Wall Street Journal article on EK crewing problem.

[helen-damnation]

http://http://www.wsj.com/articles/labor-strife-an-unwelcome-novelty-for-emirates-airline-1426857624

[Buford]

The link wouldn't work.

[checcker10]

Try here.

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/558080-reap-what-you-sow-ek-5.html

[Rather Be Skiing]

Here it is:

DUBAI—Emirates Airline is fighting an unusual headwind: labor trouble.

In the U.S. and Europe, the Dubai-owned carrier, the world’s largest international airline by traffic, is fighting accusations by rivals that it benefits from unfair government subsidies. Back home in Dubai, however, it is engaged in a rare tussle with its own cabin-crew staff.

According to current and former staff, cabin-crew employees have been complaining internally about a host of issues, including accusations the airline is asking crew to work more hours and shortening layovers between connecting flights. In response, Emirates is hosting a series of unprecedented meetings where staff can air grievances directly to senior management. It also recently suspended a performance-evaluation system of cabin staff—conducted after each flight—that employees complained was too critical.

Labor trouble is a frequent headache for global carriers, where strikes and other job action can lead to disrupted service. But in Dubai, a semiautonomous monarchy that is part of the United Arab Emirates, strikes and unions are banned. Emirates has long been a demanding employer, especially for cabin-crew personnel—requiring rigorous training, including in etiquette and grooming.
ENLARGE
An Emirates Airbus A380 flies above rooftops as it comes in to land at London’s Heathrow Airport. PHOTO: AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGESBut cabin-crew staff also enjoy benefits not typical at many other airlines, including free accommodation and transportation to and from work. That has all helped keep a lid on open labor strife among its roughly 20,000 cabin-crew employees—at least until now. The dissent comes as the airline is growing rapidly and trying to recruit aggressively to fill its cabins. Emirates carried 44.5 million passengers in its last financial year, and forecasts 70 million passengers by 2020.
It plans to hire 5,000 more cabin staff this year, to accommodate growth and attrition. That fast clip is straining current staff, according to some employees.
Flight attendants say they are having to work more shifts, with shorter layovers. First-class attendants, who typically work their way up to their postings in premium cabins, are being asked to work in economy to make up for shortages there, according to these employees. Many cabin-crew staff had some annual leave allocation deferred last year, they said.

‘There are a number of subjects that are causing concern at the moment’
—Terry Daly, Emirates’ senior vice president of service delivery, in an email to staff.
Emirates said in a statement that it hasn’t shortened layover times, and any changes to staff routines are exceptions that comply with safety rules. Staff have to work in other cabins at times, the carrier said. Emirates didn’t immediately respond to a request seeking comment about deferred leave.

The company also declined to comment generally about cabin-crew complaints, and it declined to make executives available to comment for this article. Saif Al Suwaidi, director general of the General Civil Aviation Authority, the U.A.E.’s airline regulator, said issues about airline labor conditions are a matter to be sorted out between staff and management.

The new gripe sessions announced earlier this year are one way Emirates is trying to manage the complaints. In an email in January to staff announcing the meeting, Terry Daly, Emirates’ senior vice president of service delivery, wrote he was “aware that there are a number of subjects that are causing concern at the moment.” He called the meetings “an opportunity to talk about these directly with me,” according to a copy of the email reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

Emirates has held three sessions so far. The first meeting, held last month at Emirates’ Dubai headquarters, dragged on for double the scheduled two hours, according to three attendees. In a statement, Emirates said the forums last month were just one of many ways employees could communicate with management. “We have always encouraged open dialogue,” the carrier said.

Emirates Chief Executive Tim Clark has recently weighed in. Late last year, he started to send a quarterly “update” email to employees, soliciting feedback from staff. But he also warned about gossip mongering: “I’m astonished by the range of colorful stories that sometimes do the rounds in our company,” he wrote in October. His advice, he continued, according to a copy of the email reviewed by the Journal, is to “keep well away from naysayers and gossips and focus instead on our ambition to be one of the most loved lifestyle brands.”

Write to Rory Jones at [email protected]

[The Outlaw]

Perhaps Mr. Jones would like to have a look at some of the complaints on this site with regard to issues the pilots are facing at "the worlds most loved brand".

[Snake man]

Perhaps our management would make available to Mr Jones the results of the recent Employee Survey?

[cactus98]

Hello RORY....here's my STORY!

[in freedom]

Of course Rory Jones is not even revealing the tip of the iceberg since he lives in Dubai and works for the Abu Dhabi office of the WSJ. Nowhere is he mentioning Dragana's site although he is clearly a reader.

But it is a start to put the labour and safety issues on the table especially in the U.S.

Interesting read on freedom of speech in the UAE:
Interviewing the NYU Prof Banned From the UAE -- NYMag (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/03/interviewing-the-nyu-prof-banned-from-the-uae.html)

[Buford]

Found this too...interview between Rory and TC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDXORhEbJfo

[The Outlaw]

@ 29:40 STC makes in interesting comment re: social media.

Lets hope he fixes any in house problems as fast as he reacts to changes in tech as he states.


https://youtu.be/VjHePahW7Os

[Nikita81]

Pilot Workload at Emirates Under Question - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/pilot-workload-at-emirates-under-question-1428587945)

[LHR Rain]

It is about time someone or some entity investigates EK. I can't believe the word hasn't been heard outside the Middle East before.

[fliion]

That article will be fully exploited by the subsidy gang including the all powerful ALPA PAC.

The sad thing is - nothing about the article is untrue.

Wagons starting to circle methinks / or noose tightening?

The shortsightedness of it all is - if there is an accident/ incident & fatigue a factor and it shows that the rules were bent to make a few extra bucks ... the lawyers better be good.

Because the insurance companies swill tell the carrier :

"wait a second - you told us they didn't start work until an hour before push back per OMA - which is absolutely not the case. You have voided your cover, adios"

Someone upstairs needs to wake up.

f.

[Plank Cap]

Well done Rory, well written, and about time someone picked up this story.

Post GermanWings crash, how soon before our very own pilot-friendly company psychology department (irony there folks..) starts to enjoy an ever-increasing ability to mess with people's careers? They'll be out to assess just how serially depressed, upset and generally p***ed off the majority of EK pilots are - and guess what, they'll be right. They'd best be careful just how far they start to probe, and just what they wish to look at.....

