Shackleton crash in Harris 1990 [Archive]

BEagle

24th Apr 2015, 19:21

Fox3WheresMyBanana

24th Apr 2015, 19:34

When I did the SFSO course in 1992, the opening speaker made a point of not mentioning current accident rates. Enough Gods-tempting for one decade!Indeed, the course had a lot of emphasis on how you could do a perfect job as SFSO and still get screwed by the Norns.

scotbill

24th Apr 2015, 22:43

According to Google, they flew into a hill in Harris while reporting a position further south trying to get into Benny. Would have thought the Shackleton would have had the sort of nav equipment to make that kind of error unlikely?

Fox3WheresMyBanana

24th Apr 2015, 22:58

Well, I've certainly told a Shack where they were on several occasions (including in 1990), so they could tell me where I was!

alwayslookingup

25th Apr 2015, 12:03

I once visited the GP surgery in Leverburgh, South Harris. He proudly displays an 8 Squadron Crest on the wall, presented to him in gratitude for help rendered at the time of the crash.

Dougie M

25th Apr 2015, 12:26

I was part of a 3 ship Hercules flight which was detached to Lossie for a tactical low level course on the 30th April 1990. We arrived in the afternoon after hearing of the SAROPS in the Hebrides.
We made our detached aircraft available to the Station on arrival and with the other staff crew members we flew the site guards and the BOI team into Stornoway. Each morning before carrying out the training sorties we would fly missions into Stornoway with equipment, supplies and personnel for the next 3 days. We had ex - kipper fleet crew members on the Hercs so it was harrowing for them too.
R.I.P.

Pontius Navigator

25th Apr 2015, 12:37

Scotbill, sadly not. It was a 1950s aircraft updated with a 1940s radar and long range over ocean navigation equipment. It would have had the radar off and possibly out of Tacan range.

The only safe procedure was to remain clear of cloud or under radar control.

Fg Off Bloggs

25th Apr 2015, 12:58

This might shed some (sad) light:

ASN Aircraft accident Avro Shackleton AEW.2 WR965 Tarbert (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19900430-2)

Narrative:
On the morning of 30 April 1990, the crew of Shackleton AEW2 WR965 took off from RAF Lossiemouth to participate in a maritime exercise in the Benbecula area to the west of mainland Scotland. The exercise was to be in two parts with a time interval between.

To make most economical use of the Shackleton's flying time it was intended to utilise the time interval to undertake some continuation training for which the crew had appropriate authorisation. Although the weather was forecast to be generally clear in the aircraft's operating area there were areas of low cloud and poor visibility over Scottish coastal areas.

The first part of the sortie was completed without incident and at 09:45 UTC the crew took the opportunity to participate with a Tornado F3 in mutual training which required the Shackleton's radar to be set to standby/off. After completing this training, the crew commenced their own continuation training which was to include a visual approach to Benbecula airfield.

The crew contacted Benbecula Air Traffic Control (ATC) at 10:25 UTC requesting permission for an approach, stating that they were about 20 miles west of the airfield; permission was given and Benbecula ATC passed their actual weather to the crew. Subsequent investigation determined, however, that the aircraft was actually 15 miles north of the position which it had reported at this time. At 10:30 two RAF personnel saw the Shackleton orbiting an island some 12 miles to the north of Benbecula airfield, and at 10:34 the Shackleton crew called Benbecula ATC stating that the weather was not sufficiently good for an approach and that they were turning right and climbing. At around 10:37 it struck the ground about 30 ft below the summit of an 823 ft hill on the Isle of Harris.

Reliable evidence indicates that at that time and in that vicinity the cloudbase was 200 ft above mean sea level, with cloud tops at 3000 ft. At impact, the aircraft was in controlled flight with all four engines developing cruise power.

CONCLUSION: "The Board of Inquiry concluded that the accident was caused because the aircraft was flown below a safe altitude in unsuitable weather conditions; the Board were unable to determine the reason for this."

The navigator was an ex-F4 man then OC Ops Wg at Lossie - nice chap, I knew him from Nav School.

RIP Chas and the rest of the crew.

