DXB and ATC. Can we talk?

[Fire Ball XL5]

Seems most chaps enjoyed the opportunity in the UK. Sure wish we could work out a similar arrangement in DXB... With the ops tempo at full throttle... seems it would be a welcome opportunity to chat and enhance all's understanding. I'd be first in line to attend! :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/562027-wanted-pilots-attend-emergency-training-air-traffic-controllers.html#post9002397

[allrounder99]

just curious, who's Training would you want to attend? The DXB approach or the Area guys who repeatedly put you in the hold (at the requirement of the approach) :)

[Ophion]

just curious, who's Training would you want to attend? The DXB approach or the Area guys who repeatedly put you in the hold (at the requirement of the approach) :)

I'd definitely be interested in having a behind the scenes look at Area. See how it all works from the other end of the radio.

[10 DME ARC]

I would love this to happen, i have seen it work in the UK not just in emergencies but every day operations.
For example if we could get over that speed control is for a reason and reducing by your self is not good, example the B777 crew who without warning reduced to 150kt at 20nm straight in this morning during the early morning Far East inbound wave! Luckily it was spotted quickly and they were pulled out to do another 30nm extra! All that was lost was a landing gap! If you are given a speed it is for a reason! When I first came here seven years ago EK crews would never reduce before telling you now we see it daily!!??
Before APP moved to DWC we had lots of pilots come around, now very few! As for approach telling area to put a/c in hold well its done by a computer program called AMAN now!

[JAARule]

Suggested topics for the meeting:

- Use of full length of the runway instead of wasting 100s of metres when no other aircraft are at the holding points (eg: M13).
- When insisting that aircraft commanders "expedite", switch off the red stop lights at the same time as issuing a line up clearance.
- Provide track miles on first contact with APP (like we were told would happen when the new STARs came in) so pilots have an idea of the profile.

Now what can we do for you?

How about:

If you are given a speed it is for a reason! When I first came here seven years ago EK crews would never reduce before telling you now we see it dailyI couldn't agree more, you see it every day.

[Tower Ranger]

Departing from full length on RWY30R makes any departure dependant on 30L arrivals and also means A/C of a lower wake category require additional spacing if lining up from M13A/N9 so it slows down the departure rate.

[Monarch Man]

- Provide track miles on first contact with APP (like we were told would happen when the new STARs came in) so pilots have an idea of the profile.
Not going to change or improve given the various nationalities and previous experience.
When ever I hear an American/Canadian etc accent I expect the usual dive and drive, speed up, slowdown type of service, and the track miles if offered are usually wildly inaccurate. This used to annoy me, now it's merely what I expect.
If I hear a European/UK and sometimes antipodean accent I generally get a better idea of track miles and profile management, and I guess it's reflective of the types of airspace the hardworking guys and gals came from previously.

Now what can we do for you

Speed control and an early indication of what I am capable of with regards to profile v speed. The one thing that continues to frustrate me is the crews that decide the will fly their vunderbus or John Deere to a slow hover at 10 miles because they don't understand our company (EK) stabilisation policy, or they are dumb.

[White Knight]

- Use of full length of the runway instead of wasting 100s of metres when no other aircraft are at the holding points (eg: M13).

Maybe I missed something on the 'Performance A' course I did all those years ago???? :ugh::hmm:

[White Knight]

The one thing that continues to frustrate me is the crews that decide the will fly their vunderbus or John Deere to a slow hover at 10 miles because they don't understand our company (EK) stabilisation policy, or they are dumb.

Seconded:ok:

And why do I still see people twirling the speed knob when we are under positive speed control from ATC:rolleyes:? If you cannot fly at a certain speed then at least have the courtesy to tell the boys and girls downstairs...

[Emma Royds]

This is perhaps more appropriate for the boys and girls down at SZC but I will welcome anything that brings an end to the descent clearances that come with 'level in one minute' or 'rate 1000 or better' etc.

I understand the rationale behind such instructions but why can't we just have a NOTAM for Dubai stating that the minimum rate of descent prior to the STAR should be 1000 feet per minute, unless otherwise advised?

