Shackleton C1?

[chevvron]

Just read on another forum that during the Suez crisis of '56, Shackletons were used to transport 28 troops each from Blackbushe to the middle east.
How on earth could they fit that many in?

[scotbill]

At the end of WWii, Lancasters were pressed into service to repatriate some of the thousands of POWs - some of them in the bomb bays!

[Shack37]

Just read on another forum that during the Suez crisis of '56, Shackletons
were used to transport 28 troops each from Blackbushe to the middle east.
How on earth could they fit that many in?


With difficulty and no doubt, more than one got a pilot´s boot in his ear:ouch:

[Shack37]

At the end of WWii, Lancasters were pressed into service to repatriate some
of the thousands of POWs - some of them in the bomb bays!



How did they do that??

[Shackman]

I think Pilot's Notes actually said we could carry 32 'fully armed' troops, with most of their kit going into bomb bay panniers and the troops themselves sitting on the floor or anywhere else they could find. As for strapping in...........! 'Elf 'n Safety would have had a field day, but then doing the job was more important

[Ormeside28]

After the Suez cease fire we brought 36 paratroops back from Nicosia via Idris to Lyneham. They all sat on the floor aft of the main spar, and it was very difficult to go back to the élsan for a pee!! The Major shared the Navs seat. We got them home for Christmas. They even had cups of tea!

[Warmtoast]

ISTR when asked by an MP in parliament why our troops had to travel jammed into a bomber without seats, the government declared that flying in a Shackleton is no worse than travelling in a crowded train, but then how many crowded train journeys last for ten-hours or more?

[radar101]

ISTR when asked by an MP in parliament why our troops had to travel jammed into a bomber without seats, the government declared that flying in a Shackleton is no worse than travelling in a crowded train, but then how many crowded train journeys last for ten-hours or more?




London to Aberdeen in the 1950s. We were sitting on cases in the corridors.

[Rossian]

.....in preparation for the defense of Ballykelly over the anniversary of the Dublin Easter uprising we were dispatched around the country to pick extra police men and dogs from other stations.

My crew went to Kinloss and on the return leg the aircraft was jampacked with plods and dogs (neither of them looking particularly happy at the prospect of four hours round the north of Scotland).

At some point down the outer hebrides I decided to venture down the back to make tea and coffee. And as was standard vaulted over the rear spar and landed firmly in the galley. One dog who was awake (they'd been sedated a bit) tied to his sound asleep handler, sprang at me (trailing his handler) and got me fair and square in the chest. Absolute bloody chaos erupted in that confined space - shouting policemen, snarling dogs (now all awake) me shouting "get this f889ing savage off me" (it was muzzled). Eventually calm was restored with a lot of cursing and kicking.

I never did make the tea and coffee.

Later during the first night shift as they patrolled the dispersals one of the dogs peed on a sodium lamp, was severely shocked and savaged his handler. That IS a true dit.

The Ancient Mariner

[RequestPidgeons]

"Later during the first night shift as they patrolled the dispersals one of the dogs peed on a sodium lamp, was severely shocked and savaged his handler."

**** eppins :)

[Krakatoa]

December 18th. 1956 the cry went up..."..bring the troops home for Christmas..."
Off we went from Aldergrove to Nicosia with a tech. stop at Luqa. The next day loaded up with troops, 28 is the number in my memory.
The co-pilot was last to board after the outside check. The tricky bit was to
get from the rear door to the right hand seat. My feet only touched the floor twice while I was passed over the huddled masses.
We unloaded the troops at St. Mawgan on December 20th.


Forward to June 1958 we were again transporting troops, this time to Nicosia
from Abingdon. Do not remember the reason for this move except the Army
brought their band to play as the troops boarded the Shackletons !

[effortless]

Ma said that pa ferried her from Hucknal to Northolt in a hurricane. I found it hard to believe but he was a short arsed bastard.

[Shackman]

Don't forget that at the time we're talking about (mid-50's) the backbone of Transport Command was the Hastings which could carry approx 50 troops, but were relatively slow, and the standard way of moving servicemen was the troopship. Therefore moving battalions required a lot of aircraft if the troops were needed in a hurry (like most MOD plans!) so other fleets, Shackletons, Varsities, Valettas etc were pulled in to the mix!

[pmills575]

The Shack has a number of "hard points" built into the fuselage floor to which a piece of canvas held by steel cables is fitted, the ends of the cable have a clip which attaches to the floor points. The canvas is used as a back rest. If ferrying troops the crew is reduced to six (from ten). I believe that the normal quoted figure for number of troops carried is up to 33.
Seems that it was quite a common method to move troops in the early days of the Shack.

[54Phan]

I seem to recall seeing a photo taken somewhere in the Middle East of a Shackleton with "White Knuckle Airlines" painted on the fuselage above the wing.

