How many Pilots have left/Leaving Emirates

[haveago]

Do you know anyone who has left? What is the attrition rate at the moment? Emirates are desperately short of pilots on all Fleets. Rumour control, some flights have been cancelled as result of crew shortage and 5 380s going for "maintenance" GROUNDED as result of Captain shortage.
Interesting times!!

[Rather Be Skiing]

Recently flew with a 4 year F/O who is leaving. Well, left now I guess. Heading back to his old outfit in the U.K. Not Ryanair!

Even being this close to his upgrade wasn't enough to keep him here.

Lifestyle issues and an inhuman corporate culture. On paper, easily fixable issues but not likely with the management in place here, now. Sad state, really.

[flaphandlemover]

One guy just didn't come back from vacation...
Other one had his last flight with me...
Met another one in HR who is on his way out...
On the washup the Hr lady was lying to us that the the attrition rate is only constant 2,2-2,7%😄😄 and we have no problem with recruiting.
Guys from recruitment said they have app 5 applications a day. (In old days it was 75). These guys are going to the office
to pray that they at least can call someone as there are applicants with a total of 300h on B737.
Good times ahead. Come to Ek the best company in the ME.(NOT)
Overtaken by all other airlines around...
Well done management..

I once was proud to work for EK.... This has been taken care of by the management. Thank you...

[The Outlaw]

Don't hold your breath for change...will never happen until one of the top 2 in the company clean the house.

[Rather Be Skiing]

Don't hold your breath for change...will never happen until one of the top 2 in the company clean the house.

Actually, I think the top needs to change if there is to be as big a culture shift as is needed. TC has done the job of building the business/commercial side of the airline. Now we need someone at the helm that has the strength of conviction to address the human resource side of the company.

[Trader]

They are saying attrition is less than 2%. Apparently, anyone who is over 50 and leaves is considered to be 'retiring' and not included in those numbers!

Wash ups recently pilots are being told that the flying is increasing and to expect 95-100 hours per month for at least a year. All while while HR maintains no one is leaving and hiring is not an issue (though fleet is admitting it is short and no one is coming).

EVERYONE is hiring now in the ME, Asia, Turkey, Asia......

[Kapitanleutnant]

There had to be some type of twist to the numbers, Trader! Good info on guys over 50 NOT being counted among the constant mantra we hear…. "ever steady 1.5 to 2%".

Could never understand that "fuzzy math" HR Lady would tell us all when we all knew there are a lot more leaving today than say 3 years ago… when we were all still being told at that time the attrition numbers were, "ever steady 1.5 to 2%".

K

[Mister Warning]

It saddens me to say that Emirates has become like buying a leaky boat - your happiest days are the first, and the last. :(

[6000PIC]

Some very basic research tells anyone even remotely interested in applying for a flight crew position with EK , that to do so would be foolish if not just a big mistake. Tough times ahead for EK. Then again , is anyone suprised ?

[fireball_23]

Well, I guess people are still attracted. A lot of pilots in my airline are dreaming of EK. They just request to many hours for them right now..

[flareflyer]

Fireball can you please tell us where your airline is based?

[fireball_23]

In Panama ! And I know a bunch of pilots in Avianca dying to go to EK as well. I believe people need to find by themselves

[misd-agin]

Does EK have a seniority list? The advancement by the junior guy would provide the actual number of people leaving.


Or, like in Chicago voting, do they kept people on the list after they no longer exist?

[tom330]

It's not so bad at EK. Do you really work for them? I'm getting much better the pay I had with my previous employer and I get to fly better jets. You need to appreciate what you have if not, show the company and leave. Don't stay and nag. I know so many that are eagerly waiting for their hours to make the move to EK.

[misd-agin]

What was your previous job and pay?

[Buford]

Wait for the kids, Tom, wait for the kids. I see you are married and without kids...enjoy the extra income while you can.

[flaphandlemover]

Thom,

you might want to take off the pink goggles...

It takes about 4 Years to realise how much you have already lost from the contract you have signed...(lets call the useless paper a contract).

But I am sure EK needs you to promote paradise... as you must be one of the few that still considers this outfit worth promoting.... Najum is yours.... for sure..

[Am NOT Sure]

Tom330

You are right .. What were we thinking ..the whole lot of us

Maybe with total submission our T&C will improve ?

Tom get off the Xanax please

[SOPS]

Thanks for the advice Tommy, I am leaving...in 4 days. As some one else said...time to take off your pink goggles.

[Smoothflight]

Guys listen. I have flown for a European carrier before. At EK so far I am happy. Maybe in a year I Will be unhappy. In my twenty five years of flying I have learned one thing. Management is the worst pilots enemy. When the times comes and iT sucks at the current employer , I will simply move on to greener postures.

[sbradley737]

I left last month after 3 years with the company. My only regret was not doing it sooner!

[halas]

Greener postures?

halas

[Rather Be Skiing]

Greener postures? halas

An environmentally friendly stance?

[fliion]

Hmmm....

It seems Tom and Smoothie need to wait six years down the road and see that they have taken a 6.5% pay cut in that time....

Or be on long term sick mandated by a Dr ...and seek permission to go to their home country to be with loved ones ....only to be denied ..

Or have their body decide that it's sick leading up to leave and realise that its punitive as against any other time of the year...

Or have tea & biccies after an unstable approach having gone into discretion only to realise that the 6o minute prior push back start of duty was actually when the skipper was doing the walk around ...

Or have a change in their staff travel Bennies to,the worse ...whereby your ALT does not cover the original city that you joined from because it's not on the EK network...

Or sit and listen to the in flight podcast where the 'The main man from Ek says "every flight ops crew to a man or woman is only delighted to be here'

Or watch our CC crawl into HQ sick and distraught when they should be in bed ..in order not to be disciplined...

Or have a manager at the slightest whim decide you need a CDT test ...

Or sit and wait patiently with a perfect record for eight years on the 330 then 380 for your command as the guy moves into a villa next to you who is 32 and never flown outside an LCC in the EU..and he strolls out to his car everyday with his "Golden 4 bars""

Or watch that same guys 1 & 2 year old screaming kids settle into their bizzo seats on their 1st annual ALT as you and your loyal gang jump into ten abreast for the 15 hr slog to the connection that used to be paid for that no longer is...

Or be under the constant week in week out receiving end of emails who's delivery is the polar opposite of what you will need in soft skills to pass the your upgrade interview .

Or go to a wash up as a four year FO and ask about DEC plans only to be told ..."not going to happen " ..then comes home, turn on his iPad amd sees the ad!

Or....oh never mind...

see you kiddies in Rock Bottom ... " dude She's hot ...EK is awesome!"

; >

f.

[Mister Warning]

Best. Post. Ever. ^^^^^^

[Desdihold]

Excellent post flillion,
Smoothie and tom are either from ryanair or a similar airline.
Technicaljy they are ok but they only know procedures at best.

I recently flew with an ex Ryan air Cpt who joined in EK in right seat.
He complained about how a former colleague at ryanair was able to join as a DEC where as he a 9 year veteran at ryanair and a Ryanair TRI was not given the same advantage despite having joined one month earlier.

I finally had to take him aside and tell to put a sock in it.

We have some real idiots flying for us.

The seniority list needs to be respected, you get a number and you wait your turn.

