To EK pilots - Legality of EK 6221 to DFW on Apr.XX

[heartofspades]

Pilots!
Just trying to get a more clear picture of this whole flight time limitations bull****, I have a incident to present you:

On Apr XX, DXB-DFW EK 6221 took off with 1:15 minutes delay. After 5 hours, the flight was diverted to DME for medical emergency. Spent 3 hours on ground in DME before taking off to DFW. Still a 10:30 hrs flight ahead at this point and crew had been on duty for almost 9:30 by then. No breaks had been taken since there was little information on the diversion and wether the flight would go back to DXB or continue on or whatever...

The flight went on to DFW and crew ended up spending 23 hours inside the aircraft. Total flying time was around 19:30 hrs. After effort from amazing seniors and purser, cabin crew was given 3 hr breaks.

You will be able to check all this on icrew, of course. But, as you well know, just remember the times that appear there are take-off/landing hours, excluding duty reporting times or aircraft taxing times...

Opinions on this bull****? To me it doesn't matter what procedures or book you follow, this is not how staff should be treated... Crew were told by flight deck they were still legal for 45 minutes. Just too much crap to believe in.
No recognition or e-mails from management after this... of course.

Opinions\insights?

Thanks a lot and fly safe!

[fliion]

HOS,

What does the FTL say - or are you too lazy to look it up.

You know when you dutied in and when you dutied out... Quote the section and then come back and make your case FFS.

The Flight Crew told you that you were legal within 45 mins. They didnt make the rules nor did they like being on duty that long either ...BUT the skipper made the call based on his experience.

Get a life...

f.

[SubsonicMortal]

Fliion - Maybe you can tell us what the FLT rules say without the unnecessary condescending tone of your previous post. The question was valid since, the way I see it, their circumstances did not fit the ULR FTL rules anymore following the diversion, i.e 2 sectors. That's the central point about the question I think.

[heartofspades]

Filiion, if people would just grow some balls about whats right or wrong instead of playing superior to others or complying with shady stuff, i truly believe EK would be in much better shape, staff wise.
On this note, you know very well how gray the FTL rules are. Not black and white as it should. Not for EK. And that at the end of the day, the captain makes the call (always with a 'little insight' from EK on what the decision consequences will bring...).
Buuut, given your tone, maybe you do have those FTL a lot clearer than us. So please fill us in and answer the purpose of this thread.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

2 sectors is covered in the ULR regs under disruptions.

Additionally, ch 7 of the Ftls (under sub para f of the ULR continigencies), gives a get out of jail free card by saying that all the limitations in the aforementioned section may be waived.

[glofish]

I guess hos was asking about the "23 hours in the plane" stuff. A legitimate question, if the 22 hours were breached.

To me the 22 hours barrier is a 3 feet concrete wall.

If the skipper went beyond, i very much would question his "experience" (according fliion).
Such duty times are blatantly unsafe and in view of the continuous shafting by the company simply counterproductive regarding our plight for better working conditions.

My 2cts

[heartofspades]

Tks, CRH. Just looked it up (again). It's just not clear what the crew rest adjustment should be in scenarios like these which is also my doubt...
Tks!

[anson harris]

HOS,

What does the FTL say - or are you too lazy to look it up.

You know when you dutied in and when you dutied out... Quote the section and then come back and make your case FFS.

The Flight Crew told you that you were legal within 45 mins. They didnt make the rules nor did they like being on duty that long either ...BUT the skipper made the call based on his experience.

Get a life...

f.

One of the most obnoxious things I've ever read on here - and that really is going some. Is it any wonder everybody hates pilots?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Glowfish - that's the thing 22 hrs is not a concrete wall. Read sub para f it's very clear.

[BigGeordie]

HeartofSpades, if you or anybody else operates a flight that you think is unsafe, and I make no apology for shouting, FILE AN ASR. I had a similar but less extreme case a couple of months back when no fewer than 7 cabin crew came to the flight deck asking if what we were doing was still legal (it was) and complaining about how tired they were. I offered all of them an ASR form and help to fill it in. None of them would.

