Second rear windscreen in Harrier

[tartare]

A bona jet related question.
Browsing the web, and came across this photo in The Grainuad:

Growth, what growth? Thatcherism fails to produce the goods | Business | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2015/jun/10/growth-what-growth-thatcherism-fails-to-produce-the-goods)

If I am not mistaken, Mrs T is sitting in a two seat Harrier (I may be wrong)?
But why is there a second full armoured windscreen behind the front seat?
Or is it another aircraft altogether...

[uffington sb]

No it's the same aircraft. Looks like the front canopy has been removed to allow for the photo shoot (it's hinged on the right side of the cockpit).
I'm sure the chap standing next to Mrs T will be along shortly to explain all.


Scroll down to see a better photo with Raymond Baxter in the rear seat.


http://www.airdisplaymuseum.com/Pages/JohnFarley.aspx

[tartare]

Ah... I see.
So the two seat Harrier actually did have a full internal screen to protect the back seat as well.
Wonder if it was to stop debris from front seat and canopy in case of an ejection?

[longer ron]

As USB said - the chap with curly hair might come along soon and explain :)

[Above The Clouds]

Bird strike protection for the rear seat ?

[Buster Hyman]

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56579&stc=1&d=1101760975

[tartare]

Yes - the chap with the curly hair.
One of the great things about this site - the chance to occasionally swap dits with real aviation legends.

[Mogwi]

I am sure that said chap will give the definitive answer but I was led to believe on the conversion course, that it was to protect the rear cockpit occupant from debris and rocket efflux when the front chappie went out. "The second and third commands to eject will be echoes!"

This was demonstrated beautifully at Wildenrath in the early 70s when a certain pipe-smoking QFI landed the T bird after the pilot under check had ejected on short finals because of a control restriction. I think he passed!

Swing the lamp!

[tartare]

Tks Mog.
Just finished your book by the way - cracking read.

[John Farley]

Chaps

Yes she was sitting in the front cockpit of a 2 seater. The front canopy was not fitted. Can't remember wot stage that aircraft was in manufacture.

Looking at the size and slope of the front two seater canopy the scope for a birdstrike is obvious is it not? So to stop one birdstike getting both blokes the rear cockpit was protected with its own windscreen and canopy.

Clearly this also allowed a student ejecting from the front (perhaps having been told to do so by the instructor) not to affect the rear occupant.

[Flap62]

If I remember rightly the handle on the rear windscreen was so that the front seater could open it on long transits and pass through cups of tea and sandwiches.

[cornish-stormrider]

Ah but surely the front seater would have to unstrap to turn round and play butler
Then while doing so kicks the stick to roll.....
Then finds himself standing on a canopy astride the mdc thinking perhaps that was not a good idea!

Seats scared me, I was bricking it when I had to remove and stow the seat pan pin on my backseat trip......

Much respect to those who chose a career sitting on a bomb

[glad rag]

Heard on my last seat lecture about a bod who set the drogue off and it went through/up his arm and out dragging it's gubbins along behind it.......

:yuk:

don't ever take them for granted.

I knew of a place where it was common practice for people to continue to work in the cockpits after seat fit BEFORE the vitals had been carried out.....:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

who would be liable there?

[charliegolf]

I had a trip in a 2 seater in 1984 at Gut. I would have sworn on a bible that I did not have my own windscreen, and that there was just one big canopy. Might I be right? Either way, I'm chuffed to have bagged the ride.

CG

[Basil]

a student ejecting from the front (perhaps having been told to do so by the instructor)
Later, in the bar:
"When I said 'Eff off, Bloggs' it was just my way of expressing disagreement!" ;)

[Rossian]

.....wasn't there a legend that on long transits in a Lightning that there was a competition for who would do a full 360 in the cockpit. It had to be observed by a mate flying inverted over the top?? (Bersatu Padu anyone??).
I'm sure it was a Saffer Lightning mate who told me. I was a lot of thousands of feet below in a Shackledrone doing SAR cover en route Gan, and there were some cryptic conversations on the common freq.

