To all those looking for a new job.

[Skydiveandy]

I like many other CP or HRD Managers receive many pilot applications every day.

I don't have time to read them all and will cull many from their initial email.

If you don't meet the minimum requirements then don't apply.. You are just proving that you are not professional and will not be joining our company.

Read the adverts very carefully. Most have very specific requirements that only a very few individuals will qualify for.

Make sure your CV is a maximum of 2 pages and includes your hours, types, current and previous aviation related employment..

We are not interested at all in the fact that you worked for McD or KFC

Only provide relevant information.

I have very limited internet with terrible download speed. If its your first contact with us, send your CV and cover letter ONLY.. I do not need to see your entire logbook or license at this point. If we are interested in you we will request these at a later date.

If you dont research us and know who we are, where and what we fly you will not get the job.

Do not send an email that has only the attachment. These get trashed immediately

Do not sent an email that outlines your entire CV

A short introduction no more than two paragraphs will suffice.

If you follow the above you have a good chance of getting your CV at least read and not immediately trashed.

Good Luck


Andrew

[Jetdream]

So what if someone includes that they worked for KFC or Pizza Hut? It shows they can hold down a job and probably didn't rely on mummy and daddy to pay for all their training. There are many different opinions on resume layout, content and length. What you consider terrible, someone else might think is good quality.

[The name is Porter]

So what if someone includes that they worked for KFC or Pizza Hut?

Well...........he's telling you he doesn't want it included. I know the bloke, he recruits pilots to turbine jobs. Pilots who want jobs would do well to listen to and comprehend what these fellas say.

[Mach E Avelli]

The OP has good advice. Time at Maccas is as irrelevant as the fact that you were in Girl Guides as a teenager.
Stick to RELEVANT aviation experience. Time on the hangar floor spinning spanners would probably be of interest, time sweeping the floor less so. Mention that at the interview, if you get that far. A succinct cv will help you get that far; four pages of bull**** will guarantee that you don't.

[Sop_Monkey]

When an application is rejected, do you people have the common courtesy to respond to the applicant? If not, why not?

[Mach E Avelli]

If the application is a) in response to an advertisement and b) addresses ALL the selection criteria, in the format requested, then it would be common courtesy to respond - even if only with a non committal letter of rejection.
But if either or both of a) and b) do not apply, Chief Pilots usually have more pressing responsibilities.

[Squawk7700]

McDonalds certainly has relevance, especially if you were a manager or team leader.

[50 50]

Dear Chief Pilots

If you would like your applications filled out in a certain font at a certain size with no more than 147 words then send out a bloody proforma and we will fill it in. Unless training has been significantly improved, mind reading is not a pre requisite.

Having given up all hope of scoring the coveted 40k a year job I'm not at all concerned about saying that the pretentious old men that infest Australian aviation contribute directly to decline in standards that they bloody whinge about. You want the best but pay nothing, and complain when people respond to your ads?

Pilots should shop around for employers, but employers should get their perfect product walking thorough the door? No effort required? How about a realistic ad..... Dear applicant, I have a couple of flogged out old warriors and a 182, I'm offering you the opportunity to operate these for bugger all money, in a poxy old Sh!ithole and you will be forever grateful.

I don't know Skydive Andy and have never applied for a job there, but f@ck me why would I?

[17pdboost]

Well, after having driven heavy truck and trailer units for 10 years, since i was 16 before i did my CPL, then moving countries and becoming a branch manager for a large rental company, then logistics manager for a mining company.
I would certainly agree, any managerial experience is important. Regardless if it's with KFC, or Joe Bloggs.

[framer]

Why do Ausi GA bosses all seem to be narcissistic tools?
Seriously , it seems at least half of them are.
It certainly is a good feeling to leave them in the dust that's for sure :ok:

[traveler1982]

Dear Chief Pilots

If you would like your applications filled out in a certain font at a certain size with no more than 147 words then send out a bloody proforma and we will fill it in. Unless training has been significantly improved, mind reading is not a pre requisite.

Having given up all hope of scoring the coveted 40k a year job I'm not at all concerned about saying that the pretentious old men that infest Australian aviation contribute directly to decline in standards that they bloody whinge about. You want the best but pay nothing, and complain when people respond to your ads?

Pilots should shop around for employers, but employers should get their perfect product walking thorough the door? No effort required? How about a realistic ad..... Dear applicant, I have a couple of flogged out old warriors and a 182, I'm offering you the opportunity to operate these for bugger all money, in a poxy old Sh!ithole and you will be forever grateful.

I don't know Skydive Andy and have never applied for a job there, but f@ck me why would I?

WOW, you are everything wrong with the kids of today! Where does this sense of entitlement come from? Crawl out from the bosom of your parents and maybe you will realize that life is not easy, you are not special! Skydive, mate your wisdom is wasted on some it seems. Unbelievable, I can only imagine what you must see sometimes.

[17pdboost]

:ok: Couldn't have said it better myself

[j3pipercub]

Funny how this 'CP' is too busy and has awful internet but has enough time to put his resume preferences on prune.

[Fred Gassit]

I saw guys like this laughing at kids CVs and binning them 20 years ago (when I was a kid).
What a shame that nothing has changed, including the wage by the sounds!
Big bunch of heros looking down your noses at kids that are barely out of school, 20 years of pprune and a CV thread must have popped up what... every couple months? Always belittling the quality of the applicants, how about a bit of empathy and encouragement, nah not my job, life's tough....

This whole forum scarcely moves from one week to the next these days, you curmudgeons just about have the place to yourselves now..:ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

I have never met him and certainly have no interest in flying for him (well past it) but I see Andy takes a serious approach to recruiting and offers genuine advice to those who want a leg up in their aviation careers.
Having been one of those pretentious old man chief pilots who has given more than a few a start in careers that went on to bigger things, I empathise with his frustration with young dumb and full of ....m types who think that because they got a licence last month someone else now needs to do all the work to recruit and train them.
If you need a pro forma you probably do not realise that part of his selection criteria is likely to involve assessing whether you have basic comprehension skills.
If you have a problem with his recruiting technique, you do not have to apply.

[vee1-rotate]

I have crossed paths with multiple aviators in my life who I have later found applied for and obtained positions, that they didn't 100% fulfill all requirements beforehand.

How is this proving to be "not professional" ?

Granted yes, a 200hr CPL guy/gal applying for the RFDS is pushing it, but to totally write people off just because they don't explicitly meet every requirement is such a stupid mind sense.

Glad not everyone doing the hiring these days thinks like you.

[jas24zzk]

Damm!!! you're lucky enough to be getting CV's that you can afford to bin most of them without even reading the applicants name...

DANG I wish I was that Lucky!

You don't have time to read a 4 page CV...that 4 pages might only be relevant aviation experience...but you need someone?