If you don't look after yourself don't expect anybody else to. Especially in the Middle East.

[Fellowship of the drink]

I rarely post in here but I am compelled to on this occasion.

Fillion, you wrote the most unprofessional post I have ever read in this forum.

There is no reason why a person has to respond in this way, ever. I hope you don't conduct yourself in such a poor way, in or out of the flight deck.

Enroll in an anger management class or refrain from posting such abrasive content. You are a disgrace!

[Longdukdong]

Hi HOS,

Ignore Fliion, it's just not worth it.

The answer to your question is in the OM-A. It's in Chapter 7 Annex C.7 paragraph f.

The short answer is, yes, it was legal. There are a couple of provisions that needed to be met, and I suspect they were. You can argue whether it was the correct decision but there's no doubt it was legal.

[glofish]

Glowfish - that's the thing 22 hrs is not a concrete wall. Read sub para f it's very clear.

Rex

That's why i wrote

To me the 22 hours barrier is a 3 feet concrete wall.

in para b you can read that the maximum permitted FDP is 22h. That's what i stick to.

It's true that in para f it says that in "extraordinary circumstances" the FCP can waive any imaginable limit for ULRs (we are in the law bending ME after all ...), but it is clearly stated that the final decision rest solely with the commander.
Late departures and medical diversions are no longer extraordinary circumstances, with DXB airport and the number of pax stacked into whales. So show some balls ffs.

[Ketools]

A quick check of the facts :
Sked Departure 22:45z
Off Blocks 23:31z
On Blocks DFW 19:36z


Total duty time 21:51 Hrs. Legal.


Seems heartofspades is not entirely truthful.


Do you really think the 4 pilots in the flight deck would risk their licences with something like this?

[kipper the dog]

Don't know why everyone gives fliion a hard time, he makes a fair point. Hos might not have access to om-a being cabin staff, but the ftl's are available in their manual. If he doesn't understand them then he should go to his manager for explanation - typical cabin crew, only time they speak to us is if they want something.
At least they got paid for the actual flight time, unlike the pilots who only got the scheduled block time flight pay.

[Trader]

Really!!!????
How many pilots have a difficult time interpreting the FTL's or misread them!

Cabin crew, in general, don't bother because, for them, they really do not matter. They follow whatever the company or captain tells them. Right or wrong. Even if they were right and hold to it they will be punished in one manner or another so they no longer bother.

As an aside, it astounds me how many captains simply go into discretion without discussing with the cabin crew.

[kipper the dog]

Why would you ever discuss going into discretion with the cabin crew??! It is captain's discretion, not anybody else's. Having said that I would always consult the f/o's but if u start involving cabin crew it's only going to end badly. Very badly.

[BigGeordie]

You should certainly consider the cabin crew. If they have been stuck on the aircraft with passengers they will be more tired than just hanging around the airport for example. However, on the 380 there are 26 of them and at best it is like herding cats. I can't see a discussion going well. There is a reason it is called "Captain's Discretion".

Maybe we should have a group hug and a vote?:E

[The Zohan]

Alone having to exceed 22 hours is an exceptional circumstance. If I had to exceed that limit it wouldn't be for the company.
I feel like I owe it to the passengers I'm carrying and am responsible for.
Without doing anything unsafe, if the other pilots and myself feel fit enough to go the extra mile, I wouldn't have a problem to accept the CP's waiver.
For some passengers it could be a matter of life or death, the last chance to see a dear one before he/she passes away, you name it.
On the same token, if I had the slightest doubt I was really pushing my or my crew's limits, and 22 hours is a really long time, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop where I am.

tz

[Trader]

You damn well better ENSURE the CC are fit to exceed their duty into discretion!! It is Captains discretion - the implication being YOU (the captain) are responsible to ensure that the CC are fit to continue.

I am not saying discussing it with individuals, one by one but, as a group they can be told that duty needs to be exceeded and if they are not fit then they should step forward. If they want to offload themselves then they can do so.

