UK Roadshows for EK

[puff m'call]

24th to 28th June.

Just to give you guys and girls back there the heads up, read the different threads on here first if you intend going along and pick out some questions to ask.
It's getting really bad out here now with 90 hrs a month, east/west flights, long haul mixed with short and minimum days off.

I left thinking charter flying was going to kill me, WRONG!!! but this type of flying will.

Be warned!

[gardenshed]

No Welcome to the award winning airline.
That has increased the hours worked without a by or leave. Rosters East and West as it sees fit, but you try and roster swop that way to try and improve your lifestyle with days off, the system rejects you.
The caring Airline that has repeatedly failed to raise pay to anything like inflation for several years, that also requires ground engineers to work compulsory overtime. That can if needs must, roster you into overtime without even asking if you would mind.
42 days leave forget it, and if you have Kids well you might be able to go on holiday with them once every 3 or 4 years, thats if they remember who you are, other than the grumpy old git who just comes and goes and strange times of the day and night.
Married well I hope you have a better divorce lawyer than your wife shall we say.
The luxury villas great if you fancy living in something akin to 1970's style Chinese workers compounds, go google Meydan Heights/South.
From the training meetings we are about 450 pilots short of what we need, and there is a dam good reason for that. The glitz and glamour of that wide body soon wear off and then its just another aeroplane punching a hole in the sky on its 14Hr flight somewhere, where you can have a 24Hr layover, but wait thats 24hrs from shed. brakes on to shed. brakes off, so by the time you get to your hotel you might have 18hrs to recover before heading home to Dubai in the summer where its a lovely 40c +.

[SOPS]

Read the above they speak the truth. By pure coincidence, just before reading this thread, I got an email from a good freind in EK. His wife has told him she is going home and wants a divorce. The fact that he his hardly ever home and when he is, he is little more than a jet lagged zombi had led to this. And an impending forced move to Meydan wasn't helping either.At least, that what he has said to me.

[The Outlaw]

Anyone considering going to this roadshow best take heed to the above.

As one of our senior managers once said "its all about public perception" and this is the tag line that recruitment uses to sign up the un-initiated, reality is a very different matter. All cockpits are the same...and you'll spend a lot of time in them here. Don't be fooled by the bigger A/C, its only more cabin crew who ignore you and passengers complaining/getting sick/not turning up to the gate/etc etc.

All marriages are tested here and many fail. You'll need the patience of Jobe and a partial lobotomy to make it past 3 years....not the marriage, the company and city!

If I can offer advice I'd say that if you have a job, stay where your are. If you don't have a job, consider going back to university and find a better vocation.

And always remember...it only gets worse every year...I'll bet they won't mention that at the roadshow either.

[springbok449]

For me the biggest issue is the lack of leave been awarded, most don't come close to the minimum legal required 30 days let alone the 42 contractual...

[Wh1sper]

Agree Springbok. For me the forced leave in the middle of the school year is another unacceptable practice. Some pilots have not been given any leave for a year!

And the roster limitations and restrictions making it close to impossible to make plans with my family month after month.

Better to look elsewhere for quality of life.

[allaru]

YOUR LEGAL ENTITLEMENT IS 30 DAYS PLUS TE 10 BELOW NOT 30.

ARTICLE (75)
- 22 -
The employee must be granted an annual leave during each year of service which may
not be less than:
1. Two days per month in respect of any employee with more than six months and
less than one year of service.
2. Thirty days per annum in respect of any employee whose period of service
exceeds on year.

ARTICLE (76)
The employer may at his discretion determine the date for commencement of annual
leaves and, when necessary, he may decide to divide the leave in two parts at the most,
except in cases of juveniles where vacation may not be divided in parts.


ARTICLE (74)
Each employee is entitled to an official leave with full pay on the following occasions:
- Hijra New Year. One day
- Christian New Year. One day
- Eid Al Fitr Two days
- Eid Al Adha and Waqfa day Three days
- Birthday of the Prophet One day
- Ascension Day One day
- National Day One day

ARTICLE (81)
If exigencies of work necessitate that the employee work on holidays or rest days
against which he receives full or partial pay he shall be compensated in lieu thereof with
increase in pay by 50% of his wage, but if he has not been compensated for the same
with a leave, the employer shall pay him an increase to his basic wage equivalent to
150% of the days of work



ARTICLE (65)
The maximum normal working hours for adult employees shall be eight hours per day

ARTICLE (67)
If circumstances of work necessitate that an employee works more than the normal
working hours, the extra time shall be considered overtime, for which the employee
shall receive a remuneration equal to that corresponding to his normal working hours
plus an extra of at least 25 percent of such remuneration.

