Reap what you sow....EK

[jidder]

Was called on my days off from EK pre ops to " do them a favour". They had their first and last favour out of me when I first joined and they wouldn't help me when I requested my end of the bargain.

Maybe they will get the message that they have to treat us better if they want a " Favour" in the future. Sadly this will be delayed by those who will turn in their days off and take it in the A#* in order to please a master that will hold you in contempt.

DON'T GIVE UP YOUR DAYS OFF TO HELP THESE C:*$S! WORK TOWARDS A GREATER GOOD!

J :E

[C4]

If You are unhappy in your job, grow a pair and vote with your feet!

BTW, I have no affiliation with EK

[ATIS]

Mate, we have been truly bent over a barrel at Monarch (remember that scene in Pulp Fiction), and yet people are still coming in on days off. I just don't get it.

Good luck

[Plane_Sailing]

C4, why should we all uproot our families, leave our friends and disrupt our careers just because of shortsighted and greedy management that can't keep or attract crew. I'm Reasonably happy in my job with emirates but that doesn't mean I have to do them favours when they won't give me my leave.
I'm sick of people bringing up that old nugget ' if you don't like it leave it' , perhaps another option is to try and force a change. One way is to not offer up your days off for a few shillings and a 'thank you captain' from an overworked crew controller that won't remember your name when he hangs up the phone.

[Yossarian]

Don't give up your off days for favours that will never be returned or appreciated. Don't sell them your hard earned leave because they can't plan and want to keep crewing levels threadbare, and are now desperate. The value of your leave days is far more than they're paying, so stop giving it back to them.

[jidder]

@ C4

You have no affiliation to EK, yet you sound like The management here!! I will pick my battles and will vote with my feet when the time is right as I owe EK no loyalty. In the mean time I will happily hang the company by its own BS policy.


@ Plane_Sailing, you have hit the nail on the head :ok:

J :E

[nakbin330]

I was called this morning, refused, and wasn't bothered again. Perhaps there were enough 'yes' men.

[CAT3A]

They send me a text and then a phone call. Didn't event answer. No way will give them my days off.

If you help them then you actually become part of the problem. We don't want to mask what is going on with rosterering.

I totally agree with you Jidder!

[jidder]

@ LR3

Don't sit on the fence now fella :p

[SOPS]

LR 3. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Am NOT Sure]

Lr3
Your next beer is on me :D

[fatbus]

I take great pride in answering the phone and saying "no". Never been an issue.

[sheiken around]

I've been called 4 times now in the last 6 weeks. Each time, "NO", politely but firmly, does the trick.

I can only hope that after the last few years of abuse meted out to the crews by EK, that ALL ek pilots do the same. Don't fly on your days off, don't help out.

The only way anything will change is when a/c are parked and flights cancelled.

[bogeydope]

LR3.

+1:D:D

Next time please don't hold back and tell us how you really feel!!

:ok::ok:

[glofish]

And guys, please don't come up with the lame argument that you "made them pay dearly, because you traded in a goodie, or days off on a better date"!

By that you simply shoved down a bitter pill to a fellow pilot who had lesser bargaining chips.

Say no or be a hypocrite.

[DuneMentat]

Got a call yesterday for a "small trip" as well but was happy to tell he guy I had other plans so couldn't help - the beer tastes really good that night! :E

[jidder]

Sheiken & Glo,

You would think the guys would see sense but there are guys out there who are happy to give up their days off :ugh: They need to realise they are only hurting themselves in the long run.:=

J:E

[olster]

A well known UK holiday airline pays captains 7 times the EK rate for working a day off. If one managed to blag the infamous 'double - flex' then that would be 14 times. The 'double' kicks in if the duty starts ultra early or goes over midnight. I am sure the bean counters or 'management' would love to scrap it but it reflects the seriousness of sacrificing a day off. All fyi.

[Saltaire]

The call-out ( if you get it ) and OT rates at EK are not worth the effort. The OT rate is less than the regular rate of a senior captain. It's a joke. Don't do it.

[VLS with ice]

Got a call a few days back to do a favor and go to the far east. No, thanks. Checked later and the flight was done by somebody who had gotten in from a Europe trip just after midnight, so combining a rest day. He probably got home at 2am, was called early evening and left at midnight for another trip. What is wrong with these people???

[flareflyer]

As usual........pilots are the worst enemies of pilots........:ugh::ugh:

[Praise Jebus]

What is wrong with these people???

Yellow fever perhaps....

[positive stability]

The business needs to make money but that is now at the behest of my business, which is me. I entered a contract which gets changed with zero input for me and in a direction that has never been favourable to me. If I decide to stick to my original contract and agreements under which I joined and tell my manager so, I would have been resigned immediately.

The current EK business model seems to be to make money at any cost and that has now exceeded the limits of my cost. If I burnt out staying here, EK won’t care less for I am just another number and cost base affecting profits. But my business (me) is about honouring the original contract and maintaining a healthy work balance lifestyle. The ultimate aim of my business is to make sure I have enough of a lifestyle after I stop work and that lifestyle includes health and financial stability. EK does not care about that part of my business as that would involve planning ahead and to tell you the truth, they have demonstrated a lack of forward vision and planning ahead, with the only exception of pursuing ever greater profits. However regarding my future business plans, they don’t care less and never will.

So I was told if I don’t like it then leave. So I am and now counting down the weeks. I have a few interviews lined up but no job to go to and so for now I plan to enjoy some self-imposed leave. Looks like all will be ok because my leaving is of no consequence to the EK business, actually by leaving they will save even more money and make even more profit now and that is evidently how they do the business nowadays. :ok:

[halas]

Also got a call the other day to give up three easy trips for 418.
The carrot was that i would get an extra day off before my leave.

