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tume
30th Apr 2015, 08:10
Did few searches and found threads but nothing with a definite answer.

The scenario: EASA/FAA qualified. I have few opportunities to work as SIC in the US:

1) Part 135 PC12 (MTOW < 12500lbs no type rating)
2) Part 91(k) CE-560 (MTOW >12500lbs type rating req. for PIC, specific training for SIC)

Both companies OpsSpecs require two pilots (first one has exception that FO can be substituted with a working autopilot), thus in my FAA logbook I could log flying both of these ops as SIC.

The question: Is it proper and possible to log these hours as "Co-Pilot" in my EASA logbook (CPL issued by UK CAA)? EASA Part FCL states:
"Co-pilot flight time. The holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted."

The above leads me to believe all hours could be logged in my EASA logbook as well. Or should I consult UK CAA?

LeadSled
30th Apr 2015, 15:12
tume,
I am not a lawyer, but I would suggest the situation is that you have logged time as required by FAA, that should be entered in the new log book as is, then carefully write an explanation as to the numbers and draw a line under it.

Read the FAA regulations very carefully about what counts as command time in a log book, and get that right. Nobody can require you to change legally logged hours in retrospect.

Then start your new EASA entries.

Last time I looked, UK CAA recognised a "co-pilot" as pilot flying as P1U/S, In Command Under Supervision, but JAA/EASA may well have screwed that up. See CAA CAP 804, S.1, Part E.

tume
30th Apr 2015, 16:22
Thanks for the reply. Just for clarification I am not about to log these in the same logbook: I have separate logbooks for FAA and EASA.

In EASA P1U/S is called PICUS but in these cases I couldn't log that (you can log that only under specific approved training for command upgrade). So I am still looking if I can log "Co-Pilot" (P2).

tume
22nd May 2015, 03:55
Administrator: please move this under "Tech Log" - still looking for advice.

LTCTerry
22nd May 2015, 13:12
Tume,

It's my understanding that you cannot log anything unless you are a "required crew member" or are "the sole manipulator of the controls."

According to Wiki, the PC-12 "is certified for single-pilot IFR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_flight_rules) operations, though operators may choose to use a second flight crew member."

It's what the type certificate says that makes someone second in command, not an ops manual. You can log the time in the PC-12 as PIC if you are "the sole manipulator" but there's no SIC time. If you are logging PIC in the right seat (sole manipulator) the the person is the left seat isn't.

Many Citations are single-pilot aircraft, even if operated by two. If the CE-560's type certificate requires two pilots, then your time will be logable.

Go to www.askacfi.com (http://www.askacfi.com) and search on logging flight time. You'll find pretty much every permutation under the sun there!

Terry

zondaracer
22nd May 2015, 13:53
Actually, under part 135, if you fly a single pilot airplane and OpSpecs require an SIC, you can SIC time. Under part 91, the PIC would require the limitation requiring a SIC in order for the SIC to log the time.

MarkerInbound
22nd May 2015, 14:20
The OP should ask their CAA.


Under FAA rules you can log the 91(k) time and maybe the 135. While Terry is right that you have to be a required crewmember to log the time, 61.51(f)(2) says you can log the time if you are required by the regs the flight is operated under or by the type certificate. So if an insurance company requires a PC-12 F/O for part 91 flights you could not log that time. However 135.101 requires a F/O for passenger IFR flights. So the time flying pax IFR under 135 rules could be logged. However many operators get OPS SPECs paragraph A015 which allows single pilot IFR pax flights. So then you could not log the time. But if the autopilot is written up as inop and deferred the MEL may allow the flight if you have a qualified F/O and so you could log the time. Simple, isn't it.


Again, this applies to FAA logbooks. I have no idea what your CAA wants.

zondaracer
23rd May 2015, 04:06
The UK CAA will accept SIC time in a single engine airplane if you have documentation to prove that an SIC was required.

Lucky8888
24th May 2015, 01:08
Actually, under part 135, if you fly a single pilot airplane and OpSpecs require an SIC, you can SIC time. Under part 91, the PIC would require the limitation requiring a SIC in order for the SIC to log the time.

Not exactly. We are a part 91 w/ 135 and some 121 Opspecs. The Opspecs require two pilots. So, this has nothing to do with any PIC limitation.

zondaracer
24th May 2015, 13:20
Well then, if you are a part 91 wjth Opspecs then you are probably good to log SIC time if the Opspecs have a provision for it.

tume
7th Sep 2015, 03:41
Hey guys an update here. I took the job PC12 FO job (Scenario 2 in main post) and have been flying two months now for this part 135 airline.

In our OpsSpecs it points to our GOM, our GOM has this:
"GOM requires all CFR 14 part 135 flights be operated with a second in command (SIC). Autopilot in lieu of a required SIC is authorized on CFR 14 part 91 operations only."

Further, GOM says:
"xx will operate all revenue flights with two crewmembers."

P91 flight is a rare repositioning/MX flight with no PAX. Legs are flown 50% PF, 50% PM if that makes any difference.


I guess I will shoot an email to UK CAA Personnel Licensing and ask if my flights can be logged under my Euro logbook.