Airbus: Flying an ILS not in the database

[Airmann]

New airbus pilot here, and new to FMS operated aircraft. For landing we put a hell of a lot of info into the box for an approach, QNH, temp, winds, minima, G/A alts, not to mention properly sequencing to the correct airfield and approach.

Now suppose we arrive at an airfield for whatever reason and are forced into landing and it is not in the database and there is not enough time or info to build it using Pilot RWY. What do we do? how would the aircraft behave? I know that we can simply insert an ILS frequency and course into the RAD NAV page manually and work out approach speeds based on our current weight, but what about approach mode, what if the FMS has another airfield programmed in the box. Would the aircraft detect that we are not at the right airport? Would we have to switch off the GPWS warnings? Lots to consider, is there a procedure anywhere for this? Thanks

[ReverseFlight]

Program in secondary flight plan, then activate secondary.

[ShotOne]

Programme what in the secondary flight plan?

[JABBARA]

I understand you are asking a complex combination:
You are landing an airport not in database + You did not create the runway where you plan to land + Still initially planned runway/airport remains in MCDU Flight plan ?

But still no problem:
If you have hard tuned ILS FREQ and Course (as overwriting the previous one), still you can fly ILS perfectly, however in scratch pad you will get an amber message similar to ILS TUNED AND RUNWAY MISMATCH. Besides, LAND mode will not appear and A/P will disconnect around 400 RA to prevent AUTOLAND because computer cannot compare runway direction and ILS course, for ALIGNMENT mode engagement for AUTOLAND (transparent to pilot).

EGPWS has a different database, if the airport where you are landing is not in its database you will definitely get warning. If it is in its database that I am not sure.

[Airmann]

Ok but what about approach speed VAPP? What will happen when you arm approach mode given that you cannot fill out the approach PERF page as it is assuming that you are landing on a RWY you've selected in the FMS.

And what about GS mini. Is it enough that you enter ILS course in RAD NAV for it to work or must you have entered the data in the approach perf page?

[JABBARA]

The parameters what you have entered to PERF APP page, except minima, does not effect ILS approach itself. If MCDU landing airport elev is 1000 and , if you re now landing SL, of course you cannot enter MDA as 200, it will not be allowed. But vice versa no problem again.

Once you activate the approach, you do not need the make any weight calculation adjustments on MCDU because then FM comp will consider real time weight for Vls calculation. For PFD Vls, even no need to activate the approach because FE comp always calculate and display real time Vls (regardless of anything).

Even if you enter correct wind for now, to Perf page, GS mini function may not be working properly if direction of landing runway now and planned runway is quite different AND if the entered wind is strong enough so that 1/3 of HW component (as compared to landing runway now) > than 5 K.

For some hints, I recommend you to refer FCOM PRO-ABN Immediate VMC landing Diagram, you can find some details as I have tried above

If you rush everything and forgot a lot (including PERF P and activating App etc), fly final approach at a speed around Vls +5 at PFD ( with selected speed ) for Landing Conf.

Regards

[latetonite]

Do NOT know the specifics of your Airbus, but an Ils approach needs a frequency, a course, and minimums from your Jeppesen.
You can couple this to an A/P and A/T, just need a speed reference, probably in your QRH or equivalent.

[Denti]

Indeed, the QRH has a table that shows Vref speeds, and of course if one uses the airbus EFB tool the landing performance calculation shows the Vapp too.

[tubby linton]

Manually tune the ILS freq and set a front course on the RADnav page
-Fly Vls for the landing config plus approach correction in selected speed.
-DA bug can be set on standby altimeter or ISIS
-Use LOC mode plus FPA for guidance
-If the runway or airfield are not in the database you will have to set the landing elevation for cabin pressure manually

[sonicbum]

You will definitely need to disable the EPGWS (push TERRAIN P/B) as most likely the airport is not in the EGPWS database. But another question is : we are still going to get the basic mode 4 "too low terrain" as the system thinks we are landing in a field of corn ?
All of the above obviously in a scenario where, as the OP mentioned, no airport has been built at an earlier stage.

