PA28 Interior

[Ebbie 2003]

This may seem like a odd question, but I've tried just about everything else to get a solution.

I have an Archer II, last May it was flown to the US for a major cosmetic refurb - thinks bare metal respray and new everything else inside and out and you will get the idea.

Went a bit nuts on it and probably have the most money in such a plane in the world, save for fancy glass panel avionics.

Anyway, went to pick it up last September, it looked magnificent with its new paint, smoked windows, new external plastic bits etc. Then close up horror of horrors, what I describe as gaps, in places one could fit a hand through if the glass were not in the way - these between the surround and the new interior plastic moldings.

https://www.dropbox.com/l/ldmYdA30NTDBApNOWtdmPp
I have spoken with the suppliers (VPP) who say the parts match the serial numbers so are right, the comment that the installation is the poorest they have seen (and that's based on photos which are not as shocking as the actual thing) - they are a 24 hour drive away so are not keen to come take look, nor can they recommend someone to do so.

The shop doing the work have had several attempts to refit, to no avail. In the latest attempt the stripped out all the new stuff repaired and repainted the originals - the photos show the same gaps - in places there are none, a nice fit, but more than half exhibit gaps, from a maybe quarter inch to maybe inch plus in others.

To add insult to injury the shop saying they would be done in six weeks, they took twelve before they said it was ready, it seems took no precautions at all to care for my low time engine (we are talking Florida) and now it's been sitting for ten months.

The upshot is law suit in the offing and I need photos of PA28 windows - from the outside close up (one window per photo) - seems that the whole thing revolves around a "those gaps are usual" - not on mine they weren't nor the other two down here - seems I need lots of examples.

So if you have a PA28 or just have some I would appreciate some photos of windows - [email protected] the more the merrier, with a note of the registration.

At some point I will post the details of the whole sorry saga, it really does beggar belief.

Could not work out how to post photos do here is a link to a Dropbox with some examples

[150 Driver]

I can't help in any respect but having been taken to the cleaners a couple of years ago by a maintenance organisation I commiserate in every way.

[9 lives]

Ebbie,

I don't have a PA-28, but I have seen some about like that you depict.

A bit of information might make your situation more easy to understand (so I'm not forming an opinion one way or the other here).

Were the replacement interior parts genuine Piper parts? If so, your issue is probably as much with Piper as with the installer. The installer does not have the right to modify the parts to make them fit, they just install what Piper supplies. If the parts were not Piper, what makes them "airworthy"? Are they PMA parts? If so, again, you may have an issue with the manufacturer as much as the installer.

The installer may just say "we installed the parts approved for the plane". That is their job. If the parts come with provision to adjust to fit, then they should have been. But, my experience has been that some formed plastic interior parts either look nice installed, or don't - there's no provision to "adjust" for a better fit.

My experience has been that most Piper and Cessna had interior finish which was modest at best, Though not great, I've seen factory planes which looked as bad as the photos you present.

Probably, the installer is as frustrated with your lack of satisfaction as you are. You will probably have better luck teaming with them to collectively find a solution, than sitting on opposite side of the table right off. Simply ask them what opportunities they had to do a better job of the installation. If they say "none", they may be telling you the truth....

[Ebbie 2003]

The parts came from Vantage Plane Plastics using the original Piper tooling (molds to you and I).

Piper no longer manufacture gor the older Archers.

The part come oversized cutting them down is required - one carefully removes the original parts are uses them as guides to produce a copy - hence they should fit to match what was removed; it is a serious craft skill. If you search for Vantage Plane Plastics on YouTube you will find their videos on refits and this procedure.

My old ones fit fine, no gaps - I only replaced them due to the fact of having eveyting else replaced and thry were brittle.

I agree with you latter comments but the shop is singularly taciturn to put it mildly - tske a look a the photos my favourite is the hole for the visor arm smashed through the new molding with what I speculate was a Phillips head screwdriver. The visor didn't swing, binding on the new molding, and to get the ball arm of the visor in the socket, in addition to the arm being bent to reach, the socket was crudely hacked down with a craft knife.

This is not an installer who took pride in his work.

When he gave up and resprayed and intalled the old parts he managed to replicate the gaps, the were not the when the plane was dropped off.

[9 lives]

I take your meaning Ebbie. I've done a few interiors (on planes I owned - so I cared). It is not the most interesting work. Certainly someone who does not care can make a mess of it.