I thanked them for their consideration and told him that if crewing really gave a sh!t i would have got the day off with my bid.
Also why would i want to do an extra 5 hours work for only the flying pay.
I get a rest day after my 23:50 return anyway! :hmm:

I am a lazy pilot.

halas

[eternity]

If I get called off some standby's early in the month crew management will always take some longer trips off me at the end of the month to keep my overtime low....every airline I have been with does that.....it's not just isolated with your airline.

Also, never do crew management (or whatever you call them at EK) any favours.

People always seem to think that if they do crew management a favour then CM will owe them one......not so.

Crew Management in any airline has no memory to recall goodwill....you can't bank favours with them, so don't try.
Enjoy your days off instead.


Eternity.

[Panther 88]

Because we don't get hourly pay, for the most part, they throw pennies at us for working on a day off. Top T777 pay at one legacy is $270/hr. If they call you on a day off, pay then is $540/hr. So using some logic here (in short supply here), disregarding our hourly pittance let's do some maths. Using an average salary of 45,000/92hrs=489/hr. Double that to 978/hr and you can see what might be what you deserve, flying on a day off. Doing let's say a turn somewhere (5 hrs of flying) and you deserve 5x978=4890AED......minimum. All daydreaming of course. But that is your worth for disrupting you life and rest. Anything less and you are selling yourself like a street.........:uhoh:

[Rather Be Skiing]

Don't give up your off days for favours that will never be returned or appreciated. Don't sell them your hard earned leave because they can't plan and want to keep crewing levels threadbare, and are now desperate. The value of your leave days is far more than they're paying, so stop giving it back to them.

All true except we don't really have 'leave' anymore; it is just guaranteed days off. The value of my leave is nothing since they stopped giving any credit for it.

[Rather Be Skiing]

An excerpt from a Flightglobal article on pilot shortage.

ANALYSIS: That pilot shortage – will it prove to be another mirage?


...But looking at the industry as a whole, Moxham explains the airline accountants’ perspective on investment in skilled people for the future: “It is easy to justify an aircraft order: airframes are an asset. Pilots are seen as a liability. Yet you need both.” Accountants who genuinely think like this are being short-sighted, he suggests: “Failure to invest in the skills supply will mean increasing costs for them. Good crew will become scarce and able to demand high salaries again, and finances will go into a spiral.”...

The rest of the article is here:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-that-pilot-shortage-will-it-prove-to-be-another-409320/

You may need to be registered with the site.

[Croc Dundee]

Low cost carrier in Oz pays narrow body captains approx AED2000 for working on a day off. And that was from 2008 rates!!

[767200]

http://www.freeenterprise.com/story/management-advice-from-gordon-bethune-the-ceo-who-saved-continental-airlines/

[Panther 88]

767200,
Actually makes me sad to read that. It is so VERY simple, but that concept is totally lost here and elsewhere. It seems that many managers (not leaders) try to do the very opposite. Not through their words, but through their actions. If they are talking the talk, to have credibility, they need to walk the walk. And again, very sadly, it is just not happening.

[SMT Member]

The really sad story is, that whilst a pilot may be worth AED 5000 for working on a day off, plenty in EK are evidently willing to do it for much, much less. Since that's the case, it would be utterly foolish of management to offer anything more, than what people are willing to work for. If that figure is AED 600, well, don't blame management - blame your colleagues for selling themselves cheap.

Pilots have always been a pilot's worst enemy. Self-Sponsored training, self-sponsored type-rating, P2F, one-man companies, ME3 labour practices, airlines operating without a unionised workforce; the list is long, almost endless.

[White Sausage]

They sent me SMS one day and called me two times the following days to ask for "a little favor"... Yeah right :mad: what a nice feeling to say no, made me enjoy my off days even more. Say NO and help our cause, say yes and help them! Easy, ain't it?

[CanadaKid]

Before calling a pilot on their few days 'free of flying', have scheduling considered using the pilots roaming the 3rd floor at HQ?

CK

[Jumeirah James]

Well done to those that are saying no. And you're all correct about crewing not remembering when you helped them out. Most of us are pushing 90 odd hours per month, are tired (if not fatigued) and now they want you to voluntarily expose yourself (fnarr) to more potential errors by flying in this state, only to be hauled over the coals, demoted to FO or sacked if you make a mistake. Guys, look after yourselves and Families and politely say no.

[SOPS]

Am I correct in thinking...crew shortage?

[thrustidle74]

I heard now they are using guys on SBU for short ME turn arounds! Didn't believe it and I checked. It's true.

[Mach_Krit]

Sbulr...has happened to me not too long ago...so it is true

[fliion]

Ladies & gents,

The numbers - to add perspective.

Since 2009 we have taken a 15% pay cut and an 8,5% pay raise (the 3% annual inflation increase - is alone, grossly unjust in light of UAE inflation)

So...since 2009, we are down 6.5% on salary.

If you go 'fly' on a day off - YOU are underwriting that policy. You are essentially saying the policy of pay reductions is just and I subscribe to that policy.

Do not do it. It's is only when planes are parked that the demand/supply curve will change.

By saying no - you are exercising the only tool we have.

They do not repay favors...you owe them nothing...you owe our profession more.

f.

[kingpost]

That's a good point, don't take it out on crew control, they have a difficult task trying to make the system work with insufficient numbers - it's not their fault.

Be professional and polite when answering them!

[Kapitanleutnant]

I've heard it mentioned in a wash-up at some point in the past this: (From management)

Guys, I'm not going to lie to you… we're short of pilots... And the ONLY thing that will make things change here is when an airplane gets parked because there are not enough crew to man the flight.

So, as many others have said, if you take a flight to "help out", you're not doing yourself nor your colleagues any favors as nothing will change!!