How about delegation? Your partner? The receptionist.. Your existing employee's.....you obviously have a criteria. Let some others help sift through the applications, put the criteria down on paper, and if it doesn't match then its ruled out, then have a standard rejection letter printed out...even if its printed and the name is hand written.

Dear XXXX, thank you for your application, but your CV indicates you do not meet the criteria that we seek.. We wish you well, and please feel free to apply again when you meet our requirements.

Dear ZZZZ, we feel that you are over qualified for the position available. We wish you well in your endeavours

To not reply lowers you below the level of the person that couldn't read the requirements.... the old...they don't bother replying to applications is a bigger noise than the silly muppet can't read.
-------------------------

IF you want only certain questions answered, it is not hard to create an online form, from which people can apply. You can dictate the questions, and you only get the answers you want.
I applied for a position with Suncorp as a Motor Loss Adjuster a couple of years back. The initial application was a phone call to get the address for a web based application. Once you filled that out, if you met the criteria, then you were invited to submit your full CV. It was an interesting approach.

------------------------

I ran this Advert a few years ago, in an area of high unemployment, with very limited local oppurtunites outside of growing berries.

Wanted Apprentice Panel Beater.
Minimum Year 10 Pass in Maths and English, and a knowledge of basic hand tools.
Award wage and entitlements.

Take a punt on the number of applications!

[bodybag]

What a hero this guy is. He's just so busy and important that he had to get this off his chest..
I'll bet he's still sifting through skydiving pilot resumes in 10 years.
What a loser..

[deadcut]

Andy,

While I appreciate that Dimonim has strict requirements (and says so on the advert) I recently didn't apply for an advertised position because I was about 100 hours short of one of the requirement.

Later on I found out that they took pilots with up to 500 hours less than what they were asking for. So here I am kicking myself.

[The name is Porter]

Dear applicant, I have a couple of flogged out old warriors and a 182, I'm offering you the opportunity to operate these for bugger all money, in a poxy old Sh!ithole and you will be forever grateful.

I don't know Skydive Andy and have never applied for a job there, but f@ck me why would I?

Like he said, do the research. Clapped out C182? Far from it ;)

He'd weed you out in a heartbeat!

[The name is Porter]

Wanted Apprentice Panel Beater.
Minimum Year 10 Pass in Maths and English, and a knowledge of basic hand tools.
Award wage and entitlements.

Take a punt on the number of applications!

Zero...............?

[Cessna Jockey]

Pilot A
200 hours
Cpl with MECIR
University degree in aviation (about as useful as the resumes in your bin)
Never held a job and has always lived with mum and dad

Pilot B
200 hours
Cpl with MECIR
Basic high school education
8 years experience in sales, customer service, etc.



Based on your statements, you buffoons would rather bin applicant B and call Pilot A. And you wonder why you can't find a decent pilot to fly your clapped out Cessnas? And no I am not a job seeker, I've done my time in GA and posts like this make me glad I have moved on

[The name is Porter]

What is a 'Frozen ATPL' by the way? Is it another thing Australian aviators made up to make themselves sound better? Do you get half an epaulette for that? Or a full one?

[Humbly Reserved]

I'm guessing that under CAR 5 since there was no flight test for ATPL until Part 61 (with the theory questions being the main hurdle) it became convention.

I would dare say that the notion of Frozen ATPL now no longer exists.

[hillbillybob]

going to guess Andy has had a lot of replies to his last AFAP ad that haven't met his satisfaction

[Sop_Monkey]

jas24zzk

Good post and this about sums it up.

If an outfit cant be assed to respond to an application, when looking for pilots, how are their pilots treated when they aren't wanted.

A company's pilots and engineers are their most valuable asset, apart from the aircraft.

There was a story I heard years ago, a Chief pilot who was overworked and stressed grabbed a half a stack of CV's from his desk and threw them in the bin. He was quoted as saying, "the last thing I need is someone down on their luck" or words to that effect.

Over qualified? How the hell can one be over qualified? What they really mean is they wont pay for experienced people, or scared their jobs maybe under threat to someone with a damned sight more experience than them. I was no threat to anyone. Never again after 2 "management" positions. It's a 24/7 job most of the time and the extra money just ain't worth it. I did consider it again but wanted 35% salary increase over line flying and nothing less. That's what you need to compensate for the BS.

[Skydiveandy]

Lets clarify some points for those that have no idea what they are talking about..

We have 4 Cessna Caravans, 3 of them were brand new when they arrived here the 4th had 2000 hours when we picked it up..

We have 10 further C208B EX on order with Cessna

They are all G1000 with most of the bells and whistles.

We also have a PAC750, DHC-6/300, 4 x AS350 Squirrels and a KA32 Kamov Helicopter.

Yes for a change i am not in the jungle where i spend 90% of my year, I am lucky enough to be in a major city for a change unfortunately only for 5 days.

Our pay rates are far beyond any GA company in Australia and some of the best in this country.

I dont see too many Aussie GA operators paying net US$4000 to US$6000 per month for flying a Caravan or PAC750

DEADCUT we had taken a few with lesser hours but these were guys we had offered positions too long before the most recent adverts. We will continue to take those we offered positions to prior to the current requirements but that will take time.

vee1-rotate - if you read our add you would have seen it clearly states do not apply if you dont meet the minimums. We have got the odd email from people that have said "I am only a few hours short of meeting your requirements. Would you prefer i wait until next time or can i send you my CV".. Our reply to most of those was to send them through and yes we employed one after he went home for a few months and got the hours we needed.

17pdboost - with the experience you listed i would assume you weren't 16 or 17 when you did it and would welcome that sort of information.

Sop_Monkey - 99% of the time we do reply to all emails, most of them "thanking them for sending their CVs but unfortunately you do not meet our minimum requirements". Unfortunately those emails can sit in my outbox for weeks at a time waiting for some semblance or reasonable internet.

Jetdream (http://www.pprune.org/members/310734-jetdream) - Seriously i dont care who paid for their training, to be crystal clear i paid for all of my own training.

Decoder - We are not advertising for pilots looking for their first job, i thought that would be obvious from our STRICT MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS.

50/50 - Wow... Luckily we are not offering A$40k and we dont fly clapped out 182s, we fly new G1000 Turbine Caravans into some of the most challenging airstrips in the world.. Our Junior Captains are taking home a pay equivalent to getting A$82K and our Senior Line Captains are taking home A$133K based on the current exchange rates.

How many pilots in GA with 1500 hours are getting paid A$82K as a line pilot as soon as theyre checked to line.. I am sure their are a few but not many.

And seriously I would love to hear from those with 2000 - 2500 hours flying single engine aircraft in Australia earning A$133K

As well as our fair and reasonable pay scale while our pilots are on tour they have meals and accommodation provided so for 6 weeks every 2 months they are spending very little money.

As Mach E Avelli (http://www.pprune.org/members/211776-mach-e-avelli) put it the reason of the original post is to educate those wanting to apply. If you dont want to take our suggestions that's your choice.

megle2 (http://www.pprune.org/members/56568-megle2) - Maybe a few more reds are in order.

