Possible new humanitarian/rescue operation coming up.

[Hangarshuffle]

Spin off from the long running Maritime aircraft requirement.


Cameron and Clegg admit axing search and rescue in Mediterranean has failed | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/22/cameron-and-clegg-admit-axeing-search-and-rescue-in-mediterranean-has-failed)


EU leaders convene shortly to talk about what to do about the Med refugee crisis. I think I read the death toll of poor drowned people is x20 to what it was this time last year.
Something must be done. Although to quote the Irish man, I wouldn't start from here.
My guess is the RN and RFA with appropriate RM back up will be tasked to bring in an appropriate rescue capability, to find and lift out refugees and reduce the overall death rate. Just a guess mind-watch and see.
What the RAF will assist with (and I also bet they have to), I don't know.
I could be wrong, but I think the constant pressure of TV images of drowning people is having an affect on EU politicians images and ratings, and they must be seen to act. Italy and Malta were crying out for help the other night on BBC.
May be votes in it, maybe not and it may inflame the right wing element NO camp, so UK politicians right now will have to play a canny game on this one.
But I think they have to act and so does the military, now. Sorry.

[NutLoose]

The problem I see is in rescuing them and bringing them to Europe, it will simply encourage more to try knowing they only need to get so far out, somehow the action to stop them attempting it needs to be at the departure end, possibly by assisting their Governments..

The other option is to return those rescued via a LCT or similar straight back onto the shore they departed from, the other unpalatable option would be to sink any likely ship or boats etc in the harbours along their coastline.

Personally I would simply not allow them entry nor any form of asylum application and use the LCT option to return them from whence they came.


..

[Hangarshuffle]

That option may happen, but what if they are dying? Do you expect UK servicemen to dump people on a beach and leave them?
Its an absolute growing crisis that's been coming for months and it is now and needs serious solutions.
We, the UK in a way have assisted the creation of this crisis.

[Hangarshuffle]

People on here hate me for putting these threads up. But I've watched for years this crisis coming, and its going to get dumped onto the UK military (what remains of it) to assist with other EU military in applying a sticking plaster. Read Cleggs comments, he is really hinting at it.


"Now we need to make sure we do more to save lives. That will involve more search and rescue and there is a contribution I’m sure we can make to that".


Something is coming up for some of you.
RAF should be making something more of it, leverage for new patrol aircraft. So should the Navy.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mrs PN suggests segregation. Mothers, children, and proven fathers be admitted and considered for asylum. Young fit men are almost certainly economic migrants and should be returned to point of departure.

Blockading Libyian ports would certainly reduce the potential for drowning from overcrowding.

[NutLoose]

Hangarshuffle, if they are dying or injured they should be treated before returning them, but that can be carried out on board a hospital ship or similar. They then can be returned.

I surprises me they haven't tried it to access the UK.

[Saintsman]

Lets face it, once they are across they won't get sent back so we may as well cut out the middle man and ship them in ourselves. At least that way we are in control.

The only way to stop it is to stop it being so attractive in the first place. If, in effect, they are given free food, clothing and housing once they are here, it is not a great deterrent.

Perhaps the large sums of money that government spend on them should be spent on making their original places more enticing, that way they wouldn't need to leave.

Of course we all know that if that were the case, most of the money would be syphoned off anyway and things would be no better...

[6000PIC]

What a mess. Criminal , illegitimate , incompetent and unelected African governments encourage and perpetuate an emigration of their populations northwards to an overcrowded and increasingly poor Europe. Too proud and guilty of their own colonial history to say no , Europe's future looks bleak. Combine this ticking time bomb with the rise of radical Islam throughout Europe , an enormous demographic shift , Greek weakness , a failed European diplomatic and currency project and it's not much of a leap to conclude that a war is on the horizon. European death by 1000 cuts.

[Robert Cooper]

The politicians have to move before the military can do anything, and they aren't going to do squat. Obama and Hillary caused the current mess in Libya, so perhaps they should sort it out.

Bob C

[Melchett01]

Hangarshuffle said:

"Now we need to make sure we do more to save lives. That will involve more search and rescue and there is a contribution I’m sure we can make to that".

Is that the sound of chickens coming home to roost? Or is it merely the anguished cries of the leaders' wives at yet another kitchen table supper? Where on earth do these people think we can keep rustling up capability from whilst they keep cutting it and neglecting what's left??? We might be able to do more SAR if we hadn't chopped the carrier, the entire MPA fleet and signalled the death of the SAR fleet.

If we're going to do anything I can only see one viable COA. Assuming Ex Cougar runs again this year, then it goes to the Med and involves HMS Ocean, LPDs and various RFAs and hospital/ casualty ships. Embarked, the SAR cabs have a final hurrah alongside the Merlins, whilst the AH are used in support of counter-ISIL ops in Libya. This would have to be part of a multinational effort given the scale if the problem and a decision needs to be made right now, most likely at tomorrow's Special Meeting of the European Council in order to get ahead of planning to and decision timelines if they are to be on station in time for the best weather when there's an even greater surge of people making a run for it. Waiting until after the election and someone making a decision will be too late.

Above all else, there must be no further cuts regardless of whether Defence is ring fenced or not and there must be an assessment of what else drops off in order to meet this commitment - don't even think about trying to go to Yemen if we're going to do this. And finally, there must be a coherent policy and strategy (there's that S word again!) to deal with the crux of the problem rather than just treating the symptoms. Without a coherent policy and strategy you'll end up with a constant roulement of people earning frequent flier miles as they head out to sea, sink, get rescued by SAR, return home and start the whole sorry saga once again.

That's it Mr Clegg. That's your option. And it will be very very expensive. Other than that the cupboard is not only bare, the door is hanging off the hinges and even the church mouse having a look inside seems distinctly unimpressed. The RAF - pulling rabbits out of hats since 1918.

[DirtyProp]

What a mess. Criminal , illegitimate , incompetent and unelected African governments encourage and perpetuate an emigration of their populations northwards to an overcrowded and increasingly poor Europe. Too proud and guilty of their own colonial history to say no , Europe's future looks bleak. Combine this ticking time bomb with the rise of radical Islam throughout Europe , an enormous demographic shift , Greek weakness , a failed European diplomatic and currency project and it's not much of a leap to conclude that a war is on the horizon. European death by 1000 cuts. Amen to that!
We are victims of our own stupidity and self-righteousness...

[smujsmith]

Melchett, top post IMHO ! Whilst we remain the sheople we are, re electing the same old same old, we get no change, and the whole hand wringing mess is prolonged. Your description of the cutting yet demanding more is, as usual, accurate and to the point. Perhaps a vote for someone new come 7 May might be appropriate.

Smudge :ok:

[Robert Cooper]

The migration crisis in its current iteration stems from the fall of Libya's Muammar Qaddafi. Under Qaddafi, Libya worked closely with Europe to control the flow of migrants across the Mediterranean. But the country's chaos has upended that. In 2010, Europe was moving quickly to normalize relations with the former dictator. Oil interests played a role, but so did the desire of many European nations to outsource migrant control to the North African country.
Mr. Qaddafi was well aware of European alarm at the rising tide of migrants in his final years in power. He used it as a powerful wedge to improve his own standing. Back to 2004, Qaddafi began making deals with individual European states to control the tide of migrants. In August 2010, he visited his friend Silvio Berlusconi, then president of Italy, in Rome and said Europe would turn "black" without his help.
The U.S.-NATO intervention that toppled Moammar Gadhafi has led to an Islamist state where young militant men with heavy firepower control the country’s airports, harbors and major roads. Militias roam the countryside. Former al Qaeda terrorists and Taliban fighters have infiltrated the country, targeting moderate Muslims and blacks. The nation is splintering along ideological, sectarian and tribal lines. This is not a victory for humanitarianism but anarchy.
Libya's chaos has once more made it a major way station for Africans seeking a better life, as the European Union grapples with the morality of cutting back on patrols to rescue migrants. The argument for doing less is that increasing the risk of crossing the Mediterranean would save lives. Word that there was no safety net would filter back to people, many of them fleeing persecution, and they'd stop coming.
“We do not support planned search and rescue operations in the Mediterranean,” British Foreign Office Minister Joyce Anelay said last year. Rescues have “an unintended ‘pull factor,' encouraging more migrants to attempt the dangerous sea crossing and thereby leading to more tragic and unnecessary deaths,” she argued.
Obama and NATO have a lot to answer for here. Melchett’s solution via Ex Cougar may be the answer.

[Mal Drop]

Bobster, in a race to blame Obama for everything, you seem to have gone on a poorly-executed 'I can haz copypasta' exercise in which 'Muammar Qaddafi' suddenly becomes 'Moammar Gadhafi'.

