Your leg or simply your take off?

[Judd]

Interesting discussion with a former ancient aviator who flew in the DC3 era in Australia. He joined with barely 250 hours, no instrument rating and went on to fly as a DC3 co-pilot directly from an aero club where he flew Tiger Moths and Wackett Trainers. Part of his flying training in the aero club was subsidized from a war service grant from the Australian Army where he fought in New Guinea.

He told me he could not understand the now well established principle of giving the co-pilot a "leg" which included the take off and the landing at the other end. In his era, the captain was in charge of the flight and depending on weather and other conditions he might offer the co-pilot a take off or a landing but a "leg" was unheard of. There was no such animal as a PF or PM. The crew consisted of the captain and his co-pilot.

The system worked well and there were no en-route arguments over decision making that often is a feature of my leg or your leg. CRM and TEM was yet to be invented in USA (and thence presented to the Western world as the ideal antidote to the occasional cowboy behaviour). Normal good manners and good airmanship were the accepted values of those immediate post war times. To be offered a take off and a landing by the captain was considered a privilege in those days - not a God given right...

My old friend wondered the reaction of the modern day co-pilot if told that he could do the take off or the landing but the captain ran the rest of the show?

[LeadSled]

Judd,
There is no lack of manners or good airmanship now, or then, and believe me, even the latter "DC-3" days (that's, almost, where I started) leg for leg was the norm. Flying leg for leg does not create "arguments", the Captain is the Captain, and every co-pilot knows it!
You have to go back to WW11 and immediately after to find examples of what you are describing, it didn't last long in Australia.
Some other countries, like the UK, it was a different matter.
Tootle pip!!

[Derfred]

The system worked well

No, it didn't.

And that's why it evolved into the system we have today.

[50 50]

Gee can't wait until this turns into another thread about the "youth of today" and their sense of entitlement. Seems a wonder that anyone that didnt have an overhead view of Dresden got anywhere near the controls for 45 years.

Should the rest of the world wait for people to die, before they are deemed worthy of the hallowed yoke? Or should people be content with looking after the Captains charts? What does FO stand for, folding only?

[Di_Vosh]

Gee can't wait until this turns into another thread about the "youth of today" and their sense of entitlement.

Well, it just may have with your post. Self fulfilling prophecy perhaps?

50 50 The grown-ups are talking here. Please be quiet.

Judd I spent this morning at a dawn service in Williamstown. I joined the Commandos in 1985. Our trainers were largely Vietnam veterans or people trained by them. I left the Commandos in 2010. During that 25 years the role, definition, training, qualifications etc. changed almost beyond recognition. And that was during my service. If I were to compare a 2015 Commando to a 1960 Commando they wouldn't recognise each other.

Similar for aviation. The old ways are the old ways. They belong (for better or worse) in the past.

IMHO.

DIVOSH!

[Pinky the pilot]

I have a position as it were in each camp, the first one from my late Father.

Dad finished WW2 as a WO1 with 461 Sqn RAAF. (Sunderland Flying Boats) He had done the required training and flown the required number of trips to qualify for the 'Skippers' position and command of his own aircraft. He actually was granted Command:ok: but never flew a single trip as VE day happened about two days after he was 'promoted.' :(

On the 27th of October 1945 he finally found his way home and flew from Melbourne to Adelaide (Parafield) in a Dakota. He told me the story thus;

'I was sitting down the back with a group of AIF and RAAF personnel and the Pilot appeared, glanced at us RAAF lot and asked "Any of you lot Multi Engine rated?" Dad put up his hand as was told 'Right, up the front; Second Pilot!"

Dad remarked that the PIC did the T/O, handed over to him at about 1,000' and upon arrival at Parafield, talked him through the landing.

Fast forward 49 years and I was second Pilot on an outback mail run using Chieftains. My official position, as chiselled in stone by Company Management was to sit there, look like I knew what was going on, and not touch anything, anytime, anyhow!!:rolleyes:

Not a single trip went by when the PIC did not hand over to me at some stage of the flight. There were occasions when I flew the entire leg(s) from T/O to landing. It was not required for the PIC to do so; indeed it was contrary to Management instructions!:eek:

The bottom line?
A Skipper who takes the attitude that the FO is there to keep the seat warm wouldn't be a skipper for much longer in many of today's Airlines

Quite possibly, and most likely so!