FYI - Our add clearly states we are not hiring copilots. Every day we receive at least 10 CV's from 150-200 hour pilots who have never flown outside of their flight schools. Some of these people "Tell Us" they dont need the minimum hours because of their superior skills.

Following is an example of the emails we get every day

-----------------------------------------------------------

My name is XXXXXX ,I´m Airbus 320 pilot with recent experience 230 hours in XYZ Express and I have recently done 34 hours in Air XYZ Centre Simulator and 4 hours in C.A.E Madrid.

I have experience in C206 in Africa..I love this fligths..

Enclosed is my CV .
I´m available to work immediately.

---------------------------------------------------

This guys CV shows a total of 445 hours and yes he got a nice reply telling him he doesnt meet our minimum requirements. That is one of 14 emails tonight not meeting our requirements. Another guy 69 years old who i would sincerely love to have his experience with us, but legally we cant take him, hence our advert clearly states maximum 60 years old.

We may not be the biggest or best place to work but most of our guys and girls enjoy the lifestyle. We all enjoy flying in some of the most beautiful and remote parts of the world and we get paid fairly well.

[Skydiveandy]

You hit the nail on the head..

Just today i have received over 20 CV's with none of them meeting the requirements.

I dont mean a few hours short, I mean 500-1300 hours short of total time or zero time on type.

I have much better things to be doing than sifting through and replying to people that either don't take the time to fully read our add or just dont care.


Andy

[Checkerboard]

Andrew- I retract my comments on you being a prat. I just think your first post came across as very self righteous. All I ask of you is when you deal with these young and inexperienced people remember we have all be in that situation at some time, don't forget where you came from yourself and where and how you started.

[FoolCorsePich]

I think it is worth commending Andy, as an employer coming out and giving feedback to the wider pilot community. It's not something you see very often.

Naturally there are going to be people thinking that the industry owes them something and when they get a rejection or god forbid hear nothing back, whilst not even meeting the requirements, they have a tantrum.

Had this latest job ad been for a P750 driver with the same hour requirement I would have been applying.

[Tankengine]

When I was a CP a century or so ago we never advertised so had no set criteria.
We had a couple of full time pilots in addition to myself and a couple of (very) casuals we would use if needed.
We got a dozen or more CVs a week even though we would never have needed any new pilots that someone at the organisation didn't know personally.
I am sorry to say I never often read the CVs and just binned them.
;)

[SIUYA]

Strewth...

What's a DHC-6/300 ?

Are you serious? :ugh:

[wantobe]

Hey Andy,

I see your minimum requirements for the Captains position posted on the ad.

May I ask what requirements you guys look for when hiring first officers?
And do you usually advertise for first officers or expect people to show up?


cheers.

[deadcut]

When I was a CP a century or so ago we never advertised so had no set criteria.
We had a couple of full time pilots in addition to myself and a couple of (very) casuals we would use if needed.
We got a dozen or more CVs a week even though we would never have needed any new pilots that someone at the organisation didn't know personally.
I am sorry to say I never often read the CVs and just binned them.
;)


Yea, you sound real sorry. Give yourself a pat on the back while you're at it.

[Aussie Bob]

Ok, so the perfect application arrives, a Skype interview and a background check proves the person is all they say they are: Who pays for the face to face interview and relocation?

Am I wrong in expecting it to be the employer?

Dear applicant, I have a couple of flogged out old warriors and a 182, I'm offering you the opportunity to operate these for bugger all money, in a poxy old Sh!ithole and you will be forever grateful.
I KNOW this is not Andy, but I can't help but think it is the best line on this thread. I know these types, they exist in this industry and often offer under award pay for the favour of providing a start. In desperation the people "working" for them apply for anything, just wanting out and a decent job. Decent jobs in GA seem to be dwindling.

[Metro man]

I've got jobs for which I didn't quite meet the minimum requirements simply because there was no one suitable who did. Once the employer realised he needed to relax the requirements a bit I came into the frame.

Obviously it's no use applying for a Saab 340 Captains job with 1000 hours total but if you are reasonably close to the minimums you could get lucky.

[Pinky the pilot]

Skydiveandy has brought up some very good points actually, because it reminds me of some of the resumes that used to land on the Boss's desk (approximately three per week!:eek:) at Simbu Aviation all those years ago.

I remember one morning Richard (God rest his soul) handing me the latest one to arrive and asking me what I thought of it. From memory it ran to somewhere near 6 pages and featured a photograph of a 747 on takeoff on the front page.:ooh:

It went on to list where the applicant was born, raised, educated; Primary and Secondary, where he worked after leaving school, the Flying School where he did his training, interests outside Flying, hobbies etc etc.

By the time I reached the last page I must have been rolling my eyes as Richard mentioned that I should file it in the 'circular file' once I'd finished reading it, adding that he had already briefly perused it himself and no longer required it.

However, he had made a note of the Applicants address as he always replied to them, mostly with a standard form letter stating that their experience fell below the required minimums if they indeed did. Otherwise they got a 'you will be kept on file for a month' letter.

The point is that the whole resume was a huge overkill! Richard once told me that a single page resume with a single page covering letter was all he required! And also that if they didn't already have the minimums, which for him was 1000hrTT, MEIFR and preferably a bit of remote area experience, then they should not bother sending anything!:=

There was another one which arrived a bit later where the applicant easily had the minimums and possibly would have scored a job with Simbu but the resume and covering letter were full of mis-spellings and poor grammar.:=

That's another story.

[50 50]

I am well aware that Andy does not operate flogged out old aircraft. I didn't say he did. However in order to meet the minimums of decent operators, that is the type of crap people have to survive on.

Anyone that thinks I still suckle on my parents teat has not read any of my previous posts. Besides how hard is it to hit a delete button? I will return to my rock now lest I draw the wrath of further strangers on the Internet.

[Aussie Bob]

You certainly didn't draw my wrath 50 50, I loved your post and realised straight away your point. I got it, others didn't. No need to return to the rock!

[The name is Porter]

Thing is 50 50, you and your buddy's should have done the research before you spent the coin on a pilot's licence. There's only one group of people that can change pilot remuneration. There's an award, an employer must pay the award. If they're allowed to get away with not paying the award who's responsible? I'm guessing it's whomever's flying 'clapped out C182's' on their way up the greasy pole.

[50 50]

Thanks Bob I appreciate it. It might surprise traveller1982 that we are both the same age. But if I am the cause of everything wrong with kids today then I most humbly apologise, although I can't see how it's my fault. Twit.

Porter, I didn't have any buddies, and that must be the most disregarded award in Australia.

[Skydiveandy]

Thanks for the message..

In the past we had advertised for first officers and have employed a number. From those adverts long ago we still have some that we will take over time if they still want the positions as they become available.

We will not be advertising again in the foreseeable future for copilots as the regulator and immigration departments are wanting to see us employ more local lads.

