India buys 36 COTS Rafales

[PPRuNeUser0139]

India has reportedly signed up for 36 "off the shelf" Rafales (http://www.ndtv.com/cheat-sheet/india-will-buy-36-rafale-jets-in-fly-away-condition-from-france-says-pm-modi-753984)..

[BEagle]

Excellente! Ca marche!!

Canada next - and $hitcan the ridiculous F-35A?

[sharpend]

Interesting that India can afford to buy all those aircraft, not to mention sending rockets into space, so why are we giving them overseas aid when we have no money?

[BEagle]

Blunty, me old, see UK to end financial aid to India by 2015 - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20265583)

Overseas aid to India should have been phased out by now.....

How's the book going....:E ??

[Willard Whyte]

Overseas aid to India should have been phased out by now.....

Probably should've been phased out when they set up their space program. In 1969.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/10/2588E5A000000578-0-image-a-90_1423577969990.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/10/2588E64800000578-2947400-Squalor_The_scene_outside_this_health_centre_is_typical_of_m any_-a-51_1423570514246.jpg

[camelspyyder]

Or when they built nuclear weapons whilst millions of their people starve.



Just like Israel according to a current Christian/Jewish Charity begging campaign here in the US.

[Martin the Martian]

I still won't hold my breath.

[peter we]

If course India shouldn't spend money on defense until its eradicated poverty. Just like the UK and the USA.

The title of this thread should be changed to 'India Might Buy Rafales'.

The price and number of aircraft are under discussion. The lack of a competitive tender could be an issue (as this is effectively a cancellation of the MMRCA competition), what with the Rafales haven been proven to not the cheapest of the aircraft.

A member of the PM's own party is considering blocking the purchase in court.

[Reinhardt]

Peter


I understand a lot might be disappointed in UK !


I will post - and send you - withon a few months the pictures of the first Rafales with Indian AF roundels.


If Typhoon / Eurofighters had be a little more present in the various operations theaters of the past years, it might have been helping....

[NutLoose]

My own view is they will always be a third world country until they address and raise the standards of the populace, until then they rank alongside countries such as the African States who squander billions on the means to kill while their uneducated population still s**ts in the fields.

[disalechinmay]

For those, who hate India, F:mad:K OFF!
We ain't give a :mad: to other nations who can't see our progress.

LOL, no nation in the world can eradicate poverty completely! Aren't there poor people in USA or Canada? Or probably UK which was driven out by India and many other nations like stray dog?:\:E

We have got the most terrible place position on Earth and that's the reason why we need such fighters. There's terror and just terror on our Pakistan side. China and its childish behavior should not be believed upon. :=

By the way, I don't want to start a third world war here. We are in a modern and mature world. :ok::)

[Jimlad1]

I'll believe it when I see it - the French and Indian officials have a lot of work to do to make this work, and the Indians are hard work to deal with.

Given how much the French government is promising in terms of 'off the shelf' aircraft, I wonder how badly the French Air Force will be cannibalised to provide this. Also how other interested parties looking at Typhoon and Rafale will react when they do the sums on the deal and work out how much more the French are charging them than the Indians...

[peter we]

The French are going to charge almost twice what the Indians want to pay or were originally quoted, largely because they want to supply the latest version.

There won't be any technology transfer, which was the whole point of the competition; without it India needs to do another tender on a different basis.

As I already mentioned, Modi is going to be challenged on this,

Swamy takes on Narendra Modi, calls new Rafale jet deal between India, France a 'case of arbitrariness' - IBNLive (http://ibnlive.in.com/news/swamy-takes-on-narendra-modi-calls-new-rafale-jet-deal-between-india-france-a-case-of-arbitrariness/539202-37-64.html)


I will post - and send you - withon a few months the pictures of the first Rafales with Indian AF roundels.
No delivery for at least and a half years, Indian defense minister, as the price etc, etc needs to be discussed

India to wait another two years for French Rafale jets - minister - Channel NewsAsia (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/india-to-wait-another-two/1779106.html)

[Willard Whyte]

For those, who hate India, FK OFF!
We ain't give a to other nations who can't see our progress.