Kap

[Buckshot16]

Well done to all, do I detect a sign of unity ?
TOGA's first sentence SHALL be complied with.:D

[Am NOT Sure]

TOGA

Your suggestion is marvelous

Discussing this with everyone else and maintaining a (no thank you) stance is the only way thigs will change

But again the company has a history of becoming enraged when pushed by severe shortage .. When aircrafts are parked it may backfire initially (Me mentality ) they may resort to punishments etc until they realize how in vain their methods were

Only then will management changes take place and higher intervention witnessed

[falconeasydriver]

Gave them a polite but firm no and don't bother calling me again a couple of years back, never have had another call or txt since :ok:

[White Knight]

Same with me Falcon. Three calls and three times NO and I've not been called since...

[Eric Janson]

Don't work for EK but the following strategy worked really well at a previous employer. I'm sure you can adapt the basic strategy.

Don't immediately answer calls from crewing.

Judge the urgency by the number of times they call.

Wait a number of hours/start of another shift at crewing

Return their call.

By the time you return their call the problem will have been resolved. This covers you in case you are dealing with vindictive management - you returned the call and there's nothing they can use against you.

[Mister Warning]

Or grow a pair, answer their call and tell them you're happy to work for AED10,000 - and you need it in writing (or better yet - in cash).

[White Knight]

Eric. I found that answering the phone and saying no sends the right message. I've never heard of anyone getting problems for that here!

And the trouble with saying yes - for 10,000dhms - is that crew control can't make that decision... They'll just go to the next number on the list!

[fatbus]

Answer the phone say "no" , crew control then can say how many said no as compared to how long it took them to contact someone. No one has heard a word from saying no.

[Desdihold]

A recent call to one of our colleagues (a330) became very heated after he said no, a member of upper management became involved and told him to go fly or else.
This happened a few weeks ago.

A few years ago a neighbor (777) had a similar conversation.
He has since left the company, his departure was not related to the call.

As for the suggestion that you name your price, don't go down that road......what you are saying is that Iam available but won't do it unless. That is grounds for being fired.

Bottom line, this company and all companies will not park airplanes just because people have a bbq planned for that evening. If you are the last person on the list then the conversation will become heated quickly.

[halas]

I find Desdihold's story a bit hard to swallow.

Upper management? Who is that?

If it was the FDM, the guy was on reserve and made a song and dance about a change, then bad luck! Go fly or go sick.

If it was fleet (doubt it) calling and told him to work day off, hang up. There will be no issue as it wouldn't happen.

But both of these are not "upper management".

halas

[Panther 88]

"Gosh, I would be more than willing to help you out, except I just had a beer for breakfast/lunch/dinner/nightcap. So very sorry I can't help you".

[Oldaircrew]

Halas,

I believe that Desdi is quite right. The FO on that flight is a friend of mine and it is what he told me.

[Desdihold]

Upper management : initials JA

Believe it, it happened.

Wake up to the world of EK...these guys will not park airplanes until they have tried everything they can.

All companies have the right to call you on a day off but you are not obligated to pick up the phone. Know the extent of your rights and your obligations.


It amazes how naive many of our colleagues still are.

[BigGeordie]

If every time they call you have 'just had a bear' I expect you would find yourself at the clinic being tested for alcoholism quite quickly. Why are people so terrified of saying, politely, "No, I'm not going to do that." You don't have to make up excuses.

[lol777]

Hi guys. Reading all your posts about being called on your days off and saying no I think will also help guys like me getting into EK. If they are short of crew we might get interviews quicker. So say NO when they call. In a nice way though. lol

[OnceBitten]

Big Geordie,
'just had a bear'

Now thats gotta be grounds to say "No" i can't fly!!! :eek:

[BigGeordie]

Have to love predictive text. But that does sound like a better excuse I must admit.

[glofish]

Predictive text:

The dollar's too strong, the rubel's too weak, the customer's too cheap, the employee's too expensive, therefore only the owner will get to share the profit.

[White Knight]

That'll be middle management then Desdi... Upper management live on the 9th floor!

And no. You do NOT HAVE to fly on a rostered day off!

[halas]

There must have been some extra bits involved if JA has to get involved with someones roster.
One of my neighbours is fleet management and told me of some who refuse to go to Kabul.
That l can understand!
But not being demanded to work on a day off.

halas

[fatbus]

Have to agree, a day is a day off. Just say NO, nothing will happen.

[Emma Royds]

After reading some of the previous posts, simply not answering the phone seems to be the best policy as far as I can see.

With so many idiots phoning you up in Dubai trying to sell you something or typing in the wrong number, I don't answer the phone unless I know the number and wish to speak to them. The bank stopped bothering me a while back with their sales calls. Bliss :O

[jidder]

Answer the phone don't answer the phone? :confused:

My curiosity gets the better of me as I always wonder if it was that little honey that I met down route, offering me the wild night that I missed out on.... Needless to say my hopes are dashed as it's usually Kumar from the bank or Senga from some investment company :ugh:

The point is don't become part of the problem and give up precious free time so the money grabbers can cut corners and work us all so hard.

They want more flights...... Get more pilots.

They not getting the numbers...... Offer a better package than the guys down the road.

They want a better standard of candidate..... Don't pay peanuts.:=

J:E

[fatbus]

Slight change of topic but a lot guys refer to a better package down the road. Can someone substantiate that.

[Pucka]

[QUOTE=fatbus;8903825]Slight change of topic but a lot guys refer to a better package down the road. Can someone substantiate that.[/QUOTE
EK road show Hk..a shambles.offer was crap.unless they want or need bottom of barrel crews..EK need to open their eyes..or taje off their Gucci shades and see reality.pay 20% above industry and see the guys move..at least from the South China Sea..which Turkey even runs these road circuses?

[JAARule]

If You are unhappy in your job, grow a pair and vote with your feet!C4, that's not an original suggestion. It's also not helpful because it's not the job or even the company (both of which are quite good) with which many pilots here are so unhappy; the problem is some of our fellow employees in management.

