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4Greens
12th Jun 2015, 08:37
Just read about the coming usage of civilian instructors for the RAF. Its all over!

The best thing about my flying training at Linton on Ouse was mingling with the serving military pilots. Service knowledge and tips wers part of the whole basic training effort.

Towards the end of my basic training, steep turns were practised and instilled as the best way of avoiding enemy fighters.

Marbles
12th Jun 2015, 09:26
Many young pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain had been taught during the RAF's pre-war expansion period by ex-RAF civilian pilots at civilian flying schools. During the battle the RAF ran short of trained pilots, not aircraft; had it not been for these civilian training schools we might have had even fewer of 'The Few'.

teeteringhead
12th Jun 2015, 09:36
ex-RAF civilian pilots at civilian flying schools And that is the crucial bit.

Once we lose (a number of) RAF QFI/QHIs, then from where do the next generation come??

But by then, the VSOs who made the decision will have long retired to write grumpy letters to the Torygraph. Cynical? Moi?

BEagle
12th Jun 2015, 10:00
But surely ex-RAF flying instructors will be queuing up in droves to apply for a job teaching on the T-6C in Anglesey?






Or perhaps not....:uhoh:

sharpend
12th Jun 2015, 10:18
Well the T-6C looks quite nice, better than a Bulldog. Will the Hawk still be the trainer for AFS? Be nice if they built a few new Folland Gnats.

Cows getting bigger
12th Jun 2015, 10:32
I'm fortunate enough to have batted for both sides. ;) Perhaps a civilian instructor can add something rather than just be belittled by skygoddery for not having Done Air Power? :ouch:

Background Noise
12th Jun 2015, 12:00
Will the Hawk still be the trainer for AFS?

Yes, it already is. The Hawk T2 has been in (student) service for 3 years or so and all flown by military instructors.

BEagle
12th Jun 2015, 12:50
sharpend wrote: Be nice if they built a few new Folland Gnats.

Well yes. But I can't see STUPRECCC and CUBSTUNT getting past the elfin safety and MAA huggy-fluffies of 2015....:uhoh:

Bob Viking
12th Jun 2015, 13:58
I absolutely agree that they will struggle like hell to get people to Valley. However for the few of us who actually quite like the place this is not a bad pipe and slippers job. Maybe the paucity of applicants might even mean they'll offer a decent salary?!
As for the Linton angle, I seem to recall being taught by quite a few ageing QFIs who had been around for aeons. Would civilian ex-RAF QFIs be any different?
BV

Madbob
12th Jun 2015, 14:37
BV


I had a similar experience at Linton but noted that those studes that had QFI's who were either ex FJ (or creamies) as their principal instructors tended ending up on the list going on to Valley.

From my experience with a principal QFI who was very proud of his Coastal Command heritage (ex Shacks) and a secondary who was a former Vuncan co-pilot my chances of being taught to fly anything remotely FJ was limited.

Therefore it was no surprise for me to end up at METS.......

Perhaps civilian instructors with a FJ background WILL work but that is not a sustainable model as where are the next gen of ex mil FJ instuctors to come from? They certainly won't grow on trees! Even fewer will actually want a permanent posting to VY!!

So sad and predictable.


MB

Bob Viking
12th Jun 2015, 15:34
MB.
In my day (Linton in 2001) we were already streamed FJ so there was no QFI lottery. My primary was an old and bold PA Flt Lt (previous FJ admittedly) and my secondary a VC-10 guy. Neither of them seem to have done me any lasting harm.
You are quite correct on your other points. It is all sadly predictable.
BV

Davef68
12th Jun 2015, 16:40
Are they all going to be civillians or will the instructors be a mix of service personnel and civillians (albeit with the 'training services' provided by Ascent?

If all civillians, is this the end of the creamie?

4Greens
12th Jun 2015, 16:42
My QFI in the early sixties at Linton was a Sergeant Pilot. He checked out on a Spitfire after a total thirty hours training! He was shot down on his first op and missed of rest of the Battle the due wounds.

He used to call himself 'The scourge of the Hun'! No wonder so many pilots trained in the war in the UK were killed.

Bob Viking
12th Jun 2015, 17:28
The Hawk Creamie died with the advent of the Hawk T2. I honesty don't know if we still select Tucano creamies.

The one and only service paper I have written to date suggested the practice continue on the T2. I actually thought it was well written and properly thought through although I imagine it has long since biodegraded in a landfill somewhere or been emptied from the Microsoft recycle bin.

I believe the intention is a split between mil and civvy. Once the recruitment drive fails to produce though I guess there will be a lot more assignment orders sending people to the island of dreams.

It's just like York really.

BV

wannabeTyphoon
12th Jun 2015, 20:40
They might be back on the cards Bob!

pr00ne
12th Jun 2015, 23:44
Read the NAO report on MFTS, it outlines exact instructor numbers and civilian vs military breakdown. The majority are going to be military.