LOL, no nation in the world can eradicate poverty completely! Aren't there poor people in USA or Canada? Or probably UK which was driven out by India and many other nations like stray dog?

We have got the most terrible place position on Earth and that's the reason why we need such fighters. There's terror and just terror on our Pakistan side. China and its childish behavior should not be believed upon.

By the way, I don't want to start a third world war here. We are in a modern and mature world.

I don't think anyone here "hates India". What some of us hate, and indeed India itself has asked us to stop, is sending foreign aid to a country with indigenous space and nuclear programs, and enough spare change to consider, at least, buying some pretty capable off the shelf combat aircraft.

I certainly don't begrudge India's right to any and all of the above, nor, frankly, do I give a damn about people over there sh*tting in the gutter, but I don't want MY hard earned tax pounds going there when we have capability vacations that need urgent attention - as well as a nascent, and potentially very profitable, advanced space project that may not get off the ground (ha-ha) without some form of government backing.

[Wannabe Flyer]

The 36 aircraft in flyaway condition are ctually being signed under the govt to govt deal allowed by Indian law bypassing procurement protocol. This is the same route taken by previous govts to get the c17 and the c 130 for the IAF as well as the p8 for the navy. This basically is a smart way to bypass and equip the aircraft and by choosing an already selected aircraft remives the doubt of a bribe or selecting an inferior product. No dobt the price will be grwat due to the depreciated Euro and will be a win win for both countries. Do note a follow up order for the c 130 and c 17 has already been placed.

I have no doubts that in under 2 years induction will start and the original contract for 108 plus 18 will keep winding along in due course of time.

As for Swamy...he is simply posturing and is a noise maker and is contemplating of filing a stay citing poor performance of the aircraft and other countries not wanting it.......something that will be chucked out as the intensive competitive analysis by the IAF and its subsequent findings would mean that swamy is challenging the very MMRCA contract and competancy of the IAF and not the method of purchse which he cannot challenge...

[rh200]

If India was to do as a lot of people are implying here, they would be like most socialist sh!t holes, and be even worse off than now. For the most part, the west hasn't totally eradicated poverty in their own countries.

Frankly its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Keeping things in perspective in regards to the technological and social gradient over a short time frame, they have done far better then we in the west have ever achieved.

The piddling amounts they have spent on items they think are vital for the progression and security of their country would do stuff all to eradicate poverty in real terms.

A society needs to develop over a broad base, they are doing that, are they doing it right, who the f#$k knows. If it collapses then no.

[BEagle]

The legacy of the Raj was that they gave us curry and we gave them bureaucracy......

Sorry about that, disalechinmay - but thanks for all the curry!

[peter we]

this basically is a smart way to bypass and equip the aircraft and by choosing an already selected aircraft

No true. The Eurofighter and Rafale were selected on the basis of technical ability and technology transfer potential.

The Rafale was chosen over the EF because its Total Cost of Ownership was given to be cheaper by the French.

This price has since escalated by 60-100%. The Rafale is no longer the cheapest. However, the rules of the competition say the process has to be completely restarted if this happens.

So the French have screwed the Indians by destroying their tender process by under stating costs and making the IAF's needs even more desperate.


No dobt the price will be grwat due to the depreciated Euro and will be a win win for both countries.

The fall in the Rupee far exceeds that of the Euro and India has been gleefully spending the allocated funds on operating.

I have no doubts that in under 2 years induction will start and the original contract for 108 plus 18 will keep winding along in due course of time.

I'll trust the Indian Defense minister over you.


..something that will be chucked out as the intensive competitive analysis by the IAF and its subsequent findings would mean that swamy is challenging the very MMRCA contract and competancy of the IAF and not the method of purchse which he cannot challenge...