[No Fly Zone]

Most seriously, I intend no snarky stuff here.
This and similar issues are not rare with the AB system. Further, it troubles me greatly that highly skilled pilots do not know/are not taught how to turn OFF the AB (crap) and return flying control to THE PILOT, when necessary. AB and operator's training rarely covers more than routine operations between known points and in unusual circumstances one must simply guess - and perhaps pray, because you simply Do Not Know what 'It' will do. Again, with no snark intended, I'd suggest the following:
1. Encourage your operator/employer to buy the other brand.
2. When faced with a challenging situation:
3. When stable (if possible), then Turn OFF the automation.
4. Select the essential NAV functions as if the airplane was 25-40 years old, making the necessary weight, speed, descent and config calculations on your way down - just as as you learned in Piloting 101, then...
5. Land your airplane safely wherever necessary.

With automation OFF, that other brand IS and FLIES LIKE a real airplane. Doing so under AB's logic may (or may not) be possible. Sadly, knowing how to do so (aka: being in absolute control of your your airplane) was not part of your conversion training. Who is in command, you or an AB computer?:ugh::sad:

[Airmann]

OK, thanks for all the responses

Firstly, No Fly Zone, if I did that my airline would fire me. As a dedicated pilot I like nothing more than to do things myself, I don't like handing control over, I'm a control freak, whatever, I think most pilots are, but the airline decides at the end of the day.

To summarize what people have said:

1. Insert ILS freq. plus Course in RAD NAV
2. Activate APRCH Phase, regardless of which Airport + Approach is set in the box, insert the minima in the box
3. As per airbus logic all speeds displayed on PFD are based on real time weights using FAC, so technically one can fly managed speeds and have the aircraft decelerate correctly? Is that the case? Little confused about this, some say that one must decelerate using selected speed, including setting final apprch spead manually?
4. At some stage in the approach RWY/ILS Mismatch warning will appear on MCDU scratch pad.

However, aircraft should intercept ILS as normal and fly all the way down, the questions which still remain are these:

1. JABARRA you said that LAND green will not appear and AP will disconnect at 400ft. I don't really see why. You have a valid ILS beam, all the equipment at the airport is working fine. LAND mode simply means that the FMS is now locked onto the beam and no manipulation of the FCU will disengage it other than a G/A. So why should you not get LAND? And technically why can't one continue for an autoland? I would need to look into the books more closely but speaking off the top of my head; so long as the LOC and GS signals are valid and the RA works whats to stop a Autoland? What more does the aircraft need?
2. Regarding a G/A. Obviously there will be no lateral flight plan so if one was to do a G/A the questions are
a) would G/A mode activate?
b) would the THR RED and ACCEL be what was set is the PERF G/A page for the approach in the box (which isn't the one that is being flown)

Thanks

[tubby linton]

I think that the secret to this is keep it simple and fly it like a Boeing.
Pressing the Appr pb will not work as the guidance doesn't know what approach you want to fly as you have not entered it in the flight plan.
I would fly selected speed as the ground speed mini will not be working correctly due to the incorrect headwind component.. This is why when circling we put the landing runway in the secondary and activate it as you break off the instrument approach.
Go-around will be available and I imagine that the THR Red and Accel (which are modifiable) will be what is in the box.
If it doesn't work select 250kt and pull Open climb and reduce to climb power at the thr red/accel alt

[ShotOne]

"Encourage your employer to buy the other brand" ..Thank you for your help, No fly. There isn't one part of your post that ISN'T "snarky stuff. What a waste of pixels

Tubby, why LOC and FPA. Why wouldn't You get a glide slope ?

[tubby linton]

The Appr button is pressed for two reasons-
The first is to get it to capture the glideslope of an ILS.
The second is for the non- precision approach to get it to descend on the procedure. The only way the kit knows which approach it is flying is through the approach selection in the fmgc.
If you have not selected an approach through the fmgc then it doesn't know what it is meant to do, hence it will not engage . Having tuned an ILS the aircraft will display the LOC and GS normally.
The Loc pb will allow tracking of the localizer and you can select an Fpa to follow the glideslope or use vertical speed..This is only if you want to use an autopilot and some sort of guidance. You could always handfly a raw data ILS . (Heavens forbid!)

[latetonite]

If all fails, fly the loc and GS manual. You are instrument rated, no?

