Noise suffered by the people on the ground [Archive]

Tony_SLF

28th Apr 2015, 16:36

Could someone be so kind as to advise on the rules concerning the noise we suffer on the ground?

We live near the University of Warwick on what sometimes feels to be the main north/south route for private helicopters with a steady string on traffic. Whilst most helicopters are a minor annoyance, an increasing number make their presence known by both noise and a physical sensation. It is sometimes necessary for conversation to stop for 30-60 seconds. I have trouble believing this is deemed to be acceptable.

What are the rukes on height and noise ?

Many thanks to anyone kind enough to assist.

Hughes500

28th Apr 2015, 17:56

Basically none

CRAZYBROADSWORD

28th Apr 2015, 18:09

Well given your position outside of Coventry you may pick up some traffic going to ether Coventry or Birmingham airport but it's unlikely there is a popular route North South there as that would take traffic into Birmingham cta . As for the rules a helicopter must be at least 500 feet above any person,vessel or structure unless landing or taking off, if you are in Coventry itself then that goes up to 1000 feet . As for the noise limits new helicopters are designed and tested to be as quiet as possible older ones are not but I'm afraid you don't own the air above you house so they have every right to be there , unless of course you are getting this problem between 2200-0800 in which case different noise rules apply .

if you want to know what type of helicopters are flying over you maybe give Coventry a call as they should be taking to them

Gordy

28th Apr 2015, 18:18

I was typing a response but CBS beat me to it...... I echo his comments.

From over this side of the pond, the advice I would give would be to call a local operator and just "ask" them. Certainly over here, we would welcome you to our office and be happy to show you routes, altitudes etc and try and do everything we could to avoid your home if possible.

We as pilots and operators need to be cognizant of the impact we have on our local communities, and try to educate rather than get into fights.

Bravo73

28th Apr 2015, 18:39

"Suffer"? Really?

:rolleyes:

Gemini Twin

28th Apr 2015, 19:38

SUFFER!! I live close to JBLM and we have many daily flights over our home. They are mostly Blackhawks, Apaches and Chinooks but also the local medical EC135 and the R22's and R44's from the local school.
Because I love helicopters and have worked in the industry since 1972 I don't "suffer" at all as the noise level is less than the construction trucks building new home in the area.
I think you only "suffer" if you don't like helicopters

CRAZYBROADSWORD

28th Apr 2015, 19:49

Easy guys some people suffer a very real issue with noise where others don't even notice it ! Having lived next to railway lines and motorways I can honestly say it only bothers you if you let it . That said said closing ranks and antagonising people does not help the industry one bit.

Gordy

28th Apr 2015, 19:51

I like helicopters, it is my living. However, I had bought a house close to the airport, knowing the regular traffic patterns and as such tried to avoid it. I would get annoyed when helicopters would constantly fly over my house on weekends because they "chose" to fly wide on downwind legs.

We have two ways to deal with the public who are becoming more aware of helicopter noise---we can try and educate them and fly neighborly or we can deal with the consequences when they gain political strength---just ask the New York and Los Angeles helicopter operators.

sherburn2LA

29th Apr 2015, 02:01

from my training days

"why do all the helicopter pilots on the field seem to get their license in less hours than the fixed wing" ?

"because they don't bother with the lessons that cover airmanship"

spencer17

29th Apr 2015, 06:23

"why do all the helicopter pilots on the field seem to get their license in less hours than the fixed wing" ?

"because they don't bother with the lessons that cover airmanship"

@sherburn2LA
That Statement is:
1. BS
2. False, and
3. Shows your attitude, so helicopter noise has to bother you.

CRAZYBROADSWORD

29th Apr 2015, 10:24

What spencer said but with bells on !!!

Where I fly from a busy month at the airfield is 4000 movements all GA with about 80 % being fixed wing and there standard of RT and general airmanship is shocking , constantly talking ver each other and arguing and only being dimly aware of other airspace users .

The latest one at the weekend was very funny a fixed wing instructor calling up and saying he had a medical emergency and had to return to the field and when ask if he needed an ambulance the reply came back " no just the toilet " lol

John Eacott

29th Apr 2015, 10:59

Could someone be so kind as to advise on the rules concerning the noise we suffer on the ground?

snip

an increasing number make their presence known by both noise and a physical sensation. It is sometimes necessary for conversation to stop for 30-60 seconds.

snip

Sorry, but I have difficulty accepting such an exaggerated OP. To infer 'suffering' from an overflying helicopter and 'conversation to stop for 30-60 seconds' gets my vote for bulltish, since most of us here would be hard pushed to cease conversation unless standing within 10 yards of an Agusta A109 at flight idle (the noisiest light twin I could think of!), without ear defenders :rolleyes:

Even on a still night an overflying Bell 412 air ambulance hardly imposes a noise footprint on my place for less than a minute, and certainly not with enough EPNdB to impact on the ambiance of a rural setting.