You don't have to be nuts to fly in the Middle East, but it sure helps!

[Nikita81]

Well done Rory, well written, and about time someone picked up this story.

Mr. Rory picked up this story long time ago. It's just that picking up the story is not enough in the conditions where everyone is afraid to speak up and testify about the truth.

I guess that Mr.Rory finally found someone to speak with, but it was a bloody job I suppose.

Passive waiting for someone to pick up the story is not enough. If you want something to change or your voice to be heard, writing on PPRuNE is not enough. It's actually very far from enough.

[Trader]

This article will be just the tip of the iceberg if the news media decides to follow it. There are more than enough ex-EK pilots who are willing to talk that, should the media be willing, they will have more than enough 'proof'.

I've said before that should EK have an accident that the Guardian or the US tv show 60 Minutes would have a PANEL of 15 or 20 ex EK pilots talking about the issues.

Now, even without an accident, it is starting to brew. With ALPA and the US airlines looking to slow EK etc. this might just blow up.

I'd also contend that the unmentionable airline might not be too happy that EK's shenanigans (too put it politely) might cause them some issues.

[Mach_Krit]

"though it called those speaking out an unhappy “vocal minority.” " (WSJ Article)

not really...judging by my experience with colleagues on the line this past year...

[flareflyer]

Interesting times ahead.......

[humptybump]

Indeed Emirates management has abused, alienated and overworked its pilot group, from its junior FO to its senior TRE, one only needs to be on the line to know this.
Above all Emirates management has routinely, consistently, systematically lied to this dedicated workforce, eventually braking the thrust bond.
Emirates shouldn't have broken the thrust bond with its most critically safety sensitive workforce!
This is a Muslim country but these people seem drunk our their own success story.
These visionary leaders should know better...
There will be one day, sooner or later, in some shape or format a hefty price to pay.
They have just gone to far....and the general public most know
Hate the cliche but, if you think safety is expensive...

Well done WSJ

Humpty

[Rim-job]

Very interesting indeed...

[Jet II]

Interesting times ahead.......

Dont kid yourself - you get the same complaints about mismanagement at every major airline in the world, there is nothing special about EK. T&C's throughout the industry have been dropping since Carter deregulated the US in '78.

[cerbus]

Yes conditions and even pay did drop for awhile but now with the current pilot shortage the pilots are getting back what they lost but at a slower pace than we would like.
I haven't heard the same complaints from pilots at the legacy airlines. They have complaints but those complaints are so different from we as Emirates pilots have. They complain when they work 12 days a month or don't get an extra 7 days off after their vacation. We think it is a good month when we are "only" rostered 90 hours a month.
It does make many a sane man wonder why EK is doing what they are doing to us. Turning the screws on us when most pilots can and want to leave to better opportunities.
Maybe with this WSJ article things will change. The article didn't even real touch on the real issues effecting Emirates pilots, rostering patterns and hours worked. I don't think things will change unless something serious happens. The media couldn't be bothered and the public just doesn't care.

[TangoUniform]

jetII,
If you have been in the industry for awhile, you will know of downs and highs. Right now the industry is skyrocketing, specially in the U.S., China and elsewhere. Some places not so much. But EK has publicaly said it will report its highest profits in its almost 30 years of its existence. Will our "temporary" 92 hours reduce? NO Will overtime (productivity) be allowed? NO Will al pilots be awarded their contracted 42 days of leave? NO Will pilots get monthly credit for ground schools, sim sessions, or any required CBT? NO Do I need to continue? NO Except to say, compensation was not mentioned by this poster. We will know in a week or two whether or not EK is serious about IT'S commitment towards the employees

When the industry has been down, the EK siren song was enticing. Not so much now when looking at industry profit shares, pay rises, etc. Take a look at a legacy U.S. wide body international pilot's schedule/roster. You would be shocked at what an EK pilot's roster would look like in comparison.

EK prides itself in being an industry leader, but refuses to acknowledge the contributions all of its employees, except for a few meaningless emails.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Well said. T. U!

A colleague of mine showed me a roster he had obtained of a 777. It was not really believable compared to what EK forces upon us each and every month. It looked like part time work, yet had about 80 hours of flying. Something like 10 days of actual fly.

Wow...!

[SOPS]

Just to throw something in the mix...it's been about 5 weeks now since I did my last flight. Sitting at home, the biggest pressure I have not had is counting down the days until I return to Dubai, as I always did while on leave.

The other thing I have found, is how much better I feel, sleeping when then sun is down, being awake when then sun is up.

And the removal of the 'EK stress' hard to explain, unless you work for EK. The constant feeling....you are only as good as your last sector...

There is a lot to fix, a big bonus IMHO do that...there is so much wrong now, so much ingrained in management it may never get fixed..beating those that remain certainly won't help...

[Broken Promises]

He added, though, the airline is monitored closely and there have been no significant complaints about safety, including via an anonymous system for reporting such issues.
Given the airline's and countries past history - including suspected wiretaps on employee phones in the distant past and insistence on access to mobile phone encryption protocols, is it any wonder that any anonymous reporting systems are treated with the utmost suspicion?

Emirates said in a statement responding to the allegations it never compromises on safety and fully complies with its regulator’s mandates.
The regulator DOES allow flight-time factoring - a dubious practice wherein time not spent at the controls is not counted towards flight time limits. Anyone who has actually flown ULR (not the management at EK) will tell you that all time in the aircraft contributes to fatigue levels. Very few countries in the world allow this practice.

The state-owned carrier, which wouldn’t make executives available for this article, also said it had a “proactive” fatigue-management procedure.
The airline often quotes the existence of a "Fatigue Reporting Monitoring System" yet time and time again; flights are originally scheduled with insufficient rest, facilities or crew. Only after an influx of fatigue reports is any change made to the pairing. Then, almost identical pairings are scheduled, again insufficiently, requiring the requisite 6 to 12 months worth of fatigue reports before any changes are made. The cynicism of the system in practice is evident to any familiar with it. The reporter should contact the EK doctor who set up the FRMS (no longer employed at EK) to find out how the Fatigue Reduction Monitoring Committee at EK works in practice.

