EK - Variation 1!

[170to5]

From the week's safety roundup...Variation 1 will be reintroduced in May rosters for ops flex.

How can it simply be reintroduced (And yes, I know how, it's a rhetorical question!)?!

This place is, as our esteemed leadership would be delighted to hear, unbelievable!!!

[SOPS]

Wheels, off, falling?

[Mach_Krit]

What gets me is that some flights are planned to the max FDP, well knowing you will have to go into discretion. As always, max allowed ist the target at EK.

[flareflyer]

I really don't understand this problem of discretion.
It is Cpt decision, so simply do not go into discretion.......

[Mindififlymanual]

Whats variation 1??

[Trader]

Exactly flare!!!!! For me it is very simple. I can't and will not go into discretion on a night flight/turn, leaving Dubai knowing we can't make it. Pushing 900 hours and max flying/duty each month does not leave enough capacity for the body to be pushing even harder.

Invariably, the worst flights from that point of view are the India turns which also have to fly through Muscat and their congestion. So we get delayed BEFORE even leaving. This is why the unmentionable airline flies those routes as layovers.

But pilots keep doing it and, one day when something happens, they will be held to account for it. To be blunt--quite rightly! You have a choice and if you choose to push the limits then you may well get bitten.

[Plank Cap]

Dear All,

Commander's discretion it is, nobody else's. There can be no assumption that the Commander will grant it.......

Technically of course, one doesn't need discretion to get to Chennai, or wherever 4 hours eastbound in the middle of the night, but one may well need it to get home again. So therefore, before you leave DXB, call up company and confirm that they wish for you to proceed, on the basis that the next call they receive from you may well be after you have run out of hours and lobbed into Muscat on your way home...........

[thatwasclose]

Any time you go into discretion on a variation 1 a report is sent to GCAA. Make sure you fill it out if you do it. Also, technically, if you read the lines, do you not have to decide to go into discretion before you leave?

[glofish]

No, it's as plank says: You have to go from Dubai, as long as there is the chance that with a 5' turnaround you could still remain within the FDR.
Once you realise that you will definitely exceed normal hours, at that time ask them where they want you to land. That'll make them jump and learn.

I repeat an earlier request:
Do not deal with them for going into any discretion or work on a day off by them removing a nasty turn on your roster, please.
It might suit you and definitely them, but you'll just shove down a nasty turn to one of your peers, no lesson learnt for the company and giving them the ticket to continue to abuse us.

[lowstandard]

By going into Commanders Discretion for regular operations, you are exposing your self to great liability. You are effectively saying "I agree to extend the duty period having taken consideration my fitness and the fitness of the crew".

Everyone knows that our hours are now excessive and hazardous, especially the cabin crew's. Increasing exposure to that hazard during regular operations is asking for trouble.

If you or any other crew member have an incident/accident in discretion, fatigue will most likely be the main contributing factor but by going into it you are effectively disregarding fatigue. You are accepting sole blame for anything that happens. Therefore if there is an incident/accident in discretion it will be looked at no differently than intentionally busting minimums or any other violation because you could have prevented an incident/accident by not excercising discretion.

The company loves this because people don't understand the rules and happily sit there at .82 (777) flying into discretion because they are afraid of getting into trouble. The company walks away from any liability free as you signed for it. Protect yourself, your crew and your passengers..Be a COMMANDER!

Go as fast as you can outbound, board extra fuel if required at destination to fly home as fast as you can. Disregard company notam about departing early inbound to DXB, do everything possible to avoid discretion. Variation is already a let by the GCAA to extend the duty day, effectively flying you into discretion without your permission.

Remember this order:
ASS
LICENCE
JOB

PS.. SOPS you better get a load of beer cooled off, I think your going to have lots of company in the next year!

[SOPS]

Roger that Low, larger fridge on order:ok:

[golfyankeesierra]

Not sure what your (UAE)FTL is like, but according EU-FTL discretion is supposed to be used only on outstations.. That would settle it for half the flights.

