Need honest career advice

[johnappleseed123]

Hi,

I'm in my last year of high school in Australia. I need some advice and I want the honest truth from anyone who could help as I have lost hope in chasing the dream.

I've always been driven to be a pilot, ultimately flying for the airlines. However, through rigorous research I've discovered this is far from reality for a lot of people in my position so I have come to terms with just doing a degree and having a comfortable career. From research I realised it is difficult to be a successful pilot for a number of reasons such as a surplus of people like myself, for example too many pilots on their PPL or CPL looking for jobs, high cost of training, poor airline employment, tough economy in the industry right now.

My question is what is the state of aviation right now and will it stay that way? Also, if it is worth seeking a career as a pilot and what the chances are of landing a gig, as well as what kind of commitment I would have to be prepared for to make it happened. Finally, is it worth it?

[AA350XWB]

Hi,

Yes, your research is correct. Too many unemployed pilots lying around and the cost of training is increasing year by year.

I'd advice you too go for a degree then look into pilot training. This is because when you finish with your training you are given license but you still are a high school pass-out. Degree will give some security in case you don't make it to the airlines for some reasons. Also incase you make it to the airlines but unable to fly in the future for medical/etc reasons you can fallback to a normal career.

Aviation industry changes every 6 months so the thing you should worry about is not what it is right now, but what it will be when you get your license. Generally you should assume a 1-2year waiting period for a job and another 2-4 years to build those hours to land in an airline like Qantas,Emirates,Lufthansa,Qatar,Etihad and so on...all the big guys.

Ofcourse if you want to live up to your dream you have to get out of your comfort zone. There will be struggle at first...but reward at the end.

Is it worth it?

YES.

[grandfather]

The million dollar answer to this question is "only YOU can find the right answer".

I will tell you why.
1. Most young people join flying school out of a romantic notion of what an airline pilot's life is like....playing hide and seek amongst the clouds, wearing a smart uniform, having the lives of hundreds in your hands. No doubt a wonderful notion.....nothing better than being able to do with your life what is thrilling to you.
2. This rose coloured vision lasts till you get your CPL, ATPL.
3. Armed with the CPL you now look for opportunities.
4. And keep looking for the next 3 to 7 years
5. you now start dealing with frustration
6. Meanwhile your friends have gone into reasonably well paying careers, have a life and are moving along. You, on the other hand are getting more and more desperate as the days pass, IR validity expires, CPL validity nearing its end....
7. Almost at the end of your patience (and money), at last you land a job....and are overjoyed at the prospect of shelling out MORE than what you paid to the flying school, just to get a type rating.

Maybe you can handle all this and more. Maybe you have the strength of character (AND dosh) to keep the 'dream' alive through crushing disappointments, or maybe you don't.

All I'm saying is, take a good hard look at yourself and at your circumstances and then answer the question: Is it worth it?

[redsnail]

It's been a while since I have trained and worked in Australia. Have you looked at the Dununda forum for the current info?

I would research the most common way into the airlines in Australia. Note, the competition is unbelievably tough and yes, the vast majority who start training will never get there. Harsh but true.
Then look at the Asian and ME airlines, see what they want. eg Qatar run a self sponsor cadetship scheme that "may" be worth a look. (Caveat emptor etc).

Is the traditional way in Australia still viable? eg Instructor, charter/bush pilot, multi IFR, regional airline pilot still working? (Usually cheaper training as you can just get the CPL and add the IR later once you're working. Tax break)

Once you have those answers, you should be able to come up with a plan.

[Diesel Pilot]

Hi,

I'm in my last year of high school in Australia. I need some advice and I want the honest truth from anyone who could help as I have lost hope in chasing the dream.

I've always been driven to be a pilot, ultimately flying for the airlines. However, through rigorous research I've discovered this is far from reality for a lot of people in my position so I have come to terms with just doing a degree and having a comfortable career. From research I realised it is difficult to be a successful pilot for a number of reasons such as a surplus of people like myself, for example too many pilots on their PPL or CPL looking for jobs, high cost of training, poor airline employment, tough economy in the industry right now.

My question is what is the state of aviation right now and will it stay that way? Also, if it is worth seeking a career as a pilot and what the chances are of landing a gig, as well as what kind of commitment I would have to be prepared for to make it happened. Finally, is it worth it?

I'm employed in Australia, and am an entry level instructor so I'll give you my take.

