Furniture into storage

[Whenurhappy]

I'm helping a friend's family get ready for a big move oversea, where everything apart from clothes and personal effects are going into storage. The SP is away at the moment and I was present when the assessor visited to calculate the volumes. There were two surprises (and we've had two overseas storage moves in the past): the assessor was uncompromising - garden furniture will not be stored at the public expense, nor would be lawn mowers, strimmers etc. these have never been a problem in the past for us, however the paperwork from Agility confirms this. Anyone have a similar and recent experience of this? Any workarounds? My colleague has some very nice teak garden furniture, and as you can imagine, they are a bit peeved to be told, in effect, to get rid of it...

[Melchett01]

Not so much experience of trying to shift garden furniture, but experience of dealing with Agility ... If ever there was a name that is undeserved it's Agility's!

Deployed on ops last year, an odd one out the normal scope for Middle East OOAs, and as I had to fly civair was told to send my GSR, Kevlar etc through the movers out to my location. Rather than military movers as I had thought it would be, Agility had the contract for moving kit and as I was in an unusual digital appointment as a LNO my location didn't appear on their list other than for MFO moves by sea. I argued until I was blue in the face that I needed my body armour and helmet and that it was a matter of operational urgency and potentially a risk to life without it. All I got from them was 'you shouldn't have packed them separately if you needed them', this having been directed to send them via the 'system'. In the end, a semi-formal complaint to my unit QM got my kit pulled back from Agility and sent via DHL - arriving some 2+ months ahead of Agility's timelines.

All I can say is that Agility are not agile, they are complete jobsworths with little understanding of what we do and what our requirements are. I'd like to say they are the usual standard for the cheapest bidder for MOD contracts, but they aren't even that good. In short, they won't do anything at all that isn't written down in some policy or contract that you don't actually have sight of.

All I can unfortunately say is if Agility is handling this, either be prepared to store kit at private expense or try and find a very friendly QM somewhere who might be able to let your friends have access to a corner of a storage shed somewhere or even cheap rates on a disused garage, because Agility won't, in my experience budge. If they wouldn't shift on a RtL issue I'd be stunned if they had since actually started giving a sh1t about people now.

Utter utter jobsworths of the worst possible kind - good luck!

[Old-Duffer]

So, if Agility are a pain in the butt, bring it to the attention of the powers that be and write to your MP about it.

Your T&Cs don't require you to be disadvantaged by a move overseas and you are not required in natural justice to suffer a loss, consequent upon your military service obligations. What part of your remuneration package compensates you for disposing of personal property? I thought not - get stuck in. Michael Fallon is the name of the SofS for Defence - tell him you think his trading with Agility is bad for morale and will bring the services into disrepute!

Old Duffer - on the warpath!

[Pontius Navigator]

Petrol powered stuff would be problematical.

Teak furniture, treat with Danish Oil, put in dining room, table cloth, China service, job done.

[Courtney Mil]

Old-Duffer,

My heart agrees with you. But any complaint would most likely be met with a response along the lines of, "they are acting in accordance with their contract."

Agility may be worthless jobsworths, but the real blame here rests with the MoD/Government idiots that allowed yet another important part of military life to be contracted out to the lowest bidder with no care for the poor sods that have to live with the results of their decision.

Remember this the next time you hear a politician tell you how much they value their servicemen (in a gender-neutral sense).

Pontius,

love your idea. Petrol powered items should not be a problem if they are drained and flushed. But Agility will probably argue that they cannot certify that the machinery is safe and I'm sure that their contract has clauses that support that.

Another bunch of arses that see defence contracts as wonderful milk cows with worthless, money-saving, not-going-to-be-my-problem blotter-jockeys signing it off.

How valued do you all feel now?

[kintyred]

It's not Agility that you should be venting your rage against, it's the incompetent MoD bureaucrat who wrote the contract. Or perhaps more accurately the lazy VSO who knew that this contract was about to be let and did nothing to ensure that it would be fit for purpose.

[Courtney Mil]

^^^ Exactly. ^^^

[Pontius Navigator]

Had a contract issue with P&O about their air charter "it is the rule of the charter company". I pointed out that they were the contractee who had written the Statement of Requirement and not the contractor setting out terms.

[Courtney Mil]

Whenurhappy,

Your friend needs to go to the most senior person he or she can gain access to and get them to make a really big issue out of this. If no joy there, escalate it to HQ level. If no joy there plug into someone in MoD.