Eurofighter and the Rafale were selected on an equal basis by the IAF. The F-35 would have been rejected because the 'Made in India' component and TTF would be non-existant. The situation has also considerably changed since the Competition began and ended, for instance EF will soon have CFT, Brimstone, Storm Shadow and AESA.

According to the rules of the MRCA competition a new competition should now be run.

remives the doubt of a bribe or selecting an inferior product.

Making a personal decision to bypass the procurement rules blows that argument out of the water.

[spooky3]

What are we the 6th7th richest nation in the world? And we open more food banks every day!

[TEEEJ]

2015 was the last year for UK financial grant aid to India.

In November 2012, the Secretary of State announced an agreement with the Government of India on a new type of development relationship, ending the UK’s programme of financial grant aid to India. New development co-operation programmes are now either technical assistance programmes focused on sharing skills and expertise, or investments in private sector projects focused on helping the poor. Existing financial grant projects will be completed responsibly, so that all are closed as planned by 2015.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208445/annual-report-accounts2013-13.pdf

[Reinhardt]

Quote:
for instance EF will soon have CFT, Brimstone, Storm Shadow and AESA ...will soon !


All things - or equivalent - that Rafale already has .... and has been demonstrating in Lybia, Afghanistan, Mali, Irak, when another Air Force had to rely on the Tornadoes.


And to finish with fireworks, what about the deck-landing capability of the Typhoon (you know, the balsa model with a hook) ? (to be tested on which carrier ?...)

[exhorder]

And to finish with fireworks, what about the deck-landing capability of the Typhoon (you know, the balsa model with a hook) ? (to be tested on which carrier ?...)

You said it yourself - why should anyone have thought about a carrier-capable Eurofighter variant without any possible carrier in sight? This rather obnoxious detail (at least in the context of India's defense procurement) seems to render your comments quite irrelevant, given their fanboy-esque tone.

Saying that Rafale 'already has' Brimstone, CFT and AESA doesn't help, either.

[Reinhardt]

Rafale in FAF squadrons with AESA (in English)


https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/aesa_rbe2_5_juin_val_def_bat_ok.pdf


When I have time, I will list the air-to-ground weapons Rafale has, and Typhoon doesn't have, simple.

[Martin the Martian]

I believe that Rafale has replaced Jaguars first in the French air force, which may explain why it currently has better air-ground capabilities than Typhoon. All four Eurofighter nations have used it initially to equip air defence squadrons, seeing the multi-role aspect as the next stage.

Or to put it another way, there's plenty of life in those Tornados for a few more years yet, so what's the rush? Not so great for export prospects, admittedly.

[Martin the Martian]

disalechinmay, I've just re-read your post and, at the risk of getting a torrent of abuse, you really need to get rid of that chip on your shoulder and stop blaming everyone else for India's problems.

Yes, there are poor people in the UK, but frankly they live like kings compared to India's poor. And, while we're at it, my wife can get on a bus unaccompanied safe in the knowledge that she won't be gang raped and murdered. Or would that be her fault if she did, like in your 'modern and mature' society?

India has achieved a great deal since 1947, but it still has a long way to go.

Rant over. Back on topic.

[Engines]

Just to help things along:

There have been a number of (quite expensive) studies carried out over around 15 years into adapting Typhoon for carrier ops. Some were funded by the Uk MoD, with the QEC as the possible target carrier. These studies involved a substantial amount of simulator studies. I am sure that further studies were carried out to back up BAe's effort to pitch a 'Sea Typhoon' to India.

The basic issue, which the studies revealed, is that the aircraft would need a new centre section and aft end, plus an all new landing gear and wing to handle arresting loads, plus some fancy and quite scary ideas about flying techniques in the last phase of a landing, with some fancy aerodynamic tweaks to be tested. Launch was assumed to be via a ramp assisted STO, which would be unable to launch the aircraft at anything near MTOGW i.e. with full weapons and fuel. Redesigning the aircraft for a cat launch would be highly problematic, especially with that intake scooping up lots of lovely hot steam. In short, the Typhoon as it stands is a non-starter as a naval aircraft, IMHO.