It's a poor attempt to place all available blame on the current incumbent of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue (rather than on the bumblefark good ole boy who lit the blue touchpaper in the Middle East in 2003 before retiring to a safe distance to paint pictures of his feet). And by the way, it was the the Blessed St. Ronnie of Gipper who ordered the 1986 bombing of Libya, so attempts to absolve the GOP of responsibility fail on yet another level.

1/10 for trying.

[Not_a_boffin]

Call me a pedant, but ISTR Op El Dorado Canyon was actually a retaliation for the Libyan bombing of a Berlin disco (preceded by much c0cking about in the Gulf of Sirte and Chad) and had the effect of significantly reducing the practical (if not verbal) level of support for the 80s brand of Arabic terrorist.

I may be wrong, but one of the less-trumpeted (by some) consequences of Op Telic/OIF was that a certain N African dictator, having realised that people were getting serious about WMD proliferation, suddenly coughed to maintaining both production and storage facilities for some rather unpleasant nasties and offered to destroy them under supervision (with an aid package, natch).

Now IMPO Barry O'Bama is a bit of an @rse, but he has undisputedly suggested to Europe that it's about time it stood on its own two feet and looked after interests on its own doorstep, rather than expecting Uncle Sam to pop up and do the necessary instead. And about time too.

Much like Iraq, people are way too quick to get a dose of rose-tinted hindsight when sh1t happens and immediately activate the "blame whichever western government suits your political position" switch, rather than point out that this is in fact an African / Arabian governance issue, exacerbated by an ongoing Sunni/Shia proxy war. It's got very little to do with the West, other than the fact that our media luvvies expect the West to somehow sort it out, because "something must be done!"

Don't forget that a major contributory factor in all this was the media-led "Arab Spring", where a bunch of half-witted (if we're being charitable) journos tried to portray things as an outbreak of happiness where the masses would magically discover pluralist democracy, all enabled by the enlightened support of the religion of peace. Which was a stretch of the actualite to put it mildly.

The actual trigger for the Op Ellamy was the threatened extermination of the rebels and civpop of Benghazi. Whether it was a good idea to extend that operation into provision of an air capability for the rebels is a different question. However - the vision of what happens when you don't intervene is also available in technicolour in Syria and it's not like that's going well for the civpop either.

Short version - the cause of all this is not "the West". It's not the Red Sea Pedestrians either. It's actually a vicious sectarian war being played out between Sunni and Shia, with lashings of poverty thrown in as well. To fix it would require intervention on the ground at a scale that we have tested to destruction whether the public will support - and the answer is, they won't.

Unpleasant as it is, we have to learn to live with it and prevent it spreading to Europe, proper.

[teeteringhead]

Not_a_boffin

:D:D:D pojmlm lokdw popwo

[Ronald Reagan]

As Predicted: Overthrow of Qaddafi Led to Horrific Migrant Crisis in Europe / Sputnik International (http://sputniknews.com/africa/20150423/1021247040.html#ixzz3Y84V5lXK)



West Should Take Responsibility for Chaos in Libya ? Prime Minister / Sputnik International (http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20150415/1020944954.html#ixzz3Y84csyqk)

[Surplus]

As Predicted: Overthrow of Qaddafi Led to Horrific Migrant Crisis in Europe / Sputnik International
West Should Take Responsibility for Chaos in Libya ? Prime Minister / Sputnik International

What proportion of the refugees are from Libya? I suspect not very many.

To stop people dying at sea, you intercept them, look after them medically and process them offshore. Those who are deemed to be true refugees, then get offered settlement in whatever country is willing to take them. Those who are deemed to be economic refugees get returned to the point of origin, in unsinkable lifeboats if needed. Sound familiar? Economic refugees from Iran, Sri Lanka and various other countries stopped paying the people smugglers when they realised the best they could hope for was PNG citizenship and not Australian.

[melmothtw]

No, no, no Surplus, don't feed the troll!! :oh:

Actually, I suspect there are two Kremlin troll-bots using the Ronald moniker - one that does actually have something reasonably interesting to say occasionally, and another who is only capable of posting links to RT/Sputnik/CCTV/Press TV et al, with no reasoned thoughts of his own to add.

Sadly, the latter appears to have resurfaced again (I guess they must be working them in shifts).

[Surplus]

That's ok, I've got plenty of time now I'm not doing SAR in the Timor sea ;)

[Ronald Reagan]

Surplus, the point is also that a stable Libya under Gaddafi was able to stop many migrants before they reached the coast.

[Surplus]

Yes, you're right, he was well known for his humanitarian approach to his and other nation's people.

since you like links so much here's one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

[Ronald Reagan]

Surplus, the choice in Libya was Gaddafi or terrorists. We now have a situation where IS and other groups can thrive in Libya. At least one could sit down and deal with Gaddafi. Libya was so safe you could visit as a tourist. I would not want to be doing that these days!
Another broken nation thanks to the west. The west wanted to do the same in Syria handing the entire nation to terrorists like IS.

[Surplus]

I guess that the difference between you and I is that I wouldn't have gone to Libya when he was in charge, I suspect that with your views, you'd have been made very welcome. I wouldn't like to see you outed, but you're not George Galloway are you?

I apologise for hogging the thread with my new friend.

[Wander00]

Well I guess privatised SAR assets would not be used, which leaves................

[FODPlod]

...three (presumably Fleet Air Arm) helos embarked in HMS Bulwark (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/our-organisation/the-fighting-arms/surface-fleet/assault-ships/hms-bulwark) plus a couple of Border Force patrol vessels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Force#Vessels):Cameron pledges to send HMS Bulwark and helicopters in bid to 'smash' the smuggler gangs (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11557074/Mediterranean-migrant-crisis-EU-leaders-meet-for-emergency-summit-live.html)


..."What we are dealing with here is a real tragedy in the Mediterranean. Today's meeting has got to be about saving lives. Now saving lives means rescuing these poor people, but it also means smashing the gangs and stabilising the region. Now Britain, as ever, will help.

We'll use our aid budget to help stabilise neighbouring countries. And as the country in Europe with the biggest defence budget, we can make a real contribution.

I'll be offering the Royal Navy Flagship, HMS Bulwark, with three helicopters and two other border patrol ships, which will be able to help with these operations."

Cameron stresses that people will be taken to the nearest port - likely Italy - and would not be given recourse to asylum in the UK.

"When these tragedies happen, Britain is always there - and this time is no exception"...

[Hangarshuffle]

I understand Bulwark. Its the only asset remaining, with Albion being withdrawn. Is Ocean available?
Bulwark has no hangar, an important point here if the operation is to last the summer, and not just up to the UK election.
I don't understand the Border Force vessel concept in this role here, someone explain to me. The Wiki blurb says they are coastal cutters, manned by civilians and are part of the Home Office.
Are they used to operating as part of a military force? I never worked with them. Learn as they go along?
I would have sent a T45 to escort Bulwark, and they have the ability to embark up to 50 RM as I recall, can launch and operate 2 x FRC, can operate up to size Merlin, spare deck....
I would back up with a Bay Class RFA as well- we still have 3, are spare deck, have big tank hold and dock, lots of room inside.
Element of high risk to our service people with this - this area is now active with AQ and more. They will be exposed to trap and ambush as they investigate these boats and people.
The absolute desperation of the poor souls fleeing the many war zones shouldn't be underestimated either.
Pass the financial cost into the EU pot-everyone should put in on this one.
HS.
The BBC report said the people involved are fleeing from Nigeria, Syria, Ethiopia and Somalia.

[Hangarshuffle]

This is just a tiny sticking plaster, its for the cameras, the polls and the vanity of the politicians. Cameron...where to start?...airheaded and shallow doesn't do him justice.
The question is how to keep these poor people in their own countries in the first place, and for that nobody seems to be leading at all.


I would pay them money to return - at least double or treble what it cost them to reach the departure ports in the first place, and I would ensure a safe passage return.
Italy has asked permission from the EU to sink pirate boats in port, before they depart.
Establish a safe zone (for arriving refugees, and guarded or set up by EU military) onshore Libya will probably be put on the table, but that will be very fraught and risky I would imagine.

[Surplus]

Hangarshuffle

I would pay them money to return - at least double or treble what it cost them to reach the departure ports in the first place, and I would ensure a safe passage return.

It was tried by Australia with the Sri Lankan economic refugees, they were given money to go back and a civvie aircraft was chartered to take them back. It was stopped when the same people were caught a few weeks later back on a boat repeating the trip just for the money. They got off the aircraft and straight onto another boat.

[FODPlod]

...Is Ocean available?...

HMS OCEAN finishes playing a central role in Ex JOINT WARRIOR off Scotland today: Scores of ships and aircraft from 13 countries to take part in Nato war games (http://www.pprune.org/Scores of ships and aircraft from 13 countries to take part in Nato war games)


...Scores of ships and aircraft from 13 countries will take part in war games, in an unprecedented show of military strength. The Nato exercises off Scotland involve at least 55 warships, 70 aircraft and 13,000 sailors and will include submarine hunts, amphibious landings and ship against ship attacks.

