Interesting article regarding mental health

[Elevator Driver]

Certainly raises a few interesting points.

Pilot mental health: Aussie pilot says mental health issues are not given enough priority (http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-advice/aussie-pilot-says-mental-health-issues-are-not-given-enough-priority-in-the-aviation-industry/story-fnndib5x-1227282287811)

[Ultralights]

"mental health issues arn't given enough priority in the aviation industry"

hell, even quality basic training isnt given enough priority in the aviation industry. what makes anyone think mental health will get a look in.... (sadly)

[VH-FTS]

Sadly I believe that after this week's events no pilot will be honest and disclose any mental health issues. If their airline or CASA get a hold of this information they will be grounded due to fear of another Germanwings incident. Talking to a few guys this week, they all agree they would no longer take up our airline's counselling services if required in times of need.

[josephfeatherweight]

I strongly concur. Who in their right mind (?) will put their hand up now? We will regress to the "toughen up" and "keep it to yourself" times of yesteryear, though I'm not entirely convinced we had progressed from there all that much anyway. Tragic event, that has tarred anyone in the industry who may have needed to seek help and has never had even the slightest intention or thought of taking 140+ lives with them.

[outnabout]

I agree. I thought that Avmed made some fairly interesting decisions previously but can only imagine what sort of lunacy lies ahead - all in the name of safety.

[Defenestrator]

I wholeheartedly agree. No person in their right mind would answer in the affirmative to any of the bull**** questions that are asked during a medical. We all don't drink, don't smoke and exercise incessantly. And any mental health line of questioning will get the same. Only a damn fool would take the lid off that can of worms. If the oxygen thieves at Avmed get a sniff of any kind of issue they'll have your medical pulled in the blink of an eye. Is it any wonder many folk fake their way through medicals.

[chimbu warrior]

Society in general (not just aviation) needs to re-think how it deals with mental health issues.

The first thing that needs to be acknowledged is that mental health issues can affect any person at any time. In that respect it is no different to a cold; anyone can become a victim. It can also vary in severity, and thankfully very few people will ever reach the depths of despair that may have precipitated this weeks tragedy.

Anyone who has ever had a relationship end, suffered financial loss, lost a job, had a loved one pass away suddenly or been the unfortunate victim of an accident (case in point; the young mother who was the subject of the Four Corners report last week) is potentially exposed to mental health problems.

Unfortunately in our industry admitting to these sorts of problems can be a one-way ticket to unemployment. Which leads me to the real crux of the matter - why is it that our regulator and (most, but not all) employers effectively encourage someone hiding such a burden?

Human factors training usually brushes on this sensitive topic, but then hurriedly suggests that anyone who might be under such pressures should seek professional care. Which leads to a terrible choice -

admit the problem and probably expose yourself to unemployment (at the very least) or financial ruin, or,
maintain a stiff upper lip and "toughen up".


The choice is one that no-one should ever have to make, especially in our industry.

[Up-into-the-air]

A discussion needed, but none the less a dangerous one.

Pehaps looking at the issues of why and how people are characterised to become pilots is more important, as anyone can be subject to, as chimbu says, an isolated episode.

There is no testing now for the basic criteria for being a pilot - "ability/ apptitude".

The only test is: "How much money the individual has/ has access to"

The training mechanism and system absolutely stinks, except for a few notable exceptions. As to the oversight [per Nick Xenophon] - stinks and is corrupt.

AND: the investigator can't get it right either.

Anymore??

[DeltaT]

Pilot recruitment will change, battery psychometric testing to see if you have the slightest hint of being depressed. Hell most of us get depressed -because- of the industry and how we are treated. In fact there are scientific studies that show the pilot profession suffers from a high order of depression, nevermind that shiftwork itself is a prominent contributing factor.
As an aside, interestingly, liver function tests are never done in medicals to weed out alcoholics, and that hasn't happened even with the pilots they pull up with spot breath testing.

[Creepy Beard]

Several years ago I was absolutely put through the ringer by CASA after honestly answering a question on my (first ever) medical about having a history of depression. The episode itself was about five years prior to me going for the medical, and I had been healthy since then.

Given the heartache and stress they put me through may God help anyone who honestly answers that question...

In the words of my GP of twenty plus years (who was also my treating psychologist) - "This is insane. How can someone behind a desk in Canberra decide that you are mentally ill?"

In the words of my Psychiatrist, who had prescribed me medicine for the episode - "This is completely unwarranted and unneccessary."

In the words of my DAME, who was sympathetic - "Sometimes the truth gets you nowhere."

Yes, in the end, I got the medical, but the whole experience almost made me feel like a leper. It also cost over $1000 in specialist appointments just to prove that I was not about to fly a plane into the ground.