My take, for what it's worth (which honestly isn't much) is that this record of extended discussion of a marinised Typhoon only goes to show how far the UK's general level of fixed wing naval aviation engineering knowledge has fallen. It's generally not the fault of today's engineers and pilots, it's more down to lack of opportunity it to practice the discipline for real.

Hope this helps a little

Engines

[exhorder]

Rafale in FAF squadrons with AESA (in English)


https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/de...def_bat_ok.pdf

An advertising brochure provided by the manufacturer, with no reference whatsoever made to squadron service - just great. The first AESA-equipped Rafales entered operational service in 2014, so it is quite far-fetched to claim (as you did) that this capability has been "demonstrated" in operational service.

Same goes for CFT, and to my knowledge, there is no equivalent to Brimstone in AdlA service.

For the record: I'm not claiming that Typhoon is perfect, quite the opposite in fact. But your posts sound like the things a mediocre salesman would say.

[Willard Whyte]

Same goes for CFT, and to my knowledge, there is no equivalent to Brimstone in AdlA service.

Although Reinhardt may have indulged in a spot of hyperbole it would be true to say that Rafale has had a AG capability for some years. The AASM 'Hammer' family of weapons include INS/GPS, laser, and IR guidance variants on a selection of warheads from 125 to 1000kg.

Accepting a touch of verbatim brochure glossiness, more info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASM#Libya).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Aasm5.jpg/300px-Aasm5.jpg

[FakePilot]

The first thing the Chinese will do after taking over is re-route the poor assistance money into their defense program. And the poor will be screwed again, except this time no one will use their interests for political gain.

[ORAC]

It would appear the impasse was because the Indian government wanted Dassault to absorb all the costs/risks for the aircraft to be built by HAL in India. Dassault wanted to be paid for the risk, and neither side would budge.

The Indian government obviously believe it will be easier to pressure the French government on the issue and want to switch to a government to government sale, presumably expecting that with future sales and prestige at stake the French taxpayer will pick up the additional costs/risks; the current order being a sweetener for the deal.....

AW&ST: India Rethinking Rafale Fighter Deal (http://aviationweek.com/defense/india-rethinking-rafale-fighter-deal)

NEW DELHI – India is rethinking its long-delayed 126-aircraft Medium-Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, and may opt to scrap the fighter purchase in favor of government-to-government sales, since negotiations under the existing request for proposals (RFP) had “gone into a loop with no solution in sight,” according to India’s defense minister.

Barely two days after India’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to Paris, negotiated with the French government to buy 36 Dassault Rafale fighter jets in flyaway condition under a separate deal, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar on April 13 categorically stated that “if India goes in for additional Rafale fighters, it will also be through government-to-government deals.”......... The defense minister refrained from saying the original deal had been scrapped altogether, but quipped that “a car can not run on two paths simultaneously ... The other road [MMRCA] had a lot of problems.”.

The final negotiations for the MMRCA project with Dassault have been deadlocked for more than a year due to the company’s refusal to accept liability for the 108 jets to be made in India by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

India also maintains the French firm raised the price of the fighter. Under the original plan, 18 MMRCAs were to be bought off the shelf, with the remaining 108 manufactured by HAL in India. India has been insisting that it will not accept a hike in the L-1 (lowest bidder) price provided by Dassault since it had led Rafale to defeat the Eurofighter Typhoon in commercial evaluation in January 2012.

Dassault Chairman and CEO Eric Trappier has repeatedly denied any change in the value of the MMRCA deal, asserting the price and terms are well known. However, New Delhi’s insistence that Dassault back the quality of aircraft produced locally under the tender risks increasing the cost of manufacturing the combat jets in India, where a lack of technical know-how could increase the time needed to build a Rafale to the same standard as that of one coming off of Dassault’s Merignac production line...........