[vilas]

tubby
There seems to be a confusion about APP mode engagement. Even mere tuning of ILS frequency is considered as selection of an ILS approach. So APP mode will engage, in all aspects LAND mode etc., no need to use LOC and TRK/FPA. See below from FCOM:

SELECTION

The ILS approach is selected when the APPR pb of the FCU is pressed and:
‐ An ILS approach or a runway only or no approach is inserted in the Flight Management flight plan (ARRIVAL page), and an ILS frequency is set in on the MCDU, or
‐ Both radio management panels are set to NAV and each one has the ILS frequency and course set in.
Also GS mini has nothing to do with any runway, once you have surface wind in the PERF and approach activated GS mini is active anywhere even on down wind should winds change drastically.

[sonicbum]

Thanks for the clarification vilas.

[vilas]

Airmann
I guess you want to know how to fly an airbus without any knowledge of the aircraft. Yes you can do that by simply tuning ILS frequency and course and fly everything selected HDG select, Speed select, manual thrust and fly raw data ILS, the VLS is V approach without auto thrust. It is as simple as that provided you have the skill. Raw data is easier in Airbus since it holds it's flight path. If you can't do it in the bus you won't be doing it in Boeing either. Approach mode is a flight director mode you need to know how to programme it. Next if you don't have the approach in data base how will it be in the FMGS? I have my doubts if you are type rated.

[vilas]

What is the big deal about Vapp? Landing weight+70 is your VLS. Add 5KTS if using ATHR.

[vilas]

john_smith
I have already answered how to fly airbus like an archaic aircraft. The questions asked do not give the impression that the pilot has gone through type rating because he would go through FCOM first before taking advice from the public.

[tubby linton]

You never stop learning with the airbus.

The Fcom also states-
This pushbutton arms, disarms, engages, or disengages the approach modes:
LOC and G/S modes, if an ILS approach is selected in the active F-PLN.
APP NAV-FINAL modes, if a non precision approach is selected in the active F-PLN.
Dsc22_10-20-40

As to ground speed mini the fcom states
TWR HEADWIND COMPONENT
The TWR HEADWIND COMPONENT is the component of the MAG WIND projected on the runway axis (landing runway entered in the flight plan). It is used to compute VAPP and GS mini.

How does it compute it correctly if there is no runway in the F-PLN? I was taught that this is why we activate the secondary when circling.

[vilas]

Agreed GS mini can be active anywhere provided there is RW in MCDU. About approach is selected means even if ILS frequency and course is tuned is considered selected.

[JABBARA]

Hi Armann
I guess thread is again veering off from its path. I will simply try to answer your questions,

1 There is no FAC in A 330, but there is FE as part of FMGEC, which is akin to functions to FAC.

2. To understand what the LAND is, you should know how the airplane makes AUTOLAND in X wind up to its limit 20Kts.
Answer: Same as I do: "De-crab Technique, if you dare to make Automatic Landing in real x wind around 20K or in SIM, you will see that. Around flare height AP aligns the airplane crab heading with runway direction. You can easily see this through windshield and fell rudder pedal movement (feed back) under your foot. This is called "ALIGN" mode (check DSC). This is an AP mode but is transparent to pilot. What I mean, it engages like other FMA modes but does not display on FMA. To be able to that, AP needs to know runway direction, this is the runway direction in MCDU which is selected for landing. Theoretically this is the same with ILS front course in RAD NAV. Practically, what I had tried in SIM, MCDU runway direction vs. RAD NAV front course may be 2 or 3 degree different to get the LAND mode on FMA. Beyond that angular difference, LAND mode does not engage (see PRO_NOR_SRP), eventually A/P disengages. That is fail passive.

3. Regardless which mode you were before (I mean even you do not Activate App or do not sequence FPLN properly etc), as long as you extend flap out of zero, with TOGA selection , GA mode will engage. GA TRK and pitch up will engage. Obviously there will not be any NAV mode to engage (in the sample you give). If you above the PERF page THR RED ACC/ ACC altitude THR LVR CLB will flash immediately and OPN CLB will engage anyway (provided FCU altitude above airplane altitude)

Not: You may be aware, ILS course concept is completely different than VOR bearing concept. What I mean, if you are flying full raw data, setting correct course to anywhere for any type of airplane has no function other than situational awareness of pilot while he is trying to center the deviation bar. For example if front course of ILS is 360 but 345 is set on MCDU (or somewhere else on other type airplane), as long as airplane is on LOC line through approach, deviation bar still indicates centered. Again I remind this is correct only for raw data flight. However, If any Autoflight mode is engaged ( FD and/or AP) then this course may be important for computer internal calculations like intercepting angle, correction factor etc.

