Australian ATPL(H) conversion to EASA Equivalent

[Hey-Driver]

Has anybody had any recent success trying to convert an Australian CASA issued ATPL Helicopter licence to an EASA ATPL Helicopter licence?

What are the number of theory exams, flight tests, medical examinations, to be completed?

Which is the best EASA member state to do this in?

Has the process become easier now that CASA issues Part 61 ICAO licences?

I haven't found any reliable information on this subject on the internet.

Thanks.

Hey-Driver

[paco]

What are the number of theory exams, flight tests, medical examinations, to be completed?

14 TK exams, but if you have 1000 hours multicrew you are exempt formal training. However, this would be a BIG mistake.

1 flight test, plus any type rating issues. If you are current and have 500 hours on a machine they will grant you a type rating with just an LPC. Otherwise it will be a full type rating course.

1 medical exam

Which is the best EASA member state to do this in?

Probably the UK, but the IAA (Ireland) are also worth considering for future licence issues. You would likely have to do the medical there though.

Has the process become easier now that CASA issues Part 61 ICAO licences?

Probably not :)

Phil

[Hey-Driver]

Thanks Phil,

Do you have a reference for these requirements? A UK CAA document maybe?

There has been talk of CASA working with EASA to allow the reciprocal recognition of most of the ATPL theoretical knowledge exams for licence conversions. This is a bit more realistic than repeating the whole ATPL theory course (14 exams), wouldn't you agree?

CASA has a document which details the requirements for overseas ATPL (H) conversions in Australia which is available at:

casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/fcl/.../atplh_requirements.pdf

They only require three theory exams to be passed as part of converting an overseas ATPL:

- CPL Flight Rules and Air Law for Helicopters (CLWH)
- Human Factors (AHUF)
- ATPL Air Law (AALW)

- then the IREX exam to allow the issue of a CIR

There are also separate flight tests for the issue of the ATPL and the CIR.

Thanks again.

HD

[ersa]

Im doing mine now, the help of phil for the theory....

You will be up for the 14 TK exams.....
Pass the EASA medical
Flight test .....

CAP 804 section 4 part Q subpart2 page 1

To convert your singles over 100 hours in each type to avoid a full blown type rating

To convert multi over 300 hours on type

The conversion process was easier under CAR5 , now you have to prove all your ratings to EASA as there not on your licence...

Good LUCK...It is not advisable to sit the exams without a course....contact Phil...

Doing it under the UK CAA and avoid the German Nazi under any circumstances

There has been talk of CASA working with EASA to allow the reciprocal recognition of most of the ATPL theoretical knowledge exams for licence conversions. This is a bit more realistic than repeating the whole ATPL theory course (14 exams), wouldn't you agree? Thats a JOKE

[Bomber ARIS]

Good info so far.

If I have over 300 hours on a particular multi-engine helicopter, will my CASA type-rating be transferred to my new EASA licence without needing a type-rating flight test? (i.e. is it just a paperwork exercise?)

Thanks

[paco]

You need 500 hours for that :)

phil

[Bomber ARIS]

Thanks, Phil

[Hey-Driver]

Thanks for the information ersa.

Which part of CASA talking to EASA to get recognition of ATPL subjects do you think is a joke? The possibility that they could actually cooperate to that degree, or are you referring to the reduction of exams possibly affecting the ATPL holder's competence in their new country of ops?

Hats off to you for doing the 14 exams :D, but recognition of prior learning is standard in most training and licensing organisations today.

HD

[Hey-Driver]

Bomber ARIS,

The section of UK CAA CAP 804 which covers the 'Acceptance of Class and Type Ratings' says for a type rating issued by a third country to be inserted into your Part-FCL Licence you need:

- to meet the experience requirements for the rating
- pass the relevant skills test
- be in current flying practice
- have 350 hours in that type (for a large twin helicopter)

This suggests that you do need a flight test (they call it a skills test).

HD

Ref: CAP 804, Section 4 Part Q, subsection 2, page 5.

[212man]

This suggests that you do need a flight test (they call it a skills test).


Yes, though it can be done in a simulator.

have 350 hours in that type (for a large twin)

Used to be 500 hrs and still is for aeroplanes.

[ersa]

Hey-driver,

My moons ago , casa was invited to join the UK CAA syllabus , but declined , saying they were busy developing there own syllabus....

Now the UK CAA follow EASA, CASA have zero chance of any recognition , apart from being an ICAO member..

to get a type rating put on the licence, yes you will be up for skills test, but exempt from any training

[Hey-Driver]

I see your point ersa, but I think it's just a matter of time before the EASA makes a determination for all third party states that makes it easier for pilots to move to and work in the EU. It's called globalisation.

CASA has done it for overseas ATPL recognition in Australia, so 'burying the hatchet' is possible.

With an ATPL ground school course in the UK costing over $4000 AU, and taking at least 250 hours of study, I think I might wait this one out.

Could be a while though :hmm:. Time to go flying...