This, and sherburn2LA's useless post, come from a poster with a spotty history and a debatable knowledge of aviation.

cattletruck

29th Apr 2015, 11:25

What about those spy cameras, not to mention the chem-trails from them other flying dudes. :eek::eek::eek:

I love the deep reverberating sound of a Bell 412 air ambulance on a still night as it heads towards the nearby major hospital. Its sound is dutiful and purposeful as it executes its role of giving the guest in the back seat every possible chance of an extended life. Unfortunately head trauma victims require a style of flying that can upset the uninformed on the ground.

Thomas coupling

29th Apr 2015, 11:52

Tony,

If this is a major concern for you in this day and age - get a life - I would say.

Cars on busy roads, children crying in shopping malls, reversing lorries, TV ads, Birds, ALL make as much noise sometimes.

Please have a good look at yourself and ask the question - is this having a long term detrimental impact on my life If it is - MOVE! Simples.

PS: There are no rules governing general aviation from..............aviating :ugh:

Soave_Pilot

29th Apr 2015, 11:52

People just love to complain about the noise helicopters make. But they never remember what would be their life without them, those short memory folks should remember hurricane Katrina, the recent devastation in Nepal, and perhaps if one day they get into a car accident far away from a hospital, who would assist them? and the list is too far to type right now...

Stanwell

29th Apr 2015, 13:53

SUFFER ??
Ever thought of a job as a leader writer with the Daily Wail?
As has already been suggested - "Get a life", mate. :*

ELaw

29th Apr 2015, 14:12

Cars on busy roads, children crying in shopping malls, reversing lorries, TV ads, Birds, ALL make as much noise sometimes.At the first house I owned, a helicopter (a Jet Ranger I think) would fly over between 2:00 and 3:00 AM every few days making an incredible amount of noise. The house was not on a busy road, nor was it in a shopping mall or a trucking depot, and the TV is not turned on at two in the morning when I'm trying to sleep. Nor are there any birds making noise - they're trying to sleep too. The only noise loud enough to prevent sleeping was that effin' helicopter.

Please have a good look at yourself and ask the question - is this having a long term detrimental impact on my life If it is - MOVE! Simples.Which I eventually did... and is a viable option if you happen to have a few $100K in your pocket to fund same. Otherwise maybe not.

wokkaboy

29th Apr 2015, 17:11

Tony

It could be the air ambulance or Children's Air Ambulance assisting someone who is 'suffering' much more than you are.

Perhaps have a think before you move near an established airport and then start whinging eh?

:=

Hedge36

29th Apr 2015, 17:30

500guy

29th Apr 2015, 18:34

I live about 3 miles north Runway 35 of KUAO in Aurora, OR.
at least a few nights a week the local life flight A119 flies over in the middle of the night, I'm not sure how high he is but its low enough to wake me. Still, Its not different than the train whistle a mile away that sometimes wakes me up, certainly not worth complaining about. He is out saving lives, to ask him to redirect is path to limit noise (to me) and impose it it on someone else and delay patient care is crazy.

Last week a Chinook was orbiting over the river about 250' agl and about right over the edge of my neighborhood, It actually knocked my wife's scented oil diffuser off the window sill. Still not worth complaining about.

The Cranes do there water testing about a mile farther down, I often see them testing the dip tank when I am kayaking or my dog is swimming in the river fetching sticks. It actually happens quite frequently, I take notice almost weekly in the spring and early summer. Sure, it interrupts my serenity for a moment, but its not worth complaining about.

Grow up.

Unless someone is using a helicopter in a harassing fashion its just someone else doing their job and your pompous not in my backyard mentality that is the problem here.

Rigga

1st May 2015, 17:17

I agree about the OP's apparent exaggeration or over-emphasis on the levels or timespan of noise "pollution" in his area.
I do remember that, in the mid 80's, the inhabitants local to RAF Odiham once complained that the noise at weekends was intolerable - the Glider Club decided that request did not deserve an answer...
I live within the Circuit routes at Norwich and I admit that every time I hear or see an aeroplane or helicopter overhead I thank someone for giving work to someone else.
However, I do see and hear about half of Norwich Airport's daily traffic - but I worry more about road noise beside my house, which is neither a main road nor a busy road.