I am afraid the only way of getting a position with us in 2015 / 2016 would be as a Captain with the experience listed in the adverts.

Andy

[The name is Porter]

50 50 I'm sure you had buddy's, it's disregarded by whom?

Not accusing you, but it's pilots that are disregarding the award. It would have to be paid if pilots demanded it. I don't see how pilots can complain about sh!t money flying clapped out aircraft for **** money when you're 'doing it'

[Skydiveandy]

50 50 I am certainly with you when you talk about the operators that do exploit the newbie..

I am also totally against any operator that doesnt pay the minimum award. Its a legal requirement. Any operator not meeting their legal obligations regarding payroll minimums, super etc etc needs their butts kicked.

Any pilot accepting these terms are doing themselves and the industry a disservice.


Andy

[Aussie Bob]

What's your point Porter, this thread is about Andy's post. Most on this thread have at some stage worked for less than the award.

[haughtney1]

Fair dues Andy, I'm glad you clarified your initial post as just like Checkers I read it and thought "that's a bit strong mate", but I refrained from from giving you both barrels as it did just enter my mind that your message was one that's hard to convey via the Internet.
Having said that, when I was job hunting in the UK in the late 1990's it was an open secret that the CV format you speak about in terms of relevant experience was comprised of 1 x A4 sheet..and it got me my first job (on a Van no less!) because the CP was in exactly the same position as you describe..scarily so in fact.
To all and sundry..its sometimes worth remembering that even in the midst of a rant..there's some good Gen to be had:ok:
Goodluck Andy, if I was 15 years younger..lighter of kids, wife, mortgage...I might've liked going back and adding to my 800hrs of Van time :8

[The name is Porter]

Aussie, the point is a bloke got on here and gave a bit of advice on applying for a job, then a stack of people replied to him, whinging about flying pieces of **** for below award money. He's actually advertising for jobs well above any award job you could get in Australia.

I know the bloke who started the thread, we were working the same patch when he was in Aus. I can tell you, he worked his arse off to get to the position he's in now. He took the same path that most of the whinging has come from, except he didn't whinge. He's probably had the same knock backs that everyone else has had.

For chrissakes, stop whinging about below award money. Either accept it and shut up, or don't accept it.

[wantobe]

Cheers Andy for taking the time to reply.

Appreciated :ok:

[jas24zzk]

Quote:
Wanted Apprentice Panel Beater.
Minimum Year 10 Pass in Maths and English, and a knowledge of basic hand tools.
Award wage and entitlements.

Take a punt on the number of applications!
Zero...............?

Actually 2...it took 3 months tho.
1 wanted the Job, the other wanted his dole form signed.
Needless to say my actions on both.

Luckily the Kid that wanted the job, was actually interested an passionate about it.

[Aussie Bob]

Aussie, the point is a bloke got on here and gave a bit of advice on applying for a job, then a stack of people replied to him, whinging about flying pieces of **** for below award money. He's actually advertising for jobs well above any award job you could get in Australia.

I know all that Porter but this is an internet forum, not a rational debate.

[The name is Porter]

I know all that Porter but this is an internet forum, not a rational debate.

lol, classic!

POTY

[Metro man]

I responded to a job advert in Fridays Australian for which I didn't quite have the requirements and initially had no response, the following week the advert was repeated. The week after that I was invited for an interview. I was employed and spent the next seven years there gaining a jet endorsement and turbo prop command. When I moved on it was into the right seat of an airliner followed by a reasonably quick upgrade.

I now get paid the same money for coming into work on a day off as I did in a week working for the scum bag bush operator I was employed by when I responded to the advert.

To quote an American recruitment manager:

"I can give a little if the applicant is short on multi engine time, or doesn't have any heavy time but I will not give one inch to someone who does not have a good attitude."

[pithblot]

Its good advice to meet the requirements and, as rule, don't waffle on about flipping burgers (or that you ride a Harley). Here is an 'exception that proves the rule'. (http://propilotmag.com/archives/2012/December%2012/A2_McDonalds_p1.html)



From the link,
A first officer should have 1500 hrs and 500 in multiengine jets. These minimums are not absolute—for Kostas, finding a candidate whose ethics and personality fit the department is more important than total hours in a log book.

"We can teach people to fly our way," he says. "It's much harder to teach someone the respect and caring attitude they need to succeed in this flight department."

[traveler1982]

50 50

Doesn't matter if you are aged 20 or 50 your attitude towards having to fly a

"couple of flogged out old warriors and a 182, I'm offering you the opportunity to operate these for bugger all money, in a poxy old Sh!ithole"

is indicative of someone who has never worked hard for anything in his life and thinks he is entitled to just walk into the dream job straight away. I know plenty of guys who would give their left nut for an opportunity to work hard, get some experience and move on up the ladder and build a career. In any profession you have to start at the bottom and work hard to get to the top (unless mum and dad can buy your way to the top). But this seems lost on "the kids of today". Hey but maybe this "Twit" has the wrong work ethic.

[Aussie Bob]

"couple of flogged out old warriors and a 182, I'm offering you the opportunity to operate these for bugger all money, in a poxy old Sh!ithole" Traveler, I think you are missing the point. After 30 years of flying I admit, I still operate flogged out old aeroplanes on the odd occasion and love it. I really couldn't be happier than when I line up an old Cessna on a bush strip or wilderness river.

The point is, some employers think it is they that are doing the favour when they put you in the drivers seat. Some even think you should do it for nothing. It has to work both ways. No one is doing me a favour when they offer me these things to fly.

[50 50]

Traveller, I have no idea what your work ethic is like, nor do you mine. I have seen this "I'm the only one that works hard" attitude before. Everyone must have been gifted their license and paid for it with fairy dust! It's the same as thinking everyone bigger than you in the gym must be on steroids.

You can give your left nut to whoever you want but after 100k plus of licences endorsements and flying experience I value my investment more than being exploited for 20 bucks an hour. By the way, I write this as I sit at work on a Sunday instead of being home with my family. Gee, I'm so glad I've never had to work for anything. My twit comment stands.

[eternity]

50 50,


I understand your point about not wanting to get exploited after spending 100+k on licence etc......mate I really do

But please remember that the path to a well paid pilot job is a TWO step process. Licence....then experience.

First step....invest 100+k on licences etc.

Step Two....accept that you will initially have to work for $20 an hour (or even less) to get the experience. That's the way that it is. Do your job, keep your head down, fly under the radar....then when the next opportunity comes up, jump at it. Each job your are slowly gaining more and more experience.
Then you will find that each new job you get allows you to fly better machines for more money

The first low paying jobs with bad conditions aren't for life mate, only a short amount of time to get some experience.

Sadly.....the guys that insisted on not accepting low paying/bad condition jobs....well they got left behind.

[Clare Prop]

Thing is some people (or their parents) make that investment without doing the research into what sort of return they will get on that investment in the early stages and then whinge about it.