Should anything ever happen while in discretion, if you have NOT ensured they are fit YOU will be held legally liable and quite rightly so!!!!

You want to bandy around "I'm the Captain" then you had better be ready to act like one.

[BANANASBANANAS]

It is 'Captain's Discretion' as has been pointed out above but only after the Captain takes into account the fitness of his crew to extend into discretion.

To me, that means a subjective assessment of how fit the cabin crew would be to handle a pax evac if I stuff up the landing at the end of an extended duty ULR flight.

Can I respectfully suggest that you are putting a legal rod right up your own jacksy if you do not, at the very least, consult with the purser to get a feeling for the cabin crew's fitness to continue into discretion. If you force it on them, something goes wrong and, at the subsequent investigation it transpires that the cabin crew were not considered or consulted then you may well be digging yourself a very big legal hole.

In addition to the above, it is also good CRM and, imho, good command.

[heartofspades]

kipper, that's exactly because of selfish tiny mentalities like yours that EK cc are resigning in hundreds every week. God forbid, but for one second imagine that into DFW something happens and you'll have overworked crew having to operate a 380 evacuation... does it cross your mind? Or does it cross your mind that you have half of the crew of that flight on sick at this moment for ear infections, anxiety, sleep problems, etc?

DFW leaves at 2:45 a.m.. Chances are at that time, most of the crew will not be well rested.. so maybe, just maybe I would have taken that into consideration when deciding wether to go through DFW or not. And also the passengers input on that flight which was, for a change, supportive of crew. Not one single complain was heard and btw pax were taking crew names to give compliment reports about them to EK.

[lowstandard]

If you use commanders discretion on a ULR, you better have a very clear understanding of what an exceptional circumstance is. If you feel that it is safe to continue with such understanding, having taken into condsideration of ALL your crew, you can exercise discretion.

Get it through your head, you will be SOLELY responsible for any liability. You are responsible for every crew member. You are responsible for every crew members actions. Use the OM-A for your protection or Emirates will hang you with it if something happens. Understand the wording and your responsiblity because any proficient aviation lawyer that EK has the deepest pockets for will shred you, your family and your life.

If you continue, the crew does basic minimum service and spends as much time resting as possible.

EK gets a free walk on your licence and reaps the rewards as we hope for some crumbs, STAY SAFE! The only reason some are bullied is because we havent had an incident or accident YET that would set a precedent.

[break dancer]

The 22 hour ULR limit is just that - there is no discretion going to that limit. Also, the next rest period is only 12 hours and not the preceding duty period!! That was pointed out in an earlier post.....

[Ketools]

A quick check of the facts show that the total duty that day was 21:51 hrs. Long day but legal.

Seems the OP wasn't forthcoming with the truth.

[fliion]

Ok ok ok ....apologies for the tone (now that I've read it sober ; > )

It took me about three minutes to look it up which is my point:

OME Section 1, GENERAL pg 88 Rev 2
1.16.2.7 para 1&2

"Flights delayed ex-DXB will require a replacement Flight Crew if the projected FDP would exceed total of 22:00 hours. Departures after the specified time with a replacement Crew are subject to the provisions of the individual appendix.

The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis."

BUT

Para 12:
"In extraordinary circumstances, and with the agreement of the Fleet Chief Pilot, the limitations included in this section may be waived. The choice to waive these limitations, once approved by the Chief Pilot or his designee, rests solely with the Commander."

So now to your flight and I'm going off what's published in the FOIP for that particular flight - as I believe I'm familiar with the one you are discussing.

The Flight Crew and (by extension you) - dutied on at:

21:50Z (you pushed back 41mins late)
You dutied off at

19:36z in DFW

Your combined duty APPEARS to have been 21hrs 46mins

Before I go on ....is this correct or not?

If it is NOT can you provide the date of flight so that we can corroborate.

(I may be wrong as a bit hazy today after the margueritas :0 )

f.