Tony_SLF

1st May 2015, 18:06

Thanks for the response and info Craybroadsword and others who replied politely. A pity that there are so few of you.

To the slobs and the bullies and the smug; Perhaps you might like to be more considerate towards the 99.9% of the population for whom helicopters are not an item of necessity or pleasure. Politeness costs little.

Stanwell

1st May 2015, 18:16

Well Tony,
Perhaps if your OP relied a little less on emotive terms and exaggeration,
you might have received more reasonable (and fewer snide) responses.

Think about it.

500guy

1st May 2015, 21:48

Not an item of Necessity?

Did you ever take a Helicopter ride or tour? It seemed justified then didn't it.
Know anyone who's been transported by a medical helicopter?
Rescued by helicopter?
Ever watch the news?
Got reliable electricity at your house?
Affordable fuel prices thanks to helicopter's vital role in north sea oil drilling?
Do they have police in the UK? I believe it is a necessity to their operations, which makes it an important contributor to your safety.
What about your national security?
Economy?

Just because you aren't an end used of helicopter services directly don't imagine they do contribute to your lifestyle.

spencer17

2nd May 2015, 05:46

@500guy there are more:

- Fire fighting
- Flood defence
- Pipeline patrol
- Rail Network safety
- Fertilizing forests
- etc. etc.

@Tony_SLF

Thank you for your "polite" answer.
Calling people, you don't even know, Slobs and smug must be the new kind of politeness I didn't know yet

Hughes500

2nd May 2015, 06:32

Tony SLF
Just reread your post, please state the facts. The definition of a noise nuisance is from when you can't hold a conversation to when you can. For a National Park planning permission case I had to land a Hughes 500 ( a very noisy helicopter )
The NP took its noise reading ( I was landing within 25 m of them ) The result was 12 seconds. So where does 30 to 60 seconds come from please ? Bear in mind the helicopters you are seeing / hearing will be 500 ft plus away from you not 25 m.
Most of us try very hard not to cause a nuisance however i understand you are upset but it does seem that you are perhaps exaggerating somewhat, hence some of the reply.

John Eacott

2nd May 2015, 06:41

snip

We live near the University of Warwick on what sometimes feels to be the main north/south route for private helicopters with a steady string on traffic.

snip

I, too, re-read Tony's OP and stand by my original reply.

Along with the observation that a further emotive (possible) exaggeration is the assertion that all his problems are created by private helicopters.

Really, Tony_SLF? You couldn't just be a teensy weensy bit inclined to over-egging the pudding here :=

misterbonkers

2nd May 2015, 07:07

I don't believe there are enough helicopters in the area for a steady string of traffic.

Tony - do you have a petrol lawnmower? Now they really get on my nerves - it can take hours for my neighbours to cut there lawns and its just relentless.

Perhaps your neighbours are the same?

Next time you see a helicopter try thinking positively about its purpose as listed above - day dream about where it may be going. And before you know it the thing will have gone and the noise no longer there.

helideck

2nd May 2015, 07:16

Living close to an airport I have many different types of helicopters (Mainly offshore) over my house every morning and through out the day from as early as 06:45. And it doesn't bother me. You get used to it!

SilsoeSid

2nd May 2015, 15:05

We live near the University of Warwick on what sometimes feels to be the main north/south route for private helicopters with a steady string on traffic. Whilst most helicopters are a minor annoyance, an increasing number make their presence known by both noise and a physical sensation. It is sometimes necessary for conversation to stop for 30-60 seconds. I have trouble believing this is deemed to be acceptable

I'm relieved that Tony only complains about the minor one minute long interruptions to conversations made by private helicopters ... I wouldn't like to hear his rant about us during this incident;

Warwick University responds to Tile Hill shooting - The Boar (http://theboar.org/2013/06/08/warwick-university-responds-to-tile-hill-shooting/#.VUTjIRikqK0)

Several Tile Hill residents complained on Twitter about the noise of a police helicopter flying overhead during the hunt for Mark Cullimore, 34, who was involved in an armed stand-off with police in a block of flats in the Tile Hill area at around 2pm.