Emirates acknowledged discontent among its more than 3,700 pilots, though it called those speaking out an unhappy “vocal minority.” It urged them to engage with management, adding it had set up an open forum for pilots to provide input.
Whether those speaking out are a minority or a majority is certainly open to debate. What isn't, is that for years, the only response from Emirates management to any displays of discontent or even concern has been; "if you don't like it, leave".

It is obvious that Emirates management and Mr. Al Redha himself consider increasing levels of pilot productivity as a bottomless well from which to continuously fish for increased profits WITHOUT considering the consequences on safety or morale. There are not many airlines in the world that are consistently scheduling their flight crews to the levels that Emirates is and none that are their direct competitors.

[golfyankeesierra]

Hi, a question,
those 90+ hours, do they include hours in the crewrest? Someone told me rest hours on augmented crew are deducted at EK? Can't imagine that is allowed for FTL calculations.
Sorry, just a curious colleague..

[xbleedstart]

I was wondering what to say?
You pretty much covered it.
I guess the biggest thing I've taken from the WSJ article is AR lying.
The fact that they lie to us is one thing but this is an all time low.
Other than that I'm shocked at the lack of response.
No wonder Emirates is getting away with the despicable way they treat their staff.

[BigGeordie]

GYS, the 90+ hrs does include crew rest time (but not ground duties and simulator or time spent on reserve/standby). We also get flight pay for the crew rest time. However, it does not count towards the flight time limitations for 30 days or 365 days.

[6100]

Most of you chaps are completely misguided in your anger toward EK management. They are no different from management in any airline around the world. The difference is the laws of the land you have chosen to live in. The same laws that give you your tax free salary, cheap maids, cheap cars, cheap fuel and expat lifestyle.

It would appear that by acceptance, most of you approve of the exploited labor that builds your villa's and cleans them for you, cleans your car, serves you at Spinneys etc, but when it is your turn to be kicked in the nuts it is unacceptable.

As can be demonstrated by the issues raised at United, management in first world countries would be doing the same if it were not for the laws of those countries that give workers rights, and allow them to stand up for them without persecution.

I find it amusing that some on this forum who accepted the poisoned chalice of EK are rooting for airlines in other countries to force better conditions in the UAE. You probably have no real idea how ludicrous it sounds to outsiders when someone who is not prepared to fight their own battles expects someone else to do it for them.

I have done my time at Emirates and now spend my time fighting for better conditions with the support of unions, equitable labor laws and my colleagues. My management is no different from yours, it is just that I can sit across the table from mine and hold them accountable when they do something that is not consistent with our contracts. I can also lobby the government for changes if necessary and I pay a high price for that privilege in the form of tax.

So if you are not happy with the laws of your adopted country, give up your tax free lifestyle and return to the first world but please stop deluding yourselves that you are any different from the man in blue overalls picking up the rubbish on the beach. All workers in the UAE are a resource to be exploited. You guys are just some of the higher paid ones.

[glofish]

Not a bad comment 6100.

The only thing i miss in your contribution is the safety aspect. I accept the poisoned chalice metaphor concerning T&C's with the impossibility of fighting cynical greed with unions and against a corrupt regulator as long as it does not touch outright safety.

But please accept that a big part of our plight in the ME, and the major reason of hoping for more articles like this one, is in the name of safety for crew and passengers, not simply for money.

It would have been worth mentioning in your lecture. :(

[Panther 88]

6100, you are correct. We just have better uniforms, sort of, and at least for the pilots, a better mode of transportation to work. And you accurately describe "their" attitude towards their minions.

There is a slight difference though. The rubbish collecter is not charged with a billion dollar/dirham asset. The cost of the a/c, the liabilities cost, the shinning jewel of Dubai, and the reputation of a worldwide corporation. Those in charge of this place need to understand that they cannot achieve their goals without a motivated and content workforce, especially in a service business.

But it' snot just the pilots, as you know. But be careful, my friend, in putting all your hopes and dreams in your Union. If need be, YOUR Union will chew you up and spit you out, just like management if it suits their aim..but better having a voice than none at all. Time and time again, unions around the world have turned their backs on their members. And that is worse than an abusive management. Ask the Americans why many of them arrived at the ME airlines, and a great majority will say because their union thought it better to not listen to their concerns. Happens a lot my friend. But again, you do have the ability to influence the wanna be managers (lifetime union reps).

But please, even though you say you spent your turn in the barrel here, save that old cliche, love it or leave it.

[VLS with ice]

This is what the UAE CAR OPS says, freely available on the GCAA website:


CAR-OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Hours (a) No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;

(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:

Two pages before you can find the definition of operating crew member:

a crew member carrying out his/her duties in an aircraft during a flight .

There is no reference whatsoever to bunk time not counting towards those hours. However, our bosses claim that because the OMA is signed off by the GCAA, everything that is in there is "legal". I'm not a lawyer, but something doesn't smell right. EK knows it, the GCAA knows it but as they both have the same boss, nothing will change. Only pressure from other legislators might do, but don't hold your breath....

[Jet II]

jetII,
If you have been in the industry for awhile, you will know of downs and highs. Right now the industry is skyrocketing, specially in the U.S., China and elsewhere. Some places not so much. But EK has publicaly said it will report its highest profits in its almost 30 years of its existence. Will our "temporary" 92 hours reduce? NO Will overtime (productivity) be allowed? NO Will al pilots be awarded their contracted 42 days of leave? NO Will pilots get monthly credit for ground schools, sim sessions, or any required CBT? NO Do I need to continue? NO Except to say, compensation was not mentioned by this poster. We will know in a week or two whether or not EK is serious about IT'S commitment towards the employees


But announcing record profits is a meaningless statement, it is simply publicity puff - the airline is bigger than it has ever been so if we were not seeing record profits then something would be seriously wrong. A more pertinent measure would be the size of the profit margin, if you know this then you can make a judgement on how well the company is doing.


EK prides itself in being an industry leader, but refuses to acknowledge the contributions all of its employees, except for a few meaningless emails.

That is the culture of the ME - if you want Western T&C's then you are looking for them in the wrong region.

[Trader]

6100, using your argument we can then hold you personally responsible for the racism in your country, the poverty in your country, the incarceration rate in your country, the wars waged by your country etc.

Of course, that viewpoint is absolutely ridiculous!

As is the idea that the people who have moved here to fly for EK are responsible for the ills that exist here or even agree with those ills.