[Duck Pilot]

Agree totally, CASA need to address this issue ASAP. Putting cabin crew in flight decks is only a knee jerk reaction and does not address the underlying problem.

It's now time that the industry recognises that pilots are paid cr@p and improves pay and conditions significantly, increase airfares by 20% and who cares something needs to be done urgently. How in gods name you guys and girls living in capital cities with families can afford to live beats the hell out of me, it's an absolute disgrace that we as professional pilots have to endure this rubbish in our own country, not that I'm saying that things are much better in a lot of other countries.

[DeltaT]

Its got me thinking just how this could pan out.
Cabin crew are no longer in the cockpit for pilot incapacitation reasons, but in case the pilot becomes suicidal. This means nominated cabin crew are going to have to be given some form of pilot training to know what is going on, or indeed take over themselves. Are cabin crew going to afford to pay that?
How does that effect Low Cost operators - if airlines start paying that training, then there will be an uproar that pilots have to pay for training in comparison.
Further, if the cabin crew person has the remotest possibility of having to pilot the aircraft, doesn't that mean they should also be going under depression testing just like pilots?!
Sounds all silly doesn't it, however logically thats what the implications are.

[mattyj]

Hell, you're a Pilot aren't you, in the twenty first century?..that says it all really!

[gerry111]

I thought that the Australian Government had a swag of armed 'Air Marshalls' on board domestic flights. Wouldn't they be the best people to fulfil this new requirement? :p

[kingRB]

Probably need someone to sit with the air marshal as well in case they become suicidal.

[Snakecharma]

Jesus, you couldn't have an air Marshall on the flight deck, they have a gun!

They could take control of the aeroplane from the pilots...oh hang on....

[Mach E Avelli]

Remove the lock over-ride facility, delay timer and deadbolt completely. Make it a code entry, changed daily or weekly.
Sure, in theory a terrorist could hold a gun or knife to a crewmember's head to get the entry code, but with so much airport security there are not too many terrorist acts attempted by passengers any more. Serious terrorists would be more likely to use a missile aimed from a hotel or apartment near the airport.
A deranged passenger could be seen as a potential threat, but these days one would hope that other crew and passengers would decisively deal with that. Ditto with a pilot who flips out - if access to the cockpit is available people are not going to sit there all passive while one pilot is in the dunny and the other engages Stuka mode.
One armed Sky Marshall in any aircraft is a baaad idea - as someone suggested, he could be suicidal himself. But three guards scattered around the cabin would work. Post a warning on every ticket and include it in the cabin crew briefing: "bogans - sorry, guests - behaving badly may be shot". Hey, we could even get back to the days when we invited kids with MILFs up front. Not too many of those ever hijacked an aeroplane.

[DeltaT]

I hate to get too nerdy, but how about if a prolonged or excessive descent occurs AND a coded electronic signal from ATC is received then the cockpit door unlocks!

[jas24zzk]

I know some people who suffer from minor depression (keeping in mind what is the true definition of Depression is a very broad spectrum).

Knowing these people, you can pick the level of drop by the way they carry themselves, you watch them strap on an aeroplane and blast off.

They always seem to come back with a new spring in their step, a renewed vigour which is clear and evident.

Aviating appears to have the ability to do what medicine can't.

[Mach E Avelli]

Also, re-introducing a policy allowing children to visit the flight deck in the cruise and at times of low workload could achieve several things.
1. Relieve boredom, especially if mum is a hottie........
2. Inject a sense of pride in one's work
3. A reminder that we are responsible for innocent lives
4. Greater public awareness of what it is we do

In another post someone suggests that airline management should share responsibility for pilot mental health. To a point, inasmuch as employment conditions can affect well being, but that does not mean anyone other than the perpetrator can ever be blamed for mass murder.
To attempt to share blame in such cases is a cop out. The old bull**** that if you are abused as a child, you are partially excused for abusing children. Your life is a fustercluck, so you are going to mess with other lives, etc. No, you are not in any way excused - in fact all the more reason that you should know better.

[jas24zzk]

Mach E.

Part 1..your 4 points..totally agree!!! my cockpit visit on my first flight ever to the deck of a 727-200LR as a 10 year old, fueled my passion for aviation. That visit is as clear to me today, as if it happened yesterday...Can still see the captain with his wizz wheel out converting knots to Kmh for me to better understand.

Part 2. Employer input into depression management. Not convinced that the employer has any further role beyond Compassion and Support.
From an employers position, your role is no different to if the employee suffered from Alcaholism. This is a really grey area, and I am watching with interest my fathers case. He is unable to work, and works for a company that is self insured....he's actually unable to complete most normal tasks...incl wiping his A!. As the company is self insured, he is required to front each day for light duties. Those duties include completing any new computer based training modules that come up, and simply being present....A clear case of a company fueling depression....really don't know where to go with it.