The exercise of commander’s discretion should be considered exceptional and should be avoided at home base and/or company hubs where standby or reserve crew members should be available
Depending how you view the word "should"

[BYMONEK]

TOGA

I hope you're not taking the classes as you might need to brush up on the rules yourself before you lecture others. The 60 minutes report time before departure is included as part of the FDP calculations!

My beef, however, is the 23 minutes before that when we're required to 'brief' the cabin crew. That's the joke.

golfyankeesierra

Discretion does not differentiate between outstations or home base. EK's FTL's rules and regulations are based on the UK Cap371 with a few amendments specifically incorporated for our operations, including ULR's.

[golfyankeesierra]

More reasons for political pressure to at least level the FTL's in all countries..

Just like the max flight hours, in other threads the max hours in Europe are mentioned to be 1000, but thats in a rolling year.
Max hours in Europe in a Calendar year is 900. I guess you go over that number easily if you make 90+ month after month...

[Emma Royds]

I heard something during a recent CRM session which I took an instant dislike to, given our rosters at present. That is that one of our management pilots has said that we should always be reporting for duty in a condition, where we feel rested enough at the outset to foresee us being able to conduct a full FDP plus discretion.

[falconeasydriver]

Heard a similar thing Emma, 6 months or so ago during CRM, it was pointed out to the higher up, that discretion is just that, discretionary and never planned. It was lost in translation me thinks as all things get solved by VPNC dontcha know...

[flareflyer]

when I check in for duty I know that I might have to go to its limit so i always try to be well rested.
For discretion it is exactly the same........ I am always prepared no to go into it....... As simple as that.........
The problem is that many others don't and the company knows that

[SOPS]

And at the risk of being told to go away again...that is the sort of thing that made me decided enough is enough. EK is just pushing people to push limits at every turn. Led by a overriding factor of fear management, they think they are being very clever.....but something is going to break.

[fatbus]

TOGA find your way to the airplane and be there 1 hr prior, nothing stopping you.

[delorean79]

Secure a job somewhere else beforehand tho

[thatwasclose]

The OMA says.....prior to leaving the point of departure..... is when the captn must decide to extend the duty or not. So in this case you can't just take off hoping to make it and then extend if we can't. We all do it, but technically, have I got it wrong.

[Twiglet1]

Any chance when replying you guys could state you place of birth e.g. UK
Not so that EK can work out who you are, just for the rest of us to see if it's moaning Brits all the time or a cross section of the world :(:(

BYMONEK bet you never experienced this on the Twotter - did you ever fly with Dan Dan the Brymon man (Payne). Bet you turned up early for report then as well.....

NB If you didn't fly for Brymon then yes i'm even more of a complete prat

[donpizmeov]

A fella calls himself bymonek and you think you are a star for guessing where he worked before? Really?

[BYMONEK]

TOGA

Sat in the back of a car reading my paper, that's what I'm doing before report. Unlike 99% of the rest of the World's pilots who are actually driving themselves into work. Parking, getting the bus to crew report....Are you for real?

Twiggy

Yes, you are even more of a complete prat!

[fliion]

Fatty

Do love subtle sarcasm...

Nothing & no one stopping any of us going gate side...

Hmm

f.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Great post TOGA! Some pilots just don't get it. Most of the world's international pilots have a 90 min check in time and guess what, that is when they come on duty even if they have to drive themselves to work. Plus they get 30 mins after the flight.
Recently before a flight I dropped off my laundry, went downstairs to pick up some mail and happened to run into a friend who was leaving the company. Before I knew anything my phone was ringing and the FDM was asking where I was. I told him I was downstairs. Now if it was the Turkish German FDM on duty the phone call probably wouldn't have been placed but the newest FDM (guess where he comes from) said in a raising voice the FAs need to briefed and the FO is wondering where I am. I said relax and then paused, I don't come on duty for another 20 mins. That rocked his world. He didn't know what to say. I said tell the crew I will see them in 10 mins. We still left 3 mins early.
Under the current company induced fatiguing conditions any pilot would be a fool to go into HIS discretion period. What do have to gain?
15 weeks profit share coming May 7.

[170to5]

AC

Now I KNOW you're taking the p**s!