ARTICLE (68)
If circumstance of work necessitate that an employee works overtime between 9.00 p.m
and 4.00 a.m., he shall be entitled to normal working hours pay plus an increase equal to
at least 50% of such pay.

ARTICLE (69)
Actual overtime may not exceed two hours per day unless work in necessary to prevent
substantial loss or serious accident or to eliminate or alleviate its effects.

ARTICLE (70)
Friday is the normal weekly holiday for all employees except for those on daily wage
bases.
If the employee is required to work on Friday he shall be granted one day off for rest or
be paid the basic pay for normal working hours plus 50% increase at least of such pay.

[BigGeordie]

EK is classed as a government entity so UAE labour law does not apply. This is something potential applicants should consider very carefully.

[SOPS]

One of the things that helped my descion to leave was the fact that, had I stayed I would have gone 15 months between leave allocations, and after waiting 15 months for leave, I was allocated 10 days leave.

Just to make that clear for those considering, in January 2014 I had 3 weeks leave. The next leave I was awarded was 10 days in April 2015. This is nothing like the advertised 6 weeks a year, and with the 10 days leave in April, I still would have had a roster of around 80 hours.

Time to take the dogs for a walk.......

[alwayzinit]

By all means go the shows .
However, ensure ask about the unmentioned aspects of life in the Pit.
Ask why after announcing enormous large profits the work force, operational crew, were just awarded the contractial step dressed up as a pay rise .
Ask about the real cost of schooling for your kids, especially in secondary school.
Definitely ask why it's so difficult for crews to take leave.
Ask what the operational reason is for limiting strings of days off to 5, even when max hours have been reached.
Have a really good think what spending 3 months inside every year because it's so unbelievably hot.
Be prepared to risk life and limb every time you venture onto the roads.
Go and find out what they have to say but compare it with what you have read here, then work out who has the most to gain by misleading you.

[Dropp the Pilot]

The fact that leave is unavailable only screens the theft which occurs once you do get leave.

You can see concrete examples of this in a number of the preceding posts. If you are sufficiently unfortunate to take a small number of leave days in a calendar month it is quite easy to see that in many cases you will be assigned the same number of hours as you would have flown in a full month of work. Worse, take your roster which has say 7 days leave. Add to those 7 days the number of XX days you have in the remainder of the month. That total number of days free of work you have attained with this tally will often be LESS than pilots who took no leave at all - you will have expended your vacation days and yet had less time off than you would have had you NOT taken holidays.

Cynical, high-handed, morally bereft theft of your leave. Full stop.

[lol777]

Good idea. Give us ideas on what to ask for on road shows. I would also just like to know from the guys working there. The hours of flying and leave problems and hard work is due to pilot shortage at EK. Someone mentioned 500 odd short of crew. If you encourage guys not to come there you are making your own problems just worse. Aren't you. By encouraging guys to come there will fix your complaint about these problems. I know there are other complaints, but just looking at the complaints above you are shooting your self in the foot here. The solution I see for THIS problem is being handled wrong way around.
I know you have lots of other issues and so on and so on.

[glofish]

..... said the slave to his cousin back in Africa: Come and enjoy the s#!t life here, it'll relieve my working hours in the cotton fields .....

But please come to the new sand pit, with reasoning like that you fit in perfectly!:ugh:

On another note: Does any one of you guys out there have a clue as to how we can get passed the message not to come to the sand pit?
It seems as the more pilots ask us about reports how it really is, the more idiots from outside seem attracted to try to prove us wrong!

[Kamelchaser]

Just flew with an FO who told me 30% of his intake of FOs has left within three years.

The company has raised the bond to 5 years and 45,000USD (I understand) and now people taking out the car loan have to sign an undated cheque to the company before they get the money. If you leave without paying it back, they'll bank the cheque and lay criminal charges against you when the cheque bounces. The same sort of financial handcuffs that the banks here use. I would strongly recommend NEVER doing doing anything of the sort unless you have the cash to pay off the loan if you want to leave any time soon.

This is desperation...and not exactly conducive to convincing people the company is a friendly place to come work.

Unable to recruit, unable to retain existing pilots and cabin crew....but thankfully TCAS "isn't losing any sleep over it"..in his own words.

[alwayzinit]

lol777.
I am only trying to present prospective newbies to the Pit all the information to be able to make a balanced choice that is best for them.

The points I suggested will not be aired by the recruitment team unless raised by the audience.