They take place against a background of rising concern about Russian expansionism but the Ministry of Defence said the Exercise Joint Warrior war games are a twice-yearly exercise rather than a response to any specific threat. However, the Joint Warrior exercises are the biggest yet held by Nato and are intended to act as a show of strength while honing the ability of member nations to co-operate in the event of an attack...

HMS Ocean, which in June will become the Navy’s Fleet Flagship [vice HMS BULWARK], has just completed a refit and is expected to join the exercise...

[ShotOne]

Sadly, we're not likely to get anything resembling sensible policy right now from the government -or the opposition for that matter. Thanks to the millions of migrants rolled in by Mr Blair, immigration is such a toxic issue that even taking a few hundred of the most desperate refugees is off the table. I'm glad I'm not the Captain of HMS Bulwark!

[FODPlod]

...I'm glad I'm not the Captain of HMS Bulwark!

No worries. He's a Lynx observer (also a Principle Warfare Officer rather than a Principal Warfare Officer).Captain Nick Cooke Priest Royal Navy (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/%7E/media/royal%20navy%20responsive/documents/profiles/cooke-priest%20nick.pdf)

[Martin the Martian]

Any ideas whose supplying the rotary winged element? Commando Force still working up on the HC.3, Merlin HM force just back from Sierra Leone... three Whirlwinds dragged out from the FAAM, perchance? Or 771 being tasked with the job as it's mainly SAR?

[FODPlod]

Any ideas whose supplying the rotary winged element?
Options are limited so we can guess.UK confirms military contribution to the Mediterranean (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2015/april/24/150424-uk-confirms-military-contribution-to-the-mediterranean)
HMS Bulwark, three Merlin MK2 helicopters and two civilian border patrol boats will deploy in light of recent tragedies...Merlin Mk 2 Submarine Hunter (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/the-equipment/aircraft/helicopters/merlin-mk2)
The Merlin Mk2 is already in the thick of major naval exercises with 820, 824 and 829 Naval Air Squadrons and 820 Naval Air Squadron will soon deploy with the UK’s Response Force Task Group...

[Hangarshuffle]

Not saying I told you so but I knew this day would come eventually. Like the perfect storm of famine, war, political turmoil, energy resource war, fundamental religion, intolerance and much more has settled over large areas of the earth and people want to escape it and come to relatively calm and wealthy Europe.
I can only see it continuing (this current exodus) for many more years to come, which perhaps makes the RNs recent tasking what? Unsustainable? Gloomy end piece but anyway good luck lads and lasses RN.

[Hangarshuffle]

Was on C4 news tonight with MOD footage. Already picked up 400 people. Bulwark has been doing this already for over a week and was on task in something like 5 days from sailing Devonport.
A tremendous reflection on the Captain, ship and people involved.
But I feel for the poor people picked up. Unloved and unwanted. Even the way the bootnecks were tossing the lifejackets at them seemed to indicate it, somehow. What the future for the refugee, if they even have one?

[Hangarshuffle]

BBc are reporting tonight the mission is now increasing somewhat...RN will now be looking to carry out search and destroy missions of the boats used to transport the refugees. Presumably this is along the south med coastline, in harbour, in Commando raids.
Did I hear it right? I've had a few pints.
They are all making it up as they go along. Once again UK forces are deployed into combat (which it is, no matter how you split it) and the matter is hardly even debated in Parliament.
I will try and find a source, unless someone can help me.?
This is on the radio news now, sort of slotted in at half time in the Chelsea/West Brom game somewhere in a story about the NHS and some other dross.

[Hangarshuffle]

UK to offer drones to help combat people-smugglers in Libya | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/18/uk-drones-combat-people-smugglers-libya)


They must have been spooked. RFA Lyme Bay+ more helicopters/drones. etc.
Basically its moving to a more defensive "war on boats" rather than a humanitarian rescue force for the refugees.
Some on prune will be creaming their knicks at this but to me, its just sad, the West turning their guns yet again on the unarmed and hopeless and helpless.

[Hangarshuffle]

Half a million refugees gather in Libya to attempt perilous crossing to Europe | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/06/cameron-merkel-at-odds-resettle-refugees-europe-migration)


Up to half a million (yes I looked twice as well) refugees now waiting to cross the Med and invade Europe. Going to be the crisis of the Summer.
Well, bombing the blazes out of North Africa doesn't look such a good idea now.But we are where we are (through mismanagement and poor overall strategy, hand wringers and do-gooders).
Royal Navy (what remains of its small rump, and that is Bulwark) seem to be totally overtaken by events here, and have simply become a ferry service for the refs. (who are instructed by their smugglers to sink their boats on sight of the RN to guarantee a pick up).
There was talk of sending in commandos to destroy all small boats along the coast of North Africa...hmmmm hasn't happened yet and not sure this can work without destroying the livelihood of many fisherman and genuine tab/drug smugglers etc.
We continue have a lawless coast/state right on the coast of southern Europe robustly pushing hundreds of thousands our way and none of the clever whities have a single solution how to really solve it.
Using the UK's RN so robustly (yet again in a fringe Europe land problem, see Bosnia,Kosovo,Libya,Beirut/Lebanon and many more) should be leverage for Cameron in his negotiation with Merkel over the UKs overall contribution to the EU-where's Germanys assault ship? .
Anyway, crack on you clever 100 odd well paid Admirals on the payroll with the one ship to play with on this one.
* Actually, considering Pruners normally pretty sensible approach to problems as a whole, if I were a minister or an Admiral reading this thread this morning how about considering (a) the PM unilaterally withdraws part of the UKs EU funding contribution (which is apparently something in the region of between 9 and 11 billion GBP for FY2015-16 depending on what and where you read or believe). (b) Use that money to (1) partially re-float part of the RN (HMS Albion and fund more capable vessels) and fund RN interdiction operations (2) Use the remainder to establish safe camps in North Africa for the genuine refugees (this is difficult I concede totally) (3) But vigorously maintain patrols along the Med. coastline to prevent further incursion by the refugees. (4) Pay some local warlords to get on side with us to "help".
Expensive but I think this would bring our PM some genuine support and be a practical sticking plaster solution over the Summer).
An absolute nightmare for UK forces of course, and potentially bloody and unpleasant as well.

[Lordflasheart]

24 April - He's a Lynx observer (also a Principle Warfare Officer rather than a Principal Warfare Officer).I believe the Principal Duty of a Principle Warfare Officer is to Dessimate the Henemy.

Perhaps we need to introduce a new specialization of Principle Welfare Officer because this isn't going to go away, and I can't see shooting solving the problem.

........ LFH

[Hangarshuffle]

Royal Navy rescues migrants from Mediterranean death boats off the shore of Libya | Daily Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-3114186/Royal-Navy-desperate-bid-save-500-migrants-four-boats-distress-seas-Libya.html)


This was just one days worth of people. Amazing quantities of people are now stacked up in Libya and seem to be being fed onwards like a conveyor.


Royal Marines faces tell a story in themselves, its not as if its a glamorous task that anyone wants.
Only one of these ships now available, thanks to the defence cuts and budget squeezes, so this ships company have a long old summer ahead doing this, and they just know it.
One of the refugees looks like he has a dental brace on. Most are fairly young and looking to do this out of financial gain, I'm guessing that. Some have taken their wives along, and they look iller and more stressed.


The west has walked right into this one. The warlords of Libya consistently outmanoeuvre HMG.

[dctyke]

The way it's going we might as well take out the middle man and pick them up straight off the beach! Tactics at the moment are hardly going to dissuade anyone from coming over, a way has to be found to return them to the African coastline.
I'm waiting to hear of the first inflatable to come over from France and beach at Clapton.......

[Courtney Mil]

The way it's going we might as well take out the middle man and pick them up straight off the beach! Tactics at the moment are hardly going to dissuade anyone from coming over, a way has to be found to return them to the African coastline.


Interesting. I'm fairly sure that I once read that the responsibility of a ship rescuing people from the sea extends as far as dropping them at the nearest suitable port. Patrol close enough to the countries the refugees come from and all HMS B needs to do is drop them back at home. When enough people pay $1000 dollars and then appear back on the dock looking jolly miffed, the rest will start to have second thoughts before buying their ticket.

[Chugalug2]

CM:-
Patrol close enough to the countries the refugees come from and all HMS B needs to do is drop them back at home. When enough people pay $1000 dollars and then appear back on the dock looking jolly miffed, the rest will start to have second thoughts before buying their ticket.Then home for tea and medals? I'll leave it to others better qualified than I to tell us what would be needed before HM warships could enter Libyan territorial waters, let alone enter its ports and hand over its 'passengers'.. to who exactly?

The country is in chaos and we all know why. The solution to that chaos and similar chaos in much of the rest of the African continent is, I would suggest, rather beyond the capabilities of HMS B or indeed the UK. Isn't there an international organisation charged with bringing peace to such war ridden areas? United what? Oh, it isn't? Oh well.