[kungfu panda]

Let me have my head bitten off.

I totally sympathise with the overall situation at Emirates, I can't understand why anybody would choose to go there with the current scheduling and overtime regime.

On the other hand I totally disagree with the whinging F/O's over direct entry command. Firstly in my opinion you should not leave your own home country to become expat in the first place without a command because it is your comrades who speak the same accent of the same country and who have been to the same schools as you who should be making you a Captain because they know you best. If they will not make you a Captain then nobody else should.
Secondly why shouldn't a 50 year old Captain who has been in the left seat for 20 years expect to be able to change company without having to start all over again.
In my view in the case of a company like Emirates there needs to be a fair balance between upgrades and DEC's unfortunately there are insufficient numbers of DEC opportunities.
Why anybody would currently go to Emirates in the first place though, I don't understand.

[Desdihold]

Kungfu,
On the topic of DEC and older DEC captains with relevant experience , I will agree that EK should welcome such candidates into the left seat. I believe such a number would be small but I would welcome them as our gene pool would be too shallow otherwise.

The problem at EK is that the company has recruited DECs who have had no previous wide body experience and no international time.
Many have come fro my (not) favorite airline Ryanair.
This has occurred withing the last two years.

This is shocking and it is the part I object to.

[yardman]

Hey guys, give Tom and Smoothie a break. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Perception is 100% reality. Yes they are probably new and are obviously happy. Good for them. Their opinions are no less valid than anyone else's here. I
I've been here 11 years and I don't hate the place. It could be a lot better for sure, but there are plenty of places around the world that are a lot worse. Don't hate on those guys if they are happy. Wish them well instead. Personally, if they're happy, then I'm happy for them. Just chill guys.

Yardman

[alwayzinit]

Tom, you are right to a certain extent, it is a matter of perspective and from where you have come.
However, where I do disagree with you strongly is in the simple maths of DXB and EK recent pay rounds.
Inflation is running conservatively at 15% pa we have been awarded our 3% annual increment plus 0.5%. So in effect we have had a 23.5% pay cut over the last 2 years.
Ek's package used to be one of the very best going. Not surprisingly those who flew for it were happy and engaged with the company, working hard towards the best interests and goals for both parties.
EK's package has not kept pace with either inflation or the global aviation employment market. In fact it has gone backwards, fast.
The financial problem is one issue, the others include unsustainable flying rates, insufficient rest patterns to fully recover from massive time changes on ULR flights, not honouring contracted leave entitlement. Actually the list goes on a on, but, Tom, you are right it is a different picture depending on where you came from to the Pit.

[JAARule]

Hmmm....

It seems Tom and Smoothie need to wait six years down the road and see that they have taken a 6.5% pay cut in that time....

Or be on long term sick mandated by a Dr ...and seek permission to go to their home country to be with loved ones ....only to be denied ..

Or have their body decide that it's sick leading up to leave and realise that its punitive as against any other time of the year...

Or have tea & biccies after an unstable approach having gone into discretion only to realise that the 6o minute prior push back start of duty was actually when the skipper was doing the walk around ...

Or....... etc etc
You need to take a pill. The guy put a bait on a hook and you bit, he's laughing at you. Time well spent writing all that. :rolleyes:

[lospilotos]

And now back to original thread topic...

FACT: In the last month 11 pilots have left. 3 of those would fit in the "above 50" category. What strikes me is that 5 guys were less than 4 years in the company and should come up to upgrade, but chose to leave, also forfitting the provident money that would only pay out (at 75%) after 5 years.

Seniority list grew by only 4 pilots in the same period. Hardly enough to allow for any expansion, is it...

I have 2 years to go until 5 and then I´m bailing, unless there is substantial improvement to rostering and vacation policies, that´s my main beef.

I would definitely consider going back to my little liked Europan LCC as FO for quick upgrade. A stable 5/4 roster is worth quite a lot actually... Getting your roster 7 days in advance is totally unacceptable if you have a family.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Not sure how many leaving, but about 40 new joiners first 3 months of this year.

[Eau de Boeing]

lospilotos :ok: +1

[flareflyer]

40 new joiners the first three month....... that means if it keeps like that will be around 160 in one year........ and how many they need??? around 500???
Interesting.......

[Boeingrestricted]

The worst enemy of a pilot is another so 'called' pilot , when personal interests come into effect these pilots will use the elbows. That's what you have got to watch out for, their handicap will be compensated for by their elbows. As for the ME companies they will "own" you, some straight of the bat while others will allow the new "maid" to get used to the lifestyle , but they will ALL pretend they OWN you after the break in period. This is what is being felt and referred to with disgust. The two buckets with either sh@t/money and whichever first. So if you are bitching and moaning, the money bucket is insufficiently covered for, while the Bull is reaching tsunami levels and you have no exit plan/opportunity. I truly feel sorry for you , because now you are a property/asset. Unionizing is or will probably be dealt with very harshly from the governmental side so I recommend to be very quite and work on the problem, coz no one here will be able to help you. And I really would like to help like any other person would like to help.
Telling the truth is neither easy nor appreciated....

[fliion]

Actually JAA - you took the bit.

My and those of others posts have alterior motives - and it's working.

Cue title.

I'd like to know where his appetizer and main course are - judging by Toms current location.

f.

[Emma Royds]

Boeingrestricted

There is no sense of EK owning us and I don't feel for one minute that EK own me in any way. We don't complain because we feel trapped here but for the very reason that we share frustration at seeing what was once a great company being greatly eroded to a shadow of its former self.

Take note that 40% of those that I have flown with in 2015 so far have expressed a desire to leave and have planned exit strategies in place.

There is very much life after EK and it is a life with a strong pulse in the present climate. A lot more will leave and this is the calm before the storm.

[Marsellus]

Always- what do you mean with financial issues!? If we exchange the salary from Dirhams on the EK career site, this is at the moment 7500 tsd euros.. With no expenses!? If my wife and kid would spent 50 euros a day. This will leave me still a large amount per month to save etc!? Can you collaborate what I am not seeing with facts expenses in DXB?

[The Outlaw]

https://youtu.be/A53VRz_KhnY

Your experience may differ.
Present results may not indicate future performance.
Caveat Emptor.

The film is...well...interesting. Considering RH was escorted out of the building, Meydan was just around the corner, leave was being granted and rosters were well below 90 hours.

Some of this video is actual truth. Its up to the viewer to figure out how much.