[Uplinker]

No Fly Zone; I'm sorry, but yours was such a :mad: post, why are you so scared of Airbus?

Do you manually change gears in your car with a clutch and stick shift, or do you trust an auto gearbox to do all that and get it right for you 99% of the time?

Also in your car; Do you have a manual choke or do you trust this function to an engine management system? Do you ever use cruise control? Parking sensors?

At home; do you manually tune in your TV to the channel you want each time, and adjust the hue control, or does the computer in your TV do that for you?

etc....

[Gryphon]

APPROACH MODE ACTIVATION (LOC-G/S)

When cleared by ATC and when appropriate:

DEPRESS the APPR pushbutton to arm the APPR mode for the approach entered in the flight plan.

Note: If a NON PRECISION approach is selected in the active flight plan and if the flight crew manually tunes an ILS on the RAD NAV page, the MCDU and the PFD display "CHECK APPR SELECTION". This message is a reminder to the flight crew that, although an ILS is tuned on RAD NAV page, the available approach guidance modes are APP NAV-FINAL when the APPR pushbutton is pressed in on the FCU.


The FCU APPR pushbutton arms or engages LOC and G/S modes, if:

‐ An ILS approach is entered in the flight plan, or
‐ No approach, or only a runway, is entered in the flight plan, and an ILS is manually-tuned on the RAD NAV page, or
‐ Both RMPs are set to NAV, and an ILS is selected

CAUTION

If the pilot decides to fly the ILS approach without revising the arrival of the primary flight plan (a non ILS approach is in the F-PLN), LOC and G/S modes will not be available when he presses the APPR pushbutton. Consequently, he should:
• Manually TUNE in the ILS on the RAD NAV page: CHECK that the "CHECK APPR SELECTION" message comes up.
• Press the ILS pushbutton and select ROSE ILS on the EIS CONTROL panel.
• Use HDG, V/S or TRK, FPA modes to fly the ILS.


:ok:

[tubby linton]

That is an interesting point Gryphon.if you fly a non precision approach and then divert to an ILS equipped airport that is not in the database the guidance will not work. I suppose you could just enter no approach or a runway to get it to work but what modes does it revert to below 400ft ra?

[Goldenrivett]

Hi tubby linton,
what modes does it revert to below 400ft ra?
We did this in the sim the other day.
With nothing in the flight plan and selected the ILS frequency & Course in the Rad Nav - all the normal modes were displayed (LAND, FLARE etc)

[vilas]

I said so too. Not difficult to understand. MCDU plays no part in an ILS approach which is done by capturing LOC and GS. But if you select a NPA in MCDU then the system is programmed for it and ignores ILS tuning.

[JABBARA]

Golden Rivett;

At your trial, was the AP engaged?
When I tried in SIM, an ILS & RWY selected on MCDU, only I overwrite the front course around 5 degree different than original. Then the LAND mode did not display and A/P disconnected. I consider it consists with the image below except here it advises to disengage A/P , but when I tried, it automatically disengaged.


http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd499/Jabbara1/20141209%20A330%20FCOM.jpg (http://s1222.photobucket.com/user/Jabbara1/media/20141209%20A330%20FCOM.jpg.html)

[mcdude]

Hard tune ILS frequency and course. That is all that is required.

[Airmann]

It says clearly in the diagram that if the selected course is wrong then LAND mode will not be displayed. So the FMS must be crosschecking pilot entered runway to compare front course inserted in RAD NAV. That's why in JABARRAs case the AP disconnected. Goldenrivett said he had NOTHING at all in the flight plan, that may be the difference, no runway to cross check for the FMS so it continued?

[Goldenrivett]

Hi Airman,
if the selected course is wrong then LAND mode will not be displayed
The diagram posted in #31 suggests you fly a GA if there is no LAND mode displayed by 350 ft. If the ILS course is incorrect then you have to revert CAT II minimums and perform a manual Landing.