Some people get offered a starter job for below award wages, agree to it, :ugh: shake hands on it...and then whinge about it. :ugh::ugh:

I suppose these whingers fell for the scam that if they learn to fly at school "x" they are guaranteed a job with Qantas as soon as they get their licence as "there is a worldwide shortage of pilots" blah blah blah

Some people have the sense and self esteem to walk away from a potentially exploitative situation like that without taking that job, get on with their careers and recognise the importance of keeping ears open, mouth shut and networking.

[Virtually There]

Do your job, keep your head down, fly under the radar....then when the next opportunity comes up, jump at it.
Thus beginneth and endeth the perpetual cycle.

How much do GA employers spend advertising and/or training up new pilots . . . only to have to do it all again every six to 12 months?

Pilots exploit employers as much as employers exploit pilots - it's a vicious cycle.

And let's face it, pilots aren't averse to exploiting each other, either, if it means getting a leg-up.

It's every man for himself in this industry - at least to some extent - and that's the crux of the issue, IMO.

I know we don't want to see ourselves in that light, but let's be honest. You either play the game or you get . . . . . . left behind.

[GTang]

I did some really good flying towing gliders in a Pawnee after I got my PPL. Hours were slow, it's about 0.2 a launch, and I got a few hundred hours over a few years but it was great flying, all stick and rudder. I wish I had kept flying for them maybe a few days a month but it got too busy with another job. Maybe one day I'll get back into it.

When I mentioned it to a another pilot and he heard it was unpaid volunteer work, I got one of those rants about the industry going down the drain, everybody not paying award, me being taken advantage of etc...

Sometimes I wonder if gliding clubs get these people knocking on the door all the time and asking for award wages when they have a full roster of tug pilots that are often passionate glider pilots themselves too and a member of the club :ugh::ugh:

[Arnold E]

Interesting post GTang, when I started building my RV I thought that I would stay current by towing gliders ( I started flying gliders ) but I found that I was on the end of quite a long que, so it never happened. Wish it did, coz now I have finished the aeroplane but am not current, so there you go, where to from here?

[Horatio Leafblower]

How much do GA employers spend advertising and/or training up new pilots . . . only to have to do it all again every six to 12 months?


I estimate about $17500, plus endorsement training.

...includes wages/time taken to complete DG and HF training, CAO 20:11, etc AND the cost of providing the course PLUS the cost of base checks, line checks and Renewals.

When you give people a start, give them all the training, do it all properly and they promise to stay for [x] months, then f*ck off saying "sorry but I gotta do whats best for my career"... :ugh:

[Virtually There]

So almost $340 a week over 12 months. That would go some way to promoting a bit of loyalty, wouldn't it?

I'll refrain from using the chicken and egg analogy, as neither are very good at flying. :p

[GTang]

Interesting post GTang, when I started building my RV I thought that I would stay current by towing gliders ( I started flying gliders ) but I found that I was on the end of quite a long que, so it never happened. Wish it did, coz now I have finished the aeroplane but am not current, so there you go, where to from here?

Sent you a pm :)

[pilotchute]

Anyone want to see an example of the "simple CV" that Andy is talking about?

[Trojan1981]

Hi Andy,

Good post, I am often surprised at what passes for a resume, and not just in aviation. I forwarded a friend's resume to my company's HR division recently, but before I did I had to spend hours cleaning it up. I cut pages out, corrected spelling etc. then sent it back to him for approval. Ordinarily I wouldn't bother, but I know the standard of his work well. This was a resume from a guy with more than a decade and thousands of hours of military and civilian flying experience.

On the flip side, I understand the frustration contained in 50 50's post. The industry is full of dodgy operators and wankers; it's a minefield. I was lucky, I got the first flying job I applied for. It was a government job and starting, first-year, base salary was $50k. The next one paid $160k, and it's not an airline. This didn't happen by accident, however, I chose carefully. I had offers to work for operators who wanted me to pay for endorsements and work for free. Others who I decided against working for within seconds of speaking to the chief pilot. Regardless, I was always prepared to fly casually for fun and work at other jobs if I had to; it was always a better option than getting flogged and struggling in a flying job I didn't enjoy.

Thanks for posting your honest opinion Andy. The fact that you've done this, and taken the time to address the concerns of other posters indicates that you are one of the good guys.

[Oakape]

Perhaps some should give those trying to start out in the industry a break & provide some structured information on aviation resumes, instead of just giving people a hard time. Sure there are some who are just lazy & those who have the modern day, young person's sense of entitlement, but others are genuine.

Although things might have changed in recent years, I was never taught how to write a resume. I got some books on the subject & then ended up going to a company that specialized in writing resumes. And what they did up for me obviously wouldn't be acceptable for aviation, going by the posts on this thread. The information out there is more mainstream & not necessarily relevant for more specialized industries such as aviation.

Perhaps being a little more constructive rather than destructive would benefit everyone more.

[mickjoebill]

My 18 yr old daughter hand wrote a letter to a CEO of a manufacturing company and scored a chat and tour of the company with him last week.
She had innovative product ideas and wasnt after a job per se.
CEO said they get hundreds of requests on facebook but "no one hand writes a letter", which impressed him.

Knowing how and who to impress is key especially if you can't yet tick all the boxes.

Mickjoebill

[The name is Porter]

On the flip side, I understand the frustration contained in 50 50's post. The industry is full of dodgy operators and wankers; it's a minefield. I was lucky, I got the first flying job I applied for. It was a government job and starting, first-year, base salary was $50k. The next one paid $160k, and it's not an airline. This didn't happen by accident, however, I chose carefully. I had offers to work for operators who wanted me to pay for endorsements and work for free. Others who I decided against working for within seconds of speaking to the chief pilot. Regardless, I was always prepared to fly casually for fun and work at other jobs if I had to; it was always a better option than getting flogged and struggling in a flying job I didn't enjoy.

My bolding, perhaps the industry wouldn't be in the mess it's in if more people made these choices.

[Tankengine]

Oakape,
Perhaps the flying school which has just milked you for $100K+ could advise on resume writing.:hmm:

[Squawk7700]

Google has a wealth of resources for preparing a professional resume. If you can't work it out from there, perhaps you should be digging trenches for a living. If I owned an aircraft worth millions of dollars that had complex systems, up to date avionics and turbine engines, I'd want someone piloting it that is capable of preparing their own resume.

How hard can it be to write down a total time of 150 hours sausage factory anyway?

[Pinky the pilot]

Perhaps the flying school which has just milked you for $100K+ could advise on resume writing

Interesting comment Tankengine, because that was exactly what the owner/operator of the Flying School where I did all of my flying training used to do, back in the early 1980s.

And his opinion on what is required corresponded precisely with the requirements expressed by my old Boss in PNG, as I mentioned in post# 40

[50 50]

Resume writing won't help much. Every operator I have spoken to, and that is just about everyone, has said the same thing. "Sorry we don't need any more staff". It's not about qualifications or attitude, or how much Mummy and Daddy can afford, it's simply there is no movement in the industry. If nobody at the top is hiring, nobody at the bottom is moving.