[lfrk]

I have watched that video many time before I joined Ek 3 and a bit years ago...
I can tell you, the size of my garden is not the same than on the video :ugh::ugh::ugh: just to mention that point ! :mad::mad::mad:

Funny, the comments option on youtube is not active !! bizarre

[Schnowzer]

50 Euros a day? Best of luck!

[Smoothflight]

Colleagues,
just for fliion and others to understand where I am coming from. No not Ryanair or anyother LCC in Europe. I wish it was Ryanair, at least I would have made some money. After 14 + years as FO, my pay was €3500, two years ago the company since it is in financial trouble decided overnight to give us a paycut of 20%, nice!!! Now I was making €2800 per month. yupiii.
Did management give them self a paycut? Nope. Only pilots. Did our Union do anything. Nope. They were afraid that the company would go under, and they would loose their flying jobs in their country. Management knew their attitude and played on this, and continued to cut on our benefits. 2 years ago , another bomb shell. In a country where we paid about 50% taxes, and doubble pension contribution, our dear government decides to boone us as well. They destroyed our pension system for pilots. before it was fly 20 years and get 2/3 of pension, fly 30 years get full pension. Now you must fly till 65, and your pension will be as much as a factory worker. Socialisam, yupiii. When asked if we may get reimbursed , since we where paying dubble pension contribution. Answer: Nope. So screwed by the company and government. About Upgrade? lol. After merger, lost seniority. just before upgrade, company phases out the aircraft type I was on. I regret that I did not leave earlier. Kind off hoped that things would become better. We went on strike to protest our pension deal. Do you think that our CEO, was behind us. Well no. On national TV he called pilots overpaid spoiled bus drivers. That is when I saw what time it is. Fliion, I understand you, Believe me , I have been through degrading condition as well. Now put your self in my shoes. How would you feel if EK tomorrow decides to cut your pay by lets say 6000dhs, and also decides to annul the providential fund. Believe me almost everyone will leave. Before I came here, I was clear headed. I had no illusions. I did my research. Am I happy or exstatic here? Do I glorify or bag on EK. No I don't. I am here not that long. Do I get a better deal than back home. Hell yes. This is just a Job. If it gets bad, I will pick-up and leave.

[Marsellus]

easy to state - best of luck. But the 50 euros is more a challenging question. What in your opinion is the minimum and based on what? I mean the standard bills you have to pay with no bills outside Dubai?

[vfenext]

I think it says a lot about the value of this thread when people are actually complaining about the size of their garden. Sounds like a real deal breaker!!!!!

[fliion]

Smoothie

In the last two and half years of with your previous employer...did they make $2.5bn ?

I'm the last ten years with your previous, did they make over $10bn.

Apples to apples.

f.

[Boeingrestricted]

Emma Royds

A golden cage has many faces , amongst others the natural resistance against changes to the status quo, which is a given known fact to the managers (bean counters/'pilots')).You do not want to move on! We all resist by bitching and moaning as a relieve valve indicating our discomfort and showing that we are happy and do not intent to move, unless you leave us alone. Its a (weak)threatening posture against the Powers To Be.

The response from the PTB on the other hand is crystal clear, an unmistakable" show me your hemorrhoids ". Usually accompanied by setting examples. They will normally utilize the weak for this purpose (crucifixion)
In order to scare the rest(strong).

Unless the counter response from the sheep has a strong response (This is an uncoordinated act due to the lack of an organization(union)) .The above will be, game set and match for the PTB!

I wrote something previously regarding the survey 1-2 months ago, that the
Purpose of this survey was to spot the weaknesses of the sheep. In George Carlin's words.

Anyhow, If we are still around in abundance/sufficient numbers ,the message to the PTB is that its bluff and thus we are owned by them becomes a reasonable description( from their point of view)

I understand that you are a Cpt. , but look from the other side of the coin a total different ballgame (7/8 years FO's).

Boeingrestricted

[Smoothflight]

Fliion,
I am not disagreeing with you. As I have heard, things have degraded. I am aware of that. If I was in your shoes, I would have the same feelings. What could we? as EK pilots do in order to better our condition at EK. I think the problem is middle management. I am wondering if the top guys know about our degrading conditions. I think all the feedback never reaches TC. Could we write a letter with our concernes directly to TC?

[Marsellus]

Funny to read this thread.. Do you really think that top level management is not aware of the T&C's. You must be joking. Middle management is directed by the level above and so on...

The company is only interested in making more money and save costs. EK has become to big to control. People with the correct experience leaving etc. This is why things go as they go. But the T&C are programmed to be like this. Lets hope that this will not be lowered any further.

The garden too small.. Guys that house and garden is for free. Don't forget that.

[Marsellus]

My two cents is the following.

Create a group of pilots and look into the current situation. Seek professional advice and come out with a plan and solution for EK. FACTS

To complain and damage the airlines name and brand will not make things better.. This has happened somewhere very ultra low cost down in Europe.

The best option is to stay on speaking terms!

[lospilotos]

The garden too small.. Guys that house and garden is for free. Don't forget that.

The house and garden is NOT for free, it's part of the renumination package, and you have obviously not dealt with the accommodation department in EK.

When I came here 4 years ago for the interview I was shown a lovely villa in a nice part of Dubai, that´s what I sold to the wife. Arriving here we got placed in what should not be described as anything less than a dump, with zero possibility of moving to another location, even though people arriving after me got allocated houses similar to what was shown in the HR tour...

But by all means, come here and see for yourself. Just bookmark this thread so you can come back and see how right we were and how wrong you were...

[Marsellus]

lospilotos,

You are underestimating me. But thats ok. Ive been in DXB and seen all accommodations without any interview or assessment. I was lucky not to join 5 years ago. I did very thorough ground work. But its not as bad as written here on this forum. Things are not better than in Europe or Asia for example.

My wife did not even like silicon oases for example. Indian ranges came close.. If we join- its definitely for other reasons than for accommodation. Not to speak about the little horses site. But in the end- emirates is offering you a roof and did not speak about sizes of gardens etc. They showed you- the kind of best- in their own interest.

I would like to warn you on this case. Because all of your possible new employers will do the same. Don't fall in the same trap again! You've been warned..

[skyvan]

Marsellus,

For someone who isn't at EK, you seem to show a huge amount of interest in declaring the current pilot's don't know what they're talking about.

It would appear that you are very pro-management, and very probably nothing more than mere management troll.

[Mr Good Cat]

My wife did not even like silicon oases for example. Indian ranges came close..

Indian Ranges - the new apartments to be offered in Deira? Didn't we do this with the 18 month temporary accommodation thing a while back?

[Marsellus]

Why are you copying threads? Do you really don't have anything else to do?

Why don't you just get me the info I was seeking for...

[Mr Good Cat]

My apologies for appearing rude and insensitive.

What info would you like?

[Mr Good Cat]

Why are you copying threads? Do you really don't have anything else to do?

Why don't you just get me the info I was seeking for...

Sorry for copying that, but I've read your other two posts and can't figure out what you are asking for?

I'm always willing to help people out when I can.

[Mr Good Cat]

The best advice I can give you is to ignore EVERYONE on the internet.

Swallow this pill I give you and watch this:

https://youtu.be/9cQgQIMlwWw

https://youtu.be/9cQgQIMlwWw

[alwayzinit]

Marcelus, it's fairly simple, salary is in no way keeping pace with inflation.
I think my post was pretty clear about that.
As to savings, good luck with that if you have kids or want any kind of life.

[falconeasydriver]

Just did a quick calculation based on my movement up the seniority list v where I was 6 months ago.
5.5% attrition in the last 6 months, but I suppose 3% are being counted as retirees :hmm:

[olster]

MC - you have a Private Eyeesque level of wit which is very much appreciated - keep it up - a sense of humour will keep you / us going probably for a little while. Indian ranges - very funny.

[Marsellus]

Thanks always!

I wasn't aware of the difference in rate..

In the end of the day we spend money in the pit.. So the inflation ratio as per contract is worth bullocks..