These office individuals work for the same company as we pilots do but their attitudes and approaches to their jobs are all wrong for the long term health of this airline, and the crewing issues you read about in this thread are merely one symptom of this malaise. Current pilots are leaving and other pilots are not joining not because of the job or the company but because of the management techniques employed by our office "colleagues" here.

These said employees are a scourge in this company and are affecting the outlook, attitude and work ethic of so many other employees that their continued employment here is a threat to all our wellbeing. We have one group of employees fouling the work environment (and in some cases home environment) for a large number of the rest and the result of this abuse is finally coming home to roost.

It's not that these management people are inherently unpleasant, at least not when they start here, but the company has an inherent flaw in its structure: many management (I believe it's VP and above) are employed under bonus-driven arrangements and this leads to a short-term interest on their behalf which leads to everyone else paying for those bonuses.

One more thing, C4: telling people to "like it or leave" is water off a duck's back these days. :) After so many floggings, most of us know how to take a hit and roll with it.

[break dancer]

Answer the phone, or not...

Better prep the wife as after my mobile rang out and the home phone went to answering machine, my wife got a call asking where I was!!

We actually enjoy our time together, so she politely told them what they can do with their phone.

Also, cover your arse and if out of DXB, submit the off base notification.....

[Emma Royds]

Interesting to note (although not surprising) that EK wasn't mentioned in the 15 best companies to work for in the UAE, based on a survey that was published in the Gulf News. DHL won the top spot.

These winning companies, representing a wide cross section of sectors including logistics, technology, finance, media, retail, hospitality and manufacturing, were chosen based on confidential employee feedback on workplace culture.

Many of these companies have employee-focused initiatives that are designed to help staff advance in their careers and enjoy a better work-life balance, thus the benchmarking study serves as a great guide for jobseekers when looking for new employment opportunities.

Don't think we would have come close.

[Rather Be Skiing]

"...enjoy a better work-life balance..."


As someone mentioned to me, at EK, work/life balance is; if you have a life, you aren't working enough!

[flareflyer]

The work-life balance we have now seems to be to good........
They are seriously looking at implementing the new ftl and also limit the days off at 9 per month and not more than 3 in a row.......
That means that we could easily fly 110 or more hours per month.......
If that will be true it is going to be a real interesting year for recruitment and resignation rate.........

[harry the cod]

......and for the sickness rate too.

Then we'll have even more F/O's being threatened with delayed upgrade due sickness and more will leave. Those that fly sick pass it on to others, they go sick, crew shortage increases and so it goes on and on...

It's like watching a bunch of drunken idiots trying to put a fire out with petrol. Completely ineffective but spectacular to watch.

Harry

[flareflyer]

But I honestly think that they will not implement such changes.......
it would really be a suicide ..........

[joe.bloggs]

It is suicide ff, but do they have a choice. They have put themselves in this position with optimised manpower planning and tough management that now when the tide has turned, they have no options. To keep the operation going, they will likely resort to this. Of course resignations/sickness/discontent/fatigue will go up as margins to safety are eroded. Interesting space to watch. I'll be looking elsewhere like a lot of others I think.

[haveago]

330 rosters can't get any worse! And the great news for captains is no 380 transfers until October at the earliest!!

[flareflyer]

It seems that 14 777 cpt resigned on the same day a few weeks ago.....
Is it true?

[joe.bloggs]

Heard that too flare though I don't know if its true. two guys down the road from me resigned recently for Korean and spoke to two more planning to resign imminently and go back to the US.

[Trader]

7 resigned sometime in the last few weeks on the same day - apparently HR believe it is due to them waiting to ensure they get any profit share.

Official attrition is up 'slightly' at 2%. However, rumor is anyone over the age of 50 who leaves is 'retiring' not resigning :)

[Alloy]

Having looked at alternative employers recently, one thing that struck me was the number of Emirates guys looking also. When I asked them it came mostly down to three main integrated reasons, amount of flying, fatigue and lack of leave. Most said if these issues were resolved then they would be reasonably content but that at present these easier were souring their vew and thus the reason for them looking. Partly with this information, I decided to pull my application.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Alloy...

Those would be my exact reasons as well.

You'd think they'd realize this and to stop the flow of resignations, try to do something about it. But this type of thinking is simply not their culture nor is their quest to make this a decent place to work.

Pity.... EK is so close to being such a great flying job, but alas....

Kap

[Desdihold]

Kap,
I agree with your statement for the most part, the exception being that you stated EK was close to being a good job.

I have been here for ten years and have seen things taken away from us on a regular basis.
The big one for me is the lost income from flying 90 plus hours per month, prior to 2009 we were paid for any flying over aprox 80 hours per month.
In the time that has elapsed since that rule was implemented I have (and many others) have not been paid for aprox 600 hours of overtime flying.
That 600 hours is the guts of an extra years worth of work which has not been paid for.

A good percentage of our pilot group has joined EK after that rule was implemented and so can not see the contrast.
Another reality is that a large percentage of our pilot group come from airlines which offered poor working conditions and so EK is in their perception an improvement.

My comments are part of a discussion and are not meant to nullify your post.

[jidder]

:D Well said Desdi, it was only meant to be for two months regarding the overtime.....

There is more hurt in the locker for us I fear :sad:

J:E

[Kapitanleutnant]

No worries there Desdi….

I hear ya brother! Agree with your sentiments as well. Didn't realize it amounted to so many hours (600)!!

… And they wonder why so many are resigning!!!

Kap

[yardman]

You're right that it wouldn't take much for EK to be great again. We have arbitrary rules that materially affect our quality of life and have no effect on the amount of money the company makes. A good example of this is the 'maximum of 5 days off in a row' rule. Why? They say it's to prevent roster compression and subsequent fatigue issues. This is nonsense because it's exactly what they do to us when we have vacation. In my opinion it's solely because of jealousy on the part of people who never have to work on weekends or public holidays.