[harry the cod]

6100

You've made a valid point, non of which I'd disagree with. Certainly for some on here, your comments may be a bitter pill to swallow. There will be plenty on these forums who use it to vent and to warn others of the worsening T&C's and whilst there's no harm in that, the issue I have is that the majority of the same moaners and complainers will not take their concerns further. Now is as good a time as any to write in and explain your concerns. For God's sake, if it's safety concerns you're worried about, use the Company provided Confidential Safety Reports. That's what they're there for and management don't get to see your name. It really doesn't get any easier than that!

As for unions, proceed with caution. BALPA, for example, is heavily biased towards BA and really achieved nothing for me in my 20 years other than take 1% of of my hard earned salary. Too many individuals with self serving interest, hidden agendas and management aspirations. Those selfish morons spoilt it for the hard workers on the Company Councils who had a genuine desire to help their fellow colleagues. Personally, I'm better off without them.

Harry

[vfenext]

Trader your post is amusing to say the least. 6100 makes some very valid points some of which may make people here feel a little uncomfortable. We are surrounded by sand and you have chosen to bury your head in it!

[Twiglet1]

Broken promise
From what I understand EK use the Boeing alertness model to measure fatigue on trip combos and crew rosters. If any fatigue management system relies on it then it has to be backed up by active crew input e.g sleep diary and motion watch, sleep plans, fatigue promotion, active pilot representation at meetings etc. From what I understand jeppesen are missing one vital ingredient - data. The module uses the karolinski sleep wake predictor to measure fatigue but only uses it to a certain
degree e.g without data the output comes out seven stages less than the real programme used by the sleepy scientists. You also then need a sleepy scientist to review the content rather than a commuter programmer. So whilst it will give a reasonable average it's just that. We also know that all pilots are different!. One thing that the swp does also is measure leisure time - in case the fatigue is carrying into it - this can also be impacted by commuting the word that goes out the window as far as pilots are concerned I guess less of a problem for EK. With days off seemingly at a premium at EK the risk to the airline is that sleep debt rolls into leisure and then the crew members use any rest days e.g before flying say in the evening to catch up on day to day chores e.g doing the school run, shopping when they should be resting for flight.
You then repeat the cycle into possible fatigue issues, remembering there is a difference between sleepy ness for the occasional ripper trip and cumulative fatigue for the daily grinder or nightly as the case maybe!

[Nikita81]

Although this is probably correct:

You probably have no real idea how ludicrous it sounds to outsiders when someone who is not prepared to fight their own battles expects someone else to do it for them.

As well as this (but this is happening from the beginning of the mankind, so nothing new here):

It would appear that by acceptance, most of you approve of the exploited labor that builds your villa's and cleans them for you, cleans your car, serves you at Spinneys etc, but when it is your turn to be kicked in the nuts it is unacceptable.


This is not (correct):

The difference is the laws...
So if you are not happy with the laws of your adopted country...

As mentioned before, EK is above Labour law in Dubai (it is not the subject of that law).

When you sign your contract with them you get different impression and they give that impression on purpose to mislead you. The fact is: they can do absolutely everything they want with you and your contract and nobody can do anything to them (including country's ministries, courts and other mechanisms of law enforcement).

So, actually, most of the people don't know that they are signing dummy contracts with EK which are not valid and can not help them in the case they feel tricked and cheated or when their contract is violated.

And here lies the responsibility of those (EK) managers which other airlines' managers do not have: they all know this fact and they all brutally abuse it for personal gain. The ones who refused to abuse it are long gone.

[Trader]

vfenext--I did not dispute the point of what goes on here at all. I dispute the concept that by choosing to work here that WE are at fault or complicit.

Claiming that WE have not fought against the other injustices and therefore have no valid cause to fight an injustice against us is not an argument..well, at least not a a good one.

Lets look at it another way. Have 6100 gone back and done anything to fight the injustices here? Does this now mean he is responsible for what occurs here?

Are the "Westerners' who buy gas for their cars responsible?

To some degree we all are, however, it is a hypocritical stand to claim that the pilots here have any responsibility while the rest, in the West, drive their SUV's and live based on an oil economy.

The crap that goes on here is appalling. But I am no more responsible for that that ANYONE else ANYWHERE else on the planet. And that will continue, as pathetic as it is, because the globe, as a whole, doesn't push for change. The same stands true for the rest of the planets injustices as well.

[glofish]

For God's sake, if it's safety concerns you're worried about, use the Company provided Confidential Safety Reports. That's what they're there for and management don't get to see your name. It really doesn't get any easier than that!

Harry, sorry, most things you write make sense. This does absolutely not and i would guess you even know it to be somewhat naive.

[harry the cod]

Naive in what sense? I take it you don't trust the Confidential system in the Company. I'm not referring to the GCAA one, but the one in EK. I would like to know why you feel qualified to make that comment as I think that's more ignorance on your part than naivety on mine. I've used the system and it worked for me. Slow, yes, but it did what it was designed to do. There is one filter and it's not management.

Don't knock it until you try it. Sitting back and accepting something's not going to work without at least trying it is just the sort of apathy we as a group should be avoiding, wouldn't you agree? We are, after all, battling for the same goals.

Harry

[BigGeordie]

Harry,

Back in the days of Ed the Talking Horse I sent an e-mail to our safety department. It ended up on AAR's desk, although he wasn't copied in on it. He decided he didn't like the tone of my words and I got hauled into the office.

Things may have changed since those days but it wasn't that long ago and I still don't believe anything in this company is confidential- you may remember not that long ago some of the findings of a "deidentified" LOSA audit were e-mailed out and they included the flight number and the date.

confidential+Emirates=I'll keep quiet thanks.

[Nikita81]

I've sent a complaint to the chairman after I have visited his office. His secretary told me to send it on her email address. I did so and after a while I got a warning email from now former HR manager not to write emails to HH and to communicate only with those whose names are in my termination letter.

So, we can say that everything that happened afterwards is the exclusive mistake of that secretary. She has decided not to forward my email to HH, she notified my managers about it instead and therefore indirectly caused everything that happened afterwards.

One secretary decides whether your letter or complaint is important and she filters everything. This is how stupid it gets inside EK. Nevertheless, this example is the proof that nothing is confidential in EK, that incompetent people decide about it and it is naive to believe that they use the system in any other way than to protect themselves in front of HH, who is, himself, probably unaware of the extent of discontent in his own company.