[lol777]

I told a friend the other day that if you want somebody not to become a pilot just read pprune.
A lot of guys here say why would you leave your country if you are a FO and Dubai sucks and EK sucks, the house is crap, garden to small, management was rude to me and i have to fly my ass off and and and.
But i don't hear one guy on here complain about crime, rape, or murder. I don't hear guys complaining about not getting a job because he is of a certain race. i don't hear guys complaining that just down the street from him a man was stabbed to death 80 times with a screw driver while his wife was raped and his 4 year old daughter had to watch and scream don't hurt my daddy.(stuff that happens every day here and even more brutal)
i don't hear the guys complain that their houses has been broken in to 8 times in 2 months.
I don't hear anybody complain about his daughter getting 8 distinctions in school and can't get into university because she is white. That you have to live in a house thats caged like a jail. Where you can only fly for 2 airlines in the country because they are the only ones that employs white people and with that comes a salary that you can't even take your wife or your kid for a movie even flying 90 hours a month( on old equipment). And if i have to continue to tell you everything i will be here till tomorrow.
So conclusion. Weighing up your complains with mine I think i will take EK with a smile. Knowing i have a job and my family is safe. And my kids can stand a fighting chance in life with a future and education.

So guess which country i live in. And the guys wanting to come home. Things are bad and getting worse by the day.

[LHR Rain]

They are getting bad and worse by the day here too 777 dreamer.
It is all relative.
Don't be fooled that EK is good for you. It will tear your health apart, test your sanity and fatigue you beyond comprehension. Your wife might not get raped here but what EK does to your mind and physic is just not worth it anymore.

[four engine jock]

lol777
You really make South Africa look bad.
Its not as bad as you put it.
please stay in DXB.
Its people like you that Make SA as it is.
We dont need you here anyway.

[lol777]

Yes it is. Those are all facts i mentioned. And yes you are correct in saying they don't need me at this point. But soon they will be needing every single south african to rebuild it. But you are entitled to your own views about the place as i am. And i must be honest mine after what i have been through is not positive at this stage. But all the best for you though.

[lol777]

Thanks LHR for the info. One last thing its not people like me that makes sa the way it is. It is the criminals unfortunately and many other things. But i understand the out look you have. There are a few with that out look.

[Buford]

Pilots caught racing at 200kph during road safety week (http://7daysindubai.com/pilots-caught-racing-200kph-road-safety-week/)

SUV flips over Dubai, Al Ain Road divider - Emirates 24|7 (http://www.emirates247.com/news/emirates/suv-flips-over-dubai-al-ain-road-divider-2015-03-18-1.584612)

Might not be rapes and home invasions but every day my wife and kids are on the roads dealing with this. You take your life in your hands driving in Dubai...no kidding.

[Mr Good Cat]

Well, South Africa sounds awful and I sympathise with anybody who can't return home.

However, with respect highlighting what happens in one country does not make what happens in another acceptable.

Also, why are EK not recruiting all the pilots who are trying to get out of SA? (serious question, not a dig).

[Rather Be Skiing]

lol777, just because somewhere else is 'worse' doesn't make here 'good'.

[lol777]

You see these are now good reply's. Management will always be a problem. Politics will be in hong kong in the states in south africa every where. What people want to know is howit is to live in. What to watch out for. Can you survive.

[nolimitholdem]

Can you survive.

The answer to your question is - longterm -

No.

The present rostering practices are not sustainable. This is not only a flight crew issue, it crosses all departments. Cabin crew reisigning in droves, engineers on forced overtime, on and on. It's systemic and thus, not possible to sustain.

There are pilots at the top of the seniority list who are retiring after 20 years service. There is absolutely no one hired in the last several years who will physically last that long. Sobering thought.

Using rape and home invasion as rhetoric to defend EK's practices is pitiful. If that's what it takes to make EK/Dubai look good, well...

[aileron droop]

mr good cat :

AWESOME VIDEO:D

[Marsellus]

Guys

I understand the current situation but what would the options be after EK!? Anything or certain gigs. Remember that 900 hours is the norm... Fatigue is all over our industry. You might get month on month off somewhere in Asia. Which will generate 500- 600 hours. But the commuting and jet lags will destroy you. After all, this type of ops is mainly DEC..

[CaptainChipotle]

Marcelarse:

You continually prove your ignorance.

900 hrs is the norm at SOME levels in aviation. If you fly 900hrs farting around in your LCC in Europe or anywhere else, most likely 85-90% of your flying is when the sun is up... ...you know, that bright star that shines... ...but you'd have to pull your head out of your Marcelarse long enough to see it.

Flying 900hrs with midnight/2am/4am departures and crossing many time zones is too much. Way too much.

I've flown 900hrs at my previous company and by no means was it as tiring as flying 900hrs at EK.

[captainsmiffy]

Actually, lol777, the lady next door to me in DSO WAS raped, according to the police. The perpetrator, now in custody, tried our doors prior to going next door...

[dubaigong]

Lol777 ,


A few day ago a friend's daughter ( 17 years old ) has been raped by a taxi driver during day light... It's very safe here only because they hide all the information they don't like.
Many things happen but you will never know about it until it happen to you or to your friends.

[SOPS]

Marsellus is either a complete idiot or EGT , in his spare time, being paid to peddle the company line. 900 hours is the norm? Only in companies theat have no concern for their crew's long term health.

By the way guys, the dogs say hi, they reckon it's great to have dad to take them to the beach, and the relief I feel is incredible.:ok:

[Speedbrake]

https://marcusgohmarcusgoh.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/loyalperson.jpg

[falconeasydriver]

SOPs congrats there young man, if there was a like button, I'd be pressing it for your last post.
It constantly amazes me the feeling of oppression that gets lifted when I'm out of Dubai, its almost as if the place has bad juju.

[Marcellus Wallace]

By the way...he's not related to me at all.

[Rather Be Skiing]

Marsellus is either a complete idiot or EGT , in his spare time, being paid to peddle the company line. 900 hours is the norm? Only in companies theat have no concern for their crew's long term health. By the way guys, the dogs say hi, they reckon it's great to have dad to take them to the beach, and the relief I feel is incredible.:ok:

Ok thanks a lot! You've made my dogs jealous! Enjoy parole. Lucky so and so!

[bone]

"By the way...he's not related to me at all."


Ahhh...so you must be the new deputy then ?

[sluggums]

Yeah, how does that work? I thought all the new labels were to prevent 2 of anything. Now we have 2 DCPA's... Or is one CDPA or CPAD. Whatever, nice to see they're maintaining their firm grasp of the non essentials.

[Marsellus]

Captain Chip****

Why Captain? You are whining in the right seat are you? Commenting that DEC would not exist anymore due to "qualified" Fo's... Like you?

You are a frustrated fool to believe your own nonsense. You were writing that you will leave the pit and EK Feb 14. But presently still whining in the left seat with no contingency plan available. You call yourself a Captain boy?

Do you really think that in Asia you would fly regulated minimum hours. You better concentrate on non HR publicity and non Internet commercials. Get your facts straight. They will let you fly the max possible! Maybe if you weren't that shortsighted you wouldn't be in the pit at all...

[junglie-driver]

Good morning all. Could someone please tell me how to block another member's posts? VMT

[Dropp the Pilot]

You mean like this?

"This message is hidden because Marsellus is on your ignore list."

Look under "User CP" at the left side of the PPRUNE menu bar.