The Ancient Mariner

PS if a MOD feels this might be more appropriate in the WIWOL thread be my guest.

[ShyTorque]

CG, I flew in the same two seater and I think you're correct, it had a one piece, blow moulded canopy. I can't remember if there was a second, internal screen but it was over thirty years ago.

Edit: I think my memory must be wrong, on second thoughts I think that must have been the F-16...

[charliegolf]

CG, I flew in the same two seater

And as usual, I had to clear up after you!:ok:

CG

[RedhillPhil]

Didn't the Buccaneer have a sort of a second windscreen?

[Kitbag]

I'm sure JF will be along soon enough, but if you look here (http://www.edavirtual.org/download/books/Harrier/Harrier.pdf) on p16 is a T2 with an internal windscreen for the rear seat. I don't think there would be much difference in the later 2 seat tin wing Harriers.
CG & ST, maybe your lineswine just did a good job in keeping the internal screens spotless?

I was surprised to see the screen was shaped rather than flat like the Hawk and Jaguar internal screens from the same era

[Background Noise]

I suppose it has to be self supporting. The Hawk blast screen is fixed inside the canopy and the Jaguar cockpits were much further apart with a lot more structure than just a screen between the 2 canopies.

[longer ron]

The T2/4/8 rear screens were identical - the T10 canopy arrangement was very different - the T2/4/8 rear cockpit was small/cramped - I never flew in either but did do back seat on many engine runzzzzzz on tin wing and plastic pig 2 seaters.... the T10 rear cockpit/canopy layout was far superior and much more 'open'.
The tinwing front canopy always seemed a little 'flimsy' - partly because it was so big and because of the relative positions of the 2 seats - I always assumed that the rear occupant would need good protection from birds and possibly runway barrier/wire !

[Trim Stab]

I have to say that although I the discussion about the T2 Harrier is more interesting and I don't want to hijack the thread, I am also interested how the Thatcher press secretary at the time (was it Bernard Ingham) authorised and organised that photo. Presumably Mrs T was wearing her normal formal attire of the time, which would not have been very suitable for slipping into such a tight cockpit (narf narf). So how was the protocol?

[sandiego89]

Just to be clear, the cockpit section that Buster H. posted above, while it does show the additional windscreen well, is not displayed with flight representative transparacies. This appears to be salvaged cockpit section with simple tranparancies fitted as a home done project, and some additional braces put into place (an extra pillar in both the front an rear cockpits). Likely simple plexigas than can only be bent in one dimension, not the complex, "blown" clear canopy on a real Harrier Mk. 2/4/8. Not a criticism of the cockpit project or the poster at all- just don't want anyone to think these are how the "real" first generation twin seat canopies looked.

Here is one of the smartest looking two seaters, note the very long front transparancy and curves. I am sure someone here is quite familiar with this one....




http://www.airvectors.net/avav8_3_08.jpg

http://www.airvectors.net/avav8_3_08.jpg

[Buster Hyman]

Cheers sd89. Don't profess to know anything at all about the topic but saw the image & hoped it would contribute to the conversation.

Appreciate your clarification. :ok:

[India Four Two]

Scroll down to see a better photo with Raymond Baxter in the rear seat.
http://www.airdisplaymuseum.com/Pages/JohnFarley.aspx

Slight thread drift, but after looking at uffington sb's link, I have two questions for JF.

1. What is the story behind the "Brazil Shed" photos?

2. What is the story behind your logbook entry for Nov 20, 1964 - "HP115 Accident Photy"?

[Darvan]

Didn't the Buccaneer have a sort of a second windscreen?

Yes it did. It was called the blast screen to protect the Nav primarily in the event of a bird strike. It protected Bobby Poots at 550 kts and at 100 ft on the run in to Garvie when he thought the pilot was incapacitated following a gull strike on the front canopy. However..........(there's another story) :hmm:

[clarkieboy]

There's a "blast" from the past....
I changed that screen, and filled some of the holes in the tanks.

[drustsonoferp]

I hadn't realised that Mr Farley's hair was so unruly that it could only be tamed by a brush at a suitably safe distance.