[Kamelchaser]

What a disgrace that the confidential reporting system is anything but.

But management will no doubt claim that the lack of reports shows there is nothing to hide, rather than the real fact that the entire system is compromised.

[Curry Goat]

SOPS. Believe the individual to which you refer, also filed an ASR or CSR that implicated him, not the confidential one. As an aside, I congratulate you on your escape, but not sure why you feel the need to stir the pot. Cut the cord man!

[vfenext]

Agree with Curry. SOPS, you're sounding like a retiree with too much time on his hands. Do some gardening.

[Nikita81]

497 posts and still sounds like a plain troll. :D

[golfyankeesierra]

GYS, the 90+ hrs does include crew rest time (but not ground duties and simulator or time spent on reserve/standby). We also get flight pay for the crew rest time. However, it does not count towards the flight time limitations for 30 days or 365 days.
There is no reference whatsoever to bunk time not counting towards those hours. However, our bosses claim that because the OMA is signed off by the GCAA, everything that is in there is "legal". I'm not a lawyer, but something doesn't smell right. EK knows it, the GCAA knows it but as they both have the same boss, nothing will change. Only pressure from other legislators might do, but don't hold your breath.... :sad::sad:

Geordie and VLS, thanks for the info.
These rules appear to me as plain illegal.
I would think this is good ammo for an article as well. Have not read anything about that before.
Unbelievable, that EASA and FAA allow such tricks. Is there any US or EU airline around that does the same?

[Kapitanleutnant]

I've heard that when the EASA rules come into effect in July, that factoring will be a thing of the past. But, somehow, someway EK will find a way to "interpret" a paragraph which completely allows them to do it a bit sneakier than any other airline… and probably get away with it!

K

[golfyankeesierra]

Ah, so that is meant by "factoring".
Read the term before but didn't understand the meaning.

[VLS with ice]

As far as I can find, EASA ftl have 1000 hrs in 12 months...

[VLS with ice]

ORO.FTL.210 Flight times and duty periods

(a) The total duty periods to which a crew member may be assigned shall not exceed:

(1) 60 duty hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(2) 110 duty hours in any 14 consecutive days; and

(3) 190 duty hours in any 28 consecutive days, spread as evenly as practicable throughout that period.

(b) The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed:

(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;

(2) 900 hours of flight time in any calendar year; and

(3) 1 000 hours of flight time in any 12 consecutive calendar months.

(c) Post-flight duty shall count as duty period. The operator shall specify in its operations manual the minimum time period for post-flight duties.


Definition of operating crew: operating crew member” means a crew member carrying out duties in an aircraft during a sector

So as far as I understand, bunk time is included.

[BYMONEK]

Whilst I can understand the reluctance of some to trust any system, there is a huge difference between sending an open letter to Flight Safety and using the CSR system. This system is for cabin crew and pilots, not ground staff (Nikita!)

The airline is required to have a Confidential Safety Reporting system and regardless of what we think of the current management or the culture within the organisation, they too are aware of it's importance. It takes a long while to build up trust and seconds to destroy it. Posting our opinions is fine. Posting that a system doesn't work when you haven't tried it is ignorant. I would not trust writing a letter to AAR via his invitation but I would, however, recommend voicing safety concerns through the correct confidential channel. At least you have recourse should the process fail. You don't through an open system.

The Company could only access the reporters details through the facilitator so unless you don't trust them, I can't see how your details can be released to management. It would need only one person to highlight this shortcoming for it to blow the whole process out of the water. In the last 5-7 years, I've not heard of that and would not expect it anyway.

I think it's about time some people took more ownership of their problems. The forms are on the aircraft ladies and gents, start using them!

[falconeasydriver]

BYMONEK, I'm glad you have pointed out how we all I'm sure hope the confidential reporting system works.
Speaking hypothetically for a moment, and when I say hypothetically I mean it in the literal sense as well as what was conveyed to me by way of a colleagues opinion.
Whose to say for example that the facilitator is put under pressure to reveal details? are there checks and balances? is the information contained secure and free from external influence? Given the level of hypocracy and collective arse covering/nepotism displayed in various departments, how can we be sure that pressure wouldn't be bought to bear on the individual facilitator? Yes it it most certainly a question of trust and integrity, but it is also a fact that those who have been identified previously have been punished. Is the facilitator above influence/coercion, or are they merely an unwitting yet genuine player in another initiative that is merely paying lip service to the very real benefits of confidential safety reporting? How can we be sure that tomorrow, next week or next year there won't be a decree that forces the system to now identify those individuals on the grounds of "whatevertheyfeckinglike".
If any of that can be REASONABLY assured, then I'm certain more reports would be forthcoming.
Not my thoughts as I say, but an opinion expressed to me by a senior individual recently which to be frank is quite troubling to my sensitive trusting soul.

[Mr Good Cat]

EASA Flight Time Limitations have been delayed until Feb 2016.

1000 hrs ultimate limit, no factoring of bunk time.

Whether the GCAA adopt EASA FTLs is an entirely different matter...

[Mr Good Cat]

http://www.slideshare.net/garrethealy1/easa-ftl-2016-module-1-v12

The new EASA FTLs.

Have a look at the definition of Class 1 In-flight rest areas. That's quite interesting - "Free from passenger noise and disturbance".

[positive stability]

VLS with ice, your post #34 regarding GCAA flight time limitations is correct, BUT a Notice of Proposed Amendment (NPA) was made by the GCAA last year for CAR OPS 1 and was open for comments on 24 November 2014 with only 30 days to submit a response. The document is 513 pages long with quite a few changes.

The current CAR OPS 1 dated Feb 2014 on page 272 states what VLS says and is correct. However the new CAR OPS 1 NPA valid soon and ambiguous as to exactly when (look under NPA on GCAA website), page 288 makes ones eyes water and I’m sure the people in the bouncy castle are celebrating big on this one, there are three additional new notes in this amendment and Note 3 is the killer for cumulative fatigue in my humble opinion. New CAR-OPS 1, 1.1125 Absolute limit on flying hours Note 3 states;
A crew member is not considered operating crew member, during the time spent at his/her rest in an acceptable in-flight rest facility, or its equivalent under unforeseen circumstances, which will be reported to the GCAA. The duration of the flight rest time is not to be included in the flight time cumulative limits, but will be included in the Flight Duty Period Duty time for cumulative limits consideration.