Though with 28 Hawks, 23 Grob TP120s, 5 Embraer Phenoms and 10, yes TEN Beech T-6's, there will not be many of either.

One wonders if this bunch have looked at the numbers of training aircraft used by every other Air Force in the world...

ShotOne
13th Jun 2015, 02:31
I can see the argument for military pilots to be trained by experienced military pilots, but was that always really the case even back in the day? Creamies, by definition had no military experience other than of the training system and in my time at BFTS, many of the instructors, with some notable exceptions, had flown nothing other than a JP for many years.

chevvron
13th Jun 2015, 04:10
In any training system there will be accidents; where is the allowance for attrition? And as has been said before, a significant proportion of airframes will be undergoing maintenance at any one time.

Double Hush
13th Jun 2015, 06:06
WT, you are correct in that Creamies may be back on the cards. The impending QFI shortage at Valley means that not only is a second 'once only reset' on the cards but so are Creamies (oh, and civilian instructors on the Hawk T2!). The problem is that the front-line need all the output that Valley can produce. Recycle some of that output back as Creamies and the front-line go short! With civilianising the training system, there's no quick answer as any changes have to go through a tortuous contractual agreement, as the NAO report highlighted. I fear we are witnessing the slow death of RAF pilot training.

Lordflasheart
13th Jun 2015, 09:06
If this and the current parallel NAO thread - http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/562850-nao-report-mfts-2.html - are to believed, perhaps history will be forced to repeat itself ?
The Texas Air Base Where NATO Fighter Pilots Are Forged (http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a10741/the-texas-air-base-where-nato-fighter-pilots-are-forged-16920796/)
......... LFH

4Greens
13th Jun 2015, 09:31
Creamies ?

Above The Clouds
13th Jun 2015, 10:46
4Greens
Creamies ?


Above standard studes streamed during training to become instructors. If that's what you are asking.

LOMCEVAK
13th Jun 2015, 12:05
Although providing a different level of training to AFTS and BFTS, ETPS has over 50% civilian instructors. All are ex-military test pilots and many were ETPS tutors when still serving. The students learn from everyone's backgrounds and, frankly, it matters nothing whether an instructor on a given exercise is civilian or military. However, there is one fundamental difference with respect to the BFTS/AFTS proposal - living in south Wiltshire vs living on Anglesey!

4Greens
14th Jun 2015, 08:16
'Above the clouds', thanks for that. In my Navy days the only streaming was for fighters, AEW, and helicopters. Instructors were picked after they done a tour or two.

ShotOne
14th Jun 2015, 10:26
Can't help feeling that many of these sentiments are founded on a rose-tinted memory of how things were. When I was at BFTS many (most ?) instructors had not flown anything that wasn't red and white for at least as many years as the civilian instructors who are currently being dismissively referred to here.

just another jocky
14th Jun 2015, 14:22
Can't help feeling that many of these sentiments are founded on a rose-tinted memory of how things were.

Really? I struggle to believe that.

And they all seem so knowledgeable about todays RAF and the issues we face and how wrong we're getting things. I just blindly assumed that they were better informed.

BEagle
14th Jun 2015, 14:41
In the late '70s, certainly there weren't many dyed-in-the-wool red-and-white QFIs at RAFC. Experience ranged from V-force to Lightnings, Sunderlands to Belvederes, Hunters to Canberras, Britannias to Beverleys - and pretty well everything else.

But as time went by, I expect that many QFIs' 'former types' were no longer in service and it's thus hardly surprising that some preferred to stay on JPs rather than go back to an OCU and onto a new type - if indeed they were given the chance. Rather a pity; when I was instructing at a UAS in the early '90s most of us wanted to escape Learning Command as soon as we could, although others preferred the airlines.

Exnomad
14th Jun 2015, 19:38
On national service at No 2 BFTS at Derby in 1951, all our Chipmunk instructors, except ther chief were civilians, adressed at "Mr"

Audax
15th Jun 2015, 05:51
But there have been civilian QFIs in the system for years, the last big input was in 1997ish when ex Mil pilots were recruited and know as Aviation Officers, wearing uniform but employed by the Civil Service. These guys were generally very experienced pilots and QFIs who gave a very good service. Some changed to become FTRS which caught them out when their 4 year contracts were not renewed.

greenedgejet
16th Jun 2015, 17:54
4Greens, wake up man!

Where have you been the past 20 years?

Almost all uk military direct entry pilots from all three services started their flight training with at least some civilian QFIs from 1995 to 2003. (Huntings and Babcock).

The Joint Elementary Flying Training School (http://www.rafchurchfenton.org.uk/jefts.htm)

Indeed most RN and AAC and RAF Multi engine pilots have continued to do so to the present day. Babcock pilots carry out Army and Navy grading as well as EFT and RAF MELIN.