The head down bum up advice is great, but I can't even score a crap job let alone a good one. It's been over 2 years since my last paid (flying) work and the answer stays the same. "Even if you'd do it for free I can't take the work off my guys". I totally understand that, nor should you. So where does that leave everyone else?

I looked into glider towing as well, I was basically told you have to be the son of the guy already doing it, and wait for Dad to die.

[Skydiveandy]

This is where you are wrong.

A well written succinct resume will get you past stage 1 (circular filing cabinet).

We have taken on 10 new pilots so far in 2015 with many more to come. I know of a particular company in WA that has taken a number of newbies to fill the void of pilots heading our way.

There is movement, maybe not a lot but its there.

From an International standpoint, things are beginning to pick up at the high end therefore opening positions at the bottom and so the cycle continues.

Good Luck with your search

Andy

[Aussie Bob]

Skydiving perhaps? I really feel sorry for folks trying to get a start in this industry but I do see the odd one who simply lucks in wherever they go. No real advice 50 50 sorry.

BTW I don't really know what a resume is apart from the fact I see a few job applications across my desk. Never written one, never had one, never needed one. Must be a generational thing. I wouldn't know a good one from a bad one and at this stage in life I ain't learning.

[Skydiveandy]

My friend that is one of the best things i have heard in a very long time.

I spent a number of years working in a flying school where they would produce well trained CPL's but when it came to assisting them in any way after they passed their final flight tests the school really didn't want to know them.

After sales service to say the least was disgusting unless there was a dollar to be made.

This is certainly an area within the flight training environment that could be improved.

How to prepare a CV, Interview techniques, landing that first job.. Seriously how much time would it take, considering the school has just taken A$100K from you.

I could see some good schools like GlenB taking this on, but i can also see others wanting to charge a fortune.

[SIUYA]

Andy,

I have to say, I really admire your willingness to help job seekers. :D:D

I also have to say, like Squawk7700, Google has some pretty good examples for pilot CVs.

A search based on 'pilot resume examples' turned up at first result some really good examples - the one of Jonas Adelini's was a 'cracker' - it's at Curriculum Vitae and Resume Example for Pilots-Latest Pilot Jobs (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/site/mypage/id/curriculum-vitae-example.html)

Everything an employer needs to know, and in a format that I'd suggest that Andy might just approve of. :8

50 50 .... I'm not too sure where you are looking (or perhaps AREN'T looking), but there's definitely jobs advertised on the AFAP website. And I know for a fact that there are jobs going if you decide to get adventurous and look further afield than Australia - and 'No', they aren't PTF (pay-to-fly) jobs either.

I'm fortunate in that I don't have to look for a job these days, but it wasn't always that way, and it certainly hasn't changed in the time I've been involved in the industry 50 50, so you just need to keep at it. :=

[SIUYA]

Pilot58...

Do us all a BIG favour and give up while you're behind.

OK?

:rolleyes:

[plucka]

G'Day Andy (and the other employers on here),
I haven't seen your Ad so I'm not sure of your prerequisites, (past the job hunting stage now), however I have met quite a few people looking for their first job who reckon they need 10hrs of 200 series Cessna time. I have a 185 available for hire (with safety pilot) that no one seems interested in because it's not a 200 series.
Personally I would be more impressed with 185 time than 206 time in a resume if I was an employer.
Just wondering what you and the others thought that are watching this thread?

Cheers:ok:

[Aussie Bob]

If you can fly a 185 you can certainly fly a 206 but not necessarily vice versa!

I am past the job hunting stage too and will be shortly past the employer stage as well but I would certainly count 185 time ahead of 206 time. A tail wheel endo is also a big plus even though we don't operate any. Trouble is most newby's don't even know what a 185 is, let alone know how well they fly. Sadly most are cash strapped and another endorsement is barrier even though 10 hours should easily cover it.

Your problem is if you hire a 185 to a newby you are a brave man indeed and if a safety pilot is aboard it is not quality solo time.

[Mach E Avelli]

Plucks, you are a brave man letting any of the current crop of newbies any where near your 185! Most of them can't do a proper crosswind landing in a Cherokee.
But as a former employer who understands these things, yes in my book 10 hours of 185 circuits would equate to 1000 hours of scenics in a 200 series.
Problem is neither insurance companies nor HR get this and I dare say some of the younger chief pilots out there would not, either.

[plucka]

Disappointing, but I'm sure fair points.
I am actually waiting for our beloved regulator to approve me as an Ag. Instructor (even though they have already approved the 141 school, the syllabus and the Ops manual, which has me listed as an instructor.... but that's a whole other thread). In the meantime, I thought hiring out the aircraft was a good idea, and a way I may be able to give a little back to the industry...... Without a safety pilot though, the insurance was outrageous. Or maybe not if the standard is as low as you say Mach.

Thanks for the replies.
Cheers:ok:

[Duck Pilot]

You really need a safety pilot mate, unless you are totally satisfied.
Mach is correct IMHO. The standard is very low out their amongst low hour pilots, unless it's documented and confirmed.

[Aussie Bob]

I am not commenting on the standards, but from what I have seen, newby's desperately need command time. Real decision making command time.

[Skydiveandy]

Plucka there is no doubt you are right. 185 time can be golden especially around here. We dont have any Porters here but a number of other operators do and some of them start the new guys on the 185 for a few hours before progressing to the porter.

For us, with or without a safety pilot providing the pilot is left seat and actually doing the flying then we have no issue with that. It would certainly become obvious during their check flight if they have the stick and rudder skills.

For us and many operators the money spent on an initial multi rating would be much better spent on the 185 and some quality hours, mostly circuits.

Upgrade the SEIFR to a multi IFR at a later time when your actually getting paid. I cant think of many operators that will hire a 200 hours newbie straight into a multi..

Bob is right in regards to real world decision making skills but that's something we train them for.

Just my 2 cents worth though..


Andy

[plucka]

Cheers Andy.
Thanks for the replies.
Unethical to advertise here but feel free to PM me if anyone is looking for some 185 time to make their resume stand out from the masses.

Cheers:ok:

[romeocharlie]

A few points... Firstly, I'm not an expert.

However, I think 10 years in GA allows me a little poetic licence in this department. We are discussing, for the most part, GA and resume's in Australia or close enough to it. Not Europe or the USA, this is in an Aussie forum. Unless you have spent a considerable amount of time in GA here, and understand what is roughly required from operators/pilots here, then feel free to take your uneducated opinion to another part of the worldly forums (I'm looking at you Porter, a Frozen ATPL was a requirement at some stage for all the major airlines, and if you don't know what one was, google it. If you did spend any time in GA here I retract my harsh words). Also 'accepting' conditions runs all the way up to the top - refer to the latest EBA threads on here.