But at least in my case, and way back in late '45 for my late Father, the PICs concerned did not have that attitude.:ok:

The old ways are the old ways. They belong (for better or worse) in the past.


DiVosh; Thank you Sir. You said in one short phrase what I was trying to say in a rather long essay!:hmm:

[RHSandLovingIt]

I'm not sure I understand the difference?

The PIC is still the PIC regardless of who actually has their hands and feet on the controls.

We regularly have discussions enroute about the best course of action, sometimes the LHS points out something I don't know or haven't considered and sometimes I highlight something the LHS hasn't noticed or thought of.

At the end of the day, as PIC, they get "final say"... And as long as they can reasonably justify their decision, and it isn't going to kill me, I'm happy to go along...

As far as the "Captain and his co-pilot" method goes... I'm fairly sure there are a number of "Air Crash Investigation" episodes which highlight why things are different these days.

[sheppey]

"There is no lack of manners or good airmanship now"

Your leg, says the captain to his co-pilot during flight planning.

OK, says the co-pilot. Not a word of thanks of course, which seems par for the course in todays airline flight deck. Perhaps to actually say thanks, is seen as a sign of weakness. If so, more's the pity. Surely isn't it plain old fashioned good manners?

En route bad weather is looming and after studying the weather pattern on the radar, the captain decides to track well clear of a storm front. He asks the co-pilot to turn left to the required new heading in order to miss the storm by 20 miles.

Copilot replies that it is his leg - not the captain's - and he sees no reason to turn yet to avoid the storm. And yes, that is exactly what happened on one recent flight in Australia in a well known domestic airline flying between Brisbane and Sydney.

Isolated case you may say - but what's this about "there is no lack of manners or good airmanship, now" ?

[ACMS]

Well that F/O needs a little chat in the bar after work to remind him who really is in charge.

[ANCPER]

You seriously expect a thank you?

In general I've never thanked a captain for doing a sector, in fact every airline I've worked for it was expected to be leg for leg unless....... and that doesn't mean the capt being a dick.

I never expect an FO to thank me and I nearly always give them the extra sector.

Your other comment re the diversion....."My controls".

[Popgun]

The days of captain's "running the show" Captain Bligh style are thankfully long gone from Airline operations. Modern CRM demands it...and safety outcomes are the winner for it.

Both the Captain and the FO are integral pieces in the system that gets an aircraft safely from one place to another. Their parts are clearly and definitively scripted by the Company.

The Company explicitly tells them both what to do and how to do it.

This includes ensuring that both pilots remain current.

Unless there is a sound reason otherwise (such as inexperience, or pilot performance issues into a particularly challenging airport) , then the Company REQUIRES that captains share PF duties with First Officers.

Behaviour otherwise will quickly find that Captain having to explain themselves to the Company. For it is not the Captain's train set...it is the Company's.

While friendly respect for the Captain's position should be a given, grovelling FO thank you's for being 'allowed' a PF leg are not required.

The captain may be the PIC...but The Boss is ALWAYS the Company! :eek:

PG

[LeadSled]

ACMS,
Precisely.
Another opportunity for a learning experience for the F/O.
Always give your F/Os plenty of hands on, they might be the Captain, one day, when you are a passenger.
As one of the old and bold of WW11 said to me, many years ago, always be nice to your S/O, he might be your fleet manager some day.
Tootle pip!!

[atlas12]

Is this thread for real? I can't believe this is still a thing unless you're in Asia somewhere with a 200hr FO. Sure I have taken sectors sometimes in bad wx or a landing here and there depending on the FO's experience/skill level but I never EVER considered it being a privilege giving an FO a sector..... And i definitely never expected a thank you! Join the times it is 2015 cockpits are shallow gradients now with both crews involved in the decision making process and the skipper having the final say. Pretty simple. The only thing I don't appreciate is an FO who doesn't have any respect for the captains authority and boy do they exist but thankfully not in large numbers :)

[Old Fella]

It seems pretty simple to me. If any F/O can't accept that in all cases, unless the safety of the aircraft and occupants would be put at risk, what the Captain says is what goes. The comment that " it is not the PIC's train set but the Company's" is, in my view, utter crap. The Captain bears the ultimate responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight and it is his backside that will be kicked if he allows his F/O to get away with refusing a reasonable request, such as "come on to a heading of ..... to give us 20 miles from that buildup". It may be the F/O's leg, but it is the Captain's aircraft.

