .

[ian16th]

David
It's still on display in the town hall.

Thanks for that pleasing news.

Is the Inkwell there?

When we were informed of it being in the possession of what is probably the UK's most altered area of municipal name and boundry changes I feared the worst.

[Danny42C]

Ian16th,

Municipalities may come, and municipalities may go, but the Victorians built their Town Halls to last for ever ! (eg, Manchester, Leeds and Middlesbrough).

If it got into the Town Hall in the first place, it'll be still there. If not, not.

Danny.

[Danny42C]

ian16th (your #26),

(From Wiki):
"In June 1961" [Sqn. Ldr.] "Beavis set the record for the fastest non-stop flight from the UK to Australia which he established by flying a Vulcan from RAF Scampton to RAAF Richmond in just over 20 hours".

He was on 617 Sqn then; was awarded the AFC for it; retired as Air Chief Marshal Sir Michael Beavis KCB CBE AFC.

I was privileged to know him as "Mike Beavis", a Flying Officer in 1951 at Thornaby, where he was the Training Officer on 608 (Auxiliary) Sqn.

sharpend (your #34),

I can only commiserate ! Possibly 608 may be reconstituted in some future conflict, but RAF Thornaby is gone forever :( - buried under housing and Light Industry. They'll have to go somewhere else !

Danny.

[Tocsin]

Possibly 608 may be reconstituted in some future conflict, but RAF Thornaby is gone forever :( - buried under housing and Light Industry. They'll have to go somewhere else !

Danny.

True about the station, but never say never about the Sqn - 609 has now been around (again) for c. 15 years, 607 is in the process of re-forming, so that seems like bracketing ;)

[ian16th]

Beavis set the record for the fastest non-stop flight from the UK to AustraliaTo be pedantic, it was also the slowest! Seeing as at the time it was the only non-stop flight to Oz!

Wasn't it Bastard,? Not Beavis?

Me, I was in Karachi, making sure some Valiant's were up in the air to meet him with the requisite Avtur :ok:

[David Thompson]

Is the Inkwell there?
ian16th Danny42C
I found some but not all of my photographs of the aforementioned Thornaby silver and can tell you both that 3608 lives on ! From the photographs I noted ;
Three condiment sets but no visible donor or recipient
A pair of cut glass decanters - as above
A soild silver Hawker Demon - I'm pretty sure this was to 608 from Hawker ?
A solid silver DH Mosquito - presented postwar by DH to 608
A barometer presented to 608 by S/L FA Robinson DFC
and finally 3608 ;
Two candle holders with ornate swan necks and both presented to 3608 , one by F/L RW Lonsdale DFC MM and the other by F/L DH Swan DFC and both dated May 1955
Silver salver presented to 3608 by F/L GF Smith in March 1955
Two silver candleabras presented by F/O WK Grigg DFM
but sorry Danny42C and ian16th , no inkwell that I remember !

I await your further instructions ?

[Danny42C]

David Thompson,

Thanks for the detailed list of your finds. I'm interested in the '55 presentations by Fred Smith (a teacher, and one of my two Auxiliary Adjutants), Bob Lonsdale and Doug Swan (Auxiliary Fighter Controllers - but not "wingless wonders!"), all after November '54 (when I left). Grigg doesn't ring a bell, which doesn't signify, as it was sixty years ago and memory fades. I wonder whether the sight of my parting gift to the Officer's Mess prompted this sudden outbreak of generosity !

Sqn Ldr Robinson DFC was the Boss of 608 when I arrived in '51. He insisted on "checking me out" on his Vampires (although I'd been flying them on 20 Sqn last posting). Not having a dual Vamp (although the sqn had a T7 Meteor), he ordered me aloft in a single-seater, to "do rollers till we tell you to stop". He then, apparently, took up position in the Tower with binoculars. After three or four circuits he called me in, grudgingly admitted that I could still fly, but reproved me for getting power on late in the rolls. I didn't think so, the Goblin with that massive centrifugal impeller always spooled-up slowly.

His successor (Sqn Ldr G.A.Martin DFC AFC) and I got on well enough, and I had the choice of the Sqn TM, the Harvard and a Vampire when no one else wanted them. It was a pity that I one Sunday inadvertently blotted the Sqn's escutcheon by landing at MSG under the impression that I was at Thornaby (he was rather cross about that !)

Of course, the Mess was my home (as a regular), so my gift was to them, but the Auxiliaries would rightly think their first loyalty was to their unit(s). Bob Lonsdale, I think, was with 608's later M.O., Ian Stewart, in the doc's sports (Lea-Francis ?) saloon when he wrapped it round a lampost on the way back to Hartlepool (?). Bob suffered facial injuries (all this was long before seat-belts), and I jestingly commiserated with him, as we were fellow-sufferers.

It would seem that anything donated to 608, or any of its "derivatives" (where was 2608 - the Rock Apes must have been a tight-fisted lot !) was scooped up by the Middlesbrough Town Hall, but the rest (including my nice little inkstand for the Mess Hall "signing-in/out" books table), has gone, Lord only knows where. Yet I'll have daughter go and have a look-see, for you never know. Will report either way.

Now it only remains to thank you for this very interesting historical find, and to tell you that you can "stand down", conscious of a job well done ! (I'll take it from here).

Danny42C.

EDIT: And thanks for your email 2202 19th. I don't hold out much hope of ever seeing the inkstand again ! D.

[A2QFI]

It would, if they could find it! vast amounts of silver exist and were stored at Quedgely ISTR. I wonder where all the disbanded squadron's silver is now)

[Pontius Navigator]

When did we wake up and stop presenting silver?

OC 35, about 1971, was disappointed in the paucity of sqn silver. We went as far as getting a quote from Garrand but there was no enthusiasm on the sqn to cough up the dosh. The sqn disbanded a few years later probably never to reform.

[radar101]

In the early 90s as a young(ish) staff officer at HQ 11 Gp I was detailed to do a 100% check of mess silver. The Silver member and I went through the whole list - all present and correct - bar one flying trophy from the inter-war years. This large, solid silver trophy named after a famous RAF VSO could not be found. More to the point, since we had no photo, we did not know what it should look like.

Some weeks later I found it! It was being used as a door stop in the hall of the mess - only when I bent down to read the inscription did it become clear that this large, dirty winged lump was indeed the solid silver prestigious trophy.