[heartofspades]

That is correct, Fillion and thank you for providing up that info.
I do have doubts about the stated time on ground in DME which I believe was longer than what is stated (taxing in and out was absolutely long also given the situation...). But either way, the difference would be of about 30 minutes.

It is a dubious situation where many factors are at stake.
The whole point of this thread was to fuel true and interesting debate to demonstrate precisely how tricky of a situation it is. And you might think it's not important to discuss it, but I can assure it is because it might avoid people, especially cc, from making the same usual judgements right away and feeling (even more) devalued... It would have been an interesting discussion on the day and I believe it would have been useful. But I guess it's easier to ignore 26 tired, cranky and overworked cc and just tell them off with ''it's legal, ok?''

Anyways, guys, thanks a lot for the all the input and wish you the best flights!
Fly safe!

[BigGeordie]

Absolutely, but consulting with the purser is not the same as having a group discussion with all 26 of the Cabin Crew. Even without the group hug and the vote.

[TangoUniform]

Fliion has been nominated as EKs CRMI of the year.

[harry the cod]

break dancer

Please can you tell me where it says the next rest period is only 12 hours? I agree that the "rest provisions contained within the approved FTL scheme are not applicable to ULR operations" but I see nothing about actual minimum times. Not only logic, but common sense, safety and airmanship would dictate that you would require at least the same rest as the preceding duty. 22 hours duty, 22 hours rest. The reference to the normal FTL rest limitations is, in my interpretation, implying that if anything they should be greater. Remember, before EK bastardised the rules from the UK Cap371, a ULR required a minimum of 48 hrs rest. That is evidence that we should be applying a greater margin of safety rather than a lesser one when it comes to ULR rest.

No doubt the Company may try to persuade you otherwise, like any airline would, but it's not their career or licence that's on the line. Remember that.

As for the debate about minimum bunk rest for crew during ULR operations, I hate to tell you all but there isn't any. The Company applies to the regulator with each pairing a rest guide for cabin crew which will be applied for that particular pairing. It's not a mandated rest and is only 'recommended'. Whilst every effort should be made to follow it, it's not compulsory and in unforeseen circumstances, can be 'amended'.

Safe flying ladies and gents.....

Harry

[Long Dong Silver]

22:45 to 19:36 is actually 20:51 duty time...

[Emma Royds]

heartofspades

Regardless of what the limitations are, if you felt that tiredness was affecting you to the extent that it impaired your ability to perform your duties then report it.

On my last flight one of the GR1s came up to the flight deck with a Fatigue Report form as English is not her native language and she asked us to proof read it. I took the time to commend her on putting pen to paper because not enough cabin crew do.

Always remember that anyone can file an ASR too and it is not just a reporting system for flight crew only. ASR forms are carried on every aircraft so there are no excuses for not putting pen to paper. You just need to take a form and fill it in and then hand it to the F/O, who will ensure that it is submitted correctly back in DXB.

[fliion]

Long Dong - the FDP starts one hour before sked dep time 2150-2250z

f.

[fliion]

Settle down Capt Baptist,

I also served...though Im sure in nothing as 'comprehensive' a role as your vaunted career...and I don't believe in God....so you can take your Godspeed (3 times - seriously?)somewhere else.

The post thread heading regards LEGALITY not what we want or like.

Read the heading of the thread again "Legality of..."

So why don't you tell us whether it was LEGAL or not. I couldnt give a toss whether you agree with his decision or not. He was questioned on his LEGALITY.

f.

[heartofspades]

Thank you all for your contributions!
I just want to bring something up that might be considered fluffy but believe me, it is damn important and EK is so undermining this in their cc management... (previous consulting\psychology\HR management experience here...)

I agree that logistically, involving the purser is much simpler than the whole 380 crew. No arguing there, specially when u have to make decisions on the spot.