[Mach E Avelli]

Well said Old Fella.
I am all for giving the F/O "hands on" and often ensured that they got the more challenging leg if I thought that their handling skills were good for it, or would be improved by the experience without terrorising the pax.
If my name was on the flight plan, mine was the licence on the line, therefore it was always my ship; managed something like a ship with each crew member having specific responsibilities. It was not some hippy hugfest in the forest. Constructive suggestions were welcomed, as were tactful pointers to my errors (and there were a few). But any smart arse point scoring attempts were smacked down, usually by withdrawing 'leg for leg' privileges for a day or two, in order to better hone my skills to the level expected by the ace in the right seat.
Fortunately I only had to do that a few times over many years. Generally it was a case of sharing leg for leg with many a fine First Officer.

[Old Fella]

Pilat, no one is claiming all Captain's are infallible. What this thread is about is whom is in command. From some of the posts here it seems that some F/O's are of the opinion that when they are the handling pilot on a sector that they are in command. If they cannot accept that the Captain is in command and has the responsibility for what happens on the flight then maybe that F/O should try driving a taxi or some other craft. Nobody I know would ever be critical of another crew member speaking up if they were unhappy about an aspect of the flight. It all comes down to a matter of respecting authority of those with the ultimate responsibility.

[Maisk Rotum]

Twenty five years ago an old very gentlemanly ex BEA and BA Captain said to me;

"Oh dear, what's all this CRM bollocks about? Whatever happened to airmanship and being a good bloke"

Spot on then and spot on now.

[Centaurus]

Regardless of individual opinions about saying thanks for a take off, leg or landing, this flying story in Air Facts Journal furnishes readers with some corporate history on the subject. No doubt it may interest some and yet bore others to tears.
Read or delete as you wish.

Thanks for the landing - Air Facts Journal (http://airfactsjournal.com/2015/01/thanks-landing/)

[Checkboard]

there were no en-route arguments over decision making that often is a feature of my leg or your leg.
Say again all after? :confused:

I've never had an argument over decision making. Occasionally I have re-stated my position.

[gerry111]

Centaurus,

Wonderfully heartening stuff to read on PPRuNe, for a change.:)

[lexxie747]

POPGUN,

Just for your info, ; Captain Bligh was a hell of a captain, a great mariner and an accomplished navigator, just look him up......
Fletcher christian was nothing but a mutineer.

[megan]

From some of the posts here it seems that some F/O's are of the opinion that when they are the handling pilot on a sector that they are in command.Old Fella, have actually heard an FO say that to a captain, "when I'm flying, I'm in command".

[Tankengine]

Megan, the obvious response is :"OK then, I am flying!":E

[Mach E Avelli]

Bligh was indeed a great seaman. His biggest mistake was allowing Fletcher Christian aboard in the first place, knowing that he could navigate.
The tough old seadogs of the day often could only maintain control because their sailors knew that they would be lost without the Captain.
CRM was dispensed via the cat o' nine tails. Bloody pussy first mates these days expect equal standard of meals, hotels etc and to cap it all expect us to let them fiddle with the helm.

[Hempy]

I'd suggest that todays automated cockpit requires a little less decision making enroute than the OPs DC3 of yore. WX deviations aside, how much 'hands on' or 'decision making' is actually required, other than 'I wonder what the wind is like at 370?'. 'Your aeroplane' means what, exactly? Time in the logbook.

[john_tullamarine]

this flying story in Air Facts Journal

The story brings a tear to my eye each time I have read it. Well done, sir.

Time in the logbook.

My DC3 time was limited to a not-quite-completed endorsement during parachute ops with a well-known (now) very senior greybeard so I can really only comment on the "easier" airline stuff.

Admittedly, most of the time the routine was just that.

On the odd occasion, though, either two (or three, as the crew complement dictated) of us were on the edge of our seats. Probably not all that much different to the two in the three ?