As it goes the UAE airlines can say that they simply follow the regulator, but in reality the regulator is being driven by who?? I will leave that one to your imagination. Certain airlines in the ME have regularly been using the limit as a target plus a bit of dubious fudge factoring here and there as it suits. I personally don’t think any sane reputable medical professional that understands cumulative fatigue would recommend flying to these limits continuously as part of your career given the wide variable schedule we have nowadays. But then again you can always leave if you don’t like it.

[Nikita81]

Whilst I can understand the reluctance of some to trust any system, there is a huge difference between sending an open letter to Flight Safety and using the CSR system. This system is for cabin crew and pilots, not ground staff (Nikita!)

True. Nevertheless, behaviors and intentions are the same.

Same happened when I sent complaint on harassment at workplace to HR (which should be one of the most confidential things in HR). The person I complained on (DVP Anoma Manuel) was informed about it and I was fired almost immediately (nobody replied on my complaint until many days later when it was obvious that I will not give up). Just another example.

[kingpost]

Positive stability, very observant post. Not that the regs you are referring to differentiate between Block hours and cumulative duty hours. Rest is not recognised for cumulative duty but the block hours count, which remain at 900, the cumulative duty hours are 2000, but these have to include online learning etc!!

[ekwhistleblower]

AAR says he wants to open a channel of communication but most seem reluctant to use his form. Why is this? Fear of jeopardy and intimidation, belief he won't read it?

If we assume the senior management really wants feedback, what can the company do to get feedback? What about a drop box in briefing where the flight docs are put in with the ability to drop a letter directly to a senior manager? Can you think of a better way?

[VLS with ice]

Positive stability,
I have indeed read that proposal for amendment, however, for now the rules I posted are still in effect as far as I can tell. Do you have any idea if that amendment has been approved and if so, when it will be applied? If that comes in to force, we are well and truly :mad:

Smile and wave...

[glofish]

harry and BYMONEK

You can cut off the lecturing and assuming:
Been there, done that, didn't work

I am all for filing reports, i actually encourage us to do so, but keep everything factual to be able to sign it. Some stuff even helps.

But to believe that anything can be maintained confidential in these regions is, i am sorry again, blatantly naive.

To me the very nature of Confidential Reports is not suited and thus oblivious for this kind of government/management.

[BYMONEK]

glofish

It's certainly not my intention to lecture. We all have our opinions and are free to voice them, at least for now anyway. Neither am I trying to convince you or others that you should place faith in the system. You're either going to trust it or you're not and nothing that AAR, AS, STC or your best friends maid will convince you otherwise. I'm merely trying to think of a process that's as near as possible to voicing concerns without fear of repercussions.

ekwhistleblower

Good idea, can the Confidential Safety Report drop box not count as a starter?

falconeasydriver

Yes, valid points and concerns. I'd like to think that if indeed pressure was to be brought upon the facilitator, though I sincerely doubt it would, the reporters details would unfortunately get mislaid! ;) The facilitator would then no doubt resign and it wouldn't be too long before the truth unfolded.

[Thridle Op Des]

..as someone who works with the CSR facilitator, I know with absolute certainty that there is ZERO chance of any confidentiality being betrayed (unless the reporter chooses to do so-as has happened before in the 'alleged leak'). The secure processes are in place, all you have to do is make the effort to report, no cojones required.

[Nikita81]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2iu7w5i.jpg

[6100]

In my time at EK pilots were intimidated with guns during interviews by Head of Security and evidence acquired through phone tapping was used against pilots.

As i understand it Dubai inc is still the same family business that it was when I was there, so unless something has changed that I'm not aware of, I would treat any committment to confidentiality by EK management as a fairy tale.

[BYMONEK]

Nikita81

While you have had the vote of confidence from many on here, I don't support your efforts at trying to hijack a serious issue such as the one we're discussing. The reporting system we're referring to is unlike anything that would have been in place for yourself when you were employed here. I, like many, will have empathy with your frustration and the appalling way you were treated and have given you that support by various means on these forums. This is a public forum and you've just as much right as anyone to post.

However, you know nothing about this particular process. You know nothing of the facilitator nor how the reports are submitted and to whom. You also, I suspect, know nothing about their outcomes. Until you do may I kindly ask you to refrain from posting less than helpful comments or images. Many people have put considerable time and effort over many years to slowly build up this tentative trust and do not want to see what little trust there is ruined by uneducated and ignorant viewpoints. You of all people should know that the stronger the voice, the more likely it is to be heard. That's what we're trying to achieve.

If a few more of your own colleagues had been prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with you, I doubt you'd even have heard of PPRune.

[Nikita81]

I am sorry Bymonek, I wasn't aware that you are trying to "achieve something" on a rumor Internet forum. Maybe this is why you are unsuccessful in your efforts? After all this is just a forum and after all you are taking it too seriously probably because you ignore real life actions that you can do.

On the other hand, you don't know whether I am ignorant on this subject or just avoid to comment it directly in respect towards people who do know more than me, and I choose to give just side comments in support of your viewpoints regarding confidentiality.

You were my colleague and I didn't see you standing shoulder to shoulder with me. Maybe because you have so much more to lose (including your much bigger salary) and I didn't ask you to do it, but I am not the guilty one for your sense of lack of dignity. Just a girl on a forum.

I don't read comments I am not interested in. I advise you the same.

These issues should be discussed somewhere else. In real life with relevant people. Interesting to read though. I use this forum as a source of information. And that is all that one website can ever be (forums even less). You said it yourself - I would never heard about it if it wasn't... Just my two cents.

[Snake man]

BYMONEK:

1) "trying to hijack a serious issue such as the one we're discussing". Newsflash, chum. There are no serious issues here, this is a circus.
2) "Until you do may I kindly ask you to refrain from posting less than helpful comments or images"... blah, blah, blah. That reads as though it was penned by one of our managers.
4) The lady posted a funny cartoon, get over yourself.
3) If you want to be the judge of content on this forum, get a job as a moderator.
5) You don't get to call the lady's viewpoints as "uneducated and ignorant".