[Valiantone]

Well they did eventually use the wing from the Shackleton design, except they put it on the whistling wheelbarrow


V1

[VX275]

As the Shack was a descendant of the Manchester which was designed at a time when the 'Bomber Transport' was popular I'm not surprised Shacks carried troops as passengers.
The description of the canvas seat back fits in with the arrangements for troops and paratroops in the Manchester and Lancaster to go with the 'Numa' matting on the floor to sit on.
Talking of Bomber Transports is there anyone here who remembers the Argosy's Colonial Policing role that saw it capable of carrying (and dropping) 6 1000 lb bombs.

[GAZSD]

Wing from Bristol Britannia plus engines used for the Whistling Wheelbarrow

[pmills575]

I'm fairly confident that the Argosy used RR Darts not the Brits Proteus. Certainly early Argosies used a derivative of the Avro wing as used on the Shackleton Mk3. It was pointed out to an International model company recently that the Mk2 and Mk3 Shacks had different wings.

pm575

[Wander00]

Certainly the Argosy had RR darts, hence the "whistle". Had not realised that they "borrowed" the wing off the Shackleton though.

[Shackman]

.......was one of the aircraft returning to UK when 205 Sqn disbanded at Changi in '71. We didn't come back en-mass, but each ac and crew did 2 weeks in Gan as the Search and Rescue Crew, so very much a staggered return. A number of 'sartorial' improvements were carried out at the same time (I remember 'go faster' stripes were very much the vogue at the time) and each ac ended up with a name or painting on the nose, as well as a fair bit of what would now be called graffiti elsewhere.

[Richard Woods]

Wander00;

The AWA 650 Argosy Series 100 wing has an Avro project number, it is the Avro Type 733. Drawings still exist, most of which are in the Shackleton drawing archive we have at Coventry along with (weirdly) details of the bomb racks for Argosy - also drawn up by Avro.

Regards,

Rich

[Wander00]

Thanks, I am always amazed at the amount of information that appears on this site. I have learned so much over the years, for which I am most grateful

[aw ditor]

I was told the Argosy "booms" were Meteor aft' fuselages. Hence the flush riveting. Sorry for drift'!

[Wander00]

So that's where they got the idea for "Flight of the Phoenix"...................

[kenparry]

I was told the Argosy "booms" were Meteor aft' fuselages.

Pretty sure that came from the fairies at the bottom of the garden. Argosy booms were much longer than the aft fuselage of a Meteor.

[Hempy]

Other economy measures involved using current production turboprop engines and nacelles from Vickers Viscounts, and making the twin booms out of sections of Gloster Meteor fuselage, since a nightfighter version of that jet was being built under contract by AW at the time.
http://www.aviation-history.com/armstrong-whitworth/aw650.htm

[Whenurhappy]

Pretty sure that came from the fairies at the bottom of the garden. Argosy booms were much longer than the aft fuselage of a Meteor.

They were tail booms left over from the secret programme to 'stretch' the Vampire, to create Vampire C.1 strategic transport ac.;)

[Guernsey Girl II]

The Nimrod had a Trooper role in its original plans, some bits were still with the MR2. The 2nd lox pot I'm sure had conections labeled 'trooper lox'. The fixed and rotary sonobuoy launchers could be removed and blanked for more seats the extra O2 pax masks on the cabin roof marked where the seats were to be fitted. I'm pretty sure the Galley could be removed as well. Not sure the last mod would be entirely popular!

[Rossian]

.....(there always is) that extra crash positions in the Nimrod AEW were also of the canvas and steel rod "corset" type held in with dog clips to recesses in the floor. I only had the one "guided tour" of the beast but distinctly remember thinking to myself "Jesus wept, I thought we were a bit more up to date than this!! What's the rest of it like?"

We found out later.

The Ancient Mariner

[oldpax]

MK2 shacks had them!My crash position on several occasions was between the pilots facing aft.For those that had the same experience remember the silence as the engs were throttled back and waiting for the wheels to touch down?!!!!
In 1960 we did get ready to do trooping flights to I think the Congo ?I seem to recall a rehearsal but I think it only went from BKY to ALD ,cant remember how many on board !

[zetec2]

Richard Wood :

Yes the Argosy had the ability to have bomb racks fitted, saw it once during my Argosy course at Benson for the press in early 62, then again we fitted them when Radfan started (was on 105 in the sandy parts) although never saw them actually hold bombs / weapons, they made very comfy seats to while away the time during pre and after flights out on the bondou whilst supping our ice cold Stims (lemon and for a change, orange, any one remember that ?), they lived in the racking in the role equipment hangar next to Air Movements and took some time unpacking from the crates, I remember it well !. Paul H.

[chevvron]

whenurhappy:
The Vampire transport called the 'Mystery Jet' was only a 6 seater and used the original tailbooms and the original engine.
google 'mystery jet aircraft' for some piccies.