Still, the voice of reason always wins through;

https://storify.com/devdan/tile-hill-shooting

I'd rather hear a police helicopter for 8 hours, than have others hurt/killed by gun crime on my doorstep

:ok:

ThreeThreeMike

2nd May 2015, 22:43

Here in north Dallas a Life Flight Agusta often flies directly over my house at + - 1,000', sometimes in the middle of the night. It's pretty loud.

I wake up, think about the dedication of the crew, and pray the person they are transporting is not seriously injured or ill.

TrakBall

2nd May 2015, 22:50

ThreeThreeMike -

"I wake up, think about the dedication of the crew, and pray the person they are transporting is not seriously injured or ill."

Exactly right!

TB

Left_Pedal

3rd May 2015, 00:00

Tony I'm going to try and be as polite as possible.

Generally a helicopter is flying overhead at or above 1000ft AGL unless directed by ATC. Many helicopters, private or commercial, travel at about 185kph (100kts) and are in the area for 12 to 15 seconds. At that height most helicopters are between 55dB and 65dB. No louder than the inside of an office of shopping centre.

It's not the actual volume of the noise that is making you "suffer" but the difference in noise. It's just like sitting at a cafe on a main street, you don't notice each and every car that drives past that cafe because you're used to it. Then a Harley motorbike goes past and you notice it. You notice it because it's vastly different to the cars that have been going past.

Take a minute to understand what the pilots are doing as well. Those small scenic tourism helicopters are generally being flown by people who want to further their career and fly EMS helicopter, Police operations, oil rig transfers, powerline inspections or fire fighting. They're guys and girls who have chosen a career in aviation and they've spent a lot of money trying to fulfil their dreams and will end up becoming pilots of aircraft that we all may require in a time of need.

You see, I've been on the receiving end of people who think helicopter noise is offensive. I ran a very successful tourism operation in the second most popular tourism region in Western Australia. I had 12 people out of a whole town complain, threaten, vandalise my helicopter and eventually run me out of town.

I was just doing my job in a region that relies on tourism, I was trying to build hours to doing something more later on in my flying career but now I've relocated back to a capital city and unemployed. There's no flying jobs where I am and I've lost over $75,000 after being run our of this town so I can't afford to just move somewhere else to try flying. No one will hire a 40 year old with no experience outside of aviation.

So just think about that snow ball effect if you continue to pursue that amount of suffering that you may be experiencing when a helicopter spends 12 seconds flying over your house. I can tell you what real suffering is like not being able to find work because someone like yourself decided to take some kind of action again a helicopter flying over your house.

Ascend Charlie

3rd May 2015, 01:49

It is a problem called "Perceived Noise".

The noise isn't really loud, but as has been said before, it is a DIFFERENT kind of noise.

When the garbage truck rumbles along the street at 5am and crashes the bins up and down, it wakes everybody up, but the folks know that this is an essential service, and complaining is just stupid.

When the local yobbo roars up the street with his hot exhaust, it wakes people up, but people are not game to complain as he is a member of the local yobbo gang that would set fire to your car.

But when a helicopter flies over, people perceive this as a rich boy's toy, a jetski of the sky, which must be eliminated. And because the FAA/CAA/CASA makes it so easy to complain, and even explains to people how to complain, and are obliged to respond to a complaint, these folks hop on the phone and have a moan. One person complaining 100 times (a d!ckhead making a fuss) is recorded as 100 noise complaints (ooh, lots of people are complaining - better kick these helicopters out.).

Even the sight of a helicopter is enough to make somebody think that the noise is excessive.

When we were jumping through the hoops to get our Parramatta heliport approved in the late 90s, the local Labor council thought that they would squash us by requiring noise tests with microphones at the nearest houses around the suburb which, they reckoned, would record horrible helicopter noises and stop the application.

The tests were a resounding success - for us. The sound recordings could not detect the helicopter noise from the sounds of the Western Freeway, James Ruse Drive, the gravel crusher, and the local speedway. So, the noise isn't a problem, it is just the people who don't like helicopters.

AtomKraft

3rd May 2015, 03:51

I think the replies that TonySLF got say more about helo pilots than they do about him.

There's plenty along the general lines of 'look, we are important, and we are doing important things. Kindly run along'.