[bogeydope]

Thanks for that, just added same name to my ignore list......:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[flyingpig1987]

Ok this is my first ever post on pprune and I do so with some trepidation and fear of being blasted for being a troll etc. Anyway hopefully all goes well and if possible I would like to ask if we could keep this to hard facts and figures.

I am personally struggeling to see the issues being raised and there are couple of reasons for this

I currently work for a small(ish) European regional airline. Coming to Emirates as an F/O would put me on more money then captains are making here. I also feel that my monthly outgoings would shrink. Me and my partner spend the equivalent of about 13000Dhs a month on bills. This includes 5000Dhs on a mortgage. I do not see how my bills in Dubai could add up to anywhere near this ammount.
I have seen on here people quoting figures of 5000Dhs-6000dhs a month for food for a family of 4. We currently dont have kids but our food bill for 2 is about 2500dhs a month here in the UK.
I then see the statements about schools. Yes there is state education here but unless you are lucky with schools you are more than likely looking to go private for a good school. I dont know exact numbers but you are therefore looking at potentially 65000dhs a year on schooling and thats with no extra help from my company.
I then read people quoting info about tennis lessons etc for kids costing a lot. Tell me if i'm wrong (preferably in a nice way) but aren't these just costs generally associated with having kids? I would imagine that sort of thing would not be cheap here either.

In terms of flight times and fatigue etc. again things here are not peachy. I am currently away on 5 day trip to then finish late on friday and start again on earlies mon. This is generally my life; what is the equivalent of a 5/2 roster being away at least 3 of those 5 days. We tend to do 4 sector days and personally I find that it is the turnarounds that tire me out the most. When I do get home because my partner works shifts as well more often then not she is at work and I wont see her. I feel that in Dubai at least there would be no pressure on her having to work and so she would be home more when I get back from trips. You also get no support from management and requests for days off being denied.

From a personal point of view I therefore cannot see how my life could not be better in Dubai.
I look forward to the onslaught but hopefully everyone will play nice and maybe stay on topic

[jidder]

Please come and join the party, maybe we will get more than 8 days off in the month or the leave we are contracted for. 91.5 hours a month is so 2012 so cum take the strain and give us a rest. Your partner will enjoy her time in dubai on her own, trying to gain entry to one of the many full beach clubs :ok:

J:E

[vfenext]

Flyingpig, sensible post and you bring a perspective that won't be welcomed here. When people say don't come to EK because the garden at their accommodation is too small you know the thread has fallen off a cliff.

[ekwhistleblower]

FP, came to the pit more than 15 years ago, got my envelope out and did exactly the same numbers as you. I was going to get a pay rise on joining and be golden. My only luxury would be a club membership because I had to be able to fill my downtime but had to give that up because there was no choice.

So what happened? As an FO I had saved only what was in my provident fund. Where had the money gone, still can't work it out! The big question is whether I will have enough money to retire on leaving and the answer is maybe but then I have had a few dodgy property deals because there was no choice.

Probably the one cost I didn't factor into the equation that hurt at the outset was the cost of keeping in touch with my home. I went back occasionally on trips but rarely saw the family, we as a family seemed to spend any leave I had off traipsing around the home country as nomads trying to catch up with friends and family. Eventually I came to resent the time and money it cost, but there was no choice.

The single biggest issue with being an expat for me is having absolutely no choice in where you live. I don't mean a Jumeirah vs Meydan, I mean San Diego vs Minneapolis, actually working close enough to your roots. As your family grows and your family at home ages you struggle to keep up. Eventually you let your roots die or you leave. The accommodation is palatial if you come from an appartment but otherwise rather disappointing but we all made do because there was no choice.

As to the package here, the issue is that it spirals downwards and that some in the leadership seem to want to turn aviation into a 24 hour office job with 2 days off a week. They do not understand from their First Class seat on a vacation why anyone would get tired. This means the rosters are artificially destroyed even though there is no additional benefit or cost to the company but we all made do with it because there was no choice.

The root cause of all of these issues is a disrespectful culture that views employees as liabilities. A vindictive attitude to crew from people that are not in their positions due to innate competence. When anyone tries to make a positive change or raise an issue that costs nothing, they are told directly in these precise words in front of their peers, "if you don't like it, leave" but we all made do because we had no choice.

Note "had" and that is why people have started to leave. I do not regret my time here but I am very disappointed that the culture inside the airline does not match the positive brand portrayed to the outside world. It could easily change to a positive respectful culture, the executive board have that choice.

As a young lad come along and see you may well love it but just remember one thing; you still have a choice.

[Buford]

Also, if you decide to start a family soon after you get here be aware that you need to be in the company a certain amount of time before maternity costs are covered AND if your child is born with anything congenital then insurance won't cover it.

[nolimitholdem]

From a personal point of view I therefore cannot see how my life could not be better in Dubai.

Then - and I mean this quite sincerely - why don't you just join, and make your life better? Why listen to people who are actually living there and working for EK, when you've got it all figured out from Europe?

Things are in a state at EK that they have never been before, with people leaving, and not joining. If I was on the outside considering joining, this would alarm me, and I would try and understand why. The reasons have been given ad infinitum on this forum. If you choose to believe your own calculations, that is indeed your own choice, and one you will have to live with. But as ekwhistleblower's excellent post says: at this point you still have a choice.

You will not have the choice to leave so easily, once there. Not unless you relish the 45K, 5 yr bond. And you will certainly have no freedom to make most choices after joining.

[polax52]

Flying Pig:

It's valid of course what you say but the Airline industry in the middle east is currently expanding so fast that none of the major players can find sufficient, quality, crew. Why would you choose to go to the company that from these threads clearly is probably among the worst to work for, I believe its because the marketing department could sell poo as chocolate. One guide that I find fairly accurate is the less said about an Airline on this website, the better it is, you always get some guys that want to put you off. In the case of Emirates people are obviously fatigued and operating in a forever deteriorating environment.

My advice is to look at all the Asian and Middle east options before you choose.

[halas]

Not much is said on here about an airline in Abu Dabi Doo.

They must be a terrific bunch to work for :} :hmm: :ugh:

halas

[flareflyer]

Guys it seems we will have some relief with our rosters......
it seems that 300 new joiners from the subcontinent are ready......
They only need to check if the logbooks are real or not......

[Schnowzer]

Speedy,

That is a brilliant picture, never a truer word.

[flyingpig1987]

Why listen to people who are actually living there and working for EK, when you've got it all figured out from Europe?


I haven't got it figured out. That's why I am on here. The only thing I have figured out in my relatively short time in this career is that no one has it figured out. Name any airline in the world and you could find a group of pilots who would tell you not to come near it. Is there anywhere that could be considered the perfect airline - I'm not so sure any more. I have friends in airlines that I would think were great and they too are desperate to get out.


I am here trying to put my view point across of what I believe I see sitting on this side of the fence. I am trying to establish all the facts and that is why I am looking at great detail as to what many on the inside are saying. However what I will say is that here in Blighty things are also expensive, with little pay, no time off, max hours and management that don't care.


Is it therefore not just a case of finding somewhere that ticks more of the boxes rather than all of the boxes?

[SubsonicMortal]

flyingpig1987,

Is there anywhere that could be considered the perfect airline - I'm not so sure any more. I have friends in airlines that I would think were great and they too are desperate to get out.