[chevvron]

Intriguing to see a piccie of Argosy XP447 in the bit about the Argosy; I flew in '447 from Benson in '63 or '64!

[Pontius Navigator]

There were some Argosy navs on the Visual Bombing course in 1967 at Lindholme.

[GeeRam]

At the end of WWii, Lancasters were pressed into service to repatriate some of the thousands of POWs - some of them in the bomb bays!

Yup, back in the 90's I met a former POW who came back home by that method.

Mosquito bomb bays were also used to transport a person (usually agents on the BOAC Mossie runs to neutral Sweden) which must have been really fun.....:sad:

http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu98/viscount700/boacmosq.jpg

[Dougie M]

I was on 105 at Khormaksar when we were told that we might have to take on the Shack role of air support up country when 37 was deployed down south. There was a fixed sighting head rigged in the supply aimers window and it was getting quite exciting before common sense returned and 105 (bomber) Squadron returned to box dropping.

[Dougie M]

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/green%20on_zpslxlp7ue1.jpg

[JW411]

Argosy: Darts, Shack mainspar and Meteor booms.

I was on a fairly early course in 1962 and I can remember the possibility of fuselage sponsons; two on each side mounted on hard points from which it was possible to dangle smallish anti-personnel bombs.

I seriously doubt that 1,000 lb bombs were ever contemplated.

[Herod]

ice cold Stims (lemon and for a change, orange, any one remember that ?

Tha' was lucky. We used to go up to Habilayn with a cold-box containing Stims and sandwiches. That was at about 07:00. Come midday, it was luke-warm Stims and inedible sandwiches.

[Dougie M]

In the internal-security fit in 1963 XN814 was modified to accommodate external bomb racks (for 14 bombs) on each side of the lower fuselage; the nose window was equipped as a bomb aimer's position. After successful trials with the "Argi-bomber" the aircraft used in Aden and the Far East were given this modification. There is no evidence that they were operationally used in this offensive role.

[VX275]

I asked the question about bomb racks on the Argosy because as a result of an office clear out I acquired a copy of the A&AEE report on the trials of the EMC aspects of the installation and I'd never of it being used in service. I had though noticed that the Argosy in the RAF Museum at Cosford still has the fittings for them so it must have been a mod carried out on a number of aircraft in the fleet.
And JW411, the report does contain photos of 6 x 1000 pounders.

[A and C]

The Argosy was used for some time by Zantop International Airlines of Willow run Detroit on the long running Logair USAF contract.

The contract was a logistical one moving cargo for the USAF around the southern USA.

A few of the Zantop captains that I know operated on the Logair contract and said that the Argosy was ideal with the aircraft having doors at both ends the ongoing cargo was fed in at one end as the off going cargo was fed out of the other end, the turn around time being limited by how quickly you could get the fuel on for the next sector.

The Argosy was eventually replaced by the Lockheed L188 Electra, an aircraft that could move much more load, much further, much faster.

The Electra was the basis for the Lockheed P3 Orion ......... Sub hunter turned airliner.....Airliner turned Sub hunter.......Is this thread going around in circles ?

[Davef68]

Wing from Bristol Britannia plus engines used for the Whistling Wheelbarrow

You're thinking on the Belfast, which used the Britannia wing (and tailplane) design, albeit with new engines.

And of course, the unbuilt Belfast SC5/41, with wings from a C-141



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/paul1/ShortsSC545.jpg


You do begin to wonder if ion their spare time the designers played mix and match with Airfix kits!

[zetec2]

Looks like an IL76 , did Ruski's steal the plans or did we just give them up like a lot of other aviation treasures ? PH.

[zetec2]

During my time on 105 (flying boat Squadron !) when Radfan was on we didn't fit the bomb racks in anger but did drop leaflets advising of raids up country, we were accompanied by the Twin Pins of 78 with the loudspeakers under the sponsons (anyone remember the Sunday morning tests !) to warn of the upcoming raids, was good to start with breaking open the bundles & scattering the leaflets far & wide just like confetti, then dissent took over & we just threw them out the back and out of the side doors in bundles, oh what fun we had, then waited for the Shacks Hunters and Bucaneers to come and play with their guns and rockets, life was never dull, PH.

[Tinribs]

When I joined the Vs in 1966 I' pretty sure we were told about a plan, first thought about during confrontation, to bring our ground crew out of Singers on benches in the bomb bay.

It seems the plan was kept on the back burner to freight the spanner boys with us if needed to wherever we might go

In my early training I think we were told each operational role had an extra job and maritime aircraft were expected to double as troop transport when needed. To this end troops were often given air rides for the edification of all. Numerous interesting leg pulls went along with the brown jobs

[Dougie M]

Shack and Argosy Majunga


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/2f9d22c2-e22f-4a16-b235-cd0e16c072bd_zpsbzyvmh4o.jpg