After all, knowledge is power.

[bogeydope]

lol777

We've been flying these crazy rosters for the last 5 years or so!:{:{

All we're saying is, that this is unsustainable...........:ugh::ugh:

[fatbus]

So if you have been doing for 5 years then you have sustained the rosters for 5 years. Company will not thank you when you leave. But they got @ 5000 hrs from you.the next guy will sustain the rosters for how ever long it takes him to leave and so on and so on. Everyone needs to know you are replaceable regardless of any pilot shortage. EK could care less about your concerns of sustaining the current rosters .

[bogeydope]

fatbus, no disagreement from me on your points. Just pointing things out!

[Ophion]

. EK could care less about your concerns of sustaining the current rosters .

Could care less? Don't you mean they couldn't care less?

[170to5]

lol777

I think that most guys here have lost faith that rosters will improve by any degree if they suddenly find more pilots.

They will not because pilot welfare (and of course staff welfare in general) appears to be such a low priority that if they can possibly make their current pilot group work harder they will do, they simply do not seem to care about reasonable limits. If they could make guys work every day, they would. The fact that people might be unhappy and leave simply does not seem to concern them.

If new guys join, they will not help to improve rosters for the guys working here already, they will simply crew new routes and new aeroplanes, and will feel a bit dim for thinking that everyone's roster would get better because they'd joined...and for not listening to the pages and pages and pages of complaint threads that have started on this forum over the last year or so.

That's a shame because this place could so easily be the best airline in the world to work for, but unless they start to appreciate their crew it will continue to be an unhappy, demoralized workplace...and there seem to be no plans and no interest in changing this. Most worryingly, passengers seem to be noticing now. Flown a 380 recently? Never seen such disinterested or frazzled staff anywhere else!

[SOPS]

lol777. Let me tell you a story. Up to when I decided to retire early from the industry in March this year, I was a 777 captain with EK.

Just so you know, I had been flying for 36 years and my last log book entry shows me as having just over 22000 hours, of those almost 7000 are in command of the 777 for EK.

I moved from a job I loved to go to EK. The only reason I did that was because the airline I had worked for, for 19 wonderful years was in Europe, and my family ( due to personal reasons) had moved back to Australia. It became harder and harder to fly from Eurpoe to home as a commuter.

I went for an interview at EK. They showed me rosters that had 10 days off in a row. They showed me a contract that involved 78 hours a month. They showed me a contract that said six weeks annual leave. They showed me how great the staff travel was.

So I went to EK. The first couple of years were as advertised. Then the GFC happened, and the cubicle dwellers got hard ons, as how,they could screw the pilot group and increase their bonus.

And let me tell you, they went to town. They had their own wet dream every night for years. They sat and watched their bank balance increase at the expense of those they were meant to support.

And at that point I should have left. But I hung in there..thinking it would get better. I didn't, it got worse.

Restricted days off, unable to get leave, management by fear. ( ASR...250 knots at 4900 feet)

I was in the lucky position to decide to get out early. I wish now I had done it a year ago.
I feel so much better, physically and mentally. I did not realise how much the punishing rosters of 92 hours a month, in all hours of the day and night, was taking a toll on my health. I realise that now.

I'm sure Harry the Cod will be back soon to say how wrong I am, and my inbox will be full of people saying to stop posting,

But .........
Regards SOPS

[Emma Royds]

If you are single and have the option of taking unpaid leave from your existing employer and fancy a sabbatical, then by all means have a look but I would not resign from a job to come here and/or bring family.

[harry the cod]

SOPS

Would hate to disappoint old chap, but on this occasion, I will.

I actually agree with your post. I've done slightly less time than yourself but nonetheless have endured a deteriorating quality of life since I joined. Whilst the airline industry in general has suffered the same slide in terms and conditions, the rub for me is the vast profits that are being made and demanded from this highly profitable Company. Unfortunately, this 'greed is good' culture perpetuates from the top down, manifested in huge bonuses for senior management, none of which are ever disclosed. There is no transparency and as such, we are directly at the mercy of those that will put their own financial gain ahead of those they manage and, quite possibly, the overall good of this Company. Very rarely will these senior managers leave EK for other Companies. This is their nirvana and an opportunity to top up pensions and quietly build their bank balances whilst stretching out a few more years of gainful employment. Whilst I do despair at times with the constant whinging and bleating on these forums, often it's from pilots who have joined an airline with a long term view. We, unlike some of our managers, have invested our time, family and career into Emirates and Dubai. It's not so easy to just up and leave as it would if we lived in our own Countries. This Company knows that. That's why we've had only a 0.5% pay rise in the last 3 years. Our increment steps are not pay rises and those with no steps to go will have little choice now but to wait until retirement or call it a day early. Nice way to care for you loyal staff your highness! Talk is cheap. To be honest, I'm tired of all the rhetoric and broken promises. I'm also tired of the constant propaganda and self promotion. Even the paying public are starting to read between the lines. If they spent more time and money investing in their core asset, the employees, instead of a plethora of sporting events, teams and buildings, the motivation and payback would be immeasurably improved. Pay them a good wage and treat them well, they will repay you in spades. I fear, however, that this 'dream' may well be too late.

