EK Disciplinary Hearings

[Snake man]

With so many pilots and cabin crew going through disciplinary proceedings and receiving warning letters, it occurred to me that perhaps we should look at the matter in a different way.
I propose that from now on, a disciplinary hearing should be joyously embraced, and a warning letter should be viewed as a badge of honour. To this end, most supermarkets and stationary stores sell small stars, which should be worn on the lapel of the shirt or jacket.
A bronze star for a “verbal warning”.
A silver star for a “written warning” and
A gold star for a “final written warning”.
Any attempts by staff to intentionally confuse the “verbal warning” which is in writing, with the “written warning” which is also in writing, in order to unlawfully accumulate silver stars should be discouraged, and may result in disciplinary action.
Naturally, you would be in contravention of the uniform standards manual, which would then result in a further disciplinary hearing, and the accumulation of stars in a manner that would make any tin-pot dictator quite envious.
For the select few who received a final written warning with summary dismissal and loss of “EOSB/Provident Fund/Pension, a platinum star with ribbon would be worn on the lapel of your business attire as you are escorted out of the country by security/immigration.

[what_goes_up]

:D :D :D You just made my day! :D

[TCU LUX]

:ok: That's hilarious.

[Stone_cold]

Hey Guys , That's not fair .You have commandeered a concept which has taken your neighbour AAB out there 40 minutes to the west , years and years to get recognized across the entire Gulf !! So much so it can be used as a letter of recommendation and a free pass through Days1 & 2 of the assessment .:E

[flaphandlemover]

where is the thumbs up button when u need one...

Thanks for making my day...

Best post for looong....

[Calmcavok]

Can we assume that all TRIs/TREs are on a final written warning?

Or does a tailored gold star, when not a trainer, automatically result in a final written warning, thereby allowing you to keep the gold star that you had tailored?

[Visual Procedures]

So now that I have a verbal warning by email, does that mean I get a bronze AND a silver star?? :D

[SOPS]

Is it a talking email?

[captainsmiffy]

Damnit....my warning got rescinded an hour or two later after some thought was finally put into what they were saying!!! Would have lost my star......

[BYMONEK]

Snake

Care to share with us what colour star you're currently wearing...........?

[Nikita81]

Snake

Care to share with us what colour star you're currently wearing...........?

He doesn't need to wear a star, he IS a star. :cool:

[Snake man]

Thanks, Nikita!
On a more serious note, is anyone else absolutely appalled by the fact that the company can take away 66% of your Provident Fund in the event you are found guilty of a rather vaguely interpretted "gross misconduct"?
It seems horrifying to me that having already taken your career and dignity, they now reach in and take your pension as well.
In recent times, there have been a few cases where the company has "offered" pilots the rather stark choice of "resign and go quietly" or else we invoke chapter C6 of the ERM, and take your pension. In some cases, that's a hit of well over a million Dhs, and not really a choice at all.
Are there any other companies in the world that do the same?
We all go to work knowing that our job is only as good as our next landing, but our pension as well?
All comments gladly received; rational and otherwise.

[BYMONEK]

I've never heard of anyone having their provident fund retained. This Company has always offered the opportunity to resign, thus allowing them to keep all of the fund even after cases of sexual harassment and gross negligence (that's the carrot to avoid messy legal action and bad press).

And the only fund they could legally retain is the A fund as that's the fund they've contributed too. The B & C fund will always be yours whatever the situation as that was your contribution.

[BigGeordie]

Actually I look at the other way round- the threat of loosing 66% of your retirement fund (who could afford that if they have been here more than a couple of years?) is used as a stick to beat you with if you threaten to turn awkward with threats of legal action and media exposure. Emirates doesn't use carrots for anything, there is only the stick.

As snake says, where else could a company threaten to take half your pension fund off you if you misbehave and/or make a mistake?

[BYMONEK]

Perhaps more common than people realise, even in 'civilised' Europe. Have heard of several cases of police who've had their pensions removed when they've been sacked for gross misconduct.