[Hangarshuffle]

Millions of dollars worth of petrochemical technology are currently all over Libya, being well guarded (for a fee) by the local warlords. Multinational Oil and Gas groups are using middle-men to contact these people to ensure their kit is looked after until a time mutually convenient to all to kick start production and extraction again. I heard this from a friend. However the Libyan state owned stuff was blown to atoms, so they could be waiting a while yet.


For the warlords the export of people is another very lucrative side-line, which they wont want closing down just yet.
The Royal Navy are now a very effective final delivery service of their plan as it were (bit like a British postman, simply sorts and post's the package through the door onto Europes mat, as it were-the money side of things (the cost of the stamp) being taken within the unseen houses of Libya. Its a nice little hustle at the moment with the emphasis firmly on the Europeans to sort out.


On Sky News last night the RN in a Merlin helicoptered one pregnant lady whose waters had broken to..Malta? The ship was last reported heading for Sicily with about 1500 refugees/travellers/fee payers onboard for process. They had undoubtedly saved their lives as the boat they were in could have capsized at any moment.
Sadly this event hasn't seemed to have been reflected in the radio news today, all about G7 and Europe.
The Bulwark had 1500 people and 12 chemical toilets for the lot, what's that about 125 per toilet. Real nasty sort of set up and a real risk of disease there in the Summer heat and dank air of that vessel.
Turnaround for the Bulwark could be what? 48 hours? Bet the lads are praying for an engine failure, or similar "accident" to prevent a return trip. Its all been done before.

[RA73]

well rounded comments with insight.

[Courtney Mil]

Then home for tea and medals? I'll leave it to others better qualified than I to tell us what would be needed before HM warships could enter Libyan territorial waters, let alone enter its ports and hand over its 'passengers'.. to who exactly?

To whom. Sorry, that just grates.

A simple request to land people rescued at sea should suffice. Worth a try. If denied then the law would accept an alternative port. Of course, the ship doesn't operate in isolation; they do have comms all the way back to the UK who could (if the will exists) arrange passage. If they could arrange passage for me in a 'warplane' at very short notice, I'm sure this could be tried. As the survivors are nationals of the country to which they are being returned, they probably don't need to be handed over to anyone, just the taxi driver for the ride home. Simplistic? Yes. But the alternative is to keep on rescuing these (yes, very infortunate) people. Once Europe has absorbed the entire population of troubled Africa, we may wish we'd handled it differently.

Isn't there an international organisation charged with bringing peace to such war ridden areas? United what? Oh, it isn't? Oh well.

Yep, International Rescue. :ok:

I'm not suggesting this is going to be easy, but someone will need to make a stand sometime soon.

[Hangarshuffle]

I mean the Captain and his officers on TV look exactly the right stuff. You need people like them and they are the utter salt of the earth.
But I've been on these horrible open ended deployment things myself. It draws down on you in the end, always. I worry about the lads who get the dirty end of the jobs down at the bottom end of the rung. I hope someone reading this who has some sort of input, can arrange the following;
(a) Seriously consider going to rotate the ships company of Bulwark through a cycle. Is topmast still in force and going? I would put them on a maximum 42 day cycle each. The Navy and the RM's ASRM can handle that. I mean it. Get the lads in and out over the 42 days. We have a spare capacity of people and the capability in airhead and money.
Reason-health/safety/efficiency/morale. This will be a long, long term goer of an operation. It is unrealistic to keep the same tiny percentage of lads in the Navy at the **** end of a long stick for a very long time.
(b) Get the Albion manned and out again, and start up the planning now as a replacement for the Bulwark. (This gives people hope for eventual relief for a ship on deployment-very important to the mindset of a twenty year old kid..)
(c) Get a plan going, a realistic one, for Libya. Have the Oil and Gas Multinationals involved, get them all together on an island, in London wherever but get a deal quickly on and get the whole country moving again. Money talks louder than prayers to Arabs and Africans and they need to get it going.
Otherwise its heading for an even bigger disaster than it already is.

[Jollygreengiant64]

Short of a stabilisation action across the whole of Africa, it seems to me that the only options left are the unsustainable one of the EU taking on the perpetual influx of migrants or, in my mind the only real option, creating an Israel type settlement somewhere in the region.

Maybe NE Libya (2 borders facing water/ 1 facing egypt) would be a logical choice. I don't think I need to explain the obvious benefits of having a relatively trustworthy standing military force in Egypt in the picture to the people on this forum, on this particular topic.

Another interesting thought is the possibility of Greece taking centre stage on this. Though I'm not sure on the specifics of Greek islands, perhaps there is scope to develop these into a permanent home for these displaced families. Islands would be a dream to police compared to anywhere on the continent. Conceivably, these islands could be donated by the Greek government, who are already looking to sell them off, in return for concession on their debt. The islands are more than likely to be worth more than they are currently sold for.

The main priority and key to solving this crisis, I'm sure you'll agree, is to help the displaced to help themselves; 'Give a man a fish' and all that... Hopefully by giving them somewhere they can call their own we can stem the rush to the UK, and the EU in general. Maybe we can even cut the supply of fighters to the warring factions.

I think the real irony is that this type of rehoming would be much cheaper in the long run than anything we will actually try, and that it will be much easier than simply changing our benefit law to make our intake more sustainable in the long run.

[Courtney Mil]

Hangarshuffle, (post 48)

Are you suggesting the guys and gals on HMSB are not up to this, or up for this? This is the Navy. Long cruises are part of their lives, humanitarian assistance is their pride and joy, doing tough stuff is a part of their heritage.

Or are you now going to tell me that all that stuff wasn't true? I'd rather believe the mental model of the Navy that serving members have placed in my head over the decades.

[LT Selfridge]

I once wondered why Russia and China had not vetoed the US/NATO UN Security Council Resolutions for the Iraq and Libya interventions but it has become increasingly clear.

'They that sow the wind ....' and all that.

[Chugalug2]

CM:-
As the survivors are nationals of the country to which they are being returned, they probably don't need to be handed over to anyone, just the taxi driver for the ride home. The "survivors" have already been fleeced of everything that they possess by inhabitants of the country to which you propose they be returned. For most the only things that they have left are their very lives. If they cannot be realised in fiscal form in the form of ransom then those 'assets' may well be written down to zero in the perfunctory manner prevalent there.

No, they are by no means all Libyan nationals, as you well know. I find your facile contribution to this enormous challenge grating, but then of course grammatical comment trumps that in your book.
To whom. Sorry, that just grates.

[Hangarshuffle]

I still think the lads are up to it, but I still think things would work a lot better for all if the Navy now adopted more intelligent use of its diminishing people.
In the offshore OG world as you know UK rules limit the amount of time you can spend on a rig (think its 3 weeks or 21 days in the UK shelf, STBC). Go further away and many or most multinationals put limits on, things like 60 or 90 days maximum deployed working hard on a 12 hour cycle.
Think the Navy should adopt this rule, especially here.
This looks a very hard slog for the ratings onboard. Its now approaching high Summer, we all know what that's like in the North Africa region. Risk of disease is very evident. I would wager emotional fatigue will be a factor.
What will really sap at people is the knowledge that they are a 1 trick pony. There is no relief ship for Bulwark, she is all the nation now has.


I listened at length to the lads who returned from HMS Ocean after the Libyan attacks. They were there offshore for months because they also had no replacement. They and the ship were in literal bits at the end of that particular long futile slog.


Its just no way to run things in the modern era. We have airheads, cheap rentable airliners and literally thousands of ratings onshore who could be trained and rotated through if required. (There is little else on operationally as important as this little hot coal at the moment).
Civilians do this within the Oil and Gas and it works a lot better, their retention of people is higher. Most importantly the RN's own peoples quality of life would be far better and that's what counts.

[Hangarshuffle]

'Reducing our Armed Forces to a ferry service for migrants is madness' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/debate/article-3116272/MAX-HASTINGS-madness-reducing-Armed-Forces-ferry-service-migrants.html)


Royal Navy catches suspected members of Libyan people smuggling ring | Daily Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-3115873/Eagle-eyed-Royal-Navy-sailors-catch-five-suspected-members-Libyan-people-smuggling-ring-hiding-masses-desperate-migrants-exploit.html)


Some more good pictures from the Daily Sail, offloading the pax, shifty looking coves lurking around. These people are going to cost us all a fortune (that's the immers, not the sailors!).
God Almighty am I glad I am no longer involved in all of this. I say a prayer every day I wake up I am no longer a member of the RN, and am now a free slave.

[Tourist]

Hangarshuffle

It's difficult to know where to start.

Are you really ex RN?

Is there any part of trying to rotate a crew of a warship every 30/60/90 days that is not utterly moronic?

Do you really think that rescue ops in the med is a tricky/tiring evolution?