Could it be that the olden times were not all that much different, in principle, albeit at lower heights ?

I consider myself fortunate that the first operator for which I flew had captains (in the very great majority) who quasi-delegated the show with the leg (with one eye kept very much awake to make sure I didn't screw up too much .. in which case I would be corrected and put back onto the straight and narrow quite politely).

Great for a young chap's training development and all round good fun .. barring the aforementioned seat edge sitting episodes ..

There was never any question or confusion as to who was in charge, though ..

Bloody pussy first mates these days expect equal standard of meals, hotels etc and to cap it all expect us to let them fiddle with the helm

... love it. You've been spending too much time on the boat, good sir ..

[Hempy]

As far as I'm aware, the CAR 224 still requires ONE person to be designated as "Pilot In Command", and said PIC shall be responsible for;

(a) the start, continuation, diversion and end of a flight by the aircraft; and
(b) the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time; and
(c) the safety of persons and cargo carried on the aircraft; and
(d) the conduct and safety of members of the crew on the aircraft.

also;

(3) The pilot in command shall have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft while he or she is in command and for the maintenance of discipline by all persons on board.

That's why the Captain is the Captain, and why the F/O can take it or leave it..

[john_tullamarine]

.. and I don't recall that anyone has suggested anything different ?

[Hempy]

It wasn't aimed at you mate, or the majority

[Centaurus]

In general I've never thanked a captain for doing a sector

Yet I am sure you would thank the FA for bringing you a cup of coffee on the flight deck. What's the difference in principle?

[Hempy]

Only if she was good looking I'd imagine, by the tone of things..

[Oktas8]

Yet I am sure you would thank the FA for bringing you a cup of coffee on the flight deck. What's the difference in principle?

If the FA brings me a coffee, he or she is doing extra work for my comfort. I am grateful.

If the Captain shares leg-for-leg with me, we are exchanging PM & PF roles at the stated expectation of the company. Whichever role is undertaken, no extra work is involved for the Captain (although it might be a different kind of work), and no less work is involved for me. I am neither grateful nor ungrateful; it's just another part of the job.

Of course, if the Captain sees fit to offer >50% of the flying, or perhaps a more challenging & interesting leg, I thank him for his kindness. Just like the coffee thing.



Thanks for posting the link - it's a great story. I particularly liked the students standing up in class for the instructor; there were one or two older instructors who I thought deserved this gesture at my flying school, but of course they did not get it from the classes!

[outnabout]

A very experienced Captn once told me - a cockpit is not a committee room. There is one, and one only, PIC. He / she may use whatever resources are available to them but at the end of the day, there is only one name on the paperwork, and only one person on the stand in the coroner's court if it all turns to ****.

A prime example - we all know who the Captn was but how many of us know the name of the first officer of the pelair flight at Norfolk Island and who apparently flew the first approach before the Captn took over? I certainly don't (and please don't name & shame - this example is to support my point of view).

It seems to me if the Captn assists in improving yr skills by encouraging you to fly a leg with the benefit of his / her experience in the left hand seat, (and him / her to carry the can if it all goes wrong) it seems to me that saying thank you is a very small thing to do.

Octas8 - if you believed the instructor to be worthy of the small sign of respect of standing when he/she entered the room, then why didn't you?

[The name is Porter]

A prime example - we all know who the Captn was but how many of us know the name of the first officer of the pelair flight at Norfolk Island and who apparently flew the first approach before the Captn took over? I certainly don't (and please don't name & shame - this example is to support my point of view).

And to further re-inforce your point, has the other pilots career been damaged to the point Dom's has?

[Creampuff]

There is no “Leg” or “Take Off” or “Landing” time or number Column or Sub-Column in the prescribed form of log book. Therefore, if you were to make your own Column or Sub-Column and record the time flying a ‘leg’ or the number of ‘takes offs’ or ‘landings’ you were ‘given’, you would break the law.

It necessarily follows that being ‘given’ a ‘leg’ or a ‘take-off’ or a ‘landing’ would be a risk to the safety of air navigation.

Shame on you people. Do you have CVD?