The guy took the trouble to find this site and to post on the correct forum. Why not keep replies objective?

misterbonkers

3rd May 2015, 09:05

Atomcraft. If you can find PPRUNE you can find other appropriate websites that detail;

1) Aircraft noise is only legislated at airports
2) If a particular aircraft is causing noise nuisance but is not breaching the Rules of the Air the CAA don’t have legal power to restrict its activity. We advise that if possible you contact the operator of the aircraft.
3) Heights wise (trying to keep it simple) minimum 500ft from (not necessarily above) (non congested area) or 1000ft above highest fixed point within 600m (congested) else for helicopters; can fly closer than 500ft when taking off and landing. Of course some helicopter may even be operating legally lower than the above - utility/police/HEMS/SAR.

Luckily it's raining today eh? No lawnmowers cutting the grass. And something else to complain about! (damned weather).

SilsoeSid

3rd May 2015, 10:18

The guy took the trouble to find this site and to post on the correct forum. Why not keep replies objective?

Tony joined this site on 16 April 2008 :rolleyes:

Devil 49

3rd May 2015, 14:30

"The guy took the trouble to find this site and to post on the correct forum. Why not keep replies objective?"

Read the title of the thread- "Noise suffered by the people on the ground". Those interested in suffering, nothing will do but acknowledge victim-hood and eliminate it completely. It's not an objective question of quantity of the issue, the issue has to be eliminated or the 'suffering' continues. How much inconvenience constitutes "suffering"? I have been in the biz for decades and carried on normal conversations on busy heliports...

G-ARZG

3rd May 2015, 15:43

Wonder if the OP still makes 50 (air) roundtrips a year, as noted in his entry 8 Feb 2011 ?

No noise from those, I'm sure...

FSXPilot

4th May 2015, 18:40

I think we are being trolled by a moron.

rotorspeed

5th May 2015, 07:36

I'm afraid those being arrogantly dismissive of concerns on helicopter noise are not doing the industry any favours here. We ought to assume that Tony SLF has a ligitimate interest in the subject - his post was hardly a rant. And even if not there are plenty of others who are concerned - not surprisingly - with helicopter noise.

We should not only be couteously explaining the low flying rules, (as CBS did) and helicopter noise certification regulations, but also making it clear that as pilots we should be trying to minimise the noise impact of our activities - eg by flying as high as is sensible, making steep climbs and steep approaches etc etc.

We need to think long term - and even medium term. Whilst regulations may not change in the next 5-10 years, in time they surely will, and we are likely to enjoy less freedom in what, how and where we fly because of new regulations from public pressure to reduce the noise impact of helicopters.

I'm afraid too many posts here demonstrate a poor, inconsiderate attitude to what is a real issue. We all know these posts get trawled for info in the event of accidents. They could be equally used to demonstrate a couldn't care less attitude by the industry (which is untrue) which will be antagonising to those who lobby to constrain helicopter flying.

Of course by the worst offenders are the military and I do think serious questions should be asked about the need, for example, for Chinooks to fly over well populated areas at circa 250ft to the extent they do.

SilsoeSid

5th May 2015, 08:09

I thought Tony's rant was about private helicopters :confused:

Besides, I would have thought that rather than the slight occasional trickle of private helicopters passing by being an annoyance to her, the anti social motorbike riders prevelant in that area would have been more of a concern.

Thomas coupling

5th May 2015, 09:46

Rotorspeed you are naive to expect anything other than the response he justifiably deserved on this forum for the following reasons:
(a) This is a haven for all things - aviation. One would expect anyone complaining about aviation to be (thus) - flamed :ugh:
(b) Helicopters by their very design and nature are noisy things. Pilots fly by the rules (mostly) and an overflight anywhere is going to cause collateral noise - not because of the inconsiderate attitude of the driver but as mentioned - because they are loud machines :ugh:
Living next to the motorway, in a city, near the beach (seagulls) causes noise. It is a fact of life and NOT a fault of the inadequacies of the pilot.
So he got what he deserved. If he had done a little bit of research on the subject, he would have found that there was no cause for complaint. He has simply displayed his true colours - that of a NIMBY.
And with a handle like yours - you should show more solidarity to your industry :mad:

Hughes500

5th May 2015, 10:51

Both TC and Rotorspeed are right to a degree, however there is no argument until some actual facts are put down on the table. Perceived noise is what it is all about. Once your ears are tuned for the noise there is no hope for the pro heli lobby !!! Mrs 500 can here me coming home long before anyone else can even hear the machine ( probably to make sure her other man has got out the house ! ) My grandparents lived in London with their back garden edging on to the main SW rail line they could never hear the trains yet used to keep me awake as a kid on visits !
Perhaps Tony could be more specific with actual details

rotorspeed

5th May 2015, 17:46

Silsoe; how does anyone tell private helicopters from corporate? Clearly impossible, and even identfying what are public service helicopters is not easy. So reference to 'private' is probably fairly meaningless - apart from perhaps indicating a chip-on-shoulder mentality.