A warship is not a foxhole. The med is not Iraq or Afghanistan or the Falklands. I think the RM/RN will cope with the stress from under their duvets in their comfy bunks.:rolleyes:

Don't be so wet.

[Courtney Mil]

Chug,

I do get your humanitarian concerns, but do you really think that picking them up and taking them to Europe is the answer? The more that get through, the more will come. Month after month, year after year. Can/should Europe accommodate them all? How many would that eventually be? Millions, potentially.

Treating the symptoms won't cure the disease, as you have (in a different context) stated many times here. If the poor folks trying to escape to Europe started to see their friends returned to Africa instead of sending postcards from Europe saying, "Come on over, everything is great,". Maybe they might be discouraged and start to see the traffickers as the low-life scum they are.

Maybe you don't feel the numbers will soon become overwhelming. I suspect they shall.

[Chugalug2]

CM:-
Treating the symptoms won't cure the disease, as you have (in a different context) stated many times here.and I am unanimous in that!

Seriously, I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and to complete the quote above, you have to correct the cause. In this case, given the myriad regions from which these people originate, that should read causes.

Those who come from that worst of all scenarios, a civil war, should be granted safe haven in my view, both here and in Europe. That has always been UK practice and we should not change. Those who flee persecution by corrupt regimes (of which it seems there is no end) should also be given sanctuary. Those who are economic migrants should be put into refugee camps and offered early return to their own countries ASAP.

All easy to say and damned hard to carry out I admit, but the causes have then to be addressed. The United Nations has totally failed Africa, if not the World as a whole. Somehow it must be made to work, or scrapped entirely in favour of a successor, just as its predecessor was. It would then have to sort out international money laundering, which is the engine that makes large scale fiscal corruption possible. In that regard I suggest it re spots to Switzerland, to cut out the many transatlantic flights to there which would otherwise be required.

There, I've handed myself on a plate. Enjoy!

[Courtney Mil]

I don't think anyone could disagree with with your argument there, Chug. Africa is in crisis, some countries in particular. And those countries have millions of people that are in big trouble and that need help.

The point I've been making is slightly different in that helping thousands of people a week to get to Europe is not the answer. Why? Because more will follow, why wouldn't everyone there in distress want to follow? Certainly the ones arriving now will seek leave for their immediate families to come - so multiply the number arriving by whatever number is appropriate.

A substantial number seem to be saying that their desire is to go to the UK. And here's the rub. How many more millions can the UK support? It's simply not viable. There has to be a better and more permanent way of dealing with this and I can only see that the first steps have to be in Africa, hence my remarks about returning them there. Once there, as you rightly say, there will be a need for support. That will grow, but maybe not as quickly once this easy route into Europe is shut down.

It's not all about the UK. Sweden, Hungary and Austria appear to be popular destinations. Sweden currently has about 8 asylum applications per head of population at the moment. How long can that go on?

Countries of origin appear to be Nigeria, Somalia, Eritrea and Gambia. Not surprising, but there are millions more there to follow. And the rate of influx appears to be accelerating. If they haven't already, the numbers will quickly become unmanageable.

That's my point.

[NutLoose]

Simply return them all, unfortunately until you do that they will still keep on coming, but the trouble is if they destroy there docs you cannot... Plan B would be every country must have some territories that would count if you take them on, we could repopulate South Georgia :hmm:

[Chugalug2]

CM:-
the first steps have to be in Africa, hence my remarks about returning them there.NL:-
Simply return them allAfrica is not a State, nor is it even a "Union", which seemingly our continent purports to be. If these people embarked in Libya and are then intercepted at sea, how do you return them to a country that is in effect in a state of civil war? If you are saying that any state will do in Africa then "colonialist" and "fascist" will be the least of the diatribes leveled at us, not least by the government concerned, unless of course we buy them off in which case yet another galloper is added to the perpetual roundabout...

The immediate solution seems to me is for Libya to change from failed state to functional state(s), with administration(s) that are in actual control. Which brings us to the militant Islamists. They surely are the elephant in this room, and pose a real and present danger (not least in the effects presented by the OP) to us all. I have lambasted the UN with some justification, but I laud NATO which ensured the peace in Europe (and not "Europe" which presented itself the Nobel Peace Prize for that achievement. Laughable!). It is time once again to realise the threat at our door and for NATO to revitalise and reorganise itself to confront it. It could start by trying to cut off the money that funds them. Perhaps it too should move from Brussels to Geneva?

What I don't think we should do is shirk our common humanity and refuse any refuge to any of these people. The numbers per European state are containable at the moment, being small compared to the influx from Eastern Europe for example. I take your point that unchecked it will grow ever more. Hence the need to hold them in camps and allow freedom to work and to travel only to those who we feel are genuinely fleeing terror. Hopefully the word will get back from the others that you end up penniless and possession less, interned on one of jollygreengiant's Greek islands...

[Hangarshuffle]

Tourist, I don't know where to start either. Bearing in mind that the whole international offshore oil and gas industry regularly rotates its entire workforce er, every few weeks...er yes. An FPSO, under long term refit but still operational, with a daily working crew of 600 souls will rotate through entirely over a 30 day period-fact. And that's from South Atlantic offshore Angola. It would relatively easy for the present RN set up on Bulwark to rotate the ships company on a 42 dayer (that's 6 full weeks). And the benefits..do I spell them out again? You will have twice the number of people who experience a live operation (for future ops purposes and training experience value). People are regularly rested and that reduces levels of stress/family breakdowns.. I could go on and on.
On this specific task, offshore Libya, it would be very easy to rotate, using Malta as an airhead. With a civvy charter plane once a week. Bulwark is pretty lean manned anyway and its got what..250 odd onboard. Piece of cake.


As for me, mate my record is second to none. I did numerous long, long deployments all over the world and on very varying tempos, platforms...and I've often thought back how much better they could have done it if they had used a little less....little less balls to be honest.!


Just because we grinned and bared it back then doesn't mean they have to do the same now.
Don't tell me though - you're dead old and dead manly and could do these trips in your sleep! (How many did you do btw)?


Our traditional methods of operating/fighting/working are now losing us wars. We radically need to rethink our ways =others are. The Libyan warlords are playing an absolute blinder against the British at the moment. Think about how we have helped them achieve what they now have and are getting.


p.s. the RN aircrew are being rotated through on Bulwark (please tell me they are), otherwise someone's missing a trick here!


p.p.s. as someone kindly pointed out, subs/bombers use this system in our Andrew and we think the USN.


And also finally...topmast! This was exactly the kind of thing it was for, its it still functioning>?

[FODPlod]

Tourist - I feel your pain. I didn't know the Royal Navy had ready-use tins of worked-up ship and system specific personnel in sufficient numbers with the necessary ranks, SQs (Specialist Qualifications), expertise and liability for sea service available to be swapped around and take over its largest vessels mid-operation either. Apart from the odd bod from the ERP (Emergency Relief Pool) à la Topmast, it couldn't even do this in my time and I know even more billets are gapped these days.

The pool of offshore workers available 'on tap' is relatively inexhaustible by comparison. Subject to contract, they are 'hired and fired' as required.

[Tourist]

FOD

Glad it's not just me!

Hangar

Just to confirm. You are aware that the oil and gas industry are not a military force yes? In fact they have no points of overlap except for generally being surrounded by sea.

The Asda near my house has a shift system too. They are, however, frankly lacking in the ability to provide a range of Naval missions including but not limited to naval gunfire support or humanitarian missions.

ps. The bombers do not rotate crews through. They have two full crews. Both are fully worked up on the vessel. One is on board, one is not.

If you can find a fully worked up, type specific crew which has gone through all the FOST pre deployment training then awesome, but since that does not exist why not take a more mature view of things.

Your record, to judge from the intellectual level of your post, was not spent anywhere above the junior rates messdeck.

[Hangarshuffle]

No mate I fully disagree, after time and observation working within the offshore industry. Our systems work pretty well brilliantly- I'm talking about some highly skilled and able people here, with a similar back to back oppo who are on options of 1 month, some foreign nationals are on 90 days, its pretty variable and it works really well for the lads at the sharp end...keeps their wives happy, kids happy.Looking at the Navy, it needs to modernise itself to get used in the future to full crew changerounds and similar set ups when its on these long never ending drudgery deploys.. Otherwise the exodus of its people will just continue and will degrade much further...people wont wear that kind of life anymore-its a smaller more linked in world-young people know this. We used to do what we did because the people in charge had never done any different, and also due to an insane sort of machismo, and also parsimony of money...trust me Bulwark and all the like will work better on a slow rolling turnaround.


Looking at these new pictures, looks like these African lads will be in Britain long before any of the ratings get home anyway. See linky. Straight out the camp (its not guarded-craftily the eyties know where these lads are really heading and its not a life eating pasta!, Taxi to Rome, pay more cash to a villain and onwards to Calais, then blighty via truck smuggling. New life washing cars and getting girls up the duff.