Bloggs

Cows getting bigger

25th Apr 2015, 14:12

Colin Burns (co-pilot) and I were on the same flight on 90 IOT.

Wrong aircraft, wrong job, wrong place, wrong weather. Typical 'can do' RAF before integrated safety management.

Max Reheat

25th Apr 2015, 15:01

The Shack was supporting a joint maritime/air defence exercise involving Buccaneers from 12 Sqn firing TV Martel missiles at smoke floats which had been dropped by the unfortunate Shack. Once the smoke floats were in the water a Nimrod VASTAC'd the Buccs onto the target for the live firing.
All at the same time the F3's were tracking the martels to see if was possible or even likely that a cruise missle target could be engaged by the F3 system.

It's not a coincidence that the Martels were being replaced by Sea Eagles at the same time as the exercise. It had been deemed that it was cheaper to fire them off into the Atlantic than to have them broken up and the nasty bits disposed of in an environmentally friendly way.

I was on 12 at the time waiting for my QWI course to start, a very sad end to a jolly good jape! We lost some good lads on that one.

PPRuNeUser0139

25th Apr 2015, 15:56

There was a NE-3A supporting the exercise as well.

Brian W May

25th Apr 2015, 16:03

However well we knew them, the aircraft was in IMC below Safety Altitude.

I was also a Flight Safety Officer in the RAF and there was much discussion around this time regarding Squadron and Station Execs flying as they were assessed as being more at risk due to being 'distracted' by their 'day' job and their flying skills being eroded by lack of practice.

Safety altitudes were published in order that we didn't fly into cumulo granite in the Queen's or someone else's aluminium.

RIP guys, still a sad day, whatever the cause - human or otherwise.

Pontius Navigator

25th Apr 2015, 16:34

OC Ops, while a qualified navigator was not qualified on the Shackleton. The 1st NAv was not navigating at the time.

The Old Fat One

25th Apr 2015, 17:12

My old lead dry was on it...RIP. As I recall there was a lot of fall out regarding the way the outfit was run and the lack of oversight.

Cows getting bigger

25th Apr 2015, 17:55

Indeed, my vague recollection is that a few stones were turned over and the way 8 Sqn had evolved as a standalone entity was subject to criticism. Certainly key members of the normal operating crew were not at their usual stations.

Looking back, the crash reminds me of the JATE C130 low flying incident at South Cerney where there was also a view cast as to how supervision of a unique unit had diverged from the norm; excellent flight safety and flying supervision lessons that should still be taught.

I've been to too many funerals brought about by pilots ramming the ground.

The memorial is one of the most beautiful and fitting I know.

http://www.aircrashsites-scotland.co.uk/Site/page_images/shackleton_maodal/shackleton-moadal-40.jpg

Pontius Navigator

25th Apr 2015, 20:16

TOFO, was that Roger Scutt? Top bloke and I can tell you from first hand experience.

The Old Fat One

26th Apr 2015, 08:44

Yep,

In the early eighties he was my lead when we went through MR2 conversion. I was second dry and third was a very good mate who went on to become a fairly controversial fast jet pilot (won't be giving any names) long since departed for the airlines.

The two of us ran old Roger, and everybody else, ragged and he put up with it with immense good grace. Top bloke, sadly missed.

The memorial is one of the most beautiful and fitting I know.

I agree...as a munroist, I pass by many a sad site, quite often with accompanying large chunks of wreckage. Like the Canberra that hit the summit of one of the Lochnagar Munros. It was flying from Kinloss to Wyton when I was 26 days old...the emotional context is quite heavy when you pass by somewhere like that.

Old-Duffer

26th Apr 2015, 14:22

The sadness of this aircraft's loss continued long afterwards.

The widow of a crew member married another RAF officer the following year. Unfortunately, he died in 1998 and so the lady's 'new life' was short.

O-D

Pontius Navigator

26th Apr 2015, 14:54

TOFO, thank you see PM

OD, can you tell me who in PM please?

Maxibon

26th Apr 2015, 18:13

It was terribly sad: OF Ops was a family friend and my mother taught one of OC8's children at that time. A huge loss for a squadron that despite its machines seemed invulnerable. I walked passed a few of their graves t'other week when up in Lossie.

