Loss of Control Training

[AmberNectar]

Could anyone briefly explain what training pilots receive for loss of control scenarios such as rudder hardover when completing their PPL, CPL and ATP licences and during training with airlines?

[Tarq57]

I can only talk from first hand experience regarding the PPL. The detailed training I received regarding such things as a control failure, involved checking the little nut that held the anti-servo tab mechanism in place was properly fastened (as part of the pre-flight inspection), because if it came off you'd get a severe control flutter and the aeroplane would probably break up. I was also cautioned regarding loose items in the cabin (coins, tools, pens etc) that, if left behind, could possibly find their way into a control run and jam something.

I was also told that if I froze on the controls, locking them in place at a critical juncture of flight, that I would find out (briefly) the secondary function of the crash axe.

A friend who went through rudder hardover training once the issue was discovered - it was type/actuator specific - told me that following this training that if a rudder hardover occured on his flight below about 10,000 feet, he was extremely confident that he would die.

Hope that helps.

[skyhighfallguy]

Dear Amber Nectar
the B737 had rudder hardover concerns stemming from a fatal crash or two or three depending on your views .

I was flying the 737 as captain at that time and we received training on rudder hardovers in the simulator.

Selection of certain "crossover" airspeeds in which the ailerons/spoilers had more authority than a rudder hardover allowed for some control, followed by turning off the rudder.

IN addition to this, differential thrust on the engines could also be used, but was not the first course of action.

Rudder hardover in light planes would be inconceivable as the controls are not hydraulic boosted. The condition would be impossible to happen

There are many things we train for. On one type we trained for deployment of thrust reverser in flight. The plane (DC9) was well controllable with the thrust reverser deployed in flight, by following the procedures. You can even view this on youtube, look up the MD80 promo film, near the end they show it happily flying with one reverser deployed.

I do not echo the idea that you would die below 10,000'.

Good luck and WHY do you want to know?

[AmberNectar]

Excellent, thank you so much for your help!

I'm completing a research project for a module at university, I am aware of the incidents involving flights 585 and 427 and of course since those, aircraft have landed with rudder hard over. But information on training given to pilots by airlines involving these scenarios seems to be hard to come by.

[AmberNectar]

Thanks for your reply!

Interesting you mention severe control flutter, this isn't something I have come across before. I will certainly dig deeper into that!

The 10,000ft statement does seem to bound around a lot on these forums and judging from some testing I've done I can see why. The loss of control is ridiculous to the point of being capable of maintaining a constant heading is a luxury, let alone altitude.

[Whopity]

You could say that PPL training is all about loss of control training, without it most people would loose control quite quickly. By training a pilot to control an aircraft throughout its normal operating range, they demonstrate their ability and obtain a licence. Aerobatic training will stretch the envelope further and is about controlling an aircraft at the edge of the aircraft's envelope.

More complex aircraft require "Type Rating" training which will address the relevant issues associated with that type of aircraft, its systems and the effect of system malfunctions.

[FlyingStone]

We sometimes practice the rudder hardover scenario (737) even though all aicraft in service have been modified to prevent this.

I would say that an average pilot should be able to fly the aircraft to the runway - as long as you keep high speed, with differential thrust, the aircraft is still somewhat controllable. The most difficult part of this exercise is to keep the aircraft on the runway during the rollout - I've seen it done using more-than-idle forward thrust on one engine and full reverse on the other and then slowly reducing both. Nevertheless, as said, this is not applicable to light aircraft with mechanical (cable/pushrods) flight controls.

What I would suggest however for advanced training is to show people how to make a traffic pattern (from beginning of takeoff roll to stop after landing) in a C172 with only rudder, throttle and elevator trim. It's really an eye opener and makes you more prepared in the event of control surface problems...

[ifitaintboeing]

FCL.315.A CPL — Training Course
Theoretical knowledge and flight instruction for the issue of a CPL(A) shall include upset prevention and recovery training.*

* The UK is applying the derogation permitted by the Regulation such that the upset prevention and recovery training is not compulsory until 8 April 2018. ATOs providing training for students from other EU Member States are advised to check the Status of the derogation in that State.

Reference: CAP 804, Version 2015/01, Section 4, Part D, Subpart 1, page 2.

It's also in the MPL [FCL.410.A] and Multi-Pilot Type Rating [FCL.725.A] course.

Not sure about rudder-hard-over, but airlines will look at common causes for accidents and incidents for that aircraft type, and integrate relevant training into recurrent simulator training.

Loss of control in the GA environment is addressed at the appropriate points during ab-initio training including specific exercises to address common causes.

Some UK airlines also mandate UPRT training as part of the integrated zero-to-hero course, and it's included in any case as part of type rating training and refresher training.

ifitaint...