[han.solo]

That may be the case BYMONEK. It is worth considering though how easily you can be 'had' for 'gross misconduct'. At home you will have easy access to labour laws and courts, Unions and management that are held accountable by law. So while you can end up losing your pension, the reasons would be quiet solid and justified.

[Praise Jebus]

In many cases a Public Servant such as a Policeman most likely has a tax payer funded pension not self funded. If found guilty after a fair hearing available in say Europe, it would be a bit of a stretch to expect the taxpayer to then pay for their retirement...Very different situation.

[BYMONEK]

PJ

The A fund is not 'self funded', it's funded by the Company. That's the point I'm trying to make here and is perhaps being missed. I'm not questioning the possible unethical process that may or may not be used, just whether a person has the right to a pot of money that the Company has provided. Whether we like to accept it or not, there are unfortunately a very small minority of our colleagues who do stupid things at times, not always unintentionally.

Hypothetical scenario; Two pilots join on the same date and each do 10 years service, one unblemished, the other of sailing close to the wind with many warnings under his belt. Both now leave exact same day but under different circumstances with bad boy 'resigning' (getting fired) and golden balls having a joint retirement party on the third floor with TCAS. Following your logic, and apologies if I misunderstand you here, it's acceptable that both leave with the same Company contributions? I know I'll be shouted down for this, but I think the Company would have every right to keep its own contributions if a person was genuinely found guilty of gross misconduct. To not accept that principle would surely go against the true meaning of a 'just' culture, something that most of us support and demand in our challenging environment. The fact that the Company has always offered a more satisfactory option to resign must surely be a good think for those involved, no?

How the Company gets to that stage, however, is a different story altogether and not one that could always be defended.

[glofish]

I know I'll be shouted down for this, but I think the Company would have every right to keep its own contributions if a person was genuinely found guilty of gross misconduct.

Just who decides what is gross misconduct?

There lies the whole question.

If this is unilaterally in the company's esteem, with no unbiased legal recourse, then you are completely wrong to defend the whole thing.

Now you can pretend that this is not the case, that we could go to court with a fair chance, then i repeat what i said on another thread:

You are simply naive.

[BYMONEK]

glofish

I think my last paragraph confirms what you're saying so you're preaching to the converted. That's not my point and I think I've made it quite clear that's the case. I'm most certainly not trying to 'defend the whole thing'.

As for the legal system, it would be irresponsible to comment, given the new rules of bad mouthing Dubai.

[Praise Jebus]

BYMONEK I was referring to regions where one might avail of a fair hearing for misconduct .... I know of at least one collegue who after receiving a questionable final warning resigned rather than risk losing his Provident Fund .... Big stick ....

[MR8]

Not sure about this, but isn't the company obliged to pay at least your EOSB? I always thought that they pay you either 'A' or EOSB whichever is the better one.
Can they legally deny your EOSB for gross misconduct?
And if so, is that why they didn't pay that Nikita her EOSB? Because they don't have to?

I'm not trying to troll here, just genuine questions since I have very little knowledge on this subject.

[Nikita81]

Can they legally deny your EOSB for gross misconduct?

Yes.

These are quotations from Employee Regulations Manual:

Gross Misconduct is defined like this:

2.3.2 Gross Misconduct:
• Deliberately damaging or stealing company property.
• Committing any serious criminal offences at work.
• Committing proven criminal offences outside work that make the employee unsuitable to perform their duties.
• Deliberately endangering life or limb.
• Deception or fraud at work, for example, falsifying application form details, bonus sheets, expenses claims forms, personal records or sickness certification documents.
• Destruction, misuse, or improper disclosure of company documents, records or information.
• Discrimination or harassment of employees or a member of the public.
• Incapability on duty due to the effects of alcohol or non-prescribed drugs.
• Refusal to undergo an alcohol and/or drug test.
• Fighting or physical assault in uniform, or on company premises, or during working hours.
• Serious acts of insubordination.
• Action or conduct which could potentially damage the company’s reputation.
• Disregard of safety practices, procedures and rules.
• Disregard of medical advice.
• Unauthorised absence from duty for 7 consecutive days or 21 intermittent days in any one year.