Air Marshal Matheswaran (ret.), former deputy chief at integrated defense staff headquarters and currently an advisor to HAL, says, “By delaying it endlessly, the 126-aircraft deal has become a question mark on its financial viability. Besides, there have been serious questions on Dassault’s willingness to comply with technology requirements and cost control. In the current context of [the] ‘Make in India’ strategy, it may need to be dealt with outside the limits imposed by the request for proposals. ... Effectively, the intergovernmental agreement has sealed the fate of the RFP process.”

Matheswaran also thinks the MMRCA experience clearly indicates that it would be better for such procurements to be done through an intergovernmental process where strategic interests are unambiguously stated, negotiated without compromise, and rapidly set into motion. “It is important that in such a decision-making, professionals and technocrats rather than a generalist bureaucracy aid the political leadership,” he says..........

[ORAC]

Defence News:

PARIS — Qatar will sign contracts for 24 Dassault Rafale fighter jets and MBDA missiles May 4, President François Hollande's office said Thursday.

The Rafale deal, which includes the missiles, training for 36 pilots and some 100 mechanics, is worth €6.3 billion ($7.1 billion), a Defense Ministry official said.

"At the invitation of Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, the Emir of Qatar, the president of the Republic will go to Doha on May 4 to attend the signing of contracts between Dassault Aviation and MBDA, and Qatar, as well as the intergovernmental agreement which sets the framework for cooperation between our two countries," the president's Elysée office said in a statement.......

First delivery is due in 2017, daily Le Monde reported.

[ORAC]

Defence News: India Cancels $12B Combat Jet Program (http://www.defensenews.com/story/breaking-news/2015/08/04/india-cancels-12b-combat-jet-program/31097627/)

NEW DELHI — India has canceled its $12 billion program to purchase 126 medium multirole combat aircraft.

According to a July 30 press release from the Indian Ministry of Defence, "The RFP issued earlier for procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has been withdrawn. In this multi-vendor procurement case, the Rafale aircraft met all the performance characteristics stipulated in the Request for Proposal (RFP) during the evaluation conducted by Indian Air Force."

The release added, "This information was given by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Ahmed Patel in the upper house of parliament on Thursday, 30 July 2015."

Indian officials provided no reason for the cancellation. Dassault Aviation, prime contractor for the Rafale, was not immediately available for comment......

[peter we]

Still no deal. Differences on the issues of price and offsets.
Rafale deal: Pricing issues, India's insistence on 50% local spending lead to missing of July target - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/rafale-deal-pricing-issues-indias-insistence-on-50-local-spending-lead-to-missing-of-july-target/articleshow/48288656.cms)

[peter we]

I will post - and send you - withon a few months the pictures of the first Rafales with Indian AF roundels

Never going to happen

[Fonsini]

Wasn't the Tejas supposed to be filling this role, is India having second thoughts about its capabilities ?

Speaking of the Tejas, whatever happened to the mythical Kaveri ?

[DirtyProp]

By the way, I don't want to start a third world war here. We are in a modern and mature world. :ok::)
Then why do you need war planes?

[peter we]

Dassault demands Rs 90,000 cr for Rafale, India won’t give in (http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/3699-dassault-demands-rs-90000-cr-rafale-india-won-t-give)