[Pontius]

There is no “Leg” or “Take Off” or “Landing” time or number Column or Sub-Column in the prescribed form of log book. Therefore, if you were to make your own Column or Sub-Column and record the time flying a ‘leg’ or the number of ‘takes offs’ or ‘landings’ you were ‘given’, you would break the law.

A fair bit of nonsense there, Creampuff. There is no 'prescribed form of logbook', just a requirement for us to "keep a personal log book". You can make up any sort of logbook that you want, so long as it "consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed". There are, of course, various flight times that need to be recorded but there is no law that says you can't record other information and so you cannot be breaking a non-existent law in doing so. I would actually go a bit further if we're talking about airline operations. In my experience most airlines have a recency requirement of XX take-off/landings in a particular period and these, from the words of CASA should be recorded in the Remarks column of a logbook. So, far from breaking the law, you are actually obeying it if you were to "make your own column or sub-column" and record "the numbers of 'takes offs' or 'landings' you were 'given' "


Route/Remarks/Details Record all points of take-off and landing, nature of the flight (eg, mustering, aerobatics, scenic, etc) and, if required for recency, the number of landings.

[Creampuff]

That shows an unhealthy level of independent thinking and initiative, pontius. :ooh:

I suspect CVD.

[Pontius]

Cardiovascular disease, compact video disk, chemical vapour deposition, clinical valve disfunction?

You might be right :confused:

[Hempy]

Chronic Vaginal Dehydration?

[Meikleour]

Ocktas8: I am guessing here but I suspect you may be the "better" side of 45 - if not then I apologise.

CRM has many uses but it can also stand for Courtesy,Respect and Manners!

Perhaps this is just a generational thing but the above seems to be increasingly absent.

[Oktas8]

I dont know which side of 45 is better, but I'm about on the dividing line anyhow.

I thank captains - and others - for many things, including offering me the benefit of their experience. Courtesy, respect & manners as you say. But the days when copilots were gifted legs at the goodwill of the captain are long gone. These days, we might be gifted a special leg, or an extra leg, or offered tips on being better pilots. In those cases, thanks boss!

Not qualified to comment on whether the change is a good thing or not.

I know a captain who thanks his FOs for their help after each duty. Nice guy, friendly to all. It puzzles me though why I should be thanked for doing my job. I don't quite know how to respond! Perhaps I've seen a few too many pilots who think they deserve to be thanked just for doing their jobs.

This thread reminds me of the long-term FO who retired without ever gaining command. His words at the farewell do:
"To all the captains who taught me what to do, to be a better pilot - thank you.
To all the captains who taught me what not to do, to be a better pilot - thank you.
To the captains who taught me nothing at all - thanks for nothing."

[Global Aviator]

Page 2 discussed, I'll add.

Who remembers Sully's FO?
Who was DeCrispy (QF380) FO,SFO, Check Captain?
and on it goes.....

All I'm saying is it's the Captain in command. There is PF, PNF but even when PNF the Capt is still in command.

Problem now is the new generation pilot thinks they deserve a command when they hit minimum hours. LCC has bred this and yes it still happens, not as bad as a few years ago.

What I've got 3000 hours so where's my command? The sense of entitlement???

Anyway leg for leg I see no problem, when the wx turns below FO mins there is no choice who takes off or lands.

I personally like to give FOs more challenging approaches within legal limits, how else does the new breed learn? Certainly not flogging around our back and beyond, on Candain waterways or Midwest USA...

Hnmm that sounded rantish, time for another red!

[Hempy]

Reminds me of a 'story' of a max weight VH registered B737-200

"ATC: can you accept FL370?"
"Capt: Affirm"
"ATC: Roger, climb to FL370, report maintaining"

Capt dials back ZFW in the box, a/c wobbles to FL368

"F/O: Tell him we can't make FL370 and get us back
down to 35 or I'll punch your lights out"

"Capt: I'll have your bars for this, this is a mutiny"....

edit: apparently the aerobridge scene was something to behold..

[LeadSled]

Folks,
CRM also means: Captain Remains Master.
CVD --- Continuous Vertical Descent, a description of where Australian GA is headed.

[Pinky the pilot]

CVD --- Continuous Vertical Descent, a description of where Australian GA is headed.

Sadly, quite so.:sad: And at an increasing rate of descent as well!:(