[paco]

650 hours...... :)

250 for the CPL(H)

Phil

[whoknows idont]

...I think it's just a matter of time before the EASA makes a determination for all third party states that makes it easier for pilots...

You have a lot to learn about how EASA "works"... :}

[ersa]

Hey driver,

Easa are a protectionist organization, They don't want anyone else in the zone, I agree with you ....You will be long dead before any recognition ....

Just think about type rating , EASA will give you a rating based on your icao rating , but you will need 100 hours for singles and 350 for multis

Your instrument rating , they will give you 15 hours credit, still going to cost you well over 30k pounds to convert it

[singesavant]

Your instrument rating , they will give you 15 hours credit, still going to cost you well over 30k pounds to convert it


Overmore EASA thinks aviation as airplanes and major companies (british airways air france and such...), they don't give a dam about helicopters and smaller operators it is so obvious over here in france; helicopters operator re troubles makers for them...

IR training cost are ridiculous in france thanks to all those regulations!

[Hey-Driver]

650 hrs if you hold a PPL

250 hrs if you hold a CPL and IR

I'd love to see the look on a overseas ATPL holder's face when the UK ATO tells them they have the experience of a PPL holder…'err, that'll be 650 hours of study for your subjects old chap. Come back when you're finished and we'll see what we can do'. :sad:

Ref: CAP 804 Part 1, Appendix 3 to PART-FCL, Part H - ATP modular course - Helicopters

This just gets better.

[paco]

Hmm, you're quite right, but we take people through the whole thing anyway, given that 20% of the questions are wrong. Put another way, we work from PPL knowledge. If they have even that.

You cannot pass these exams on knowledge alone. At the moment :)

Phil

[ersa]

Phil is correct, if you rock up to EASA with any NON EASA icao Licence ATPL,CPL, they will only recognise this as a PPL.

You will then need to pass 13 exams for the CPL or 14 for ATPL, but either way you will need 650 hours of tuition .

[Hey-Driver]

You have a lot to learn about how EASA "works"... :}

…that's why I'm here asking questions.

It's also why I'm asking for references to authoritative documents, so hopefully I come away with the facts and can make an informed decision.

Thanks for the information so far.

[paco]

You could either send yourself to sleep with the FCL regulations or have a read through CAP 804 (from the UK CAA), which has a better plot :)

Otherwise, please feel free to ask. I will be at a meeting in May about revising the Learning Objectives, and I will take the opportunity to ask about cross licensing. One airline in Canada seems to have a concession with regard to EASA.

Phil

[ersa]

Ok Phil I will add one,

What has general Nav exam got to do with flying helicopters ?

[paco]

Actually, plenty if you're talking about navigation rather than pilotage. I use convergency, departure etc. all the time in N Alberta.

Don't forget that Nav also includes compasses, time zones etc.

phil

[Hey-Driver]

Does anyone have a reference or information on foreign ATPL conversion requirements in Ireland?

H-D

[paco]

They are EASA, so they will be the same, but ring them up and ask - they are very friendly

Phil

[AK355]

The info being given here is correct!

I just went through the ICAO CPL(H) to EASA conversion process in the UK with licences from NZ, Austraila and the US, and well over 10,000 hrs PIC helicopter.

Here what you have to do, there's no way round it! :ugh:

There are some paperwork hoops you have to jump through, but the main elements of the conversion are:

* Undertake an EASA approved Theoretical Knowledge course at an EASA Approved Training Organisation, which includes 2 individual weeks of consolidation at the school facility

* Take and pass all 13 x Theoretical Knowledge Examinations, 14 for ATPL

FYI, there are restrictions on the number of times you can take each individual exam; fail any exam 4 times and you start the whole process all over again. No credit given for the TKEs you've already taken and passed and back to school you must go, so think seriously about in what order you want to take the exams, and make sure you know your stuff for each exam. I used CAPT as my training school and managed to avoid any retakes (many thanks Phil/Paco!)

Of all the "new" (read irrelevant) stuff I learned in the hundreds of hours of home study undertaken to ensure the exams were passed timely for the above reasons, I have since put just one solitary thing to occasional good use. The rest can, and already has been dumped!

* 1st class EASA medical (for the UK it can only be taken at CAA House, Gatwick)

* Flight training as required for the skill test

FYI again, you must be recommended to EASA for the skill test by the Head of Training of the flight school, and EASA must approve that recommendation before you can take the skill test, which might be a sticking point if you try to limit the training as required to just 2.1 hrs to save money!

* Take and pass the skill test.

Good luck if you are going to convert to EASA, you'll need it if you don't put in hundreds of hours of mind numbing unecessary work, and expense naturally! Study course fees, test prep questions (hightly rcommended,) hotel bills, food expenses, multiple commercial flights and/or rental car costs, TK exam fees, flight training (~ 5 hrs is acceptble to EASA,) skill test examiner fees, and licence issuance fees of course!

