What cost PH Hems Helis

[Peter-RB]

Three days ago up here in Lancashire a car accident occurred (about 12/20 MPH) on the busy A666 which is the main road from Blackburn to the Ribble Valley area, .....the usual service attended Ambulance's Police and F/Brigade, there was some unconfirmed report of 7 pax being trapped in the road vehicles, in the what seems like not far away from a panic report 3 emergency Helicopters were requested and in fact landed on some open space between a church old type with a steeple, and some high rise flats right next to a small i
infants school.

It appears the Helis were all stood down when it was discovered jammed door had trapped said casualties in side the vehicle's.

How much would three wasted journeys cost the local NW Ambulance service, for it seems to me ,..over kill for such a small incident..

Peter R-B :hmm:

[handysnaks]

Peter
As far a I know, the helicopter use would have cost the NW ambulance service nothing (other than the fact that they may be paying the salaries of the paramedics), as the charity funds it all. I expect that when air ambos are predicated on getting the casualty to the hospital within the 'golden hour' or getting well trained paramedics or doctors to the casualty as quickly as possible, then a number of false calls will have to be factored in (you don't know its a false call until the first person qualified to make that judgement arrives on scene). As for the rest of the vehicles, well other than the fuel costs, they have to be somewhere. Might as well be there:ok:

[Devil 49]

Sounds like somebody made a mistake... Oh well.

I hate sitting for hours while the ground units rescue, extricate and/or transport the patient to the LZ, but the ideais to get the patient to definitive care as quickly as possible. Sometimes there isn't a viable patient after all that; sometimes air transport isn't needed, and we leave empty; but I have seen the medical crew doing everything they can to keep the patient alive, and sometimes that's just not possible. I would rather be called in anticipation than waste the few minutes that might determine the outcome.

[jayteeto]

They work on the information they have at the time, initial reports come in from shocked people. What if the initial call had been as accurate as they often are???
You would see posts here saying "seven people were trapped and the idiots DIDN'T send the air assets!! ARE THEY STUPID??"
You can't win, whatever you do.
Peter, you are looking at it from your side of the fence, my side sees different. You think you are right, I think that I am. I would rather see an aircraft stood down than paramedics at a chaotic scene wondering where the helicopters are.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

The real scandal is that all the machines have to be run via charities with no support from government ! They are on about saving £12billion from the welfare budget I reckon that would run a few machines ;)

[handysnaks]

Then they wouldn't have saved it.....

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

There is a bit of misunderstanding about what the HEMS helicopter is for and how it can be used to improve the level of service in a regional ambulance are.

HEMS in the Air Ambulance role can be used to improve the total level of service and not just the service given to the patient inside.

For instance, in Berwick there is one Paramedic vehicle. If a stable patient who requires paramedic supportneeds a transfer to Newcastle that vehicles takes over 5 hours to complete the job. 5 hours of depleted emergency cover in this remote are. The AA can do the transfer in 40 minutes, 20 of which it is empty and available for trauma.

In the HEMS role it is by definition a First Reaction vehicle. Now when an accident happens it is usually an upset panicking member of the public who calls 999. When the call comes through the Control has 2 choices, try to assess and decide what kind of response is required OR send the fastest vehicle to the scene. Whichever way you cut it the risks of a Control Officer or the added time to refer to a manager is simply not conducive to the principles and safety net that a fast response system demands. Therefore, in my opinion it is a mistake to treat the HEMS helicopter differently from any other fast reaction team. Rule 1, send the asset that will get there first. Of course on occasions it may seem that the helicopter arriving is overkill (probably not a good word) and ideally some ground assets will arrive early and let the HEMS know if the tasks warrants the risks of landing. Often the HEMS arrives first. Sometimes mistakes are made as the speed of the processs can defeat everyone's good intentions.

HEMS and AA. Is not an exact science and relies in no small part of the dedication and skill of not only the HEMS crew but the whole emergency services network.

I find it slightly depressing and a little bit "British" that on this occasion a Rotorhead expresses a poor opinion of what is a sound, robust and dedicated service provided by some of our fellow Rotorheads.

Well done to all our HEMS and AA crews.