Mediterranean migrants saved by Royal Navy journey through Europe to Britain | Daily Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-3117496/Next-stop-Britain-Med-migrants-hopped-taxi-Saved-Navy-clothed-fed-Sudanese-men-stroll-camp-leg-journey-here.html)
Decision time again then for the politicians, and our hundreds of Admirals. They can continue picking up people and saving them, ferrying them to Italy and thus adding to the migrant problem in Europe and here.
They can cancel the operation and return home.
If they could gather together a coalition of the willing, use other European Navies and Coastguards to actually guard the med and return immediately any Africans back to Africa...
They thus need a safe port/compund in Libya. They need the Libyan Warlords on side (some of them).
Could trigger more fighting in turf wars.
My guess-too politically hot all around so the pick and drop off in Italy will occur indefinitely until Italy says no its had enough..

[Tourist]

Hangar

Your view is frankly infantile. To compare to offshore working shows a staggering lack of big picture awareness. I'm guessing I was right about the junior rates mess?

To operate effectively, a crew needs a workup. This would be impossible to achieve under your suggested system.

When a ship goes to FOST it improves until it is ready. It takes a lot of time and effort for the team to work together.

What do you think the point of all the enormously expensive JMC/Joint Warrior/Thursday war type exercises actually is!?!

As a complete aside, do you honestly think that this is a hard work deployment? You don't think they would prefer this to Joint Warrior or a South Atlantic deployment?

[Martin the Martian]

Considering that they are pulling ever increasing numbers of people out of unseaworthy boats, looking after their needs and transporting them to Sicily on a daily basis, and are doing this with no relief in sight, I would imagine they would happily do Joint Warrior or the South Atlantic as an alternative. At least there is an end date for those events, and it does actually involve doing the job for which they joined up for. Not sailing on the biggest lifeboat in the world. Perhaps we could paint Bulwark orange and blue the next time she stops off in Sicily to unload?

[FODPlod]

...At least there is an end date for those events, and it does actually involve doing the job for which they joined up for...

Martin,

I joined up to say "Left hand down a bit", visit exotic places and meet lots of pretty girls.

I ended up doing all of this but I also helped fend off aircraft and missiles, rendered safe bombs, mines and other ordnance, changed propellers and sonar domes underwater, boarded fishing vessels, manned a Green Goddess, operated ROVs, helped evacuate refugees, fished bodies out of the water, helped put down an insurrection, chased pirates and smugglers, fought fires and staunched floods at sea, salvaged sinking ships, helped rebuild and decorate schools and hospitals after hurricane and volcanic eruption, etc. and spent eight or nine months at a time in defence watches (six hours on/six hours off as well as my daywork) with only short breaks in the routine while often having my homecoming delayed for pressing operational reasons. Towards the end of my time, I found myself driving various desks until the wee hours many miles from home. I wasn't particularly exceptional among my peers in this and wouldn't have changed any of it for the world.

What did you join up for?

[Martin the Martian]

Anyone in any job, civilian or military, will know that little sentence on the contract of employment 'and other duties as required'. It does appear to affect military personnel more, for sure, but I still say that Bulwark's crew are doing an unpleasant task for day after day with no relief in sight, with the knowledge that what they are doing will have absolutely no effect on the causes, and will not stop it happening. If anything it will only encourage it to happen more and more. It is June and I expect they'll still be doing it in September while the politicians continue to shake their heads sadly and wring their hands while the traffickers get richer and richer.

If that's acceptable, please say so.

[Chugalug2]

M&M:-
Anyone in any job, civilian or military, will know that little sentence on the contract of employment 'and other duties as required'. Well, this anyone didn't know that. YLSNED, as Danny would say. Things have obviously moved on since my day. Way back when there was no contract of employment at all in the military, merely an attestation where you promised inter alia to carry out the (legal!) orders of your superiors. If that is still the case onboard HMS Bulwark then it is up to those very same superiors to ensure the maintenance of good order and discipline. I see no reason why they should not. Do you? It used to be called leadership, don't know what it's called now though.

[KenV]

p.p.s. as someone kindly pointed out, subs/bombers use this system in our Andrew and we think the USN.

USN ballistic missile subs have two crews.

The USN's new Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) will probably be manned on a 3-2-1 ratio. 3 crews, for 2 ships, with 1 ship deployed at sea.

[FODPlod]

Anyone in any job, civilian or military, will know that little sentence on the contract of employment 'and other duties as required'. It does appear to affect military personnel more, for sure...

Yes, it does rather, doesn't it? Have you read the bit about Offences against Military Law in the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offences_against_military_law_in_the_United_Kingdom) in Chapter 52 of the Armed Forces Act (2006) (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/52/pdfs/ukpga_20060052_en.pdf)?

For example:


Life imprisonment for mutiny (e.g. disobeying a lawful order), failing to suppress mutiny, misconduct on operations, obstructing operations, hazarding a ship, etc.
Ten years imprisonment for misconduct (i.e. using violence against a superior officer or threatening behaviour or communication to a superior officer), disobeying lawful commands, etc.
Two years imprisonment for misconduct (i.e. disrespectful behaviour or communication to a superior officer), absence without leave, contravening standing orders, failing to attend for, or perform, duty, malingering, etc.

Perhaps you might consider starting a trade union for military personnel to tie things in more with civilian life?

I was only jesting but having to do shi**y jobs or deploy for long periods without any certainty of a return date is known as 'Life in a Blue Suit' in the Royal Navy or, in more general parlance, taking the rough with the smooth. I didn't join up to march across Dartmoor or chip old paint off the foc'sle but I did it. By the same token, when I was told to fly ahead in the ship's helo on different occasions to plan visits to Guadeloupe and Curaçao in the West Indies because I spoke some schoolboy French, I did that too although, strictly speaking, it wasn't in my Terms & Conditions of Service. As it happened, the respective local consuls had organised the visits perfectly well on their own so I spent each of the preceding weeks in a Club Mediterranean.

USN ballistic missile subs have two crews.

The USN's new Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) will probably be manned on a 3-2-1 ratio. 3 crews, for 2 ships, with 1 ship deployed at sea.

RN SSBNs ('Boomers' in the USN, 'Bombers' in the RN) certainly have two crews but they are a very special case.

The US Navy has big bucks and is known for its manpower profligacy compared to the RN; just look at the respective complements of any similar vessels. Personnel constitute the greatest through-life cost of any ship and the RN would never countenance having three crews in order to maintain one at sea. With only 23,000 regulars and 250 full time reservists in the RN (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/426881/20150507_RN_RM_Service_Quarterly_Pocket_Brief_April_2015.pdf ) vice 326,000 regulars and 107,000 reserves in the USN (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/nav_legacy.asp?id=146), it is much too small for a start.

[FODPlod]

UNo mate I fully disagree, after time and observation working within the offshore industry. Our systems work pretty well brilliantly- I'm talking about some highly skilled and able people here, with a similar back to back oppo who are on options of 1 month, some foreign nationals are on 90 days, its pretty variable and it works really well for the lads at the sharp end...

"Back to back"? I'm intrigued.Are you suggesting that each operational RN ship should have a 'spare crew', virtually doubling the size of the seagoing element. Would the 'spare crew' be twiddling its thumbs in barracks for 50% of the time, would it be paid to stay at home or would it be free to seek other interim employment as in the offshore industry? Would you pay it at all while not required or would you be happy doubling a ship's 'payroll' and providing all the other benefits involved? [cost]

Would each serviceman/woman, of whatever rank and worked-up ship/system-specific skill and experience, serve on a one month or 90 day option whereby you never know whether they are going to reappear when required? Do you seriously consider that disruptive change-overs of such personnel every six weeks over a nine month deployment is a viable option? [operational capability]

Would the relief crews or even individual personnel overlap with the old crews/personnel during their disruptive change-over or just be left to get on with it? If there is a proper overlap, where would the relief crews/personnel be fed and accommodated? [operational capability and cost]

Would a ship and its new crew conduct its costly and time-consuming FOST work-up in-theatre? If yes, where would the extra training staff come from, how would they travel and where would they be accommodated? [operational capability and cost]

If a ship has to return to the UK for its turnover/work-up mid-deployment, doesn't that rather defeat the object? [operational capability and cost]

Bearing in mind that, unlike in the offshore industry, there is no great pool of suitable personnel out there on which to draw, how would you maintain people's currency, sustain a consistent individual and unit training pipeline and manage people's career development, rank structure and promotion with appropriate higher training and qualifications? [operational capability and cost]

Would people have to pay for their expensive training and certification like in the offshore industry or are you suggesting the RN should provide it free? If the latter, what sort of return of service would you advise? [cost]
You're the one proposing such changes. I'm just curious how you would implement them without any damaging effect on operational capability or exorbitant extra cost.