On topic - people do get it fairly wrong, but older books like Irv Jasinski's 'Airline Pilot Interviews' encourage people to do it the wrong way (good publication though :ok:). I just helped to correct someone's resume yesterday and he removed all the crap and condensed it to 1 page.

Andy, I see your frustration but agree your first post may have come off a little harsh. GAM used to get over 50 resume's a week, if not more - and that's not even posting an ad on AFAP. They have 2 operations controllers working their ar:mad: off (generally CPL holders hoping for a start at some stage) and it's easy to say delegate the duty of replying to every single resume, but that would require almost hiring someone just to reply to the emails.

It's also not science of the rocket. 1 page, hours, types (not C152,C152s, C152R), contact details, employment history and referees. Attached to something that says Greetings, my name is bloggs, I have 2000 hours, based in blah and would relish the opportunity to work for your company.

Keep at it lads, it's a long road at times but it'll get better.

Any other questions, I'm happy to answer on PM

Ryan Chase

[The name is Porter]

(I'm looking at you Porter, a Frozen ATPL was a requirement at some stage for all the major airlines, and if you don't know what one was, google it.

You're looking at me? Good for you.

I'm Australian and have worked most of my career here. If you read my post I mentioned that I worked in the same part of the industry when Andy was in Oz. You do know he's not advertising for pilots in Australia? I don't spend the majority of my time googling.

[romeocharlie]

Porter, just what you posted about the ATPL's, and your current location spelled otherwise. I'm sorry for having a stab, and take it all back. Also I may spend a little too much time googling, aaaaand I get defensive.

:ouch::ouch:

[Skydiveandy]

Remeocharlie -

Yes you maybe right, it may have sounded harsh but i will give you an example of the hard reality.

I type this message sitting in an Internet Cafe in Nabire Papua because our new mess doesn't have internet YET, no 3G no SMS and no mobile phone signal.

Last night it took over 6 hours to download my emails and longer to send any form or reply which didnt leave my laptop until late this afternoon. I had to do this all at a different mess and leave my laptop their overnight.

We are very strict for sure but I have my reasons. The emails from yesterday were mostly text with half a dozen CVs with their associated attachments. but in total 32 emails and that was a quiet day.

I havent even been able to download todays email headers yet so i have no idea how many are waiting..

Welcome to working in Papua..

Andy

[jas24zzk]

Andy,

Keep in mind what I am about to say is in no way intended to be critical, merely suggestive to overcome to the technological challenges your location throws up.

With the internet you have a lot of power in what you receive.
Your domain will allow you multiple email addresses. Set up one that is [email protected] want to fly for you....or similar.
You can set it that that is only ever downloaded to the office.

You can configure your email client to only check that mailbox when the office is actually closed.

If you really want, you can set your server or email client to automatically bin mails based on subject line.... i.e i want to work for you....or you can nut it down even further that it picks out keywords in the email and rejects on your behalf.

You need an IT guy to develop it for you

[wantobe]

Or you can have a simple size rejection on your email server. Emails larger than a certain size will just bounce back to the sender.

A one page resume with a small cover letter is only 30kB's or so.

[neville_nobody]

Emoloyers should stick by their own guidelines too. Don't tell everybody you need 2000 hours then go hire your mate/someelses mate/some chick you pulled last week with 500 hours. Nothing used to annoy me more than being told I wasnt experienced enough then 6 months later meeting some muppet who got a job there with less than 'minimums'.

All that does is drive the whole problem you are on here complaining about. Where people just ignore you and apply anyway

[Aussie Bob]

A one page resume with a small cover letter is only 30kB's or so.

If you read his ad, he wants a bit more than that :)

[Horatio Leafblower]

Don't tell everybody you need 2000 hours then go hire your mate/someelses mate/some chick you pulled last week with 500 hours.

Sometimes the person with 2000 hours is less attractive than the person with less (logbook) experience but broader life experience, or a specific set of skills (LAME/AME, IT, Marketing, time on type).

...sometimes the 2000 hour candidate has changed jobs every 3-6 months and has provided as referee ANYONE except their previous chief pilots.... :suspect: :hmm: :rolleyes:

(Not saying any of the above apply to Neville Nobody!)

[Skydiveandy]

Now Jas you may have just solved a lot of my issues.

I will have to think long and hard on that one as I tend to get stuck out here months at a time.

But your ideas have a lot of merit

I will have a chat to our IT guru in Jakarta when i am there next..

Thanks for the suggestion,

Andy

[jas24zzk]

Andy,
If you are using an IT guru, then you can take it even further.
You could set up a job application form online, that a potential employee fills out.. so many options here, it almost boundless..

A job app form can be put to use to be almost fully automated.......i say almost fully automated because at some point you need to review the application and perhaps interview the applicant.

But you can automate it enough that applicants that don't have your minimums are actually sent a rejection email...or even taken to a page that tells them then and there they don't meet the criteria...you don't even have to tell people what the criteria is.

I'm no computer guru, but even I can code the basic framework for this..it would take me about 2 weeks part time. Knowing what needs to be done, if I was a guru working full time on it, i'd expect to see something to present to the client in 2 days maximum.
-------------

I applied to a major insurer not so long ago for a position, and the first 3 interview stages were online and automated. No CV/Resume was submitted until stage 5, which was the first face to face.

[Squawk7700]

This is a very good idea for such situations. A little like buying an insurance policy for your car. It guarantees a consistent format and you could even define drop-down boxes for hours flown (eg 150-300, 301-500, etc. Checkboxes for endorsements and aircraft type flown and minimal 'comments' space. You then get back to them for round two.

I noticed a few years back when receiving applications they frequently come from the same people overseas and often years apart with the same resume. One guy with an email tigerheart or similarl seemed to apply to all our jobs over a number of years.

[Squawk7700]

Thinking a little more about this if you were on a budget you could use survey monkey or similar and you could customize the flow of the questions depending on what they answer

You could also respond to all applicants requesting that the all full out the survey.

[glenb]

I'm not a frequent employer but I do get a lot of CVs across my desk. Mine might be a bit of a different view than many, but. I don't care too much if its long or short. I appreciate that every applicant is submitting what they think is best. After all, they are trying to get them self a first job. My suggestion is directed more so, at guys and gals trying to get a start, and not actually responding to advertised criteria. I think a photo helps me recollect the applicant, and that's quite important if you've made a good impression and some time has passed. To be perfectly honest, most can comfortably do the "flying" job. I do respect that previous work experience such as Maccas, KFC, etc. it gives me an indication of how the flying training was perhaps funded. Previous work experience lets me know that the candidate is more likely to demonstrate a sense of ownership in the business, and demonstrate more initiative. I've experienced it repeatedly. If you've got some other skill, sparky, computers, carpentry etc., get it on there. Small Business owners appreciate that type of support. Don't just email a CV if at all possible. Much better to pop in, chat to the CP/CFI. Its hard to leave a memorable impression off a CV alone. Whatever happens folks. Be prepared to put a couple of years into it if you have to. Don't give up. It does work out. If your truly convinced that you can make a contribution, and don't give up, you will succeed. unfortunately your into it at a tough time, where CP/CFIs are under a lot of pressure, and there's not a lot of growth. Time and money are tight. There is light at the end of the tunnel and I don't think its a locomotive. Ive seen it for decades, it always works out OK!