Then you have this quotation:

4.5 Summary Dismissal
4.5.1 Instances of gross misconduct will warrant summary dismissal (without notice or payment in lieu of notice and, where permitted by law, without payment of end of service benefit or gratuity of any kind).


In my case I wasn't paid my EOSB because I went home without cancelling my visa. In my defence I have notified them that I went home because I didn't feel safe to give my passport to someone who threatened me with prison.

There is one more thing: since I've waited for my dismissal hearing for one month (hearing manager was on leave), I asked and I got one salary more. When I went to HQ to pick it up, officer at the counter read my HR profile (which was cancelled for me immidiately so I couldn't see what he saw on his computer) and told me that "they will not give me EOSB" and that he "doesn't know why". So I believe that they didn't have an intention to give me my EOSB anyway.

I don't think that I have violated any of these gross misconduct rules, but I guess they can interpret it the way they like it since they are not obliged to follow the rules of Dubai Labour Law and these are their internal Manual rules which they change often and without employees' consent, notyfing employees on these changes via emails.

[SOPS]

Something I was sent today...

NEVER WORK FOR HORRIBLE B:mad:RDS

Life is way too short to tolerate really bad bosses. If you find yourself working for one, unless you are desperate, start looking for a new job. Immediately. Then sack the bad boss. By leaving.

[Nikita81]

Worse option is to stay and not work (for horrible bosses). Which is what is happening to EK currently. At least in airport services they have huge problems with customer service, absence and missing from working post. So, everyone are getting poor salary, but at least they don't work (much) for it. The company is the only one that suffers this way.

[jack schidt]

Nikita, I like many feel for you and your issues with EK.

May I please ask all to stay on course with regard to this site and remind ourselves that this is a PILOT forum. The intention of the site is all things relating to aviation, including employment terms which I agree are a discussion point here.

However, like the airline down the road banning posts, I fear that Nikitas continued plight here on prune might be negative for the site and I kindly ask that you keep it to your own site or in the cabin crew forum. I know that there are many valuable posts about EK here and I just do not want to risk getting it forbidden to mention EK here if such a line of chat continues this way.

I do sympathise with you and almost all who read these pages know of your site. You have stated that your site has been "investigated" and by spilling into here it might affect us all.

End of your grievances here I hope and let's keep this site open for the good information that it can bring.

Best of luck Nikita.

J

[jack schidt]

SOPS, likewise.......you praise the fact that you have left EK. By hanging around here badmouthing the company, you too are liable to get the discussions on EK banned.

Release the anger, things have already moved on in EK since you left. Break the bond and enjoy those walks with the dog. Coming back here and stating what is now old information is pointless to the threads.

J

[Nikita81]

I do sympathise with you and almost all who read these pages know of your site. You have stated that your site has been "investigated" and by spilling into here it might affect us all.

It already affected you all.


Edit: out of 80% of people here bashing on EK, you've decided to criticize one girl who posts 0,05 posts per day and one sentimental retired pilot?

I don't need your empathy. I never did, J. I need my freedom of speech, thank you.

And since we are all expressing our wishes here, I wish that some of you leave SOPS to post whatever he wants. It is really unpleasant to read how you criticize him every day, instead of the people who made you unhappy at the first place.

[Snake man]

Jack,

I started this thread. Later, I invited all comments, rational and otherwise.
At no point did I exclude ground staff or retirees.

If you want to be a moderator, apply for the position.
You don't get to decide who posts and who doesn't.

Carry on, Nikita.
Carry on SOPS.

[LHR Rain]

Here Here.
I second the snake man.
Who made you Pope of this dump Jack?
And what does it say about the outfit we work for that you are worried about what "they" will or could do?
There is nothing slanderous on these pages because they are all our opinions. Plus the company doesn't want to bring anymore attention to itself and its business practices by banning anything. They already have the WSJ article, Nakita, and pilots very unhappy with diminished quality of new joiners and many currents pilots leaving to deal with. What more do they want to bring on?