[Hangarshuffle]

Well all those points you mention actually seem to work outside the RN y'know? People seem happier outside working like that. If Bulwark operates as it does, what's wrong with the Albion's ghost crew coming into the mix? i.e. operate two crews on the one platform?
Then you get two crews gaining a wide range of experience>useful if Albion ever has to be activated?
Or is the RN so run down now (which we all know it is really), this could not even be managed?
Like I said< at the top, I worry for the lads welfare, morale, wellbeing-even now. This whole op will continue until the politicians grow tired of it. Bulwark will be stuck trailing around now until when exactly?
HMS Ocean was in a terrible state when it completed its tasking offshore Libya. People were reduced to sleeping on the flight deck, AC and machinery had broken down..pretty miserable towards the end apparently...the RN in the 21st century. Do the people who are doing the donkey work deserve such derision?
I never forget the people who prop the RN up. They deserve the breaks, sometimes.
Civvy street offshore oil and gas industry is tough at times, be in no doubt, but we are so better treat and managed and paid in these matters...perhaps time now for the RN to really have a look at this, not just people to deride the simple suggestion? HS.

[FODPlod]

...what's wrong with the Albion's ghost crew coming into the mix? i.e. operate two crews on the one platform...

Maintain two crews to keep one ship at sea, virtually doubling the payroll? Much too costly.

I imagine HMS Albion's "ghost crew" comprises a couple of dozen ship-keepers mostly unsuited for sea service or any other 'active duty'. Even fewer of them, if any, would fulfil the necessary criteria (rank, specialisation, currency, medical fitness, liability for sea service, etc.) required to occupy a complement billet in the seagoing Bulwark. Moreover, even if the additional manpower were available, receiving an entire ship's company on board a 'dead ship' in return, let alone trying to provide it with gainful employment, would likely prove embarrassing. Finally, who would look after Albion during the disruptive six-weekly handover periods you suggest implementing on board the operational ship?

If Albion replaces Bulwark as fleet flagship in 2017 as planned, her ship's company will be built up and trained over a lengthy period as qualified personnel become available from various sources including Bulwark. The manpower does not exist to sustain both ships at sea simultaneously as operational units.

What will it take to convince you that there is a vast and irreconcilable difference between a publicly funded military service like the 100% core workforce Royal Navy operating at or below its critical mass and the "hire 'em, fire 'em" offshore industry with a highly paid core workforce of less than 40% and a relatively inexhaustible pool of temporary manpower from which to draw?

[KenV]

The US Navy has big bucks and is known for its manpower profligacy compared to the RN; just look at the respective complements of any similar vessels. Personnel constitute the greatest through-life cost of any ship and the RN would never countenance having three crews in order to maintain one at sea. With only 23,000 regulars and 250 full time reservists in the RN (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/426881/20150507_RN_RM_Service_Quarterly_Pocket_Brief_April_2015.pdf ) vice 326,000 regulars and 107,000 reserves in the USN (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/nav_legacy.asp?id=146), it is much too small for a start.

The reason for the multiple crews for the LCSs is they are very lightly manned. When at sea there is so much work that the crew can't take the work load very long. So every two ships has three crews. The work load is high in port also, but in port the ship's crew is augmented by shore personnel, some USN, some civilian contractor. And the LCSs have the highest sea time to port time ratio of any USN vessel. They are at sea a LOT.

[Hangarshuffle]

Seems inevitable. With hindsight Britain and its limited resource tried to do the right thing in rescuing the people, but simply became a conveyor.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/16/uk-set-to-withdraw-hms-bulwark-migrant-rescue-missions-Mediterranean

[Courtney Mil]

No link there, HS.

[dagenham]

we seem to be confusing cost with efficiency

If double crewing means the asset can be on patrol nearly double the time it might actually be efficient as it replaces purchasing and maintain two of " insert craft / vessel / item of choice "

I guess thats the reason the boomers operate this way - if the vessel can be turned around faster than crew rest or morale can be turned around, it makes financial sense to do double up and get it back to sea.

I will not interject on the issue of north sea as I have no experience, but I will say I mentioned this to Mrs Dagenham about having two wives, a younger fitter one to be trained up for when the older one is tired and it didn't go down to well. Apparently, my rating for single wife duties is on suspension......:ugh:

[Courtney Mil]

From the reports in the press recently, it looks like the crew needs to spend more time maintaining their vessel and less time being worried about morale and being deployed, right, Hangarshuffle? I hope the guys from Babcock don't get too upset about having to go and sort out the RN's mess.

[Not_a_boffin]

CM

I assume you're referring to this.

Migrant crisis: Navy rescue ship HMS Bulwark breaks down due to too many migrants | UK | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/584300/Migrant-crisis-Navy-rescue-ship-HMS-Bulwark-breaks-down-migrants)

Aside from the fact that "stuff" breaks down from time to time, it may just be that supporting hundreds/thousands of people who are basically being transported on the upper deck and hence likely to need more frequent supplies of drinking water has put the margin beyond what one would normally tolerate - particularly towards the end of a deployment.

Hardly the RNs "mess".

[Courtney Mil]

NaB,

I was more worried about the poor crew that needs to go home.

[FODPlod]

...If double crewing means the asset can be on patrol nearly double the time it might actually be efficient as it replaces purchasing and maintain two of " insert craft / vessel / item of choice "...

RN surface ships are already being operated at a knackering pace with deployments of up to nine months and SSNs deploying for up to ten months. Even if it were feasible to operate them for twice the duration with double the payroll, what money would be saved if they wore out in half the time and required replacing? Also, what about their need for the planned and unplanned maintenance that is required as much as crew downtime? Despite what some people may think, it's not as though ships are parked in a hangar or garage each night with their hundreds of complex and often temperamental mechanical, electrical and electronic systems and sub-systems switched off.

The RN website contains an interesting insight into current global commitments here: Operations (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations). The bit covering ships alongside (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/uk-home-waters/alongside) contains these sage words:


Alongside - Ships

Ships and submarines are complex pieces of kit, packed with hard-working sailors - all of whom need some time alongside once in a while. Hectic as a ship or boat's programme can be, there will always be some time alongside at her home port of Faslane, Devonport or Portsmouth, or away in the hands of the engineers for refit and maintenance.

Ships and submarines are complex bits of engineering, and just as your car needs a regular service, the process of upkeep and maintenance for Naval vessels is ongoing and demanding. And people need upkeep too; so when a ship is alongside in her home port, the ship's company will be not just looking after their ship, but committed to training and other tasks to keep life on board running smoothly.

From the reports in the press recently, it looks like the crew needs to spend more time maintaining their vessel and less time being worried about morale and being deployed, right, Hangarshuffle? I hope the guys from Babcock don't get too upset about having to go and sort out the RN's mess.

Rather a snide comment about the RN, even for you. With the myriad systems on board, evaps are probably among the most prone to break down, particularly if operated at unusually high capacity for extended periods.

I was more worried about the poor crew that needs to go home.

Your concern is laudable but I believe they only deployed two months ago (sometime in April?). Although they would have had some preparatory seatime in home waters before that, it still leaves another six or seven months of normal RN deployment to go, if necessary, although I'm sure every effort would be made to give them a mid-deployment break and bring the ship home in time for Christmas.

[Courtney Mil]

It's OK, FOD. My concern was raised by a former RN chap that led me to believe that the crew would all be jolly upset by now. Perhaps, in hindsight, I shouldn't be so easily convinced of servicemen's fragility.;)

Edit: Which Christmas?

[Hangarshuffle]

Hope your not having a pop at me there either. I still cannot fathom out the hostility I get for having the temerity to suggest in this day and age that the RN could not look at carrying out a rolling turnaround of a lean manned ship over an extended or even open ended deploy. It makes perfect sense.
Works well in civvy street and it would work here if Command had the will and budget. Times and people and their demands are changing. RN are all volunteers you know, and they can sharp leave-Govtmental type people be well advised to remember it.




*My training and experience in the RN was second to none, was a transferable asset and since I left, well, very well paid work was pretty easy to secure..and will be for most of Bulwarks crew if they ever slightly grew tired of the game.




Back on the thread, spare a thought and a prayer even if you can gather it in your iron hearts, for the ones who will now be left bobbing out at sea to die a horrible death. Which is surely now what will occur to many hundreds if not thousands.

[downsizer]

There are some quality wind up merchants in the mil history forums these days. Far better ones at that, than actually inhabit actual crewrooms these days.

[Hangarshuffle]

The Monaco 2050 superyacht private-jet set - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/75275/the-monaco-2050-superyacht-private-jet-set.html)
Couldn't get the link up from the Guardian, sorry about that. The Telegraph has nothing in its online pages about Bulwark et al; the Govt. must have told them to pull it, as its a pretty bad read I suppose.
But they do have in adverts for super yachts featuring not helicopters but vertical take off jet planes to transport the super-rich about. Which sort of makes me think about where the western world is and its priorities at the moment.
In other newspapers, the plight of North Africa in general is a sobering read.
http://www.libyaherald.com/#axzz3dFt4CYtn
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?rubrique1


Not a single column I can see here about the situation facing boat people-so if you are counting on being put off travelling to the coast and heading to Europe, I guess there is nothing to dissuade you. Unless you access the western papers (but not todays Telegraph).