[C.T.G.]

Hundreds of hours studying, thousands of dollars spent on schools, licences, exams etc and it comes down to tools like this who cant be bothered reading a few lines on a resume.

These clowns are the ones in charge of our destinies :ugh: :mad:

[Flying Bear]

That's right, C.T.G.

You can throw all the money at it you like, but if your attitude sucks and you aren't prepared to make the effort that others are, then you'll most likely not get a run.

In the early phase of a pilot career, it is less about your technical proficiency (because it is (generally) fair to say that all newly graduated CPLs are at or about the same technical level) and more about whether you will make the effort to stand out from the competition - yes, it is a competition, just ask all the unemployed pilots hanging around Darwin, Broome, etc. Most CP are looking for someone who will value add to their organisation - that is, someone who will make their life a bit easier, not just another junior pilot full of self-entitlement. This may not be you, but understand the pool of newbies is choking with them.

One won't make the right impression by sucking up or offering to work for free, if I have to outline the specifics, one probably isn't ready...

When you get to be a CP, feel free to change the world for the better and give everyone who comes through your door, or who mails a resume, a job. Until then, try and understand the culture and if you want to succeed work with it.

More broadly, the northern GA industry is very slow at the moment, the traditional recruiting period (now) has not been anything like previous years, but that can all change in a heartbeat. Perseverance and courage is what is needed now if you want to get a start. If you don't give it a try, you cannot win.

All the best.

[Skydiveandy]

LP,

Yes there are many good reasons for the Australian or NZ only licenses.

Our instructors are approved to conduct training for both of the these licenses but not any other country at this stage. As all new expat pilots operate on a validation not an Indonesia License, any training conducted in house needs to meet the requirements of the license issuer.

Yes we hire Indonesian citizens as copilots ,thats why we clearly state on the AUSTRALIAN and International web sites we do not need copilots. Our Indonesian Copilots are trained internally and supplied by our partnered flying school. We are currently running ground school for 20 new Indonesian pilots.

The only expat copilots we will be hiring in the foreseeable future are those we have already interviewed and accepted.

Depending if we are looking for mountain captains or low land captains determines if we need 500 hours mountain experience or not. We will change our requirements like all companies from time to time depending what we need on that particular day.

Finally, blocked means that.. The email address is added to our email servers block list.

CTG - If you obviously have no clue what your talking about.. When we get 100s of CV's a week while working in Papua with terribly slow internet this takes huge amounts of time, sometimes days to download our emails. I am sure you get plenty of spam emails like the rest of us, annoying isn't it.

Luckily Jaz has solved a lot of theses issues into the future.. The online application process will automatically remove those that do not meet our current criteria at the time.

Andy

[C.T.G.]

Flying Bear…wont disagree with much of what you have said at all except that there can be a gaping wide difference between recently graduated CPL’s. Being in Europe and having learnt to fly in GA and then modular route up to CPL (fATPL) and having been though some of the big integrated schools here for various courses I can tell you the level is not the same across the board, whether it be the sponsored guys from the middle east or ex RAF pilots, you would not believe some of the questions/responses I have heard come out of their mouths.

As for Skydiveandy’s internet speed, I really could not care less. You chose the internet as a platform to advertise and you also chose to handle the process yourself, i.e. not using a recruiter. You also chose to accept email applicants and not use a web based application form that, with a hand full of questions, you could weed out almost all (not the trollers obviously) of those not qualified. Having all been your own choices you have brought it upon yourself and now have no choice but to do the leg work yourself. I don’t disagree with much of your original post, having screened applications in the past, but a resume is a resume and you will do yourself a favour to lose these preconceived ideas about what someone’s resume should look like…I suspect you may well even be surprised, that is once you and Jaz have sorted out the initial process.

[Pinky the pilot]

As for Skydiveandy’s internet speed, I really could not care less. You chose the internet as a platform to advertise and you also chose to handle the process yourself, i.e. not using a recruiter. You also chose to accept email applicants and not use a web based application form that, with a hand full of questions, you could weed out almost all (not the trollers obviously) of those not qualified. Having all been your own choices you have brought it upon yourself and now have no choice but to do the leg work yourself. I don’t disagree with much of your original post, having screened applications in the past, but a resume is a resume and you will do yourself a favour to lose these preconceived ideas about what someone’s resume should look like…I suspect you may well even be surprised, that is once you and Jaz have sorted out the initial process.

The main thrust of the above quote mirrors my thoughts entirely when I read your post Skydiveandy, and I would be interested to read your reply.

I'm not having a go at you btw. But you made an assertion, and I'm interested as to how you will defend it given the circumstances re your net speed.

[cromnflexster]

I'm from Malaysian and it has been a year since i graduated from my flying school EASA CPl/IR license. studied hard for 14 stupid paper and after a year still no jobs. Applied like a thousand company, but they all say will keep in touch. how the hell do airlines expect us to have 1000hours if we didn't have a chance to fly. spend 100k usd on flying and everything seems to be in vain. :(:(:(:(
:{:{

if anyone knows any place i can get a job please reply me in address or whatsoever. as for now any pilot jobs are fine. rome is not built in a day, so i don't expect so much. malaysia airlines and airasia are pretty much not really recruiting so things have been really slow in my country. even in africa they have problems getting visas for expats. i wonder do even have the chance to touch the skies again

[Skydiveandy]

CTG you are correct.. We did choose the AFAP web site to advertise and yes you are right at this point in time we do not have an online application. That has more to do with the fact we didnt have the technical expertise to implement it.. That is all about to change..

But before you go on to far.. Remember this is our playground and we get to set our own rules.. The whole point of the original post was to HELP people that wanted to apply to US. Give them guidelines of what WE are looking for.

This week i am in the big smoke and internet is awesome.. Of the emails i have received this week and there has been over 100 only (3) yes i said three came close to meeting our minimum requirements. Thats 97 that we had to open their MS Word or PDF documents, quickly scan and REPLY too telling them they didnt meet our minimum requirements.

Some of the 97 were a little vague on hours, most with a few thousand TT but no listed time on type. Those guys we emailed and asked the question. Not one of them had time on type.

I will say most of those applicants are not coming from Oz or NZ but from all over the world. Many who have seen an advert on their local sites that was copy and pasted from AFAP. We did not advertise on any of those sites.

Yes we do our best to reply to all applicants.

Finally when we do get the online application system running it will solve many of these problems, not all but most.

Now all we have to do, is wait.. Indonesia time ;)