[motojet]

I started this thread. Later, I invited all comments, rational and otherwise.
At no point did I exclude ground staff or retirees.

If you want to be a moderator, apply for the position.
You don't get to decide who posts and who doesn't.

Actually just because you are the original poster doesn't make you the moderator either Snakeman. Mr. Shidt is entitled to his opinion, whether you agree to it or not.

[jack schidt]

Snake Man....the name tag says it all, I need make no further comment.

Nikita, as I have said before, I do sympathise with your case and I am just getting bored of it now and the length you are going to for the sake of a few hundred Euros is unbelievable.

LHR.. I agree with your comment about this being a dump, I assume you mean this thread?

I wrote my comments above with the intention of trying to get a few people to consider why they continually come here with no positive result by their actions performed here. Infact, their actions might have the opposite effect and not allow them or all of us to get heard as the site might get blocked/banned in the UAE or restricted from posting EK topics.

The saying goes that the problem about stupid people is that they don't realise that they are stoopid! This seems to apply to some posters in the ME forum. Time to use the block function on some repetitive poorly written posters with their ill informed comments.

Good day to all

J

[Nikita81]

I am just getting bored of it now and the length you are going to for the sake of a few hundred Euros is unbelievable.

If you think that I did what I did for a few hundred euros, then I have no further comment than:

The saying goes that the problem about stupid people is that they don't realise that they are stoopid!

why they continually come here with no positive result by their actions performed here

Think twice. Or don't. But then the same comment on stupidity applies.

Infact, their actions might have the opposite effect and not allow them or all of us to get heard as the site might get blocked/banned in the UAE or restricted from posting EK topics.

And you will be left without a place to whine every day? Ok, I will reduce my posting here.

And before you start to whine how much you sacrificed to become a pilot and continue to behave like an elitist, remember that your actions truly don't have any effect, let alone positive one. Which is the worst case scenario in life.

[EX380]

I am another Pilot that knows all this warning letter and capability hearings process until the end, the very end.
They destroyed my family.
How many os us are there? EVERYBODY in this company knows a bunch of people that ended up resigning "Voluntarely".
Almost everybody is terribly scared, and the ones that are not... Just do not stop and think about it.
About 100 warning letters are handed every year only in the 380 fleet.
The fear policy is something they want. They want you to go scared to work, because they think that you will work better.

[Gulf News]

On a lighter note………………… From Grouptoday;)

HR in co-ordination with EGIT are proud to announce the roll out of yet another facility available via the HR self-service kiosks located at various strategic locations around the Emirates buildings in Dubai. From May 1st employees will be able to issue their own warning letters at the self-service machines. This is a significant enhancement that will save valuable time and manpower. SVP HRWL (Senior Vice President Human Resources Warning Letters) Ali Al Hityou said that the project is the culmination of a lot of work and cooperation between his department and EGIT that will significantly reduce the workload on his department staff. Statistics show that each member of staff is issued with at least one warning letter per calendar year which is in line with the EKSMP (Emirates Staff Motivation Policy) and with an ever-increasing staff count this is expected to increase exponentially so it makes sense that the process is automated.

With the roll out of the new module staff will be able to issue themselves with both verbal warnings and written warnings in addition to verbal written warnings. To fully understand the process staff should familiarize themselves with the disciplinary procedures contained in the relevant Employee Regulations handbook. Additionally an online learning module has been developed to raise awareness amongst staff. All staff must complete the learning module before April 30th failing which they will be required to present themselves to a self-service machine for the issuance of one of the aforementioned warnings.

[Curry Goat]

Effin hilarious :D:D:D:D

[TangoUniform]

This is brilliant. You captured it perfectly. Unfortunately, you probably have given some minion an idea which will result in a Chairman's Najam for him/her next year.

[d71146]

Absolutely hilarious

[EX380]

You really captured the spirit. VERY GOOD!:D

[Yossarian]

Hahaha! Spot on Gulf! Love it! :D

[ekwhistleblower]

Magic! Very funny.