[Pontius Navigator]

HS, I think I agree with you. What is wrong with a continuous personnel throughout? RAF sqns work that way.

Using the fully constituted model you might have one sqn, fully worked up, combat ready and at the top of its game about a year after it starts. After another year it will need replacing as it is getting into a rut and is tired. No problem, its replacement has just completed its work up and it full efficiency. A third sqn, or retreads from the first is starting to work up. Basically, at some point you have a sqn at 100% readiness but then it starts to lose its edge.

In contrast a sqn with 10 crews, with a new crew joining every 3 months, and taking 6 months to work up, is at a maximum of 80%. Realistically a crew becoming tourex mayay be less effective so combat efficiency may be nearer 70%.

Which model is better ? One worked up or one working up so efficiency varying from 50% upwards or continuous rotation and efficiency around 70%.

[Courtney Mil]

Pontious,

Just run past me which squadrons work like that?

[Pontius Navigator]

CM, every one I ever served on.

In maritime individuals were dripfed into existing crews. I suspect I didn't make my point clear enough. Any sqn or crew with new personnel is, by definition, less than 100% ready.

A sqn, deployed and worked up with no rotation of crews or personnel will near 100%.

The Soviet model was a 3 sqn regt with one sqn fully experienced and the third 27th training crews.

Ps, the ones I was on were the continuous rotation of crews model.

[Courtney Mil]

OK. Were any of those crews or squadrons down-declared? Were they not combat ready?

[Pontius Navigator]

CM, no, the point is that a sqn with one crew working up to LCR, a senior crew winding down, and the other crews with graduated proficiency from New to old is not at 100%. The sqn may be declared but by definition has to be less capable than one at steady state, all crews trained and worked up. A case on point were the composite sqns formed pre-GW 1.

Desirable as that may be that 100% sqn is offset by the training sqn in work up.
In contrast the sqn with continually rotation of crews, slightly less capable, is more efficient as a greater proportion are always operational.

[downsizer]

Pontious,

Just run past me which squadrons work like that?

It's the model TGRF have been using for the last few years at least. Sqn on Herrick, Sqn on point, Sqn working up, and so on.... (Unless I've misunderstood what PN was saying).

[Pontius Navigator]

Downsized, correct, that is the 100% model with, in your case, 75% at various readiness states giving a total force % readiness of 25% albeit it is capable of reaching 75% fairly quickly.

The continuous replenishment model runs at about 70% and is also capable of being ramped up.

Which model is more combat effective? Which is more economical in costs and manpower?

Possibly your Herrick cycle, putting full trained units into the field is better for that operation and the UK base, continuous replenishment model, is better for a long term cold war readiness requirement.

[Courtney Mil]

OK, I get the point about a Sqn not being manned 100% by fully worked up or even fully CR crews. And that has always been the way. It was suggested (actually had been many times) that OCUs could do the full Sqn CR work up. Sometimes we did graduate crews LCR, but that wasn't the norm.

But there is still a big difference between having two complete sets of crews, or two complete crews and having 75% CR, fully worked up.

I think I may have misinterpreted an earlier post. My apologies if that's the case.

[Hangarshuffle]

HMS Enterprise replaced HMS Bulwark and the rescue mission appears no longer thus.
UK 'pulling back' from migrant rescue with HMS Enterprise deployment | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/23/uk-pulling-back-from-migrant-rescue-with-hms-enterprise-deployment)


Now a more aggressive military mission to "go after the human smugglers and traffickers" according to the Grad, which to be fair has followed the story closely. "Identify, capture and dispose of " the baddies boats.
Personally, I would have picked a different vessel to do that task that the E.


If they are taking on presumably armed gangs, who are really coining it, and splitting the villains from their little earner then the RN may be in for a real shooting match, exchanges of gunfire - I would not be surprised. So why send a survey ship?
I would have thought another type would have really been more appropriate. Type 45 is very high tech but has biggish flight deck and hangar, two fast boats either side, room for a suitable RM detachment>? Weapons even..people have said for a long time the RN needs more appropriate vessels for this sort of operation.
The air asset remains, a Merlin. Does Enterprise have a hangar and facilities for that?
I'm confused by it all, the drift, the actual plan here. I understand the political about turn - the RNs role had become embarrassing.
GCHQ and the UKs National Crime Agency are also involved with a cell established in Italy to target the bad uns.
But anyway, whatever it is good luck with this RN.

[Danny42C]

Hangarshuffle,

Your: "Identify, capture and dispose of " the baddies boats.
Personally, I would have picked a different vessel to do that task that the E.

My Post #12 on the "A-10s to be sold on" Thread suggests a way of dealing with the boats (the last lot of Bulwark's passengers seem to be having a field day at Calais now! - the next lot having already "booked their passage" on the E ?)

D.

[Courtney Mil]

Sadly, it's no longer a matter of which ship fits the mission. It's what ship have we got available. Given that this is, effectively, a security mission with a risk of having to bag some, er, bad guys, HMSE will do just fine. With the right stuff on board.

[andyy]

The RN have used "5th Watch manning" for its fishery protection ships in the past. I'm not sure whether they still do, or whether it has ever been trialled on FF/DD ships but I doubt it due to the additional complexity and maintenance requirements of th FF/DD.

Like its name suggests, each ship had a Crew of 5 watches - 4 were at sea with the 5th Watch on leave or on courses etc. one Watch rotated through every X weeks. Not sure how frequently.

I suggest that this works ok in a Patrol vessel in home waters but probably not in a more complex and lean manned Warship on a long deployment, where you have to have the full range of worked up ship fighting/ operating/ maintenance skills at all times to cope with any change in circumstance and tasking.

[Rosevidney1]

(Plagiarised from another website)


A strike and blockade at Calais caused chaos and lengthy backlogs.
It was so bad that travellers were advised to check before they left Africa.

[Junglydaz]

Quite right, boffin. It would appear that equipment didn't break down when CM was serving.......:ugh:

[Hangarshuffle]

Tunisia attack: deadly shooting in front of tourist beach hotel in Sousse - latest - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/tunisia/11701043/Tunisia-attack-deadly-shooting-in-front-of-tourist-beach-hotel-live.html)


Not really on Libyas coastline, but this attack doesn't surprise me=its been on the cards for years. They'll be doing this along Europes borders soon in Commando type raids-can see it coming a mile off.
We cant do anything, the political bravery isn't on display on our side anymore.
Maybe they will sack the refugee/baddie patrols now?
Think I was on this very beach in 1994 on holiday, the thought of this happening then didn't even compute in my small brain.

[NutLoose]

You will never win while you play to a different rule set, I keep saying until you ship them back and keep doing it they will continue coming. All this crap about we need to aid the countries they come from will simply enrichen the lives of a few corrupt officials.

I feel for the peace loving Tunisians who go about their business catering to the Tourist trade who have probably just seen their industry wiped out, thoughts with those involved...


Btw having watched the sh*te happening at Calais I still cannot understand why artic trailers are not locked, and as for the fence climbers they should have three Fences built with the inner one a electrified.

[Danny42C]

Nutty, it doesn't sound as if all the Tunisians are as peaceful as all that !

Danny.

[Hangarshuffle]

Yes my thoughts with those involved with this.

[Martin the Martian]

Interesting last night watching some of the footage showing a meeting of tourists and holiday reps in which some of the tourists were kicking up that the company was not acting quickly enough to fly them home.

Counterpoint that with an interview on the BBC this morning with another tourist present at one of these meetings who pointed out to those with similar gripes that the reps were actually at the hotel next door supporting those who had just had their families murdered, which perhaps was a little more important.

[Hangarshuffle]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/27/hms-bulwark-replacement-has-yet-to-rescue-any-migrants-in-Mediterranean


Interesting end to all of this. Bulwark picked up 4747 people on its operations. And whatever your views on that one has to say well done them for doing their part as ordered.
HMS Enterprise has so far picked up zero people. Despite the leaders of the UK trying to reassure the House of Commons that humanitarian support would continue.
Interesting how the Govt will react to news, veer policy accordingly and fib when it suits them.
Also its very obvious how we need ( and presently totally lack) a good firm opposition in the HoC to hold ministers accountable to how the UK Armed Forces are used. And boy the Navy were "used" here.

[Biggus]

Hanagar,

The link doesn't work - at least not for me...

[Courtney Mil]

Interesting end to all of this.

You really think this is the end to anything?

Apart from that, the guys on the boats there are doing as they are told. Who gives a hoot which boat pocked more or less than any other boat? Are they helping or just adding to the problem?

Biggus, no the link doesn't work, you are right.