But I just wanted to bring something up related to this.
EK is hiring all these kids (average age 21-26 - it's rare to know any new joiners older than this, nowadays..) some straight of college. Most of them, westerners, are well educated, a whole different generation, smart, with access to information and most of them brought up, not with warnings and punishment, but more with negotiation skills by their parents... they do want to be involved, they feel entitled and want to be part of things. If you just shut them down with 'you're doing what I'm telling you and that's it', they will leave (like they have...)! The world is too small for them and it's easy to change nowadays and this kind of disposable policy from EK is totally messing up the company's goal of being the ''aviation gourmet\top of the top'' reference... just go into skytrax and check comments on cabin crew. ahaha...

Sorry for the long post... this stuff was mentioned on the EK forums and I was astonished when the guys listening there said they had never looked at things this way... (wtfff..... i seriously hoped they were joking or something...)

[Trader]

Modesh yes,CC sign on 1.5 hours prior in DXB compared to pilots 1hr!

Harry-- I agree the CC rest requirements are guidelines and the CAPTAIN can make them fit. Using discretion on the return to DXB I will always have the cc take the same amount of time as discretion for rest or increase their rest, should they have any, by the amount of discretion. This ensures they are fit throughout the flight and for the landing.

That is OUR choice as a captain! We all know the pilots will be using controlled rest so expecting cc to simply work through it, especially considering they are flying 120-130 hours a month, is shameful not to mention dangerous. So you mitigate that by adjusting their rest.

[glofish]

Not pretending to be absolutely right, but here's my interpretation of the book:

There is no discretion with ULRs. Discretions are described in another chapter and are also clearly limited. There is a only "maximum permitted limit" for ULRs and that in itself is self explanatory!

After that there is only a waiver of legal limits. Meaning just that: You are outside of any legality, solely and absolutely accountable for it.

The GCAA handed responsibility for that waiver down to the FCP and by that absolve themselves of any liability.
The FCP will hand down this sole waiving responsibility to you as skipper and absolves himself and the company of any liability or responsibility.
He will sweet talk you with 'think of the poor passengers, think of the cost for your company and think of blah, blah, blah', but will leave you alone in the rain in case of the slightest mishap.
As will the poor passengers. They will find a sleazy lawyer to sue the last drop out of you and the press will have a field day with your irresponsible disregard of maximum permissible limits .....

Think hard.

As for rest, i can only think of one minimum, that's 10 hours in a room with a bed. That's what you will get on a ORD, so think hard again: Do you want this after 23 hours or after 15, then continue to destination and have the same minimum rest again and all within clearly defined legal limits?

A no brainer, at least to me.

[Fear_of_heights]

And btw you are lucky it was IAH and not East Coast to be followed by reduced 12 hour Layover after 22 hours of duty per contingency provisions paragraph G :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[PositiveRate876]

Personally, I believe operating near the 22hr limit increases the risk factors to the point where a very careful assessment would have to be made.


Exceeding the 22hr limit is just plain negligence and recklessness.


Should some challenging technical malfunction and/or severe weather await at the end of that long duty, I doubt that the crew can perform up to the standards that are expected of pilots by the flying public.

[Long Dong Silver]

fliion,

My mistake. Thought that was the sign-on time

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Regardless of the legality question, rather you than me springs to mind.
It's beyond me how you cope :D:D

[pilotguy1222]

f.

What happened? You get drunk again in those 8hrs and 49min?

"godspeed" does not have anything to do with "God". Hope your knowledge of the OM-A is better that your pointless ranting in 2 outta 3 posts on this thread.


Nobody is writing reports about anything. I hear "fatigue" complaints ALL the time, but nobody ever seems to want to write about it. (cue lego pilot "work" youtube video)

[fliion]

Dictionary.com

"interjection, noun
1.
an expression of one's good wishes for a person's success and safety
Word Origin
C15: from God spede may God prosper (you)"

Sober today - thanks for asking.

Thread questioned legality....it was legal based on OMA and the timings on portal, which still have not been questioned by original poster.

That same day the IAH flight diverted to KEF, skipper made the same call albeit with different timings.

'taint a democracy

f.