If you've always wanted to do it, then you should go for it. Life is too short not to IMO. This is what I did, but you need to do your homework.

There are plenty of full time FEE-HELP funded programs which incur little out of pocket expenses, which if I had my time again I would be looking at. Some of these programs are even tied in with degrees from universities, so you can end up with the best of both worlds.

Keep your expectations realistic. You won't earn much money as an entry level pilot (expect MUCH less than what you might be thinking) and the road to the airlines, at the moment, is pretty much non existent. I say at the moment as the industry does change, for better and for worse.

You need to look at things on a national and international scale to keep your career moving, i.e. maybe relocating interstate/internationally to take advantage of an opportunity.

Finally be prepared to keep paying even after your basic training is finished, i.e. upgrades, type ratings etc it all costs money so the more you have the better. Paying for things doesn't really stop until you are experienced enough an employed in a company large enough and willing to cover these costs. This is the reality.

If you want anymore specific info feel free to shoot me a PM.

[BJTW]

Hi, not to sound bleek but how can you say at your age " I've given up the dream without even trying??" Seriously with that attitude I wouldn't even start!!

You say it's all you've ever wanted but if that was the case you'd fight, get knocked back, pick yourself up and fight on for it.

A true aviator would fly carrying pigs :mad: if they had to purely because they love to be in the air and would do what it takes to achieve their goal.

What you DON'T want to do is get into your later years, look up at the skies and say "I could have done that"



You have one life time! My true advice to you is if you if its your real passion and you don't just want to impress your friends with a uniform, then I would get focussed, blank out those negative people and say to yourself "where there's a will there's a way" you"ll find its the real enthusiastically, NO and CANNOT is NOT IN MY VOCABULARY and I will succeed and get work are the people that go all the way.

After all someone has to get the job why not let it be YOU!!
I will tell you a true little story! When I was young I had a horse and was so afraid of failing I said to my dad "I'm not going to win anything" with that and having booked to go to a show the next day my dad said "right I'm going to cancel transport and you're not going to go" I got in a real panic and was upset as I could see he really meant it, so I said why not? He said to me "well with that negative attitude I'm not wasting my money just for you to go and fail" so after an hour and a stern word with myself I said "dad please let me go" he said why. To which I replied I'm going to win a rosette. He said ok but I don't want to hear anything other than I will win. That night I talked myself into I will I can I will I can and bloody hell the day of the show I came back with a Silver Cup, yep I did it. After that on the horse circuit I became a name that others new and others then said as I overheard "oh god it's her again we don't have a chance" so think about that!

[iPahlot]

I'd agree with absolutely everything mentioned above.

There are two types of pilots out there; the ones that will be persistent, flexible and willing to tough it out, coping with the frustrations and knockbacks. Willing to take a few beatings, dust themselves off and go again. These are the ones that have the right attitude and that will make it to an airline.

Then there are the ones that don't... and with the exception of a very small few, they won't make it.

It's not an easy industry to be in, it's fickle, a good majority of owners are borderline sociopaths or bi-polar, and the going can be very tough. Working out remote is no cakewalk, but then again if you go in with an open mind and don't expect things to be like they are in the city, then it's also not really that bad and the friends you'll make will last a lifetime.

Getting a degree is a good idea either way, both as a backup and airlines often look on degree holders more favorably.

The number one rule with success in aviation (if you have the determination). Don't be a c*&7! It's a simple rule, but you'd be surprised how many people forget how small aviation is. If you don't know a guy/girl, one of your mates will!

[wonderland]

Want to stand on your own 2 feet? Try the RAAF.

[johnappleseed123]

AA350XWB

I think your right. A solid degree as backup then I can give flying a shot and if plan's fail then move into back up career. It would give me security and your also correct about the industry changing every now and then so my mind set should be long term.

grandfather

I think your spot on in terms of asking myself if it's really what I want. From someone like me, who has never experienced the industry it looks very rewarding and shiny but the reality is much different. I guess it is really a question of how much I want it and if I'm prepared to do what it takes. Watching my friends move up in their careers, get promotions, pay rises etc while I scavenge for a low paying GA/regional job would be difficult.

redsnail

I agree. I will checkout Dununda forums. From my research perspective, the traditional way seem's to be the only viable way in this day and age. Cadet ships and such are few and far with only a number of them active. From the top of my head, Sharp, Qatar, British Airways FPP, I think rex? Maybe even Jet star. However these cost big money and are extremely competitive so realistically they are not a reliable way into the industry. Going back to what I said before, traditional way looks to be the only option.