At some point someone should say, "why am I being bothered with this" and **** on the level below to make them sort it out.

[asw28-866]

'At some point someone should say, "why am I being bothered with this" and **** on the level below to make them sort it out.'

Courtney Mil's universal first law of command/management/governance, brilliant! :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

And your point is?

What else can a serviceman do?

The use of reason and cries of "fairness" gets you nowhere. Escalate.

I love the Courtney Mil's Universal Law. :ok:

[Roadster280]

And at some point of escalation, someone will say "There's no money. What do you you want, bombs or garden furniture?"

Thus conflating two entirely distinct issues to those that serve (or have served), but to anyone else, it's all on the defence budget. Perhaps there ought to be a personnel budget that is entirely separate from equipment, ordnance etc. Even outside the MOD.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

But also at some point of escalation, too many will say they want a job outside the Services.
Which is why the RAF and Army are under strength.

p.s. How's that Reserve Forces recruitment going?
A: Brilliant! - because we've moved the targets down below Actual. Leaving another 9,000 to find for the Army in the last 3 years (conveniently just after the current boss retires). Currently recruiting at 1,000 a year.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/426880/QPR_Apr2015.pdf (and follow the link on p19 to see that wonderfully Italian approach - "Whatever I hit, I call it the target!")

[drustsonoferp]

Rather ironic that this topic should rear its head just as one of the headlines on the defence intranet is about how great the deal is now for overseas tours.

At least now there are some extra visits to see kids left in schools in the UK - it might be possible to check in on your furniture if you've left it with someone responsible.

[Bob Viking]

Maybe I could offer the flip side to this argument?
I actually found Agility to be reasonably easy to deal with and very accommodating when we moved across the Atlantic. We're about to return so I hope they haven't changed too much.
We stored teak garden furniture and a petrol lawn mower amongst other things. This was managed through White and Company in Telford.
It's very easy to jump on the bandwagon and make these civvy companies out to be a boil on the arse of the MOD but sometimes they're not as bad as you think.
Now if we were talking about Modern Housing Solutions (or whatever they're called this week) I would agree wholeheartedly with any and all criticism.
I have no idea what has gone wrong in the case highlighted but it seems odd when compared to my own situation regarding very similar items.
BV

[Pete oprobe]

It's a reflection of overseas tours. EVERYTHING is cut to the bone! JSP 752 is revised on a regular basis and slowly pecks away at saving the MOD money. He's luck to have a storage element in his move, I didn't and the tiny property we had to accept meant virtually giving away lots of our property.
You will find it "is included in your LOA/Disturbance"............

[BEagle]

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote: But also at some point of escalation, too many will say they want a job outside the Services.
Which is why the RAF and Army are under strength.

It seems that the chickens are coming home to roost. From the BBC:

A quarter of those serving in the UK's armed forces want to quit, a Ministry of Defence survey (MoD) suggests.

The rate of personnel planning to leave, or who have given their notice, increased from 16% in 2011 to 25% now.

Those planning to stay in the service for as long as they could also fell from 41% in 2011 to 34% now.


More at Quarter of personnel 'preparing to quit UK armed forces' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32851668) .

But don't despair: An MoD spokeswoman said: "We continually strive to ensure our people feel valued and that their contribution and sacrifice is recognised.

:hmm:

[Hangarshuffle]

Sniggering at this thread to be honest. In the hard faced first past the post world post-armed forces world we are now inhabiting, I strongly suggest you smash the teak garden furniture to pieces, get pissed up, have a bonfire with it in the garden and then piss all over it to put it out! You'll attract more interest, even sympathy.

[Courtney Mil]

What on earth does that mean?

Please try to make some sense.

It would seem, judging by the number of responses to the thread, that it already attracts a good deal of interest and sympathy.