In the old days if you had a problem and needed a day off you could call your Fleet Manager (remember Leroy?) or even crew control, and they would alway help you if it was possible. On the other hand, personally, I always would help them in return. Now, forget it! Their policies have come back to haunt them and the chickens seem finally to be coming home to roost. As I said, it wouldn't take much to improve things, but unfortunately, a mindset is often the hardest thing to change.

[flareflyer]

It is not mindset........it is blindness........and it will never change, it is part of the culture in this part of the world........i think they would rather sink the company.........

[Kapitanleutnant]

Haaaa…

"It's better to Die than to look bad"

K

[checcker10]

An interesting read from The Wall Street Journal..
..Could also add Pilots,Engineers,dispatchers,ground staff.etc,etc..


By RORY JONES
March 20, 2015 9:20 a.m. ET

DUBAI—Emirates Airline is fighting an unusual headwind: labor trouble.

In the U.S. and Europe, the Dubai-owned carrier, the world’s largest international airline by traffic, is fighting accusations by rivals that it benefits from unfair government subsidies. Back home in Dubai, however, it is engaged in a rare tussle with its own cabin-crew staff.

According to current and former staff, cabin-crew employees have been complaining internally about a host of issues, including accusations the airline is asking crew to work more hours and shortening layovers between connecting flights. In response, Emirates is hosting a series of unprecedented meetings where staff can air grievances directly to senior management. It also recently suspended a performance-evaluation system of cabin staff—conducted after each flight—that employees complained was too critical.

Labor trouble is a frequent headache for global carriers, where strikes and other job action can lead to disrupted service. But in Dubai, a semiautonomous monarchy that is part of the United Arab Emirates, strikes and unions are banned. Emirates has long been a demanding employer, especially for cabin-crew personnel—requiring rigorous training, including in etiquette and grooming.

But cabin-crew staff also enjoy benefits not typical at many other airlines, including free accommodation and transportation to and from work. That has all helped keep a lid on open labor strife among its roughly 20,000 cabin-crew employees—at least until now.

The dissent comes as the airline is growing rapidly and trying to recruit aggressively to fill its cabins. Emirates carried 44.5 million passengers in its last financial year, and forecasts 70 million passengers by 2020.

It plans to hire 5,000 more cabin staff this year, to accommodate growth and attrition. That fast clip is straining current staff, according to some employees.

Flight attendants say they are having to work more shifts, with shorter layovers. First-class attendants, who typically work their way up to their postings in premium cabins, are being asked to work in economy to make up for shortages there, according to these employees. Many cabin-crew staff had some annual leave allocation deferred last year, they said.

‘There are a number of subjects that are causing concern at the moment’
—Terry Daly, Emirates’ senior vice president of service delivery, in an email to staff.
Emirates said in a statement that it hasn’t shortened layover times, and any changes to staff routines are exceptions that comply with safety rules. Staff have to work in other cabins at times, the carrier said. Emirates didn’t immediately respond to a request seeking comment about deferred leave.

The company also declined to comment generally about cabin-crew complaints, and it declined to make executives available to comment for this article. Saif Al Suwaidi, director general of the General Civil Aviation Authority, the U.A.E.’s airline regulator, said issues about airline labor conditions are a matter to be sorted out between staff and management.

The new gripe sessions announced earlier this year are one way Emirates is trying to manage the complaints. In an email in January to staff announcing the meeting, Terry Daly, Emirates’ senior vice president of service delivery, wrote he was “aware that there are a number of subjects that are causing concern at the moment.” He called the meetings “an opportunity to talk about these directly with me,” according to a copy of the email reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

Emirates has held three sessions so far. The first meeting, held last month at Emirates’ Dubai headquarters, dragged on for double the scheduled two hours, according to three attendees. In a statement, Emirates said the forums last month were just one of many ways employees could communicate with management. “We have always encouraged open dialogue,” the carrier said.

Emirates Chief Executive Tim Clark has recently weighed in. Late last year, he started to send a quarterly “update” email to employees, soliciting feedback from staff. But he also warned about gossip mongering: “I’m astonished by the range of colorful stories that sometimes do the rounds in our company,” he wrote in October. His advice, he continued, according to a copy of the email reviewed by the Journal, is to “keep well away from naysayers and gossips and focus instead on our ambition to be one of the most loved lifestyle brands.”

Write to Rory Jones at [email protected]


Full article
http://www.wsj.com/articles/labor-strife-an-unwelcome-novelty-for-emirates-airline-1426857624

[The Outlaw]

Going to make for some very interesting times in the castle.

[jidder]

Maybe Mr Rory Jones would like to know how the pilot group feel? There's no smoke without fire. :ugh:

J:E

[DCS99]

Going to make for some very interesting times in the castle.

Now I really have seen it all:
TD quoted in the WSJ.
Internal STC e-mails in the WSJ.

Not good.
I can't see a happy ending any time soon...

[drop kick]

An accurate article. It is worth pointing out that the moral among the pilot community is even worse and its implications for safety are far more grave. With rock bottom moral, pilots put under pressure not to call sick, some pilots even losing their ability to self certify, lack of leave, pilots put under pressure to work on days off, repercussions for daring to mention the fatigue word and the ever looming 1000 hrs.
Most cabin crew are single and without children as a result they are more mobile and can vote with their feet. The pilot workforce generically is not and has more ties with often other family members working in the UAE or at schools and universities, therefore to a degree the resignation rates do not correlate but morale among the cabin crew and the pilots are very similar.
Mr Jones could have equally well targeted the pilot group. perhaps with more effect.