TC; you've got it wrong - I'm very much trying to support our industry. And that is not going to be achieved by us being blinkered to real issues. However I do concede I may have been naive - in expecting posters to be objective rather than being knee-jerk defensive to any criticism.

I stand by my comments, partly because even when one might think a point is being exaggerated (ie 60 seconds of conversation-killing overflight) being understanding rather than defensive tends to diffuse antagonism - that can easily escalate.

SilsoeSid

5th May 2015, 19:25

DBChopper

6th May 2015, 10:23

*logs into PPRuNe for the first time in years

*sees nothing has changed

*logs out again

rotorspeed

6th May 2015, 13:06

Silsoe; I rather think you're the one that's on your high horse. Please explain why you think I've shot myself in the foot. Frankly I have no idea what you're talking about.

Furthermore perhaps you thought I was referring to your possible chip-on-the-shoulder mentality. In fact I wasn't, I was just considering that perhaps the original poster stated private helicopters because he had such a mentality. I can see though my post wasn't clear, on a further read.

Stanwell

6th May 2015, 15:33

Well there we go, y'see.
Did it occur to you that the OP is either...

a) A troll (I don't think so, somehow).
b) Going through a difficult period of life.
c) One of those people to whom Darwin's law doesn't apply.

I'll be generous and go for b), myself.

p.s. Bloody BK117s! (HEMS to nearby major hospital)
They take the froth off my cappuccino. I suffer.

misterbonkers

6th May 2015, 19:37

rotorspeed - in all my years of aviation I have only ever seen chinooks at such a low height well away from congested areas. If they've been over towns then they have always been higher. AND we don't exactly have enough chinooks flying round the UK to be worried about noise either. Your comments are not helpful either!

rotorspeed

6th May 2015, 21:09

Misterbonkers; the problem with some low military flying such as with Chinooks is not that they fly over congested areas but over some reasonably densely populated rural areas, sometimes frightening horses etc. Now I love to see them at 250ft but many others don't!

Which of my comments are unhelpful, and to whom and why?

Ascend Charlie

7th May 2015, 04:48

A horse can be frightened by a piece of paper, a camera flash, a dog farting, and a passing helicopter. ONLY the helicopter will evoke a response from the horse's owner. Perceived noise nuisance.

I have spent thousands of hours at low level (level with the wire) on power line inspections, and have scared the snot out of lots of horses, because they were hiding behind a line of trees that I overflew. Whenever I saw horses ahead of me, I pulled away from the line, went around the nags at a suitable distance, and rejoined the line. But many times, a bunch of hoses would suddenly start running - straight at me. Horses is such stoopid people.

misterbonkers

7th May 2015, 12:38

Rotorspeed - not helpful because they suggest that low flying military helicopters are a big problem when they simply are not.

Ascend Charlie - you're bang right with your post. The worst situations with horse are when the owner is in the field with them - owner panics then horse panics! Its the same with riders.

Ascend Charlie

7th May 2015, 23:02

Here in Oz yesterday, Tracy Grimshaw, a TV personality, was tossed from her horse onto her head, was unconscious for 30 mins, taken to hospital (by a chopper).

The horse had been scared by a lawnmower.

There will probably be no action taken against the user of the mower, but imagine the fuss if it had been a helicopter that scared the neddy. No mention of whether the horse put in a noise complaint against the rescue helicopter when it arrive to cart Tracy away. The lawnmower was put down.

jimf671

8th May 2015, 00:17

Either your horse is ready for the 21st century ...

31-mvVZEeMk

NVubZ0Oegy4

.. or it's not even ready for the 19th ...

k6aX-Cm_420

John Eacott

8th May 2015, 00:34

It is noteworthy that the two dissenters in this thread (AtomKraft (http://www.pprune.org/members/400982-atomkraft) and Tony_SLF (http://www.pprune.org/members/238447-tony_slf)) are Jet Blast residents with little or no aviation experience. Having come here for an opinion they don't seem to like the answers since they don't conform to the expectations of today whereby anyone complaining must be deemed in the right and any dissenting opinions are automatically wrong :=