[Alconguin Crusader]

Taking the piss in regards to which statement?
The 90 min check in allowance?
The 30 min check out allowance?
Running my errands before the flight?
Thinking we should get 15 weeks profit share?

They are all true!

[Praise Jebus]

330 did a pattern years ago hkg-bkk-dxb crew of two. It wasn't until you got the bkk-dxb flight plan in bkk that you realised the pattern required discretion to complete from the start. I told the bkk ground staff if we didn't push in 45 minutes from chocks on they would need to find about 300 hotel beds. We pushed in 45 no discretion required. There are not the letters 'EK' in the word discretion.

[harry the cod]

AC

In another rare case of bonding, I agree with you 100%..........except the post duty. We are given 30 minutes. You're off duty 30 minutes after chocks, just not paid for it that's all. ;)

Harry

[170to5]

Taking the piss in regards to which statement?
The 90 min check in allowance?
The 30 min check out allowance?
Running my errands before the flight?
Thinking we should get 15 weeks profit share?

They are all true!

Well we SHOULD get 30 weeks for what we put up with but if we get it, not only will I eat my hat but I will eat yours, the tag from my bag AND the snack trays, that includes eating that green, curly fruit that comes with it, whatever it may be!

[Laker]

Harry,

No we are not. Not for legality purposes. Look it up.

FDP

A period which commences when a crew member is required to report for duty..........and which finishes when the aeroplane finally comes to rest at the end of the last flight on which he is a crew member.

[helen-damnation]

AFAIK, duty ends at chocks on but we are given 30 mins for post flight duties and the rest period starts after the 30 mins :confused:

[MR8]

The 30 minutes after the duty is exactly the same as EASA. The FDP stops at chocks on, the duty period AT LEAST 30 minutes after that. If you are delayed at the aircraft for wheelchairs or so, just make a note on when your duty stopped.
It's really all in the OM-A chapter 7, and not too difficult. It might help if you actually read the chapter once in a while, it is the most important one in the book.
And BTW, we are not paid for any flown duty, we are paid for scheduled block time...

[Capn Rex Havoc]

MR8

The FDP stops at chocks on, the duty period AT LEAST 30 minutes after that. If you are delayed at the aircraft for wheelchairs or so, just make a note on when your duty stopped.
It's really all in the OM-A chapter 7, and not too difficult.

Actually MR8 there is no reference to the 30 min after chocks on in Ch 7 for pilots.

It is only in the CABIN crew section of chapter 7.

[Am NOT Sure]

30 mins post chocks on are for your rest period calculation (ex: minimum rest )

At my previous airline , few miles east of here , captains who refused outrageous discirion received reduced bonus

I wish your posts here translate into reality and actually land the aircraft somewhere

[harry the cod]

LAKER

"not for legality purposes"? Not sure what you meant by that comment as everything that's written in the OMA Chapter 7 is for legal purposes and I re affirm my statement that we do get the 30 minutes after chocks. That forms the basis for calculating post flight rest and is not part of the FDP which stops at chocks.

'Duty period' and 'Flight Duty Period' are different.

As someone has already alluded to, if we can't even work out the basics, what confidence will you have in discussing more complicated FDP issues. Refusing discretion when you're correctly interpreted the rules is one thing, refusing it because you read it wrong is another!

Be careful out there!

Harry

[MR8]

Rex Havoc: yes you are right about that, the reference of 'at least' can only be found in the cabin crew part. Having said that, as long as we share transport, the flight deck can't stop working before the cabin crew. As long as we are there, they do work under our authority, hence we are on duty as well, even if we are just waiting to get off the airplane. It is a point of view that I can defend easily towards our management in case of discussion.

Mullah: understanding what you read obviously isn't your forte.. Where did I mention that duty time is limiting? And the 30 minutes is not 'just the beginning of the subsequent rest period'. It IS the end of your DUTY period, which means it needs to be used for minimum rest calculation. It is also the reason why after a diversion where you run out of flight duty, the company can passenger you back to DXB with a relief crew if that was arranged. You might be out of FDP, but you are still on duty, and this time needs to be counted towards your rest and max DUTY periods as well. (55 in 7 etc...)