Pontius Navigator

26th Apr 2015, 19:21

..the emotional context is quite heavy when you pass by somewhere like that.

I know what you mean. I was driving back from the Lincolnshire coast when across a cross roads in the corner of a field by the field gate I saw a memorial and instantly recognised the 12 Sqn badge.

It was commemorating the crash site of a Lancaster crew that had crashed there on a training flight. Another car had stopped and the two young men using the memorial for another purpose were very embarrassed when Mrs PN and I stopped.

Cows getting bigger

26th Apr 2015, 20:06

Yes, you can find such small memories everywhere. This one commemorates Mike Andrews and Steve Todd at Shap (https://www.google.com/maps/@54.534443,-2.678745,3a,75y,26.67h,61.7t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1st0PsTT2mbQ67BDvDLhT7qA!2e0)

Janda

27th Apr 2015, 00:38

I was sat in my office at RAF Spadeadam thinking about lunch when I got a call from my wife telling me that an RAF aircraft had crashed in the Outer Hebrides with 10 on board. Something told me it was an 8 Sqn Shack a Squadron I had left 2 years before. So sad to lose so many friends and the RAF to lose 10 good men. RIP guys.

Old-Duffer

27th Apr 2015, 05:36

Pontious,

PM sent as requested.

O-D

rolling20

27th Apr 2015, 08:51

IIRC the OC8 Squadron was the brother in law of David Sole, the then Scotland rugby union captain.

Pontius Navigator

27th Apr 2015, 09:25

Jacanda, gaggers?

Old-Duffer

27th Apr 2015, 10:43

rolling 20,

Correct.

OC 8 had a Nimrod pedigree and had ejected from a JP during training. It might have been that the injuries sustained in that accident did not permit him to fly on an ejection seat but this is just my musing and I have no evidence for that.

O-D

Pontius Navigator

27th Apr 2015, 12:12

OD, he was our co on Nimrods. His size might have ruled out FJ.

Wensleydale

29th Apr 2015, 09:11

There will be a memorial service for Gambia 08's crew at the Alpha Hangar, RAF Waddington at 1000 tomorrow 30th April. Names need to be with the Sqn Assn Secretary by tonight. (Sorry for the late call - I only just found out myself).

OldAgeandTreachery

30th Apr 2015, 10:16

BBC Scotland news article. More lazy journalism( Maritime Patrol,8 Sqd.)

screws4jets

9th Apr 2018, 19:13

On 30 Apr 1990, I was attending a Flight Safety Officer's course at Adastral. During the welcome introduction, the senior officer giving the chat said "Well, it's been a good year so far, chaps, let's keep it that way. Mind you, perhaps I'd better not tempt fate - the last time I said that someone went and pranged. Anyway, enjoy the course!".

We started the course at 09:15, so it was probably at the very moment he'd been talking that WR965 Dylan crashed into the Isle of Harris at 10:37, killing the entire 10 man crew.....

RIP

Hi everyone,
Uncanny and tragic. My father was on that plane. Squadron Ldr Jerry Lane. I was 14 at the time, and still feel a slump in my day to day life approaching the date. I have so many questions about the accident, but not sure I want or need to know more. I know my Dad was doing a job he loved and with people (as far as I know) he was bonded to.
I loved those aircraft too, and am glad for vids of those engines starting up or flying over. Really makes me feel like a happy/sad kid again.
Love and Respect to all involved in 8 squadron and RIP Dylan crew.

Pure Pursuit

9th Apr 2018, 21:53

QUOTE=BEagle;8954833]On 30 Apr 1990, I was attending a Flight Safety Officer's course at Adastral. During the welcome introduction, the senior officer giving the chat said "Well, it's been a good year so far, chaps, let's keep it that way. Mind you, perhaps I'd better not tempt fate - the last time I said that someone went and pranged. Anyway, enjoy the course!".

We started the course at 09:15, so it was probably at the very moment he'd been talking that WR965 Dylan crashed into the Isle of Harris at 10:37, killing the entire 10 man crew.....