Airbus FCOM has the least amount of information of any aircraft I've flown.
The data is locked (ILS Frequency & QDM) at 700 Radio, so why wait until 350 ft to check it?
On a previous AC type which was approved for NO DH & 75m, the ILS Course was changed by rotating the Omni Bearing Selector (OBS). It was possible to change it accidentally (HDG knob near by), so the very last chance we had to ensure it was set correctly was by 350 ft - else we reverted CAT II minimums for Manual Landing. 350 ft was chosen because that's when the "Align" software calculated the heading change for the AutoLand touch down.

In post #29, we re-positioned the sim from the ground somewhere to finals ILS somewhere else. No Flight Plan, Tuned ILS Frequency & QDM on Rad Nav page, Armed the Approach and flew the ILS manually for a Crosswind Landing. All the normal Auto Land modes appeared. I'll try with the AP in next time - and I'm confident it will remain engaged and Auto Land.

[Uplinker]

Yep, that would be interesting, and would be the same I suppose, if you emergency tuned the ILS and course on the RCP?

Did you get ground speed mini - presumably not if you input no data?

[Goldenrivett]

Hi Uplinker,
Did you get ground speed mini
Not so much as you would notice. (as Nancy Sinatra sang)

I think GS mini needs to know the Runway QDM from the Flight Plan data.
See FCTM explanation.

"GROUND SPEED MINI FUNCTION PRINCIPLE
.... Wind is a key factor in the "ground speed mini function".
TWR WIND
It is the MAG WIND entered in the PERF APPR page. It is the average wind as provided by the ATIS or the tower. Gusts must not be inserted, they are included in the ground speed mini computation.

TWR HEADWIND COMPONENT
The TWR HEADWIND COMPONENT is the component of the MAG WIND projected on the runway axis (landing runway entered in the flight plan). It is used to compute VAPP and GSmini.

CURRENT HEADWIND COMPONENT
The actual wind measured by ADIRS is projected on the aircraft axis to define the CURRENT HEADWIND COMPONENT (instantaneous headwind).
The CURRENT HEADWIND COMPONENT is used to compute the variable speed target during final (IAS target)."

[Uplinker]

Well, the very last line that you quoted there, suggests that you would get GS mini, although it is calling it 'variable speed target'

Just something to bear in mind if I ever need to do this :ok:

[tubby linton]

I cannot see the need to fly GS mini if it is not being computed correctly. A selected speed with a wind correction would work equally as well and is used by thousands of Boeings every day.

[vilas]

GS mini is a function of FMGS so it will need RW to calculate. If PERF page doesn't show RW and wind it will not work. Ground speed mini is a concept to keep constant energy and directional inertia. Airbus does it automatically but since we are discussing flying without any input in MCDU it should be understood that just like everything else it can be used purely manually. Use manual thrust and vary the airspeed target to keep constant ground speed threshold. That's what ATHR does.

[Gerifalte]

Hello all,
I´ve read most of the posts on this thread.
They are all technically correct.
It is an interesting question for a well argumented technical discussion.


The way I see it is that many are relying too much on automation and forget that automation is there to help you reduce your workload. And most of the time it works perfectly as long as you feed it with the correct information.


Don´t forget that the flight laws are the same for every aircraft regardless of its level of automation.


A/P basic modes are HDG/ALT. Those work well, are readily available and override whatever information you put in the box.


Remember revert to your basic fliying skills. If they are well cemented you should have no problem getting rid if automation and fly a modern jetliner like any other general aviation aircraft.

[mickavi]

The FCU APPR pushbutton arms or engages LOC and G/S modes, if:
‐ An ILS approach is entered in the flight plan, or
‐ No approach, or only a runway, is entered in the flight plan, and an ILS is manually-tuned on the RAD NAV page, or
‐ Both RMPs are set to NAV, and an ILS is selected.

PRO- NOR - SRP - 01- 70 P5/12
CAUTION
If the pilot decides to fly the ILS approach without revising the arrival of the primary flight plan (a non ILS approach is in the F-PLN), LOC and G/S modes will not be available when he presses the APPR pushbutton.

Consequently, he should:
• Manually TUNE in the ILS on the RAD NAV page: CHECK that the "CHECK APPR SELECTION" message comes up.
• Press the ILS pushbutton and select ROSE ILS on the EIS CONTROL panel.
• Use HDG, V/S or TRK, FPA modes to fly the ILS

P 10/12 same section

So, when only runway and no approach is selected. Then manually tune ils, course, arm approach and go.
But if another approach is already in, then will have to fly hdg, vs/trk fpa.
This explains.