Do you just come here to attack or do you have a real point to make?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The root of the problem is that someone has decided that what was previously taken care of, isn't.
The solution relies on being able to find out who that was and what the basis for their decision was.
An overseas posting means, if the Forces Covenant is worth anything, that either the Service stores ALL your stuff (subject to reasonableness, and pretty much everyone has garden furniture) or compensates you as part of the allowances package. Neither appears to be happening here.
However, it is now impossible to find out who made that decision, or how, in practically every sector of Government. This is not accidental. The contracting out of services very rarely provides economic benefit in the long run. Profits are made by trimming services, wages/benefits, or ignoring training. It does however allow Government to hide their decision-making, not least by waving the commercial-in-confidence flag. Government simply cuts the budget (or awards contracts that mean a complete service cannot be run) and lets a lesser level of the system take the blame. The purpose of agencies and consultants is to provide someone to blame other than the politician responsible.
Customer services and complaints departments are there to handle your problem, not solve it. The last thing anyone in Government wants is that you should be able to contact a decision-maker and ask a few pertinent questions. If there were any prospect of that, human nature would incline you to pursue the problem. Instead, you give up quickly because you are faced by a immense, monolithic, impenetrable wall of administration.
There is no effective accountability if you do not know who can be called to account.

[Willard Whyte]

If the garden furniture is worth keeping then surely it's worth keeping at one's own expense?

Would one expect a classic car to be kept at government, i.e. public, expense?

Man up! I'm guessing the overseas posting was't a 'go, or get sacked' choice.

[4everAD]

If the garden furniture is worth keeping then surely it's worth keeping at one's own expense?

Would one expect a classic car to be kept at government, i.e. public, expense?

Man up! I'm guessing the overseas posting was't a 'go, or get sacked' choice.

Really? One could take the car at public expense (almost) through Marchwood, you should never be disadvantaged financially because of a an overseas move. Do you have any idea how much the RAF is struggling to get people to go overseas? Why do you think they came up with that pathetic attempt at improving the offer? No one really wants to go any more as the whole things costs too much and your attitude compounds that sentiment.

edited to add: Prior to volunteering for some US posts you have to ring up the Unit so you can receive a brief warning you of the financial implications of volunteering i.e. you'll be massively out of pocket.

[Whenurhappy]

We stored teak garden furniture and a petrol lawn mower amongst other things.

As did we in two previous tours; not the case now, it seems (and the contract is quite specific).

Sniggering at this thread to be honest. In the hard faced first past the post world post-armed forces world we are now inhabiting, I strongly suggest you smash the teak garden furniture to pieces, get pissed up, have a bonfire with it in the garden and then piss all over it to put it out! You'll attract more interest, even sympathy.
HS - it's not about teak furniture. It is about an arbitrary decision to exclude some possessions from storage and that even more impediments have been put in the way of serving overseas. Try explaining that to spouses who have to give up good jobs, in the certainty they can't work at Post - and that a selection of their treasured possessions either can't be put in storage, sent to Post, or will be damaged/lost in transit (clearly you haven't had to explain that to an angry partner)

However, it is now impossible to find out who made that decision

The only way, apparently, is to put casework up to PACCC in Glasgow (a 6 week turnaround...) as the SP is currently overseas in a tasty part of the world. The Support Unit is prepared to forward a case, but as it is a contractual matter...

Do you have any idea how much the RAF is struggling to get people to go overseas? Why do you think they came up with that pathetic attempt at improving the offer? No one really wants to go any more as the whole things costs too much and your attitude compounds that sentiment.

I quite agree. I've welcomed the 6 School Children's Visits pa that we get, but apart from a slightly improved Disturbance Grant (up to the value it was almost 20 years ago) there's little in the package that serves as an inducement, especially in Hardship posts, where we are. Careerwise, I've gone past caring, but the bottom line is, if you want to get promoted, avoid overseas tours. A civilian reporting chain does a service person no favours, regretfully. Remembering Gilbert and Sullivan:

Stay close to your desk and never go to see
and you'll be the ruler of the Queen's Navy

And let's not mention the how partners' careers are damaged (and the huge loss of income).

[Rotax]

Firstly, to the OP: I'd advise your friends to seriously consider selling their white goods rather than putting them into storage. When we went to the States for four years, all ours went into storage (care of Whites, iirc). On our return, they were covered in mould, despite our following the instructions for cleaning, drying etc. Unsurprisingly, there was no sympathy; the reply was (fairly, I suppose), "Well, they must have still been damp when they went into storage." The mould that appeared on our sofas was also explained away in the same manner however; they were in such a state that we had to throw them away and buy new.

I'm on my second overseas tour now (first to the USA and then after a couple of years in the UK, to Germany), and there have been a whole host of ballsaches and setbacks to contend with. Amongst others:



We had ten days between the day we found out that we were going to the States, and actually leaving the UK.


Our PEs were airfreighted out to the States, but due to a change in contract they were sea-freighted home (taking a good six weeks).