Which airlines are you referring to? Since you're from Europe, I can't imagine working for one of the legacy Airlines could be such a bad gig i.e British Airways, Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Swiss etc. Working for them compared to this region is night and day apart. That I'm willing to bet a big sum on.

[polax52]

Flying Pig:

If I was considering coming to this region right now then my order of preferred employer would be:
1. The UAE flag
2. Qatar
3. Saudia
4.5.6. Turkish/Emirates/Fly Dubai (joint 4th to 6th)

[flyingpig1987]

Well being from Britain I hear many stories coming from BA. However I treat these with the same reservation as all stories I hear of differing airlines. However I do believe a certain number of orange bus flyers who got in to BA found themselves wanting to head back after a few years. I'm also sure that BA as with all other airlines is not what is used to be.

[170to5]

fp

As with everything, working here depends on where you come from, as with everything...if you were born and raised on the streets of Mumbai, for example, then moving to Nigeria and working as a Bellboy would pretty much be a dream come true. I would not enjoy it as much.

In other words...

A slap in the face is better than a kick in the b**ls...it is not, however, better than a free lunch.

Get my drift?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Flying pig - presume if you mean short career you were born in 1987. If so everywhere is hard work these days. However, in the UK you might think pay is low, not enough time off but compared to other places e.g some places in Europe life is a luxury and management do care.
In my humble experience PIlots in general do have a tendency to moan, if your stuck in a tube for fourteen hours there is plenty of time to put the world right and throw out a few un substantiated rumors just for a laugh. However, there is no doubt that EK crews are over worked because of the nature of their job. They are also a captive audience in dxb. If EK want to fix it a complete shift change is required which means numbers of crews

[GA Button]

One of the big advantages of working for airlines in the UK is that you can voice opinions and raise objections without concern. Can't do that here.
You also have a free healthcare system which on the whole works well and is actually interested in your health rather than how deep your pockets are.
Same goes for the education system which, despite its detractors, is amongst the best in the world whereas the UAE system is near the bottom.
Finally, don't be fooled by the "tax free" salary - you will get robbed by day to day living costs.
I'm not sure a real value can be put on freedom of speech - millions have died for it.
You can make a life here but it requires massive patience, adaptability and a great sense of humour.
Good luck in your decision - you seem like a reasonable chap, I'm sure you'll be fine :-)

[gardenshed]

Perhaps if our glorious leaders did some of the below, EK might achieve two things.

7 Management Lessons From the Guy Who Saved Continental (http://www.freeenterprise.com/story/management-advice-from-gordon-bethune-the-ceo-who-saved-continental-airlines/)

1 Make large profits to help pay off Dubai's financial hole and make us one of the best paid airlines going.
2 Save cash by not having to replace the people who have left due to the p**s poor management style and crap endured here on a daily basis and make EK the airline of choice again.
Rocket science it isn't.

[speed2height]

You have to understand that over here we have more than their fair share of villains, thugs and hoodlums masquerading as leaders.

When considering becoming an expat pilot over here, you are probably thinking what being here can do for you?. Management attitude is the same. It is what they can get out of it, and its every man for himself.

Ultimately being and expat is sc*b labour, either flying or management. Who is actually concerned about what happens here in 10 years?

[palm]

From a recent "managers" pilots meeting, attrition rate is 3.5% and the recruitment is doing fine. Life is great, 92 hours is the norm and everybody seems to be happy......:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::}:}:}:}:}:}

[SOPS]

Living in that river in Egypt.....

[Gander_Radio]

Can someone explain to me the nature of fatigue if one flies 92 hours long haul every month? Isn't that three to four ultra long flights per month? There is definitely something that I am missing here. I am sure I'll get a couple of responses of "what planet are you living on" and the like....I apologize but bare with me explaining that, I really feel I'm missing something or misunderstand how the hours are calculated.

Thank you all.

[Rather Be Skiing]

Can someone explain to me the nature of fatigue if one flies 92 hours long haul every month? Isn't that three to four ultra long flights per month? There is definitely something that I am missing here. I am sure I'll get a couple of responses of "what planet are you living on" and the like....I apologize but bare with me explaining that, I really feel I'm missing something or misunderstand how the hours are calculated. Thank you all.

Yes that would be true. Except we don't fly just long haul. For some, no long hauls at all.

Along with the long flights our schedules include shorter layover destinations and regional type turnarounds. Much of this work includes back side of the clock timings. Check in at 0100 and finish at 1300 sort of timing.

Our monthly schedules are limited not just by hours but we also have the number of days off per month artificially restricted.

[SOPS]

And there is minimum recovery time between flights.

[Mr Good Cat]

If you think that 4 ULRs per month would be easy you are in for a shock.

900 hours per year in LoCo short-haul may be physically demanding, sleep-wise it's a somewhat assured regularity.

The other major factor out here is chronic stress. In your home country you go home and are in your comfort zone. As an expat (especially in certain countries/cultures) you never really get away from work. You have all the 'annoyances' of a country that is very different from your own (traffic, fear culture, corruption etc) and this slowly builds up in the background without you realising it is affecting you. Marriages that do well at home easily break up. You my find yourself angry with family, neighbours and work. Most people are here for selfish reasons and will do anything to protect their own little bubble... especially your 'leaders' at work. It is most definitely not a nice 'atmosphere' to be involved in.

And it IS getting much worse by the day. It's rat-eat-rat. Period.

[alwayzinit]

Gander Radio, if you are having a problem understanding how 92 hrs pm and ULRs totally upset your bio rhythms. I would suggest you try going day, night, night, day, none stop for a week. Then extrapolate that feeling by a factor of 48.

[The Turtle]

And TJ nobody can fault you for that

[SOPS]

And TJ go for it and enjoy. But it will get you down eventually, the trick is to pick when.

[Touchthestars]

Good advice from SOPS here TJ!

[SOPS]

And given the events of the last week, let's not talk about the EK "threat based" sick policy.

[chai ja]

Anyone with a UK EASA licence put their B777 rating on the licence?
Been offered a job somewhere I actually would like to live, but really I need to put the jet on my UK EASA licence, anyone got any experience with this? I've heard 500 hours on type minimum!?
Any info appreciated!

[maxphlyer]

Just put an GCAA Business TR on my EASA ticket. You need 500 hrs on the type and an LST.

[Geebz]

One of my FOs the other day was telling me about his buddy who flys for EK as a 777 Captain. This FO told me his take home salary was MORE than the EK 777 skipper. He's a NB FO. Whoa! What does that tell you about EK salaries?

He also mentioned how much harder EK pilots work to get their salary, something about increasing overtime threshold to 90 hrs vs 80 where it use to be.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that pilots will leave the M.E. for better pastures with info like that.

I fly for a US legacy carrier, btw.

[fatbus]

10% of the pilots are American and yet 90% of this thread is about them.
If all US pilots left EK would manage.
3%,leaving = @ 10 per month

[donpizmeov]

Come on Geebz, you can do better than that. Still getting back to India much?

[thrustidle74]

I wonder how often the seniority list gets updated. I'd have thought that'll be automatically synchronised on daily basis.
At the moment no new joiners for the last 24 days, of course if it's not synchronised daily that's a different story, just my observation.