When our DSVP can stand in front of several hundred trainers and have the audacity to say he 'loses no sleep over recruitment', what little respect I may have had has all but gone. At least our SVP training had the honesty and integrity to communicate the truth. One will be leaving later this year having topped up an already huge pension, the other has invested his time and personal money into Dubai and is looking long term. That to me sums up how wrong it is with the current remuneration and bonus package for senior managers. If he's losing no sleep over manpower issues, why are the pilots not getting their full entitlement to 42 days leave?

He may have thought there were 200 idiots in the room. In truth, there was only one.

So, for those that are thinking of joining, be very, very careful. Puff m'call offers wise advice. Ask as many questions as you need to and try to get as much in writing as you can. Visit here before you join and ask as many people you know about Emirates and Dubai. Whilst financially this is still a good choice, from a lifestyle perspective it may not be. It very much depends on your current contract and you own personal circumstances. Please, do not come here if you're financially secure and settled. This may not be the icing on the cake you think. At 47 degrees and 89% humidity, icing melts quick.

Enjoy your retirement SOPS. Give those dogs of yours a good walk....and a bloody long one too, for me! ;)

Harry

[SOPS]

Harry, I have to say thanks. I will pay that one. I am now, at this minute sitting with my darling wife in front of the fire. The dogs, having been for a long walk about 3 hours ago, are asleep in front of it.

Everything you have just said is very very true.

But can I say just one thing. And it never happened to me...but as you know there is a constant fear factor in Ek, you are only as good as your last sector, bull:mad: ASRS.,

Well I have to say, just having the " background" pressure removed from my life is amazing......

And I wont get into my 4 months with the Gnome. .o

[harry the cod]

Two things. Firstly, whilst the reporting culture in this Company still has a long way to go before ever being truly 'Just', I still think that too many pilots create their own problems by either reporting stuff they don't need to or not reporting the stuff they should!

Secondly, My own experience of the doc you refer to has been nothing but exemplary. He was courteous, efficient and big picture. In fact, it was one of the easiest medicals done in EK. He may well have a reputation amongst many of our colleagues but I treat people as I find them. In my case, he did his job professionally.

Anyway, for you SOPS, he and the rest of this Company should be a distant memory. And getting more distant each day......ok! :ok:

Harry

[Drohmster]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all this information and warnings. But nevertheless, being stuck on a turboprop also kind of sucks. No outlook even though flying through Europe on scheduled flights to many major airports, a Q400 remains a turboprop and most of the airlines are not accepting turboprop hours (for whatever reason)

Does anybody know, if Emirates is accepting pilots with more than 2000h on the Q400 (or ATR) or if they start to consider them in the near future due to the lack of pilots?

Thanks for your replies!

Cheers

[EK380]

H
Does anybody know, if Emirates is accepting pilots with more than 2000h on the Q400 (or ATR) or if they start to consider them in the near future due to the lack of pilots?

Thanks for your replies!

Cheers

No turboprop Rule is to avoid having to do Base training on the actual aircraft. It might change one day, who knows...

[Drohmster]

No turboprop Rule is to avoid having to do Base training on the actual aircraft. It might change one day, who knows...


Interesting. Makes even sense, somehow...

But what are the requirements for a ZFTT? As far as I know, a candidate must have a certain experience level on a multi-pilot turbo-jet or multi-pilot turboprop with a MTOW >10t and a least 19 PAX seats in order to qualify for ZFTT.

Or does it really matter if a candidate operates a CRJ200 with a MTOW 24t or a Q400 with a MTOW 29t and more PAX seats?

[gardenshed]

Drohmster really hate to burst your bubble but do you think sitting in an A330 on yet another night turn to the sub-continent is any better.
Oh but there is the B777 you say well, it looks like the 777 is going to slowly become the new 330 fleet as it picks up the 330 routes.
At the end of the day it is just another piece of tin pushing through the sky paying some sort of salary.
It is quality of life that counts, and if Dubai was that good people wouldn't be leaving. Simples.