DB

[Peter-RB]

Possibly badly worded by me in the first place, but what I was trying to fathom was the cost of three Helis and Staff arriving at a site that was actually only two miles from the emergency room,
I don't decry the service for they have to act under sometimes tragic and appalling incidents and accidents, plus terminal loss of life, I myself had my life saved by such Ambulance men many years ago following a serious RTA.

What I was merely trying to ascertain was the cost of the Helis (charity or not) for what does seem to have been a panicked assessment/responce to the low speed accidents seriousness... Not trying to shoot anyone down..!

Peter R-B

[John R81]

Surely the additional cost (as compared to sitting back at base on alert) is the fuel and maintenance cost of the machines incurred in those flying hours. Most costs (salaries, capital, insurance, crew licensing, etc) are unchanged by call-out v sitting drinking tea. Therefore be wary of "full cost" estimates when it is the "marginal cost" that was affected by decision to attend.


As the flight time here was short, I suspect that the answer is therefore "not much", even before you add the valuable training experience.


Posts above show very good reason why the alert / attendance was good cost / benefit call IMO.

[Devil 49]

Perhaps that emergency room two miles away wasn't a trauma center and/or might not have been able to deliver definitive care?

[Peter-RB]

D49

Full scale main area Hospital just spent around £6Bn re build plus refurb, so does have enough medical care to look after any problem..! allegedly

Peter R-B

[Gomer Pylot]

I've been called many times to a scene, and turned around because they didn't need me after a full assessment. Sometimes the ambulance crew calls for a helicopter based only on what the situation sounds like, long before they get there, and it turns out to be a minor accident. We have arrived before the ambulance on some of those, and either circled until they made an assessment or landed and waited. We're a for-profit company, not a charity, but the cost of those flights is factored in to the overall budget, and probably makes money in the long run. I have never even considered the cost of a flight, because it does not matter at all to me. They call, I fly, and it's all the same to me and to the med crews. We far prefer being called early and turned around than being called too late. We use a hospital's helipad rather often to load a patient from an ambulance then go to another hospital, because the small country hospitals around here are not capable of handling major trauma, nor cardiac or stroke cases. They do fine with colds, flu, and minor illnesses and injuries, but if someone is really sick or hurt, they are not the place to go. I have no idea what the capabilities of your hospital are, but here there are 5 levels of trauma capability, and we would never consider going to anything lower than a 2, and not that often for that level. Being a newly renovated hospital does not make it capable of being a Level I trauma center. it's the availability of qualified staff, 24/7, that does that. It's an earned designation, and has to be maintained through audits afterwards. But again, I have no idea how this works in the UK.

[VeeAny]

Peter,

A fair question and one that is often asked.

The other guys have answered the 'why task helicopters' question with very valid answers.

The perhaps unrealised issue is that the 2mile away hospital is possibly full of very competent medical staff who may have no pre-hospital training and perhaps no means of getting 2 miles down the road to deal with what could have been a very serious incident.

UK HEMS always involves an element of stand down or not needed once on scene, but much better that than the other way around.

G.

[fly911]

Peter-RB, Each lift-off isn't an isolated incident.

There are many costs involved in an HEMS operation, from paying pilots to come in on their off-day for a safety meeting (How much did THAT cost?) to the thankfully rare, once in a while accident.

Over the period of a year, an HEMS company's income needs to exceed it's cost of operation.

Look at it this way. The pilots and med crews were already on duty, so there's no extra cost there. The mechanic will perform the 100 hour inspection a little earlier. So the real cost is your hourly direct operating cost for the helicopter, and not the thousands of dollars/pounds/rand that the operator normally charges to transport a patient.

It's just an incidental expense in the cost of doing business.

[Peter-RB]

Gentlemen All,

Thank you, I now understand the way these things are organised, and the cost is not what I was thinking it was, ...so thank you all for your input, perhaps if I had worded my original question easier then I would not have raised the heckles of you professional individuals, who I do admire for the way things are done with either Hems or Air Police.

It is good to know that most of the World where I or my family will tread has such services operated in the public's favour by such dedicated fliers.
Thank you . :ok:

Peter R-B