In short; wind your neck in.
Carry on, Nikita.

[Wizofoz]

So.... Nikita thinks anything posted here is unimportant and doesn't need to be accurate or taken seriously?

Interesting that she uses it as a vehicle to publicise her OWN plight, and gets very techy when her viewpoint is challenged.

The confidential reporting system IS a very good tool, and is well administrated.

[Nikita81]

So.... Nikita thinks anything posted here is unimportant and doesn't need to be accurate or taken seriously?How did you come to that conclusion? I like reading your viewpoints, I respect them and find them wise and smart. It's a real shame that they stay on this website only.

You ban me, kick me off topics and sometimes say negative things on my "whining", yet I am still here. It means something.

Carry on, I will not bother you in your boys' club (much:}).

Edit: fyi only, Mr.Rory from WSJ and me are communicating from the very first blog post of mine, so I do know how hard was it for him to publish the story on your case.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Try it, you'll like it.

[Nikita81]

Dropp

Maybe you should start a blog of your own. "Truth about Nikita. Ignore her and she will disappear. Maybe." Whole campaign. You might "achieve" something. :}

[kirungi1]

I am sorry Bymonek, I wasn't aware that you are trying to "achieve something" on a rumor Internet forum.

...Interesting to read though. I use this forum as a source of information.

Something doesn't add up and what a contrast! Classic :ok:
Show some sensitivity at least for yourself if you find it difficult for others.

[BYMONEK]

Nikita81

Probably trying to achieve the same things you are but hopefully with more success. At least I'm still gainfully employed at this stage. The reports do get read by 'real' people, which is why I'm suggesting this as a format to respond to management. If you do genuinely know how the system works, please tell us. I'll then happily take Snake man's advice and wind my neck in.

But until then, and while emotions still blur facts, i'll carry on too.

[BigGeordie]

Okay, if Nikita isn't "allowed" to comment because she (maybe) doesn't know how the Confidential(?) Reporting System works I'll chip in. I do know how it is supposed to work.

I want to believe in it as well. I have a small niece who wants to believe in unicorns and fairies at the bottom off garden but if she is wrong about those things it won't affect her career.

Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. I have so little confidence left in our management I don't intend to be the one who finds out the hard way that the company definition of confidential is different to mine. I suspect a lot of people think the same way I do. So I'll continue to keep quiet and keep my head down as much as possible unless something really needs to be said (and yes, I have put in fatigue ASRs in the past, and complained about the noise in the A380 CRC when screaming babies have kept me awake for hours).

Nikita has more guts than 90% of the people on here and I really hope she keeps posting.

[Snake man]

Well spoken, BigGeordie.

BYMONEK:
1)"Probably trying to achieve the same things you are but hopefully with more success." I would suggest not. She has spoken with a reporter from the WSJ. Have you?
2) "At least I'm still gainfully employed at this stage." Pure spite. Shame on you, and quite frankly, you have no idea whether the lady is presently employed or not.
3) "I'll then happily take Snake man's advice and wind my neck in." Best idea you've had in years. Do it.

Carry on, Nikita

[bogeydope]

Big Gordie

I'm also with you on this one!!:ok:

[Nikita81]

Nikita81
Probably trying to achieve the same things you are but hopefully with more success.

Tell me, Bymonek, what am I trying to achieve?

There is only one way for you to check if the system is confidential. Writing on PPRuNE and mocking me for not having a job (that's just a low blow) are not that way.

[kirungi1]

She has spoken with a reporter from the WSJ. Have you?

Snake man; WSJ would be another forum just as Bymonek has chosen to address via Pprune (without drawing contrasts between the two). However, going to WSJ alone wouldn't be enough because they don't manage this company.
I think what Bymonek & others are seeking is momentum through word of mouth and via Pprune etcetera appealing to like minded people for this specific issue.

You don't have to contribute if you don't want to and posting otherwise would seem venting ones frustration for reasons not of their own making. :confused:

[Nikita81]

And PPRuNe is an official channel to address EK management? Better send anonymous letter addressed to HQ. Managers are not reading their own procedures and policies let alone this forum.

[kirungi1]

Nikita81; I'm sure you will agree that this thread seeks process to address Management but not what you suggest above. You will also perhaps accept that Bymonek & others are merely making an effort without dictating the results which option you've had in your plight. I find nothing wrong with this. They deserve our support as they've done!

[Snake man]

Kirungi:
Read the title of this thread. It's "Wall Street Journal Article etc".
Clearly Nikita has a valuable contribution to make in this regard, having actually dealt with a reporter.
I find it remarkable that BYMONEK then accuses Nikita of hijacking the thread, whist doing exactly that himself, turning it into a discussion about the Confidential Reporting System and insulting the lady in the process. That's unacceptable.
Personally, I don't mind which vehicle we use to highlight our management issues, but let's keep it clean, let's listen to every viewpoint without discrimination, and let's remember that we're all on the same team.

Carry on, Nikita

[kirungi1]

That's unacceptable.

...and let's remember that we're all on the same team.

Snake man; good point thank you. Could Nikita81 & Bymonek agree to disagree on the margins only? Maybe the answer to this is not for today. Its easy to assume that Nikita81's vantage is spilled with grapes (without suggesting that her principle is not as strongly valid as Bymonek's).

[BYMONEK]

My remark about being gainfully employed was in the context of actually being in a position to effect change within this Company so please stop with the sensitivity. I've already acknowledged how unfairly Nikita was treated so your remarks are way off.

As for WSJ, why would I want to write to them? I have a means of voicing my Safety concerns within this Company. Terms and conditions on the other hand I have little say in and will be dictated by market forces. If I don't like them, I'll leave so writing to the press complaining about employment issues in EK is downright stupidity. Suggesting it is equally so.

[Nikita81]

I will tell why I have decided to post here.

It was only after I saw your comments on WSJ articles. So I had no previous intentions to involve myself here.

Seems that some of you think you are so important and it is enough to write about your issues here in order to attract journalists' attention and have articles published. It also seems that you think that your writings on PPRuNe have contributed to making your issues public. Indeed, it may be so.

But.

Somebody told me that I would never hear about PPRuNe if I didn't have a problem with EK. True. But it is also true that I have linked your threads on my blog in several occasions. Several hundreds of thousands of people have read those articles.