If the time spent adding these caveats was added up, I could perhaps recite War and Peace quicker! :}:}

[10 DME ARC]

Emma - level in a minute or 1000ft/min is a ACC thing, DXB CTR has a NOTAM'd min decent rate of 500ft/min. Not many people do that mind you!:ugh:

[Smirre13]

This is perhaps more appropriate for the boys and girls down at SZC but I will welcome anything that brings an end to the descent clearances that come with 'level in one minute' or 'rate 1000 or better' etc.

Hi Emma, this is being discussed and might get published in the future.
We dislike having to say it all the time as well. It just wastes precious little R/T time we have.
For now just helps us out on Area and give us the requested rate, you wouldn't believe how quickly we run out of levels for acft approaching the hold. And having multiple acft running towards, e.g. DESDI to hold, at the same level does not help our stress levels. :ugh:

I'd definitely be interested in having a behind the scenes look at Area. See how it all works from the other end of the radio. :D

Ophion, please come visit and see why we do, what we do. Send me a PM or contact the SZC directly. I welcome visitors!

[Monarch Man]

Hi Emma, this is being discussed and might get published in the future.
We dislike having to say it all the time as well. It just wastes precious little R/T time we have.
For now just helps us out on Area and give us the requested rate, you wouldn't believe how quickly we run out of levels for acft approaching the hold. And having multiple acft running towards, e.g. DESDI to hold, at the same level does not help our stress levels.

I'd also be interested to hear the rational behind the 1500-2000fpm instructions in the hold with aircraft 1000ft below, I seem to recall I read an ASR was submitted to this effect recently.
Are the lines of communication being improved? or is this still a matter for "discussion" :hmm::}

[Smirre13]

I'd also be interested to hear the rational behind the 1500-2000fpm instructions in the hold with aircraft 1000ft below, I seem to recall I read an ASR was submitted to this effect recently.
Are the lines of communication being improved? or is this still a matter for "discussion"How "recently"? Whether that communication got to us at the SZC yet, I wouldn't be able to tell you.
I personally agree 2000fpm is too excessive once in the hold.
I just give "at least 1000fpm" once in the hold.
Before the hold perhaps more, if needed.

I guess just as there are pilots that don't care or understand or are unfamiliar with how it works on the other side of the mic, there are ATC that feels/think/are the same. :uhoh:
Personally I believe the better I understand "the cockpit", the easier it makes my job.

[Monarch Man]

Thanks TOGA, good to see that some on here feel it necessary to play the man rather than the ball.

Nice summation of either a stereotype or your own little inferiority complex on display.
You will note I spoke of my experience and expectations, I also offered a perfectly reasonable explanation as why my experiences now match my expectations.
If you feel these are unfair observations, I guess you'll just have to cope with the disappointment.

[Smirre13]

This is perhaps more appropriate for the boys and girls down at SZC but I will welcome anything that brings an end to the descent clearances that come with 'level in one minute' or 'rate 1000 or better' etc.

Found this in the AIP.
Not sure how long its been there.

AIP ENR 3.6.4 A standard rate of descent of 1000 FT per minute in en-route holding patterns will be used unless otherwise instructed by ATC.

I know the reason we say it so much is because most crews don't comply with the above.

[Bartholomew]

"A standard rate of descent of 1000 FT per minute in en-route holding patterns will be used unless otherwise instructed by ATC."

I have always understood this to be the standard, world-wide, unless otherwise specified.

And I agree... most operators are terrible when applying this.

Another one is "Dubai Approach, ABC XYZ, passing x for y, information z (a/c type).... any speed control for us?"

For goodness sakes guys..... Fly the STAR speeds unless they tell you otherwise....And they can't tell you before your first call-in?????

If they don't say, don't ask... you just sound like a muppet.

There are 14 aircraft in front of you, and 12 behind you.... if they could give you a direct SEDPO... they would!

If they don't.... follow the STAR and shut up!