[The Turtle]

Geebz you would be misinformed. I have spoken to a few mates at the US Majors (Southwest and United) who are 7+yr narrowbody FO. They do not make close to what a 7 year EK Captain (with housing allowance and tax breaks)


roster?.....that's a different story :mad:

[maligno]

Uuuuups! Thats why they dream flying in EK...they have no idea the kind of concentration camp is EK...good luck to those who volunteer to be a new modern slave...

[positive stability]

Mr GC wrote a good post (#116). I completely agree with his statement about the physically demanding LoCo operations whilst doing 900 hours per year, the saviour though is you generally also get to sleep in your own bed and live in your own chosen location. The big problem with EK is that the physical demands are exacerbated with different time zones, un-friendly flying schedules, 16 hour duty periods with 24 stopovers, punitive reactions to any negatively perceived actions, ongoing arbitrary negative changes to the working conditions (many a list has been made on various threads on prune) and to cap it all off a wonderful gem inbound from the GCAA stating that none of your time in the ****tiest bunks ever designed for an aircraft will count toward your flying hour totals.

My reason for departing is the sum of the problems above, but the primary reason has been on-going fatigue. CAP371 never took into account ULR’s with minimum turnarounds with the back of the clock type flying we do. And CAP 371 never interpreted that time spent in a bunk was time that meant you were going to completely rest, every time. One recent flight sleep was impossible in the bunk due to constant turbulence and babies crying. The new target will be very, how can I say it without alarming the press, extremely fatiguing! One only has to look back to the Melbourne incident with the cumulative hours the captain was going into that particular flight and then see how quickly the company was to deny fatigue was in any way a contributing factor to the event.

Here are some points to ponder regarding fatigue in this company;
There is a limitation of being able to swap between east and west, this was a rule invented by the company in order to prevent swaps, I mean fatigue. Yet when you are on reserve you can be sent 6 hours west then getting back to DXB having had minimum rest then be sent 6 hours east, go figure?
Remember the increase in productivity to help out the poor ailing company, which became the new target, what will happen when CAR OPS part 1 is implemented, digest the contents of this link on pprune;
http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/555784-new-gcaa-flight-time-limitations-could-not-any-worse.html (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/555784-new-gcaa-flight-time-limitations-could-not-any-worse.html)
Leave, apart from throwing 4 days in here and there (which would count as base days off anyway), why can’t one get a decent amount of leave which also means a few days off before and afterwards (like our fellow office workers). Leave enables me to attempt a recovery toward normality but it is abundantly clear now that they don’t care about leave or they would manage the numbers more sensibly.

EK is a LoCo long haul operation that pushes every boundary when it comes to squeezing its staff (Engineers, CC plus many others as well). I now know it is not sustainable for my health and unless you are a super human, I don’t think it is sustainable for any human being. But then again you can always leave, as I was told and am in the process of now doing. If only the management managed people instead of numbers, it could be such a great place to work.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/28/germanwings-crash-exposes-pressure-pilotes (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/28/germanwings-crash-exposes-pressure-pilotes)

As a final thought, does anyone know what level of personal insurance as an EK employee can one expect going to some of the places we fly too?

[kingpost]

The rest time you referred to does not count towards the cumulative duty time, it does count towards the yearly block hours!!

[cerbus]

It does not count to the pilots yearly cumulative total because EK has numerous pilots over 900 hours for the year.

[harry the cod]

Positive Stability

Great post but you lost my vote at Melbourne. The Captain had spent the whole day windsurfing, hardly a sign that he was fatigued!

Whilst the Company undoubtedly has a responsibility for fatigue management, something they do poorly, we too must take ownership.

Harry

[White Knight]

Harry. You took the words words out of my mouth re MEL. And it was an ACCIDENT, not Incident according to the Aussie investigation! Nothing to do with fatigue; just a poor operation... Look at the CVR transcript...

[donpizmeov]

Well good news chaps. Letter on the portal stating 25% increase on basic salary, and 10% on flying pay effective 01 May 2015. Overtime threshold stays the same.


Seems we only get to hear good news once a year recently.

[sluggums]

I did like the part regarding the drop in OT threshold to 78hrs for those of us on the 'main' fleet.

[my salami]

Nice try Don...:E

[skype]

Don can you provide link to such advise..... jumped outta bed this morning to check emails, hoping the messiah had came and Emirates would be saved from current insanity, common sense would prevail.


Then I realised needed my annual Common Sense Vaccination being April 1st


LMAO...

[Kamelchaser]

Yes, a bit like the article in this morning's "The National" about 4x4's being banned from UAE roads from April 1 next year.

UAE to ban SUVs by early 2016 | The National (http://www.thenational.ae/uae/uae-to-ban-suvs-by-early-2016)

I can just see all the blacked out Hummers being traded down to Prius hybrids..yeah, like that's going to happen.

As likely as taking assault rifles off the Yanks and only allowing them to kill with handguns.

[bia botal]

Well one thing that is no joke is that what ever the profit amount one thing can be certain, the target for this financial year will be staggering, we may avail of a tasty profit share and pay raise but it will be the last for a while, the company will struggle through the next 12 months, warnings at my last wash up of constant 95 hr months will come true, as will min days off per month, any cream we get this month will quickly be soured by limited time off and fatigue. Allah help us if something spikes the price of oil because this years targets will be based on current oil prices!

[Plank Cap]

Hello, April 1st anyone...??!!

[poitiers]

hi all,
where can i find the most accurate information on Emirates Pay/roster/accommodation/carreer etc package on this site or elsewhere?
tks

[dum dum pacheco]

Hey transport jock,
You said:


ps....EK also apparently said they would take guys with Q400 only time... Thats how desperate they are getting..




I woder just Q400 or also ATRs Hércules...etc
Thanks

[lol777]

It will include ATR and hercs and so on. I was at that road show. One can see they are very short of crew. And like jock says people are leaving here like crazy. To the far east and middle east. SA is on the brink of collapse and probably civil war. Heard SAX and link already lost a lot of pilots.

[EK380]

No turbo prop guys for now, because of the requirement for actual base training guys... Notice I wrote for now! Waiver for base training to be replaced by zero flight time in the sim is JET time above 10T, if I remember well.

[flying headbutt]

...applied 10000 plus hours, Boeing & Airbus. Never heard a thing.

[lol777]

The way we understood it was it was still gonna take a while if they can get it anyway. But the shortage looks like it might in the future take it that route.

[SuckItUp]

I ran the last 12 months of EK Pilot Seniority Lists in some comparison software. Here are the facts for the May 2014 to May 2015 period:


- 123 resignations, terminations and "retirements" etc. :D
- 300 new joiners.:oh:


As far as percentages go, if you go on the current pilot numbers of 3776 then that's a 12 month attrition rate of 3.25%. If you go on the May 2014 Pilot numbers of 3598 then it's an attrition rate of 3.41%.


Next "wash up", see how those numbers go down when the BS is flowing thick and fast.:ugh:


It would be excellent and a lot more informative for those who have watched the recruitment DVD too many times, while tucking into the coolaid, if one of our more economically savvy comrades could come up with the real statistics on how much our TC's such as hourly rate and salary against inflation and costs of living in Dubai have slide down the crapper over say the last 1, 2, 5 and 10 years. Then we would all have the facts instead of a post that drifts like the infernal sand.........:rolleyes:


Remember, a good Pilot knows he should just SuckItUp...........:ugh:

[WJAPilot]

Hey SuckitUp

Based on those numbers what do you feel the current time is based on a 3% attrition for an upgrade is nowadays.