[Blue Pineapple]

It is nice to know that I am soon to 'retire' as I am indeed an over 50 and about to pull the pin. Just wish the retirement kitty was indeed that healthy.
At least I have accumulated enough grey hair not to upset the EK statistics.
Unfortunately most of us here are in for a nasty surprise in a few days with the publishing of the April rosters. An early peek of mine (top bid) shows a roster that's in a few words is an unbelievable 92 hour nightmare. The impending train wreck will not be pretty but I plan on seeing it from afar!

[captainsmiffy]

Interestingly, the MORALE of the pilots with poor morals is also down....(let's please not describe their morals as 'loose', however, as this will undoubtedly lead to even more confusion between 'loose' and 'lose'!) :ugh::)

[nolimitholdem]

Emirates Chief Executive Tim Clark has recently weighed in. Late last year, he started to send a quarterly “update” email to employees, soliciting feedback from staff. But he also warned about gossip mongering: “I’m astonished by the range of colorful stories that sometimes do the rounds in our company,” he wrote in October. His advice, he continued, according to a copy of the email reviewed by the Journal, is to “keep well away from naysayers and gossips and focus instead on our ambition to be one of the most loved lifestyle brands.”


Perhaps Sir Timbit should respond publicly to the letter he received recently from an IO customer addressed to him personally, taking him to task for many things, such as his brutal leadership and treatment of his staff.

The letter is not gossip, it's fact. I will not post it nor the response out of respect for the author's identity. It must have hurt TC to have to read the true sentiment of someone he couldn't punish.

"Loved lifestyle brand"?! Pffft. Marketing nonsense. It's just a ruthless corporation intent on squeezing its labour as hard as it can without a thought for their humanity, with the benefit of being located in a jurisdiction with no worker rights. Simple bullying, really. This is now starting to bite back. Social media and the internet are a game-changer, the truth does get out.

How about publishing the results of the employee satisfaction survey, EK? Still waiting....

[ekwhistleblower]

Pedantry alive and well, must be a private eye reader😉 you'll love the link.

Attrition rate now is meaningless, the trend is the key. If attrition moves from say 2.2 to 2.7% only 17 more people have resigned in a month based on 3500 pilots over the year. But.....if that 17 becomes the norm, the true rate has just jumped to 6%. Ripples are manageable, waves are not!

The surprise to me is that I know now of 3 guys that have left without jobs to go to, happy to leave and then take time to go back to work. I feel sorry for the recruiters who have to try and manage the situation; they need assistance from above but history suggests that may not be forthcoming based on some of the previous pronouncements. Anyway let's be optimistic, here is the thread from the last pilot's meeting, that was a shocker.

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/120828-emirates-pilot-meeting.html

[drop kick]

Thanks for that captain, like many on this network English isn t my first language, perhaps the content and thread is more important than a cheap shot:ugh:

[Schnowzer]

I remember that meeting, I had to leave at half time to avoid saying something that would've got me fired! Amazing how long ago the spiral commenced, there were some great quotes fom that meeting which escape me as I head off to the pub!

[captainsmiffy]

Apologies, Drop....I meant no harm. Your turn of phrase, otherwise, does not suggest that english is not your first language! There you go, a compliment!

[break dancer]

It's always funny to see the perk quoted "as being driven to and from work".

If the company didn't provide it, crew would arrive when legally required, either 1 hr or 1.5 hrs before departure, and every flight would be delayed. The company only does something for it's own benefit!!

[DuneMentat]

They only provide transport because they have to by law as no areas is served by public transport 24/7 which is our working hours. They could however probably get away with busses as has been suggested before for common areas like dso or maydan.

[han.solo]

A big bunch of guys has been asked to go to the clinic to have their sickness records verified. Even if the sickness was certified. Looks like these boys do not even trust their own doctors. They are asking for access to confidential medical records and managment will decide on the authenticity of the medical issue. Don't they learn?

[fatbus]

Legal report time 1 hr prior could mean you find you own way to the A/C and swipe a card to prove you were there on time.becareful what you ask for.

[harry the cod]

fatbus

Not really sure what you're implying there. 60 minutes is the report time before duty, not 'at the a/c'. We are required to conduct a pre flight brief beforehand so it's quite acceptable to get to the plane 45 minutes before departure. That would still allow enough time to prep and go.

What I find amazing is how 99% of our colleagues are quite happy to brief cabin crew 23 minutes before official report and be on the bus 8 minutes later. It's bad enough as it is but when it follows a day off and you're on a 0700 or 0710 departure, you're actually violating your previous day off by starting a duty before 0600.

Still, as long as we all complain on PPRune, I'm sure things will change...........

Harry

[JAARule]

That pilots meeting thread (previous page) is a blast from the past. Some notable names in there too - Kaptin M before he split and started his own forum and master troll 411A before he fell off his perch from a coronary. But more importantly many former EK drivers who said their piece and left. And the same talk just goes round and round over a decade later.


That was the last of the big meetings, thanks to the complete loss of face by one of the speakers. If you want to know where the hatred of the "lazy pilots" comes from, that day was pretty much it. He lost his cool and the cheese slid off the cracker for a moment and revealed the dark, seething hatred underneath. Scary.


Maybe our good mod should re-open it for some reflection on days gone by.

[aussiefarmer]

Discontent at EK is hitting the press... I'm sure EK doesn't like that. Obviously some US newspapers are happy to bring this up now...

Labor Strife an Unwelcome Novelty for Emirates Airline - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/labor-strife-an-unwelcome-novelty-for-emirates-airline-1426857624)

(might need a suscription to see the whole article)

[lospilotos]

What I find amazing is how 99% of our colleagues are quite happy to brief cabin crew 23 minutes before official report...
Harry

99%? More like 100%

[fatbus]

Harry I understand where you are coming from , but OMA could change in a sec.
All pre flight done on board , all briefings done on board. Use to work for an unfit that was close to that.