:mad:

[Hey-Driver]

Thanks AK,

Up and coming helicopter pilots in Europe are probably reading this thread with a sense of security. Foreign ATPL holder's contemplating working in the EU are given very few concessions, while an EASA ATPL can attract generous concessions in countries like Australia.

I'm looking at the investment in time and money required to get an EASA licence as just another stage of my career as a pilot. I'm yet to crunch the numbers to see if it is worth it, and I'll post the results when I get the chance.

This thread has prepared me for the slice of humble pie that the ATO has waiting for me though. I'll look for professional recognition of my training and experience when engaging EU employers, not the training organisations.

H-D

[ersa]

HD , it doesn't matter about your experience , you don't pass the exams - no licence ...

The casa ATPL H theory coverage is 1 foot deep and 1 mile wide
The EASA ATPL H theory coverage is 1cm deep and 1000 miles wide

There are no short cuts ....

[Hey-Driver]

I think you may have misinterpreted my intent mate...

If I decide to do the exams and get my EASA licence, I understand that I will be treated as a PPL pilot when I approach a training organisation. I'm not expecting any shortcuts here.

But if I do get my EASA licence, thats when my previous training and experience becomes important, because that's what employers are looking for - they will recognise my pre-EASA flying!

[AK355]

You are welcome H-D!

I am going to throw a curved ball at you here. You can fly in EASA land on an EASA issued Validation of your foreign licence for limited period of time, but there are restrictions of course. You never really get anything for free in aviation!

An EASA 1st class medical, a bunch of correctly completed paperwork including sending (or taking) all your log books to the Aviation Authority in the country in which you wish to fly, and a paid fee of course may/should get you a 12 month Validation of your ICAO CPL(H) or ATPL(H).

Once the Validation is issued, you may fly commercially in EASA land until the expiry date of that Validation, but you may only fly commercial Aerial Work (read utility) and you may not fly passengers (apart from employees of the company for whom you fly - they are not considered to be passengers!)

Before your initial Validation expires, and only if you are enrolled on an approved theoretical knowledge course at an EASA Approved Training Organisation, and can prove that you really are working towards converting your ICAO licence to EASA and not just trying to get a freebie ride in EASA land for a few more months, your Validation may be extended a further once only and for a further limited time; the length of which is at the mercy of the Aviation Authority in that country. Expect 3 - 6 months, buy a lottery ticket if you get 12.

By the expiry date of that extension, EASA firmly believes you will have had sufficient time to convert your licence, and a further extension will not be entertained. You may claim that extreme circumstances have prevailed and that you wish to contest the length of extension afforded to you; this can be done citing point 2, Annex III, A. Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 which states that "...the extension shall cover the period of time necessary for the licence to be issued in accordance with Part-FCL", however, it seems that each Authority within EASA has an "interpretation of the rule" card they sometimes like to play, so good luck with that!

The ICAO to EASA conversion is lengthy, of that there is no doubt. However, a lot can be done to prepare for the conversion before hand. There's nothing stopping you from buying the conversion course books, getting your head into them in a big way, doing all the hard yards in your spare time waiting at a rig, or when it's a down day for weather, then nipping over to EASA land for a 3 week holiday and doing the 2 week long consolidation courses back to back if it can be arranged, then sitting all 13/14 exams in one go during the last week of your holiday!

From there, you'll know which exams you've passed and can forget, and can concentrate on the ones you blew for your next trip over. You never know, you might pass them all first time, it's been done plenty of times before - maybe not in one sitting though..!

Out of interest, you can now sit UK based EASA Theoretical Knowledge E-Exams at Jerez in Spain, Orlando in the US, and Sepang in Malaysia. Other countries may follow in due course, contact the UK CAA for more information.

From there, once you have all 13/14 exams passed, you can knock the flight training and skill test out in 2 weeks easily. All the small piston engined aircraft are available in the UK, plus 206s, 350s, 355s, 109s, and maybe 500s. 135s are in country for training of course, but I don't think they are currently available for commercial skill tests as they have to be operated by the CPL(H) ATO, and on their books for CPL(H) training and examination!

BTW, the training organisation will respect and treat you as a CPL/ATPL, just not a licenced one in their country. Their mission is to polish you to be able to pass the EASA skill test under the guideline "training as required". Expect 4 - 7 hours unless you are already a qualified CFI/TRI/TRE/FX on type in the local area!

The oral part of the skill test examination is fairly non existent so to speak, there is no major quizzing like in other countries, however the examiner can ask you any question pertaining to the preparation of your pre-flight paperwork, the weather, etc, and of course the skill test flight itself.

For the skill test, the navigation section is 3 parted and 1/2 the skill test battle, the rest is general handling, both emergency and non-emergency.

Start honing your skills on using a map again, including how to unfold and refold it whilst flying as a GPS is not allowed during the test (apart from the diversion part of the nav-ex.) If there is no GPS physically installed and hard mounted in the aircraft in which you take the test, tough, an auxiliary GPS is not allowed!

Hope that helps a little more.

Fly Safe!