RIP

Hi everyone,
Uncanny and tragic. My father was on that plane. Squadron Ldr Jerry Lane. I was 14 at the time, and still feel a slump in my day to day life approaching the date. I have so many questions about the accident, but not sure I want or need to know more. I know my Dad was doing a job he loved and with people (as far as I know) he was bonded to.
I loved those aircraft too, and am glad for vids of those engines starting up or flying over. Really makes me feel like a happy/sad kid again.
Love and Respect to all involved in 8 squadron and RIP Dylan crew.

Just tried to PM you without any luck....

screws4jets

10th Apr 2018, 07:33

Hi everyone,
Uncanny and tragic. My father was on that plane. Squadron Ldr Jerry Lane. I was 14 at the time, and still feel a slump in my day to day life approaching the date. I have so many questions about the accident, but not sure I want or need to know more. I know my Dad was doing a job he loved and with people (as far as I know) he was bonded to.
I loved those aircraft too, and am glad for vids of those engines starting up or flying over. Really makes me feel like a happy/sad kid again.
Love and Respect to all involved in 8 squadron and RIP Dylan crew.

Just tried to PM you without any luck....[/QUOTE]

Apologies, I’m new to this forum.
Not sure where I would receive a PM? My email, or does my user name have an inbox?

Distant Voice

10th Apr 2018, 08:48

No independent Fatal Accident Inquiry carried out because of the Scottish system. Similar accident over England or Wales would have resulted in an inquest. BoIs and SIs are simply MoD in-house inquires; much like marking your own homework.

DV

Shackman

10th Apr 2018, 11:27

Is it really 28 years since this happened?

I have kept quiet about this accident for a long time, as Jerry had been a good friend and mentor of mine. He was the nav 1 on the first crew I joined on 205 Sqn in Singapore, and for a brief period he was my Captain (or I was his 1st Pilot) on 8 Sqn. In my own opinion the seeds of this accident were sown when 8 Sqn formed, and despite the best efforts of the front end crews - almost all ex maritime - all the old Coastal Command/Maritime SOPs, which had been produced through experience and trial and error (and accidents) over the previous decades, were rejected by the AEW side of the Sqn as unnecessary (they were used to flying in the Gannet at greater heights without any of the 'peculiarities' of the Shackleton); not only unnecessary but on AEW Course 1 the new AEW leader (ex RN) with no Shackleton experience stated that his operators would not apply any of them nor recognise them.
One of the major ones was the SOP for the radar operator to call 'land on track' (normally at 4 miles) just in case the Nav was otherwise occupied - this was deemed an unnecessary distraction by him and WOULD NOT BE DONE, Besides, AN/APS 20(i) was not configured to see land!! However. all the guys I flew with seemed to be able to do so, even at relatively short range.
However, this did not mean it was not done - a quiet agreement on a crew normally led to it being called, although never when he was on board - but as it wasn't policy, with new crews it slowly died out anyway.
Of course, although an SOP similar to this might have prevented it, this was never mentioned at the BoI. There was criticism certainly of some of the ways the Sqn had evolved, but in the end most of the blame went towards the crew.

I should stress this is my own opinion, but as a founder member of the Sqn I was deeply saddened by the accident and the loss of some good people.

screws4jets if you wish to get in touch please PM me.

The Old Fat One

10th Apr 2018, 14:05

caped crusader

12th Apr 2018, 07:16

Shackman,

Check your PMs.

CC

screws4jets

12th Apr 2018, 08:10

Hi shackman,
Thanks for your reply. Your opinion is an interesting insight, and nice to hear you worked with my father. I was recently visiting my Mother in the old family home near Forres and I visited Kinloss air museum with my daughter. Home is enough to trigger memories, but the air museum, especially the smell, and chatting with the guys working there really brought memories flooding back.
Thanks again I might just PM you.
All the best.

screws4jets

12th Apr 2018, 08:21

Screws4jets, Condolences for your loss and the hole it has left.

Intuitively I would advise you to let sleeping dogs lie, but I'm no counsellor. If you do feel the urge to do a little digging, maybe talk it through with a trained professional first?