DIO were not able to source us a suitable house in time for our move to Germany, so we spent the first three months of the tour moving around from one holiday home to another while they found us something suitable.


LOA has been heavily reduced, once by 40% while we were in the States, and last month by about 70%.
Despite this, I don't understand why more people don't apply for overseas tours. Even with the LOA reductions, I have had a much better standard of living than I ever had in the UK (although admittedly my wife has always been at home with the kids so there's no second wage to consider. Despite haemorrhaging money for the first year in the USA, we came home well upon the deal, and it's looking like it'll be the same over here as well.

The kids have had a 'better' (IMHO) education than they would have got in England (plus becoming fluent in a foreign language), and with boarding school looming before we move back to the UK, the doubling of the number of school children's visits is welcome. We also have the opportunity to do far more travelling than we ever would have done if we'd have been in the UK for the last 10 years.

There's plenty to grumble about overseas, but equally Prune seems bereft of people waxing lyrical about how life in the real RAF is improving at the moment and how the budget cuts aren't affecting them. It really isn't all doom and gloom. I've still got two years to go over here and I'm already working on how I can extend, and where the next overseas adventure will be to...

[Whenurhappy]

The only sensible option is to sell, at a loss, and buy in future, at a cost. Where something may become outdated or degraded,then selling may be an option but why should you be placed at a disadvantage?

Clearly; my point exactly. We were lucky in that we let our home fully-furnished, so apart from a few precious objects, they either stayed in our house or accompanied us to Post,

[Pontius Navigator]

And let's not mention the how partners' careers are damaged (and the huge loss of income).
Which is why Lord Garden resigned. His wife worked in London and they could not afford rustication in Gloucestershire.

[Roadster280]

Just a point of order - almost no-one will have teak garden furniture. Not unless they've had it made from the decks of scrapped ships.

Teak is exceptionally rare and costs about 5x more than similar looking South American hardwoods. But they don't have the durability of teak.

If we had a set of genuine teak garden furniture, it would be by far the most expensive furniture in the house. Ours is metal & stone!

[Bob Viking]

You are absolutely right. I (and perhaps Whenurhappy) should have said 'teaked' furniture.

As has been said on here, overseas tours are maybe not what they once were in terms of financial recompense. However, I consider this to be the most valuable experience I have had, both personally and professionally, during my time in the military. Despite the fact we will return to the UK slightly worse off financially I would not change it for anything. I certainly wouldn't have been taking two week family holidays in Hawaii from the UK!

I do fear though that maybe these jobs will become the preserve of married SPs with young kids and a partner who is willing to stay at home to care for kids. Spouses with careers may not enjoy certain tours but horses for courses I suppose.

I think that my family and I have been well looked after on the whole. I didn't expect to get rich and in that regard I have certainly not been dissappointed!

BV:ok:

[Jumping_Jack]

Had two overseas tours that necessitated storage. On both occasions as long as the items were drained and vented there was no problem, same with the garden furniture. All the white good survived too (putting dry tea bags in them worked a treat!). However, on a more recent internal UK move the company assigned to do our move were the most incompetent jobsworths (not the guys doing the humping and dumping but the 'Head Office' planners). Letters to the company, Agility and DSCOM to outline the problems met with a wall of silence....not even an acknowledgement. :ugh:

[Whenurhappy]

Ahh, yes. Head Office staff. In a move a couple of years ago from Germany, we were advised that the Truck would be with us as soon as they dropped off some packing materials 'round the corner' in Paderborne. I then pointed out - rather politely for me - that they may wish to consult an atlas or a GPS; we lived a good 8 hours away at an ISODET.



AN UPDATE

After a few phone calls, another assessor visited and confirmed to our friends that, on this occasion, garden furniture wouldbe allowed in storage, but that this was a favour and very much at the discretion of the storage company. No decision on the lawn mower!

Again, this all sounds trivial, but those who have been sent abroad know how stressful a move can be - housing, schools, cars, jobs - all being juggled simultaneously, and what is not needed are further buggerance factors that, at best, are arbitrary. Those who know me (or do so from my posts) know that in addition to Ops, we have lived in 4 different overseas locations; with two being decidedly non-benign, with my current location requiring daily use of a CAV. However, peacetime UK rules are rigidly applied meaning that, technically, I cannot commute from the residence to work in a CAV, as it should only be used for official transport. In spite of my wife and I receiving very expensive (and fun) training in use of said vehicles, we have to use our soft-skinned estate for commuting. I just hope the terrorists only work office hours! If anyone doubts the risk, Google Brigadier Saunders...not that I'm in Greece.