Part 3. As someone who HAS gone through it, i'll be short and sweet. You have no fuggin idea, and are only espousing words from the media...shut up!
And yes I AM drawing on personal experience!

Happy easter to you and family.

Jas

[Mach E Avelli]

Jas, how do you know that I "have no fuggin' idea"? In the past my responsibilities included dealing with pilots who displayed various problems - from booze, to dope to belting their wives. In an expatriate situation with people living in a close community all of these behaviours pose difficulties for a Chief Pilot tasked variously with safety, standards, pilot discipline and general aircrew welfare.
While we did our best to be compassionate, and after a first offence did usually offer them time out to resolve their issues, it was not our place as an employer to lay on rehabilitation services (not available in-country) or to provide an opportunity for them to re-offend within our company or community. We did refer one guy with a booze problem to a counselling service in his home country, but he never attended. So, we terminated his employment. And when another did a Jeremy Clarkson, he was on the next flight out - for his own protection in a culture where revenge was commonplace.
Having seen them off, did we then have a responsibility to track them in their future aviation careers? I think not, and indeed to attempt to do so would probably be highly illegal. One of our former pilots went on to commit suicide some time after he left us; another had an accident which totalled the airframe, fortunately with no serious injuries. Could we have somehow contributed to either of these events which occurred several years later? We knew one had a drinking problem and the other had anger issues, that was all. We had no idea the suicidal guy was also into hard drugs. Except for going on an occasional bender, he seemed so 'normal' - lovely wife, great flying skills, handsome, funny - the epitome of a pilot.
Now we are more aware of the 'black dog' and know that it is more common than we realised in the past. But, say a pilot confides to his shrink that he is depressed to the point of being suicidal. Can the shrink - should the shrink - report it to the authorities in order to have the pilot grounded pending treatment? Patient-doctor confidentiality protocols probably say not. In some countries if someone has a serious STD, it is a mandatory report. In the same countries, mental issues are not likely to go beyond the consulting room. Unless it is a pilot disclosing to his aviation examiner, and that is unlikely, given the possible repercussions once the regulator becomes involved. In any case, a mental problem does not of itself always lead to criminal acts. In fact most people with mental illness are still very law abiding - fortunately!
But mentally disturbed or not, if adults commit violent crimes, they ARE responsible! Who else? The only other people sometimes jointly responsible are the judiciary and parole boards who turn serial offenders loose on the rest of us. Don't get me started on how I would like to see some of those do gooders held accountable.....But that is a separate issue to the one being debated here.
How could the CEO of an airline employing thousands of people be expected to know that one pilot was planning a mass murder, if even the guy's shrink did not pick it?

[BushPahlot]

Hi,

I recently put my hand up for some help, used the company's counselor, it helped. Then went and got some private assistance as well, took some time off flying. Now i'm better, itching to get recurrent, have been applauded by my DAME; not so much the company as they had an oldskool understanding.

People just go through rough patches in their lives, we are human that makes us amazing at what we do, but it also makes us the biggest threat to safety. A pilot getting help is much much much safer than one avoiding the issues. They need to encourage responsibility...

Do the old BIG PICTURE check of the industry;
1. Shift work
2. Stressful - Checks, performance, environmental
3. Hot
4. Isolated
5. Confined work space

Be a man or a woman, talk to someone about your problems.

[jas24zzk]

Mach E,

Firstly I'd like to sincerely apologise for the tone and choice of words I used the other night. Unfortunatley I have had no internet access to do so until now. (bush holiday where NOTHING works).

The comment that got my ire up was specifically..
The old bull**** that if you are abused as a child, you are partially excused for abusing children

I'll say it in simple terms to avoid confusion....its basically a chain of events, in different scenarios

A.
Abused, get over it and go through life with no problems.

B.
Abused, report to police, get a conviction, and go on your way 'happy'

C.
Abused, get part way through your life and decide its what's driving your negativity and seek a conviction, go on your way 'happy'

D. Abused, not care and continue the cycle.

B and C are almost as high a risk as D in continuing the cycle, for a very simple reason.

There is ZERO help available from the Government. Sure you might be lucky enough to get a payout which you will spend on whatever, maybe go see a few shrinks, but there are no programs for the Victims to aid in breaking the cycle. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

The only way to get onto a government program dealing with these issues, is to be convicted :eek:


What many do not realise, is that many abusers, talk to the kids about their friends, and the line 'sure ALL boys are interested' is still fresh in my mind as if it were yesterday...30 years later.

Enjoy.
Jas