[Marsellus]

Harry,

Why not having a group with specific professionals whom can assist in showing EK the real deal. Starting a dialogue with management. Instead of negative groups and whining on this forum. not saying you are.. But not like a union thing. Just a group of people who will represent the man and women on the line?

[nolimitholdem]

"Starting a dialogue with management".

If you really believe that is possible - to reason with the unreasonable, that it hasn't been tried a million times and ways - you truly have zero, absolutely less than no clue about Emirates, that part of the world, or the culture.

I suggest you forget about gleaning the details of expenses in Dubai. Your information is more fundamentally lacking: you have not one whit of the reality of being an EK employee, if you really believe anything can be accomplished by attempting what in most parts of the world seems logical.

The corporate culture is one of bullying, intimidation, and patronization. There is no choice, which is why so many are voting with their feet, and why so few are coming. The word is out, no matter what you choose to believe.

[Buford]

Marsellus, you seem to have lots of opinions about EK for someone who has absolutely no experience of them.

[in freedom]

Marsellus,

if you are not a management troll then you are living in deep denial of the realities in Dubai. Maybe listen to the guys who have lived there for years. Instead of knowing everything better because you have visited.

Your proposed pilot group will be seen as an attempt to found a union. What else would it be in their eyes if you want to speak for the pilot body. So your inaugural meeting will most likely land all of you in jail and thereafter get you deported.

Any kind of request or proposal to the management will get you into serious trouble. People are frightened for a reason. Unions are illegal, labour courts practically non-existent and people would be afraid to go there. Media is not free.

So the only way to spread the word is via the internet. And even then you have to be careful not to get caught as the recent case of a Facebook post outside the UAE has landed a guy in prison when he came back.

If you are not working for EK management then you should be grateful for people spending their time here and letting others know about the realities in Dubai. Because they are very hard to imagine for somebody coming from the Western world at least.

[fliion]

Marcellarse (I like that : > )

Starting a dialogue with mgt ? We did that, they were called the 'Thursday Arvo 3rd Floor Pilot to Mgt meetings" of which I attended more than one (the lady sitting behind me taking notes was interesting)...

Anyway I digress, so they kicked off until a few months later when MEL happened and then they were cancelled with immediate effect due to managements belief that it was now time for the Mgt to pilot mass "dress down lectures"

Talking Ed in his glorious heyday ..

Go away troll.

f.

[SOPS]

I was at one of those meetings with Ed, he managed to seriously upset a very well respected Captain, who told him that if he did not apologise for what he had just said, that he would meet him in the car park......not rumour, fact.

[sluggums]

Marcellarse is trolling all the EK threads with his puritanical rubbish...ignore.

[flareflyer]

maybe rather then ignoring marsellus it could be good to explain him things he or they don't see.......
I know, talking to arrogant is almost impossible but maybe he is just the messenger........

[jidder]

Great post, nearly wet myself laughing :ok:

J :E

[Marsellus]

Bedford, as you provided me some info without the pathetic, emotional, whining childish, propaganda comments. I feel like responsible to provide you with an answer.

I am not a wannabe as such, I could join EK years ago and can join now- or even as DEC. If the open slots again in the future for the 777.

I don't have any connections with EK management. I do have connections with pilots inside EK. Actually pilots / friends that are happy and content with the package. I am fully aware of what's going on in EK. But are the people that are calling me a troll aware of the status / situation for example; in Europe?

I feel sorry for those that are so emotional and so unhappy with their current job package and Expat life.

Life and work needs to be balanced. EK, like many other carriers are struggling to get experienced Pilots with basic airmanship. My guess is that the next few years will be very difficult.

Supply & Demand.

EK as many others are very shortsighted and hire people temporary who join the brand in management- but have no personal attachment than to save costs and look good for their next new job adventures..

I maybe sound as EK management. But believe me, I AM NOT! EK doesn't care about replying on this forum. They allow you to talk as the unmentionable has its own restrictions... Don't they?

Bedford is correct- in my own airline aliases are subjected to court cases in the past. Court cases much different that the ones in UAE. PPrune will provide your details.

My cause is for the people that are in difficult situations and maybe see EK as an escape for better T&C's. I am sure that they don't start a thread here due to the sort of bullying I'm on.. Just respect each other and don't blame guys like me.

In 25 years the core of pilots in EK didn't manage anything as stated by someone here. Maybe it's time to realize that the golden days are over! Try and use a different angle to fight for.

[Rather Be Skiing]

So here is an interview articulating the antithesis of current management philosophies at EK. Wonder if he would unretire?

http://www.freeenterprise.com/story/management-advice-from-gordon-bethune-the-ceo-who-saved-continental-airlines/

[Monarch Man]

RBS, in order for that kind of management model to work there would need to be a few things changed around here.
1. An entire cultural change to the ethos, i.e staff matter
2. Open and honest non-jeopardy communication, not just paying lip service to it. i.e. You raise a genuine objection, 6 months later you are "resigned" for another "unrelated" matter.
3. A review and removal of the nepotism in the various "empires" masquerading as internal departments.
4. Personal accountability based on defined performance, not nationality.
5. About 50 other things as well.

Will never happen at EK.

[Rather Be Skiing]

RBS, in order for that kind of management model to work there would need to be a few things changed around here. 1. An entire cultural change to the ethos, i.e staff matter 2. Open and honest non-jeopardy communication, not just paying lip service to it. i.e. You raise a genuine objection, 6 months later you are "resigned" for another "unrelated" matter. 3. A review and removal of the nepotism in the various "empires" masquerading as internal departments. 4. Personal accountability based on defined performance, not nationality. 5. About 50 other things as well. Will never happen at EK.