Hello Old Fat One,
Thanks for your advice. I agree but it seems I can’t help poking that old black dog from time to time! I’m fine really (honest!) It was my wife, who is a mental health nurse, that noticed my behaviour and joined up the dots. She may have a point, or perhaps I just hate spring!
Thanks again, all the best,
Jeremy

Hosepipe

1st May 2018, 10:12

Thanks for the insight; I lost an old mucker of mine in this crash, and always wondered why the Radar had not been used to avoid the hill. I'm not familiar with the AN/APS 20, but would have thought that it would still see the radar shadow (cutoff) from the hill. Its not the first time that 'new brooms' have ignored hard won experience; sad that in this case it appears to be a major contribution to the accident.

Pontius Navigator

1st May 2018, 11:09

They AN/APS 20 was a fickle beast as were the engine driven generators whose output would vary with engine rpm. The radar required a stable power input that was achieved with an engine Rom of 2175. Now we never considered how the radar would operate with higher, lower, or changing rpm. It was a given that it was 2175 or nowt. Maybe 2175 gave optimum performance or lower rpm may have caused it to trip and higher to be damaged.

Whatever the facts we never queried the SOP to shut it down once we had finished our task. As for not seeing land, that is a nonsense as we used geographical features as reporting reference points. Certainly it was not effective as a mapping radar but could function as a coarse terrain warner.

Shackman has it right, .

Shack1970

26th Jul 2018, 14:41

Hello everyone,
Im an aviation enthusiast from Isle of Lewis and along with others are thinking of a memorial for crew which is acceptable and accessible.
We have both main wheels from wr965 and various other items saved from scrap man.
The story of Aircraft and its crew to be never forgotten and those brave crew of shacks .
Respect ...

FJW

6th Apr 2019, 22:42

capewrath

7th Apr 2019, 11:10

Dear All
I’ve just read this thread with great interest. I suppose, like Jeremy, I’m also still looking for answers as my father was also on that aircraft; I’m Roger Scutt’s daughter. If anyone has any other information not already discussed on here, please message me if you feel so inclined.
Many thanks.
Fiona

A few months I purchased a book (I have not begun reading it yet) "Lost to the Isles by David W. Earl & Peter Dobson - ISBN 978-0-9523928-8-0
That book has a 19 page chapter about the accident (with pictures - including the crew). Hopefully you will find that helpful.

Pontius Navigator

7th Apr 2019, 11:32

FJW, see PM

Strucky

7th Apr 2019, 14:13

FJW - tried to send PM, but your inbox was full. I was on 8 Sqn and flew with your father.

FJW

7th Apr 2019, 15:07

Thank you, I don't know how to fix the inbox problem!
My email is [email protected], please resend if you get a minute.
Thank you,
Fiona

FJW

7th Apr 2019, 15:08

Thank you for this - I will look it up.
F.

India Four Two

7th Apr 2019, 15:42

FJW

7th Apr 2019, 17:58

Fiona,

No one can send you a PM because you are a new user. I think you need ten posts to be able to send and receive PMs.

Your only alternative is to post an email address. If you do that I suggest you obfuscate it, using spaces, AT etc. and I suggest you use a specially setup temporary address - do not use your normal email address.

India Four Two, thank you for this, I've done a couple of quick replies to people but I don't know if they have worked. I'll see if they reply!

India Four Two

7th Apr 2019, 23:37

Fiona,

Sorry I missed reading your post before I posted mine. You might want to consider changing your email address in the future - you may get a lot of spam now. ;)

I hope you get some good information about your father.

matkat

8th Apr 2019, 23:02

A few months I purchased a book (I have not begun reading it yet) "Lost to the Isles by David W. Earl & Peter Dobson - ISBN 978-0-9523928-8-0
That book has a 19 page chapter about the accident (with pictures - including the crew). Hopefully you will find that helpful.
Cape, would that be the same Pete Dobson that was on XV Buccs?

Pontius Navigator

9th Apr 2019, 07:44

Cape, would that be the same Pete Dobson that was on XV Buccs?
Or was that Mike Dobson?