A top source in the MoD, who is a part of the PNC and is, thus, privy to the development, told this newspaper, “The Defence Minister (Manohar Parrikar) is playing hardball. Obviously, the French have quoted an obscene amount of money for these planes. We are clear that we will not be bullied into buying overpriced jets. We are the ones who are buying. We will decide what to buy and how much we want to pay. They want around 12 billion euros for the jets. We have told them that we will not give you more than 8 billion euros. Negotiations are on, but we have not been able to come to a compromise.”
The source also added, “The minister is not willing to pay over the top. A strong lobby is pushing for the deal to be signed soon. They are trying to create some urgency in government circles and in the public. They are hoping that this will put pressure on the hasty signing of the deal, without much bargaining. The minister has made it clear to the acquisition committee that if the French do not give in to our price demands and stay adamant then we may look into other options.”
A compromise could not be reached on the price during the visit of French President Francoise Hollande in January. “That is why the deal was stalled,” said the MoD source


India keen to buy F/A 18 Super Hornet fighter jets for IAF (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india-keen-to-buy-f18-super-hornet-fighter-jets-for-iaf/1/626657.html)

India is keen to consider Boeing's offer to supply F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets to the Indian Air Force (IAF).
Sources said that New Delhi will take a hard look at the proposal in April when a high-level delegation will engage the Indian officials on the construct of the offer. US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter will be in India on April 10 in a visit that is expected to take lift cooperation to a new level.
Boeing has offered F/A-18 Super Hornets under the "Make in India" framework of the Indian government. Sources said the proposal is worth considering as IAF is facing acute shortage of fighter jets. The IAF has already made it clear that the 36 Rafale fighter jets that are being negotiated with France are inadequate to meet its operational requirement.

Paris acknowledges India may not purchase Rafale (http://wap.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/india-may-not-buy-rafale-build-f16s-supply-to-pak-taunts-french-official-116031700447_1.html)

Paris is beginning to acknowledge the possibility that India might not buy the Rafale fighter because of sharp differences over the price, and New Delhi’s insistence on enforceable guarantees regarding the fighter’s delivery, performance and availability.

A senior French official with a close view of the on-going negotiations between New Delhi and Paris for 36 Rafale fighters told Business Standard on condition of anonymity: “If some people in the MoD (the ministry of defence) do not want to allow the Rafale deal to go through, so be it. We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia.”

Underlining the irritation at repeated US offers to set up an assembly line in India to build the American F-16 Super Viper, the French official taunted: “If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.”

[2805662]

Why would anyone in their right mind want to do business with the Indian government? I'm not sure which is worse, the Rafale saga or the 155mm artillery sags, in terms of ridiculousness.

[MPN11]

It would have been simpler in the days of the Raj :)

However, if India wants to make life difficult, that's their problem. I'm sure Pakistan and China are looking on with a degree of amusement.

[peter we]

The French are hardly innocent. They offered the F1 price in the MRCA competition, something like $85m each. They then offerered the F3 at three/four times the price ($333m). The Indians have relaised that they have been conned by a bait and switch. The hope was that the Indians would get desperate by the extended negotiations and buy at any price.
The Eurofighter was joint winner in the MRCA, it lost out by being $1m - $5m more expensive per aircraft.

[BEagle]

2805662 wrote: Why would anyone in their right mind want to do business with the Indian government? I'm not sure which is worse, the Rafale saga or the 155mm artillery sags, in terms of ridiculousness.

Not to mention the Indian A330MRTT saga, which has been dragging on now for 10 years....and they still haven't signed any deal.

[ORAC]

Indian Ministers Approve Rafale Fighter Jet Deal | Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/articles/india-approves-rafale-fighter-jet-deal-says-defense-source)

[Bigbux]

Hope they have more luck with Rafale than they have had with PAK FA.

[recceguy]

Yes, that's done - 36 aircraft as per today, options for 12 or 24.
They found back the pen.
A couple of years ago on pprune, some posters thought that the "Euro"fighter still had some chances- but India is a country facing serious challenges from neighbours, so they could not buy something unfinished and unproved.

A great day.

[peter we]

And the scandal begins

https://thewire.in/198840/rafale-deal-modi-must-use-opportunity-clear-air-transparent/

https://thewire.in/222727/six-questions-congress-challenges-jaitlie-rafale-deal/