I know that only too well. Could only be possible if it was driven from the very top.
So, as you say, ain't gonna happen. But, you know, dreaming is free!

[wrightnow]

Talking to management? They know exactly what is going on, but choose not to admit to any mismanagement. Flight cancellations will wake them up but not pilots.
There are as many reasons to leave as there are reasons to join. Very different, very personal. My time is up, after 8 years, and I had a good run. Unfortunately, things have deteriorated ever since I joined and I don't see myself flying 100 hrs until retirement (that would amount to another 15.000hrs). My quality of work has gone down, and since it is not quality that EK is looking for, but quantity, there's no reason for me to stay.
I sincerely hope that live-balance issues change for the better for those of you who stay.
Cheers guys

[cerbus]

So do I but I'm not optimistic about things getting better at EK.
Hope I'm wrong too.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Just out of curiosity…

Do any of you or our colleagues at EK think things will get better at EK in the future?

I realize those on Pprune are generally considered the vocal minority but honestly…. does anyone here REALLY think this place will get better?

I've kept saying to myself, "hang in there, its got to get better… can't get much worse". Yet, every 6 months or so give or take…. sure enough… it gets worse!

Have any of you flown with colleagues who really think it will get better here? For me, not even a huge pay rise will do the trick….

Kap

FYI… I do NOT!

[Neptune Spear]

I put up a post on another thread asking that very question, does anyone think it is going to get better at Emirates and no one answered in the affirmative.
I know ppprune is just a slice of the pilot population but I haven't found any pilot in the last 6 months that says it is going to get better. Most are unhappy and dispondent about way things have turned out at Emirates. I know some pilots have nowhere to go so they are more dispondent but I have not found anyone that says they are happy and means it.
Here's hoping for some positive replies from those applications that went out and here's hoping for 15-16 weeks profit share. A double dose of good news.

[alwayzinit]

Kapt, as Ive stated before I believe that this May is fundamentally critical for the future of EK.

Like you literally everyone who I have flown with over the last 6 months has had enough, no life, no recovery time and no improvement coming down the tracks.

Someone mentioned that 40% of whatever new joiners arrive are to replace guys who have left, the maths of that being a sustainable policy just doesn't add up long term.

A new joiner FO from Europe I flew with the other day said EVERY Captain whom he had flown with on the line was gearing up to leave depending on the May announcement.

Mrs A and myself are slap bang in that group too as are most of my chums.

There's a storm coming that is for sure.

[SOPS]

I don't think a storm is coming....I think it's allready arrived.

And I have the feeling that the new rostering system will be the next kicker.

[alwayzinit]

Need someone to walk your Dogs SOPS? I also bait hooks and carry bags!!!:\

[Gusz]

Hello mr SOPS
Now that you're no longer part of ek and are back home, do you have any stories about your trips,dubai life,crewmembers you like to share..
Cheers!

[SOPS]

You're welcome to walk with us mate. Be nice to share a coffee, but as I keep telling you...I am not buying a boat :ok:

And Gusz......sorry not on this forum.

[Gusz]

Understood, just to clarify I meant funny stories, not boring kind of stories. Enjoy retirement!!

[aileron droop]

so all this hiring wont stop the 90 plus hours in the next year(s) to come???
i mean how many more will reduce this frenzy of hours?
considering the orders they will receive?

[ironbutt57]

I've always wondered if indeed companies here in the region do indeed reap what they sow....seems they all start with reasonable folks highly experienced in their field, who then move on, leaving it to hordes of middle managers who wreak havoc, cutting, slashing left and right, present their "accomplishments" then disappear back to wobbly-head land, leaving a trail of destruction which is followed again and again by the followers, who have no interest in anything other than appeasing their seniors, collecting their rewards, and again disappear, leaving things worse off than they were when they arrived, and the folks who do have an interest in making things work, in an unsustainable, and undesirable work environment..shame really that...

[JosuaNkomo]

"I've always wondered if indeed companies here in the region do indeed reap what they sow....seems they all start with reasonable folks highly experienced in their field, who then move on, leaving it to hordes of middle managers who wreak havoc, cutting, slashing left and right, present their "accomplishments" then disappear back to wobbly-head land, leaving a trail of destruction which is followed again and again by the followers, who have no interest in anything other than appeasing their seniors, collecting their rewards, and again disappear, leaving things worse off than they were when they arrived, and the folks who do have an interest in making things work, in an unsustainable, and undesirable work environment..shame really that..."


That has been demonstrated virtually everywhere south of the Sahara I am afraid. Once the " locals" get involved you are well and truly stuffed. It will get worse.

[Bring Back The Biff]

:ugh:The only solution to EK manning woes is to have sufficient crews to sustain rosters around 75hrs. Problem is, nobody wants to come and work 92hrs every month with no leave and no credit for ground duties or leave.

It would appear as though our current leadership 'team' is well out of his depth with ill-conceived initiatives and screaming rant sessions the daily norm. Highly experienced senior managers valuable input is constantly ignored, completely inappropriate management appointments made on the basis of wasta... and so the list goes on...

There has been a significant increase in the number of pilots actively considering other options in recent months and the surprising thing is it's not just Captain's who have been here for 'long enough' - FO's approaching command are looking to go elsewhere.

It feels like this is the decision point for EK - fundamental leadership attitude change, or gradual descent into disaster...

[Panther 88]

BBTB, You got it right, brother. Simply put and woefully accurate.

[jidder]

:D

We all saw this train wreck coming! Seems all the other airlines are wise to the situation at EK... Coming to Dubai to " Bring you home" and offer "Friendly atmosphere "

Our management really need to pull their head out:mad: " Quality of life "

No more working us to the MAX and stop treating us like prisoners with restrictions on our rosters:=:=:=

Reap what you sow...

J :E

[VLS with ice]

About 130 resignations since March according to a mate who handed his in last week....