The "pure" civi QFIs face more annual check rides than their military colleagues as they face the same Military tests as well as CAA ones. Their ranks include Flt Cmdrs with considerable aerobatic and formation flying backgrounds, and the highest number of A2s in the system. Some have been teaching Military students since the mid 1990s.

Under Ascent, top notch civis teach Navy observers.

At Shawbury there are many ex mil QHIs.

Provided there is a military ethos to the schools, the mix of backgrounds is a genuine asset to be valued not scorned.:ugh:

Roland Pulfrew
17th Jun 2015, 05:05
Almost all uk military direct entry pilots from all three services started their flight training with at least some civilian QFIs from 1995 to 2003. (Huntings and Babcock).

Indeed most RAF Multi engine pilots have continued to do so to the present day. Babcock pilots carry out EFT and RAF MELIN.

The "pure" civi QFIs ......... have been teaching Military students since the mid 1990s.

Under Ascent, top notch civis teach Navy observers.

At Shawbury there are many ex mil QHIs.

Provided there is a military ethos to the schools, the mix of backgrounds is a genuine asset to be valued not scorned.:ugh:

Not strictly true is it, GEJ? RAF EFT went back to pure military in 2006 with the establishment of 16, 57 and 85 (R) sqns.

Civvie QFIs teaching military students since the 90s is, as others have pointed out, not necessarily a good thing. Where is the recent frontline experience? Where is the military ethos in that?

Top notch civvies at Culdrose, aren't they pretty much all Ex-Mil? Nothing wrong with civvie EX-MIL, but it is the ex-mil bit that is hugely important. Just as it is at Shawbs.

Problem is, for Ascent, and soon the military, the pool of ex-mil instructors is starting to dry up. It will eventually wither, and no-one predicted that, well the SO1s and SO2s involved in the farce of MFTS did but the senior hierarchy weren't listening!! Valley is a case in point.

Now they want to move BFT to Valley!! Good luck with recruiting qualified ex-mil for that! Which means more postings of regular manpower to bail out a contractor that promised everything but failed to deliver - again!!

just another jocky
17th Jun 2015, 06:25
Merely for accuracy sake, 16(R), 57(R) & 85(R) were not formed under those numbers until much later than '06. When EFT shifted from the UAS's to dedicated sqns in '06, they were named 1 Sqn 1 EFTS, 2 Sqn 1 EFTS & 3 Sqn, 1 EFTS.

I don't know which year they changed to full sqn numbers as I wasn't there then but I was when they moved from UAS to EFT in 06.

angelorange
19th Jun 2015, 18:07
RP, not sure what your point is regarding GEJ's comments - he is accurate. RAF pilots were trained by civilians under JEFTS for some 10 years up till around 2003 and continued to be trained under MELIN (and from 2013 alongside 16Sqn) for 45(R) Sqn entry into the Multi Engined world to this day.

RN and AAC pilots have stayed with the system started in 1995 under JEFTS, through DEFTS (post RAF pullout from T67 at Chruch Fenton) and by 2009/2010 over to the G115e with very experienced civi and military QFIs under 3 FTS.

Historically:

From RAF Hendon records:

Inter-War flying training | Historical Periods | Taking flight | Exhibitions & Displays | Research | RAF Museum (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/online-exhibitions/taking-flight/historical-periods/inter-war-flying-training.aspx)


"1914: RFC: With the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, it was clear that the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) would have to expand if it were to serve the Army in France and replace its own casualties. The Central Flying School (CFS) did not have the capacity to support this growth, so new training units were opened and civilian flying schools commandeered. "


"1936: The RAF Volunteer Reserve (RAFVR) was formed. The RAFVR provided a reservoir of trained aircrew to support the regular and reserve squadrons. Pupil pilots learnt to fly at weekends at civilian-run flying schools and attended classes in the evenings for their ground based tuition.

To cope with the influx of personnel, from the mid 1930s onwards, all student pilots, except Cranwell cadets, received two months' elementary training at civil schools. The FTS course was also cut from nine months to six to increase the output of pilots. During this period the Schools were supplied with fast new monoplane aircraft, such as the Miles Magister and Link Trainers were introduced to help teach instrument flying.

By 1939, RAF flying training was better than ever before, but shortages of instructors, airfields and training aircraft meant too few pilots were being produced. Nevertheless, the training structure was almost in place to support the expansion of the RAF into the mass 'citizens' air force' needed to fight the coming war. "

As for the quality of these QFIs (many of whom have spent 20 years teaching military pilots) perhaps we should let CFS do the talking rather than making unquantifiable judgements:

News Letter (http://www.centralflyingschool.org.uk/Letter.htm)