[FJ2ME]

We are currently serving overseas and our storage effects include all the discussed items: We have garden furniture, petrol-powered garden tools (drained and flushed) and all manner of other things. Our Agility contract was locally handled by T H White and they were extremely helpful and nothing got argued about. To be honest, if you are within your capacity allowance, I really can't see what their problem is with non-dangerous stuff like garden chairs. They get paid for every m3 so its in their interest to store as much as possible!

This was all 2 years ago however, so things may have changed...We haven't got the stuff back yet either...

[Whenurhappy]

FJ2ME,

I've just looked at our paperwork, also with Whites and it states that for all move and storage combinations:

'Trailers (any type), caravans, garden sheds, greenhouses, wooden garden furniture'

Are not stored or carried at the public expense. So we've been lucky that the contractor that we used, and that our friends have been allocated is flexible, however it is a case of 'rules is rules' it seems.

About 12 years ago we made a claim against a contractor when we moved from Benson. One rather scrawny lad was left to unload the truck and I arrived as he was trying to unload a large oak Georgina chest of drawers from the deck of the truck. It fell to the ground and the bracket feet were smashed. He had also dragged it - unwrapped - along the deck, damaging the finish. I received the usual 'well, that's what insurance is for' nonsense, but I was determined that the contractors were held to account for negligences (as repairs would have been in the hundreds of pounds). I took the matter up with the British Association of Removers who ruled that the liability for damage did, indeed, rest with the carrier, who undertook to have the item repaired. After a week of unpacking, we started to think where some of our pictures were. We checked everywhere and ran the contractors who were sure that they had unloaded everything. A couple of weeks later we received a phone call saying that a box of pictures was up at a depot in North Wales, and would we like to pick the, up? I, err, persuaded them that they might like to deliver them - which they did.

[Melchett01]

Blimey, this really does make for depressing reading and an example of when words and deeds really don't marry up in any way shape or form.

Thank heavens for the "I wish I hadn't said that" thread being resurrected to bring a bit of levity back to proceedings!

[London Eye]

I moved overseas this month and had no problem storing teak furniture and petrol lawnmower (guidance said this was ok if properly drained and ventilated) so either I was very lucky or the rules have changed VERY recently!

[AutoBit]

My experience of moving a few years ago was mixed. I found the removal guys who came around to collect my stuff going into storage, but also being shipped, polite and professional.

Unfortunately when my un-accompanied pack reached me there was a huge amount of damage done, mainly on account of my fragile items (pictures etc) being placed at the bottom of the pack and the heavy boxes placed on top of them, and a bureau desk that I stupidly sent out was totally destroyed.:ugh:

My advise is this. Don't ship or store anything that is valuable and fragile. See if you have some friends who will be willing to look after this stuff for the duration of your tour. Finally take photos of your furniture prior to it leaving your possession so you have evidence of the original state it was in.

The website below gives you guidance on the standards you should expect.

BAR : British Association of Removers - domestic commercial overseas removals (http://www.bar.co.uk)

[Whenurhappy]

AutoBit,

These were the people I went to some years ago when furniture was mishandled. They have an arbitration service, and whilst working for their members, they also are keen to preserve their reputation.


On one of our moves, our furniture went into storage with a company based at (former) RAF Carlisle. They had this fully automated warehouse, with effects stored in ISO containers. They were very flexible approach to their business, and would happily allow additions to storage without too much fuss. Unfortunately, they lost the storage contract whilst we were abroad; First thing we knew was when we contacted them to get our effects and was told Agility had transhipped them to a company in the Midlands. Our furniture had been put in the classic wooden crates and everything seemed to be accounted for; two years later we are still saying 'what happened to, you know, that thingy that we put in storage?' I guess we'll never know - did we get rid of it or did it go into storage?


I suppose it is inevitable that there will be disruption and heartache in these moves, however the small consignments (I doubt the volumes have changed for many decades), increasingly tighter restrictions on what can be moved or stored - and added to the lack of support when moving overseas, especially if you are 'diaspora' - just seems to make the moves unnecessarily difficult.

EDITED TO ADD: for anyone moving over the next 6 months, get booked in quickly, because of the huge surge of unit moves from Germany. We had this two years ago in our previous move which was along the lines of 'where is your unit moving to?'