[EK380]

Drohmster,

Unfortunately turbo-jet transport only for now...

Pilots undertaking ZFTT shall have not less than 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors on a relevant type.

A relevant type of aeroplane is a turbo-jet, transport category aeroplane with a MTOW of not less than 10 tons or an approved passenger seating configuration for not less than 20 passengers.

[Drohmster]

Thanks for the Info EK380.

I personally think it's ridiculous, but those are the rules.

Of course, acceptance of ZFTT is also subject to the local authorities and the company. But I know, that guys joining flydubai are allowed to do ZFTT on the transition from the Q400 to the 738, so I thought that might also apply to EK.

It basically means at EK, 500h on Dornier 328-100 No-go, 500h on Dornier 328-300JET welcome...???

[lol777]

Makes sense what you guys are saying. Do basically problem will not be fixed by getting more crew. Or Enough crew. Cause basically it will never happen. As they join the rest of all the other crap are making others leave and so the problem will continue forever.
I thank the guys with good answers. I'm looking at moving from where I am. And we don't know exactly what you are going through there and I am trying to get the best picture of what if and how.
So by the way snotty answers won't help your case or make it better or help anyone trying to get info about life and work there. Just makes you look like you are complaining with a iPad under the arm. But thanks again for the good and and reasonable explanations. And good luck to all. Hope it does get better for everyone hating it there.

[lol777]

Sorry for the mistakes in post. Bloody predictive text. I know about the mistakes after reading what i just posted so dont waste you time by telling me. Lol.

[falconeasydriver]

I am now into single digits as to the days I have left, and I joined with all the wide eyed optimism of the promise of a great job, ok location and a few things more besides.
Fast forward a bit and it became apparent that management had no intention of viewing staff as an asset, the organisational culture is toxic, the people who could make a difference chose the path of self-interest and arrogance over engagement and inclusiveness, they have created a a bubble of denial and self congratulation.
Still sound appealing? perhaps 900hrs a year of long haul/short haul, minimal leave, punitive management and of course untouchable individuals making daft policy decisions based on nothing in particular may make appealing sound more like appalling.
Less than 10 days and counting for me.
Go along to a roadshow, but ask the questions about leave, days off, rostering restrictions and the rate that people are leaving. Don't accept wishy washy answers either.

[Deep and fast]

No point in asking questions, you'll only be fed bull****. It it ain't in black and white it don't exist.

Not just an Emirates thing, standard recruitment bull shizer

[china]

Add Content

[gardenshed]

Basically the recruitment team will try and tell you that Dubai is a great place to live and Ek probably the best gig in town etc etc etc.
It's only once you get here that you will find that even though its highly polished it is still a turd.
I'm sure that the road shows for China etc are much the same.

[alwayzinit]

The company really do not care about who leaves or stays or comes so long as their schedule flies and their expansion plans go ahead.


That is not really any different to any other carrier. However, EK used to be a career airline, like the legacy carriers in the US and Europe. There are still guys who have been in the pit from close to the start up in '85. Their numbers are obviously dwindling but the guys who were in the 2nd pick up are now leaving earlier. Not due to having bulging pension pots but because the schedules are not pleasant or sustainable in the long term.


Basically a 5 year or so life span on the current roster pattern looks to be about it before exhaustion and loss of life quality takes its toll.


To put that into a 40 year flying career it doesn't sound much but think about leaving where you are and then looking for somewhere else in 5 years. You may not have a widebody command under your belt due to unforeseen issues, sickness, warning letter, etc.


How would 5 years or so flying big jets in the pit knock onto your current career path, marriage ? That is a question for the individual to answer but it's one you need to ask yourselves before committing.


Everyone has their own priorities its just that the company's , any company's, are NOT the same as yours.

[Nikita81]

Everyone has their own priorities its just that the company's , any company's, are NOT the same as yours. Which is a supreme paradox and completely unsustainable for that company.

Of course, there are companies (managers) which (who) understand that there is no future without taking care of their employees. There are also companies which have plans for the future.

Companies should not be enemies to their staff (like it sounds from your post). It's an insane managerial strategy and not all companies (managers) behave like that. Just the insane ones.

[flareflyer]

Nikita,
Did you stop your blog?????
I hope not.......

[Nikita81]

Nikita,
Did you stop your blog?????
I hope not.......

As far as I can check from here, blog is still online. ;)