Flight Duty Period and Duty Period are two different things, one has strong limitations because they don't want you to flick switches after a certain time working, the other one is plain and simple your duty period...

[harry the cod]

Our rosters actually have the 'Arrive' time and the 'End' time published. There's your 30 minutes for post flight duties.

[Laker]

Harry,

I agree with you that Duty Period and FDP are two different animals. I am well aware of the basics. You have been here a long time. Has the 30 minutes of post flight duty ever been an issue with regards to your rest? 90% of EK layovers are 24 hours or longer.

The issues arise out of EK pushing the FDP to the max. Many of our turns are scheduled to the legal FDP limit. If you fly mach .85 and depart on time you often are forced into discretion due to the unrealistic taxi, flight, and turn around times provided by the commercial department. The unmentionable airline has made MLE and several of the South Indian destinations a layover due to the fact that they cannot be reasonably operated within the FTL limitations. All this tough talk about not accepting discretion but in 5 years I have never heard of a single EK crew refusing discretion and forcing a layover or DH back to Dubai.

[MR8]

Laker, I know of at least one case where the skipper refused to go into discretion after he warned SMNC about it. They forced him to go to TRV and promised him a short turn. You obviously can't refuse the first sector, because you are not flying into discretion yet. However he told them he would not fly the return if it meant he would have to go into discretion. Arriving at TRV, he told the ground staff that they needed to push at a certain time. Reply was "impossible". So he left the airplane and went with the crew to a hotel.

In this case, the skipper not only showed 'cojones', but he also took into account the 30 minutes after FDP towards his duty to calculate the minimum rest... :-)

Why you might never have heard of the story? The skipper never got called in because he was in his legal right to do what he did. The company keeps it quiet because they obviously doesn't want a lot of people to find out, because more guys might get the right idea...

[lospilotos]

Annex 1 states "Dispatch crew cannot be used", or something like that... What is a dispatch crew? Standby crew or what?

[Marcellus Wallace]

Dispatch crew means a set of crew that comes, sets up the cockpit for you, perform the walk around, order fuel, etc. You just come and start the engines and go...so your duty starts an hour later.

[Trader]

Laker, have done exactly that several times this year.

I do not refuse discretion. On a day flight, if we are all rested then discretion is a possibility. But on a night flight, I will never use it unless caught in a hold on the return.

Often on these night turns they try to hold the aircraft for pax or bags (or slots).

My call to VPNC is simple. I will do anything I can to operate the flights but discretion is NOT an option.

So VPNC can 1) call in a new crew and wait for the pax etc 2) leaves the pax/bags and we go on time or 3) we can wait and still fly the outbound trip but the airplane will be stuck at the outstation.

VPNC will often say "OK, go and we will try to get them to turn you quickly". My response is always the same - Firstly the block times are often only 5 min longer than the flight times (ridiculous) so they will not be able to speed the turn. BUT--this is YOUR call VPNC! When the aircraft is grounded in India with 300 plus hotel rooms it was YOUR decision! I have given you several options, if you have another idea then throw it out, I am willing to work with you. What I am NOT willing to do is to go into discretion.

They have always decided to leave the bags etc behind!

I don't refuse discretion to be difficult. I refuse because with 90 plus hours per month I know how tired I am am at night and pushing that even further is unsafe.

[Plank Cap]

How many times do we fly with colleagues who tell us that to refuse discretion is a fast ticket out of EK? We have to break this unwritten belief that discretion must be used.

Handle it as Capt. Trader describes above and things generally go well. It is Commander's Discretion, i.e. yours, to do with as you see fit on the day. Offer VPNC the facts, politely, don't get into an argument, and let them then choose an alternative from the options available. By refusing discretion we are not breaking any rules - all we really need is more of us in the left seat to accept this fact and say no when we feel we should be saying no, and the message will start to get through.

Believe me when I tell you that I am no apologist or defender of this company, but I am another who has said 'no thank you' to a suggestion to extend duty, and zero personal comeback resulted. As long was you handle the issue correctly, they will not hound you for refusing discretion.

'Aviate' your flight - 'Navigate' to the end of your Duty - and 'Communicate' your intention not to (always) offer Discretion.........