Cheers

[SOPS]

So, to use your figures another way, Suck It Up, nearly 42% of all new hires simply replaced those that left. I would like to see figures on what that cost.

[SuckItUp]

I'm not sure WJA.

That would be a tricky one that would involve a lengthy hybrid equation involving a heady dose of chaos theory, a factor to account for extreme levels of MGMT dishonesty and some tricky quantum way of quantifying non drinking, gym going, masters in aviation paperwork studying pilots willingness to beleive in the recruitment dvd, and non willingness to see what this industry has done to its skilled and dedicated professionals over the last 20 years or so..........:ouch:

I think we'd have to go to HR for help with generating that........:ugh:

I've heard that management has forecasts of it going to 10 years, yet they advertise, even on this site that the young guys fresh out of school can expect quick, wide body upgrades. I'M not smart enough for that, but my guess through experience would beleive nothing you are being told, unless your Kalman triple mix BS filter is set on maximum, and something coherent, and that will save them money or gains a staggering productivity increase at our cost comes out.

SOPS, yes that is staggering figure, 42%. Probably an acceptable amount if you are only a moderately ambitious carrier with a small yearly fleet or route structure growth. What does it mean here though???


Remember, a good Pilot knows he should just SuckItUp......:ugh:

[777Goose]

Hey WJA, with your experience wait for 777 DEC or bust.
The Goose has initiated migration :)

[harry the cod]

At training college recently and got talking to an ex Ryanair F/O. Scruffy, miserable and no input all day. Not happy as he's going to 'have to do at least' 5 years before he gets a shot at command. Some of his fellow joiners are thinking of leaving too.

Excuse my ignorance here but some of these guys are late 20's with no previous command. They joined EK with 2500 hours and they're bleating due to a 5 year wait? Really? Perhaps they should have gone to BA and waited a minimum of 15 years for a short haul command. I've heard that 'Y' generation have a reputation for 'this is my divine right' attitude but that is taking the proverbial big time.

Rant over, back to my Tea and toast.

Harry

[Kapitanleutnant]

Oh Harry

You're so…… British! :-)

K

[harry the cod]

Thank you dear boy! ;)

H

[Emma Royds]

Excuse my ignorance here but some of these guys are late 20's with no previous command. They joined EK with 2500 hours and they're bleating due to a 5 year wait? Really? Perhaps they should have gone to BA and waited a minimum of 15 years for a short haul command. I've heard that 'Y' generation have a reputation for 'this is my divine right' attitude but that is taking the proverbial big time.

Whilst there is no excuse for dressing like and having a face like a torn scone, perhaps any discontent is simply a case of 'the quicker I can get my command then the quicker I can leave this place'. Especially so if they are thinking of their exit strategy so soon.

[skywardpiles]

6 months ago crew control were swapping people off trips so they would not reach productivity. Now there are more and more examples of almost centurion rosters (100 hrs with no augment).

I do not see any initiation to even acknowledge there is a crewing problem other than some recruitment road trips. With the extra SEA, DPS, MCO coming up, this is a frog boiling in the pot while driving into a train wreck!

Other than the inevitable refactoring of the factoring of stick and bunk time, they have squeezed everything from the pilot group that I can think of or personally give.

Flight Ops has lost the confidence of its pilots to the point where THY is attractive. Unless there are some serious contract enhancements and reductions in hours (which will take years to realize), 2015 -2016 is going to see serious resignations.

Wait, time in the lav is technically not on the flight deck.. Problem solved, deduct toilet time from counting towards the absolute flight time limits.

See everyone at the THY briefing, I'll be the one with the pile pillow.

[highlight]

Wait, time in the lav is technically not on the flight deck.. Problem solved, deduct toilet time from counting towards the absolute flight time limits.


Please don't give'em any ideas!!!

[delorean79]

Count the time over Desdi towards the Annual Leave.

[kungfu panda]

Count the time over Desdi towards the Annual Leave.

Exactly, I was travelling back to Hong Kong the other day from Europe with you guys and we were 90 minutes in the hold on the way in to Dubai. I mean being so inefficient you deserve to be on a 92 hour month. No more sympathy....

[fatbus]

I use to enjoy the morning European flights but now avoid coming back at midnight.

[Kapitanleutnant]

90 Minutes at Desdi!! Must have been those foggy days a week or two ago.

Cat IIIB stuff and all…

K

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I ran the last 12 months of EK Pilot Seniority Lists in some comparison software. Here are the facts for the May 2014 to May 2015 period:
- 123 resignations, terminations and "retirements" etc.
- 300 new joiners.
As far as percentages go, if you go on the current pilot numbers of 3776 then that's a 12 month attrition rate of 3.25%. If you go on the May 2014 Pilot numbers of 3598 then it's an attrition rate of 3.41%.


When looking at this you also need to comment on aircraft numbers e.g. new aircraft / sold/retired. If the fleet has stood still then not bad, if it's increased then pressure is on

[fatbus]

Think that 350 were for growth and 150 for attrition .

[cerbus]

How many pilots are going to leave in the summer?

[Deep and fast]

Apparently they are considering not counting the time the autopilot is on. :E

[sluggums]

... or time on the ****ter.

[Kapitanleutnant]

If one does submit a resignation and has vacation time accrued, what is happening regards that leave? Is it being given during the 90 period or is EK so short of pilots that they will just pay it out when you leave?

K

[Mr Good Cat]

It's calculated pro-rata and you should get what you are owed as calculated per the Employee Regulations Manual.

i.e. you will get what you've acrrued plus the amount pro-rata for the portion of the year you worked. Conversely you could owe them money if you've taken more than your share of this year's leave..

[Kapitanleutnant]

Thanks Mr. Goodcat…

But what I'm asking is: If someone resigns today and has a balance of say 30 days leave that he hasn't taken yet…. Is EK all the sudden"forced upon him" before his 90 days are up so as to not owe him any outstanding leave balance he may have…. OR…. are they so short of pilots currently that they won't offer that leave to him and instead, fly the resigning pilot fully for the 90 days and then just pay him extra for the excess leave balance when he leaves after the 90 days?

Apologies for not being more clear in my original question.

K

[SOPS]

I can answer this KL, PM me, I have been told to let go from this forum, so I will post to you as PM.

[cerbus]

The answer to your question is Emirates would much rather pay you a fraction of what is owed to you in the form of vacation pay at a daily rate then give you a whole month off.
Also the airline is so short pilots right now they can't afford to give you any time off even if you already earned your hard earned vacation days.
SOPS stay on the forum and remind us how great it is to leave Emirates. So many pilots just want to bury their head in the sand and tell themselves everything is going to be okay. Something about a fiddler and Rome burning comes to mind.

[jidder]

Please don't tell me you did what prats told you to do whilst at EK:ugh: Don't listen to them now, if you have some valid info or point of view then let us hear it:ok:

I'm sure you can manage that between walking the dogs and doing the garden.

J:E

[framer]

See everyone at the THY briefing, I'll be the one with the pile pillow
Heh heh, that was pretty funny :p