Diesel Pilot

True about going for it, life being short etc. There are a good number of FEE-HELP supported programs such as Flight Training Adelaide's courses and University of South Australia offers it's Bachelor of Aviation with the option of 4th year flight training as well as a bit of shark spotting work experience which seem's like a nice option. My only concern with that would be the aviation degree before it which does not give many options in terms of a back up career but takes up 3 years which could be used for flying. I'm aware of the low pay as well as tough journey ahead. Relocating is something I am prepared to do however money is a big factor which I would need to consider.

BJTW

What your saying is right. If i really wanted it, I would do it regardless. I guess due to my nature, regardless of what it is I approach it with a plan and back up and analyse it before making and commitments. I guess with aviation that won't cut it. The bottom line I think is once again how much I want it and if I'm prepared for the commitment.

iPahlot

Getting a degree makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Not too sure about airlines favoring degree holders however it would be good to have a back bone in case things go awry.

wonderland

I have looked into RAAF. I thought about it for a while. It would give me a very strong start to my aviation career as well as plenty of experience however I realised it was not for me, so I'm focusing on GA/regional/airline stuff for now.

[Luke SkyToddler]

It's always been pretty bloody tough to crack into the pilot market in Aus / NZ, nothing has changed in that regard.

What HAS changed is that 20 or 30 years ago, you could look forward to making a very good salary and having a nice life, once you'd done the hard yards.

Nowadays, the career progression is a lot less clear cut and a lot less rewarding. The glory days of Qantas are gone and they're not coming back. The only hiring that's happened for years now is in the low cost sector, which means in practice that even if you do make it onto a Boeing or a 'bus, you'll be paying for the rating, after which you'll be getting paid peanuts for a number of years.

I won't go into the whole pros and cons argument with the "cadetships" except to remind you that they exist, they're bloody hard to get, and you're the right age to apply. Even if you're successful though, a mortgage size debt is not something to be considered lightly.

If that doesn't grab you, then you need to do the sums and allow for a few worst case scenarios and decide if you can afford to do it the old-school way or not.

[johnappleseed123]

Luke SkyToddler

I agree about the cadetships. There are a number of them circulating around in AUS right now, not as much as before with the absence of the Virgin and Qantas programs, but they are there. Very competitive and would carry a big financial load on my shoulders. I think in the end, the old school way would probably be my best bet, but it carries it's own big risks. Would have to weight up some pro's and con's and make a decision.

[grandfather]

Your CRM is good, @johnappleseed123! Like the way you take the trouble to respond to everyone who responded to you.

[johnappleseed123]

grandfather

Haha, thank you. Here's your response too.

[theiceman747]

Hi john,

I think it depends on various factors to go or not to go.

You have to take into account: the age, financial situation, a degree (back up plan), possibility to rellocate far away for many years, family (wife), etc.

You have to sum up all the factors, also i suppose you did a good research of the market status of the unemployed pilots worldwide, and make your maths numbers and think about going or not. Airlines are cutting costs to the max (salary, you pay your own Type Rating, etc). So you can make your numbers and make a clear decision.

I suggest you to go for it if you really want to do it, but take into account that often things in life are different form what we expect.

Reality first.

[johnappleseed123]

theiceman747

It's a case of considering various factors your right. I think looking at doing a back up degree and getting flight training on the side would be the best plan of attack. If the opportunity arises, take it, otherwise keep trying. Money is something to consider too, which supports the idea of studying something, also having an extra job to handle the expenses.

[theiceman747]

Dear John,

Yes, going for a degree whilst or prior of the flight training is a smart move. You must do that, a lot of pilots work on that or try to set a business or have another job to get back if aviation doesn't work.

Depending on your age, I would go for a degree if you are young enough and the go for aviation. If you are on thirties, then you are on hurry if you want to start a career on aviation. Ageism discrimination is true whatever anyone will say, things are that for example some carriers state during their hiring process: "experience commensurate with age", that means that if you are 30 and 1000 TT you are in a bad position to make it.

Also consider the financial part very seriously, don't :mad: your life for aviation because there's any guarantee that anyone will find a job on the airlines 100% sure. So if you can pay your trianing without debt, then it's whole different status to start your career than if you take a lon that you will have to pay-back at a ratio of 500/1000 USD a month.

PM if you need any advise! :ok: Good luck!