Your approach in requesting photos of other installations seems reasonable. It is unfortunate that Piper (as didn't other manufacturers) didn't specify standards of workmanship for interiors, as it's really not an airworthiness issue.

Best of luck!

[maxred]

Ebbie, truly sorry to see the mess you have been left with. As 150 Driver stated, most of us have been there, to some degree or another. It is truly demoralizing when you turn up full of excitement, to find your dream project, in the bucket. Add Insult to injury when they say, not my fault gov...

So, where to go. Personally, I do not think the legal route serves anyone, other than the lawyers involved. Pair away all the noise, you have an aeroplane, on the ground, with a duff interior, that will be required to be signed off by an I/A, I assume. If it were me.

1. Sit down with the installer, and go through,clearly the issues. Do not apportion any blame. We just need to fix it. If he cannot do it, discuss someone else fixing it. Then discuss who pays.
2. Get a DAR to inspect it. This will cost you, but he can at least give you written credence that it does not work, and a route forward to get the aeroplane in the air.
3. I would then take the aeroplane to another installer, or if grounded, the installer to go to the aeroplane.
4. It may be you lose a lot of money here, but as above, we have all been there.

I had to pull an interior out, because the shop used non authorized materials, did not make a log book entry, and then denied they had actually done the work. Mines was on the ground for a year after that little escapade.

[ChickenHouse]

That does not look well, indeed. Who ordered the parts, you or the shop doing the work? Did you check old and new before? I, as many here, was there before and found out strange things about the parts no. of these plastic things. For example, when we did a french 172 declared as being a H version, we found that the plastic parts are a mix of H, but mostly G parts ... the shop knew this before and we spent a fortune on the phone upon ordering to get things right. Yes, fitting the parts in the plane and adjusting the cuts (never never do it on the old parts to more then a coarse first step, always work yourself from the uncut parts to the plane) IS a pain in the a... but this result should have been presented to you by the shop.

[Ebbie 2003]

Thought you may like to know the outcome of the mess.

I did the "sensible" thing and said I would pay when the work was complete.

Turned out not to be a good idea - the guy whacked a possessory lien on my plane, moved to foreclose for more than twice the pending bill - didn't like that hired a lawyer recommended ny AOPA - got a court date in May 2017 (!!!!!!) - passed by and looked at the airplane in June rotting into the ground (apparently one can possess it, owner cannot have it back until the court hearing is held) - decided to settle - asked how much and they settled for less than the lien and less than the amount pending (I assume the money all went to his lawyer so he got nothing a plus for me). Plane flown to Ft. Lauderdale, after US$2,000 spent to fix the brakes - the comms and alt failed en-route - since then I have spent on replacing the engine mount, the mags, the alt, the starter, radios next - and my lawyer cost me $20,000+.

Best thing was got the airplane looked over last December - declared unairworthy oddly a week after the first guys signed the annual - my lawyer said don't tell the FAA after I expressly told him I was travelling to the US to make a formal complaint (goes to show how good he was - it did lead to me paying him more money of course).

So I have the world's most expensive PA28-181 with the defective work the original guy did - if this ever happens to you pay the crook and sue him if you have to - and never, ever take anyone's advice on who to use - if I'd gone where I planned to none of this would ever have happened.

On a positive note I will have my airplane back and will have a 1400 mile cross country over open ocean to look forward to :)

[BoeingBoy]

Hi Ebbie,

As a fellow Archer owner I really feel for you, especially as I too have had some internal trims renewed.

You might like to bring this over to Facebook where there is a very active group centred on the Arrow but in reality serving all Cherokee variants. Most of the contributors are in the USA but you will get support from all over the world.

I have no vested interest in promoting the site but it's doing a very good job for those of use who have Pipers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PiperArrow/

[Ebbie 2003]

Thanks for the sympathy - it taught me a serious lesson - mainly do not trust Americans - my total cost on trying to get it back into the condition it was in when it went up to the US have now passed US$100,000 - still waiting on news about the condition my autopilots are in (unusually it has the full on A/P, alt hold and full ILS - before now I have had it passing over the fence at Grantley Adams on the A/P - not a smart thing to do but just curious to see how good it was).

At one point at the outset of the whole saga I did assert to my lawyer that we should just get an agreement to burn the plane - oddly the lawyer didn't seem keen on that!

One day once I get it back here I will post a long article somewhere setting out the bizarre circumstances that led up to the plane going to the US in the first place.