[BEagle]

There's supposed to be an EASA rulemaking task force RMT.0581 looking into all this - not just the training for professional pilot training, but also for UPRT instructors.

What is not needed is someone showing off in an Extra 300 or similar! Instead, it is preferable that extremes of attitude and maximum 'airliner' g-forces are experienced in a suitable training aeroplane - and the importance of AoA and positive flight deck monitoring. This namby pamby "Err, O Captain-my-captain, err I'm not really very comfortable with this" needs to be rather more positive, in my opinion!

[old,not bold]

Loss of Control by demo crew...In the 70's it was decided that Sh Zaid, then Ruler of Abu Dhabi, ought to have a private jet.

The favourite was the new 3-engine Falcon, and one turned up one day for a demo ride. That went very well, and the Ruler was duly impressed. The deal was in the bag, bar the paperwork.

After landing, the head of the sales team said to HH that they would now demonstrate the agility and performance. "OK", says HH (I'm paraphrasing), "Let's see it, then".

So the crew got back in, started up, taxied out. "Watch this" says the salesman, and HH gave it all his attention.

They set max power, released the brakes, accelerated like a fighter, rotated and started what looked like a 40 degree climb. Then, at about 100 ft, they did a 360 degree climbing hesitation roll.

"حفظه الله لي من الشيطان" said HH, "أنا لا شراء طائرة أن يفعل أشياء من هذا القبيل" And he swept off, followed by the entourage. (Translation: God protect me from the devil, I'm not buying an aeroplane that does that.)

"Merde, ces cons de pilotes;" I think the salesman said to me, but I was laughing too hard to hear it properly. (Translation: expletive deleted.)

Not really relevant, but the thread reminded me of this apparent loss of control!

[old,not bold]

Loss of Control by demo crew...In the very early 70's it was decided that Sh Zaid, then Ruler of Abu Dhabi, ought to have a private jet.

The favourite was the Dassaut Falcon, and one turned up one day for a demo ride. That went very well, and the Ruler was duly impressed. The deal was in the bag, bar the paperwork.

After landing, the head of the sales team said to HH that they would now demonstrate the agility and performance. "OK", says HH (I'm paraphrasing), "Let's see it, then".

So the crew got back in, started up, taxied out. "Watch this" says the salesman, and HH gave it all his attention.

They set max power, released the brakes, accelerated like a fighter, rotated and started what looked like a 40 degree climb. Then, at about 100 ft, they did a 360 degree roll.

"حفظه الله لي من الشيطان" said HH, "أنا لا شراء طائرة أن يفعل أشياء من هذا القبيل" And he swept off, followed by the entourage.

"Merde, ces cons de pilotes;" I think the salesman said to me, but I was laughing too hard to hear it properly.

Not really relevant, but the thread reminded me of this apparent loss of control!

[max_drift]

Interesting thread.

As a part-time FI, one of the more common types of flights I do these days on SEPs tends to be the hour with an instructor for revalidation of the SEP rating. As part of these flights I will always tend to include some element of recovery from unusual attitudes/loss of control scenarios, typically spiral dive, high-nose incipient stall and some incipient spins. I have to say I won't normally go much beyond what PPLs will have come across as part of their training as I don't believe they are likely to encounter that in reality (as I tend only to fly with VFR, fair-weather fliers).

Personally, I like to try to fly my own revalidation flights with people who will push me beyond my own normal operating conditions in order to develop my own handling and confidence ie. semi-aerobatic stuff and fully developed spins. I think as a part-timer this is important and is the safest course of action as it takes me beyond what I would normally see as an FI.

Away from FI flying my airline includes regular recovery training in our recurrent sim training. In our case this is tailored towards recovery from icing-induced stalls and unusual attitudes. Despite being a Swedish design, the aircraft we fly have demonstrated some unusual and unfortunately fatal characteristics when covered in ice and allowed to stall. As you can imagine we focus a lot of training on not stalling the aeroplane, but equally we do spend a fair bit of time practising getting it back out again. I think the most extreme attitude our sim can produce is 110 degrees of roll and 40 degrees pitch down...that's interesting, but it is just a sim.

[Pull what]

PPL Loss of Control Training. I assume you mean the aircraft, some pilots Ive flown with seem to have loss of control as soon as they leave the crew room!

We do, apart from the obvious loss of control/stall avoidance and recovery:

Flaps full circuit and landing
Elevator jammed circuit
Wake turbulence recovery
Throttle jammed open circuit and landing
Windshear recovery
Door opening on lift off (only results in loss of control when the pilot trys to close it usually)

In the airlines apart from stall recovery training I remember doing Dutch Roll recovery and Windshear recovery with windshear being the most useful

[greeners]

EASA Decision 2015/012/R on Upset Prevention and Recovery Training (UPRT) was issued last week and shows what the regulators are mandating going forward.