We are in the same team, but it seems that you are not aware that you didn't contribute as much as you could or you think you have. Mr.Rory was asking me to help him couple of times. I couldn't help him much because my sources had to remain confidential. He was trying to publish these stories for 6 months and he couldn't because nobody was willing to speak under their real names? How is that a contribution? Journalists actually need a real source and a full name and a face, otherwise everything remains a rumor, not useful to them.

Tell me what would you think if nobody wants to talk about their problems with you? Would you think that their problems are not so big as they say? Would you know how to prove that somebody has a problem if they don't want to talk about it?

Mr.Rory had a hell of a difficult job here. And your contribution was not so big as you think it was. Except Emirates Illuminati. But they have a real reason to stay anonymous.

I already wrote about the fact that I only got support emails from present and former pilots but not even one story to publish.

So, don't be so cocky when discussing these WSJ articles. Most of you don't have a real reason to be.

You have safety issues? Bring it to the right address. Now you know that there is somebody listening. Or try out the company's system. PPRuNe is an anonymous joke.

[kirungi1]

PPRuNe is an anonymous joke

Nikita81; No it's not a joke! There is something extraordinary about this anonymity that allows genuine views and ideas to be shared without fear or favour which might be difficult with other fora.
The thing I can't get over is why you see to have such an anger against "same team" member for trespassing your thread while advocating for a value(s) principle to all of us.
Which is the "right address" or less or more address for a safety issue. For some of us It's safety first and it takes it's place unconditionally between threads and posts et cetra and please allow it some room.

[Nikita81]

The thing I can't get over is why you see to have such an anger against "same team" member for trespassing your thread while advocating for a value(s) principle to all of us.

Ok, I was maybe harsh when I called PPRuNe a joke (except when Dropp and vfnext are trolling, then it really looks funny), but still - this is just a forum. Nobody is reading it except you. Good source of information, but that's it.

The right address would be that system you are talking about. Or HQ. Or Rory.

No, I am not angry at all. Remember, you've started it first. That's never a good idea with me. :} I like you all (even those two trolls:) and wish you safe flights.

[TheDarkHorse]

Ladies and Gents,

After a page or so of thread drift despite it being an issue in itself may I willfully suggest that we return onto topic as its quite a pressing issue that the thread originally started is about...

[MosEisley]

This is why we can't have nice things and it's also how you get ants.

[lowstandard]

I am trying to figure out how they can possibly crew 2 more ULR flights (SEA, MCO) and DPS by the beginning of September. I am pushing 96hrs this month and I do not see any significant numbers coming down the pipeline to keep me from hitting my absolute limit a few months short of the year.

I've brought it up at my last wash up and the only response is that its going to be a busy year. I guess its more important to find people to blame after the fact than try to solve the problem.

[TheDarkHorse]

LS - I think you'll find they will continue to "optimise" on the staffing situations as per the email from way up high to "use resources better" i.e. squeeze more, the problem therein lies when you have squeezed so much you will have no resources to squeeze at all but then that will be the day after and so will be considered only on the next day because its not important today...

[Kamelchaser]

The thing our managers don't seem to be able to comprehend is that raising the max hours to 1,000 hours a year is not the solution to the problem...it's the CAUSE of the problem.

[delorean79]

I am pushing 96hrs this month and I do not see any significant numbers coming down the pipeline to keep me from hitting my absolute limit a few months short of the year.

I've brought it up at my last wash up and the only response is that its going to be a busy year.

If they get the new limitations from the GCAA, will it be retroactive?

I mean, right now you are on 96hr every month. Which will be the number, if the new limitations come into force? What will be your flight time on the last 12 months?

[Trader]

Management pilots will be flying a half roster next month! More calls to piltos on days off coming I am sure.

[TCU LUX]

On the matter of days off could someone please help to explain something.

So, the OMA states that a crew member shall not be on duty more than 7 consecutive days before a minimum of one day off is assigned.

The OMA also states that a day off is a period from from all duties. It shall consist of 2 local nights, and will last at least 34 hours.

A definition of a local night is provided as a period of 8 hours falling between 2200 and 0800 local time.

If you arrive back from a trip and set the break at 22:15 - how is it possible for your roster to still show a day off the next day? Does the 15 mins not encroach on the definition of a local night...free of duties? Should the roster not change to a rest day?

My understanding is that one would have to be free from duties for 34 hours from 2200 until 0800 the day after the next.....to get a day off?

Thanks for info :confused:

[flareflyer]

It's going to be a hot summer.......and not only because of the usual weather........
it seems that we will all meet on the 20 and 21 at the meridian........
:-)

[Man Flex 37.5]

A definition of a local night is provided as a period of 8 hours falling between 2200 and 0800 local time.

The answer is in the definition, to achieve a local night you need to have 8 hours between these 2 times, so if you are off duty at 22:45 you would have achieved a local night by 06:45 the following day, in this scenario if you finished duty at 22:45 on a Monday, you could have achieved a legal day off (34 hours and 2 local nights) by 08:45 on the Wednesday.

[TCU LUX]

Thanks Man Flex. Got it now.

Need to sharpen up on Chapter 7 --- as I’ve got a feeling that crew controllers are going to be trying every trick in the book in the months ahead.

[alwayzinit]

Lowstandard, some time ago I raised the crewing ratio that EK were using per airframe to the then CPB. His response was hilarious. It is, supposedly, a very complicated calculation that I simply would not understand.
In other words they had NO plan as to the real required crewing ratio then, so the chances of them having one now is between slim and sweet FA.

The wheels are wobbling on the wagon right now............................

[VLS with ice]

Wheels wobbling on the wagon??? The wheels are in that dust cloud behind you. The wagon is being dragged on the axle, if you ask me.

[crazy_bird]

just a small, slightly out of context question...

i have been reading loads of articles on racial/passport discrimination as far as salaries are concerned in dubai. To what extent is this prevalent for pilots in EK?

[Calmcavok]

Double daily BOS ain't going to help matters!

Emirates to fly second daily Boston service - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/101552/emirates-to-fly-second-daily-boston-service)

[SOPS]

Has anyone actually told the people who are organising these flights, how many pilots they have ( or have not ) got?

[SuckItUp]

CALMCAVOK, It seems to have no affect on pilots, unless you are a local.

The ground staff have a different situation though........