Matkat got it wrong, it was Peter Robson.

capewrath

9th Apr 2019, 22:31

Cape, would that be the same Pete Dobson that was on XV Buccs?

Unfortunately the book gives no information on him.

NumptyAussie

30th Apr 2020, 10:30

30 years today.

https://heavywhalley.wordpress.com/2020/04/29/the-shackleton-crash-isle-of-harris/?fbclid=IwAR1lIOZCkbiccZVKtN1e7PjjQ5IWFkMSXpAPdS3ZdfDw4afbkS q-7k8AarQ

Distant Voice

3rd May 2020, 10:38

Further to my post #35 of 10th April 2018 I wrote to the First Minister of Scotland on 10th Dec 2018 and pointed out the following,

Over the years Lord Advocates have not shown any appetite to hold FAIs into a military death in Scotland. I now call on the Scottish government to set up a Public Inquiry into how it has been possible, for forty years, for successive Lord Advocates to avoid holding any discretionary FAIs on public interest grounds for military deaths in Scotland. According to a recent report, 'Beyond Endurance - Military Exercises and the Duty of Care', dated 24th April 2016, there were 13 military training/exercise deaths in Scotland between Jan 2000 and Feb 2016, not a single one resulted in an FAI (confirmed in an FOI letter from COPFS). In 1990 when a Lossiemouth Shackleton crashed on South Harris, killing a crew of 10, the UK parliament was informed that an FAI would not be held and the Lord Advocate does not have to give reasons. From April 1977 to Nov 1987 RAF Lossiemouth lost eight Jaguar aircraft and nine crew members, but no FAI. Of these losses Lord Mackay of Clashfern has informed me that he remembers these accidents and remembers discussing them with a senior RAF officer in Glasgow, but has no memory of discussing an FAI.

In the First Minister's reply it is pointed out that,

"Any decision by the Lord Advocate in his capacity as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland shall continue to be taken by him independently of any other person"

Up until mid 2017 there was little chance of any independent inquiry being carried out in Scotland for a military death, probably due to a Lord Advocate/MoD protocol.

DV

Tashengurt

3rd May 2020, 21:18

Moving account from Heavy Whalley. MRT to the core. The Scottish teams had a tough few years and I know it affected some deeply and still does.

NumptyAussie

28th Apr 2022, 23:45

There will be a memorial in Northton, Isle of Harris, on Saturday 30th April 2022 the Seallam Centre Car park at noon. They are unveiling a ground memorial.

Strucky

29th Apr 2022, 07:25

I flew the same sortie the day before..
I was meant to fly on this mission..
I had an abscess in a tooth, swollen face and was told to go sick..
I was a very junior squadron member..
I will never talk about squadron personalities..
It was a real shock to the squadron - the accident and aftermath..
Ten years later I suffered from 'survivors guilt'..
It was not my time..

flown-it

2nd May 2022, 17:33

I was one of the R.N. observers posted to 8 Squadron to help train the RAF in airborne Fighter Control and Airborne Early Warning techniques.

As the aircraft’s TACO I was responsible for the aircraft but only once we were on station. When doing Continuation Training, transit to/from station or (as on one occasion) 10 plus hours of low level survivor search I and my fellow AEW operators were mere talking ballast.

Pilot 1 and Nav 1 were in charge.

The AN-APS 20 radar was more than capable of detecting coast lines. Over land it was pretty useless. An accurate way to remove aircraft motion from the radar picture (i.e. GPS) was a long way in the future.

I was in California from 1973 to 1976 and in April 1977 resigned to pursue a career as a pilot. At some stage prior to 1973 as noted above I was on 8 squadron but I left after a little over a year. I also trained a number of RAF navigators who were posted to 849 Squadron to learn AEW techniques in anticipation of the formation of an AEW squadron in RAF colours. The majority were great! A tiny minority less so and at least one of these individuals ended up in a management role in 8 squadron.

I think it relevant to note that on 14 February 1979 the last aircraft carrier (HMS Ark Royal) was decommissioned and all fixed wing RN AEW was given over to the rotary fleet.

Thus those fixed wing R.N. observers who helped 8 squadron transition to the AEW role were long gone by the time this dreadful accident occurred.