Pay Question Regarding the Award

[slim pickings]

If the aircraft that I fly is not specifically mentioned in the award how do I determine what I should be being paid. All assistance greatly appreciated.

SP.

[iPahlot]

There should be provision for MTOW brackets.

[Horatio Leafblower]

The base salary is grouped in brackets of Max Take-off weight, as iPahlot said.

UTBNI ("Up to but not including") 3360 kg ($45,201) is right for a Chieftain I think, and the next tier (3360-5660kg, $47,001) for a C404 or Conquest or KingAir.

If you are employed by a regional airline, you will be paid in accordance with Schedule C - that's the only section that nominates any particular type.

If you are in Charter or instructing you get the MTOW groups - Schedule B - page 43 of the current award dated Nov 2014.

Sleep well :bored:

[slim pickings]

Doesn't really help. I believe I fall into schedule C but the aircraft is not listed there. I've asked the AFAP (yes I'm a member) and they were pretty damn useless to be honest. And the additions are difficult to interpret. It's very frustrating.

:ugh:

[Ixixly]

How about telling us what you're flying and what type of flying you're doing and I'm sure we can be a lot more helpful!

[slim pickings]

Unfortunately I can't do that. Can any fellow AFAP members recommend anyone in the organisation that would be willing to see it through? Thus far the AFAP rep hasn't shed much light on it. I expect and respect that they're always busy.

[Ixixly]

Can you tell us the approximate MTOW of the Aircraft? Is it Single or Multi? Turbine or Piston? IFR or VFR? You really gotta give us some info to work with if the info Horatio didn't make sense to you.

[Ixixly]

Remember that even though you might be in a "Regional Airline" which is what it seems you are saying by thinking you're Schedule C, Schedule B still applies to Airlines/General Aviation, I'd personally say if you can't find your specific Aircraft in Schedule C then use Schedule B, locate it's Maximum TOW, sounds like you're in something 30+ Seats which means if it's not specifically mentioned and it's not either a:
1. Narrow Body Aircraft
2. Wide Body Aircraft - Single Deck
3. Wide Body Aircraft - Double Deck
Then you'll fall under the "Multi engine 15000 kg UTBNI 19000 kg" which is $62,460 for a Captain or $46,418 for a Co-Pilot as you seem to be assuming a "Regional Airline" you'll also undoubtedly have to apply the following allowances:

B.1.3 (a) For Commuter Operations $1366.17 Per Annum
B.1.3 (b) If you are required to hold an ATPL $4509.10 Per Annum
B.1.3 (c) For Turbo-Prop $5949.92 Per Annum or
B.1.3 (d) For Turbo-Jet $9555.71 Per Annum
(a) (c) and (d) are only done at 65% if you are a Co-Pilot

B.1.4 Instrument Flight Rating
Command - $5464.67 Per Annum
Co-Pilot - $3553.53 Per Annum

Then there are extras if you're a Check Pilot, Senior Pilot, Chief Pilot etc...

But Basically for a Captain around $79,000 - $84,000 Depending on if you're TurboProp or TurboJet and then for Co Pilot around $59,000 - $63,000 depending and these of course do not include any extras for Check Pilot, Senior Pilot or Chief Pilot nor does it take into account any extras for away from base, meals etc...etc...

If you can give me specifics I can tell you more precisely what you should be on, but without that I can only give rounded figures like the above. These also check out with the Schedule C Aircraft rates, for instance a Dash 8 which is almost exactly 19,000kg and falls into it's own category in both is put down as $75,000 for a captain which is reasonably close.

These are all Minimums afterall, they are meant to be "Guidelines" or a "Safety Net", if you think you're being underpaid by your employer then just go directly to AFAP and tell the and they should be able to handle it reasonably quickly.

[tail wheel]

Call Lawrie Cox at the AFAP, Phone: 03 9928 5737.

Tell him Tail Wheel sent you and if he doesn't resolve your problem we'll light his name up in lights on PPRuNe!

:} :}

[Damien1989]

I was looking into this a couple of months ago and ran into the same problem. I don't think you can just change from schedule C to B as you please. If you read the definitions at the start of the award, the reality is, most GA operations in Australia still fall under "Regional Airline".
I'll give a hypothetical scenario. You're a C208 pilot flying under schedule C IFR. It's not stated anywhere what you should be paid....

[iPahlot]

Just elaborating from what Ixixly said, "Regional Airline" seems to be a term which is a little misleading. The first thing that should tweak anyones spidey senses that the term is not what most pilots would call "Regional Airlines" is the fact that Schedule C has provisions for C206, C207 and C210 "Captains" under "Regional Airlines".

My guess is that "Regional Airline" was coined many moons ago when remote charter outfits were actually used as quasi RPT style outfits to allow people from remote communities to commute to more major regional centres. Perhaps when CASA was a little more pro-aviation rather than following the "lets make sure we can't get sued" mantra.

As a side note I also find it amusing that Beechcraft is misspelled numerous times "Beechcraf" and "Beechcrall"

[Lawrie Cox]

Hey there Tailwheel you need to catch up. I finished up with the Feds last July, headed into semi retirement. Still around as a trustee director at AvSuper. Enjoyed my 28 years and made a lot of good friends and of course a share of enemies. Still see relations and the splinter groups diminishing the professional pilot standing.
On the question in this topic the Federal Government in its infinite wisdom created a single award combining all the existing awards which is why confusion exists in the part A,B,C, etc... The allowances were turned into a percentage of one figure 'to make it easier' for employees to understand. Thats working real well of course.
As has already been said the MTOW is the basic calculation and if you are in the established regional carriers that were part of the SAL/Regional Award then the base applies but all those carriers have there own EBAs so the Award is not relevant.
Still be around from time to time to answer a question or two if needed.
Best Regards
Lawrie Cox

[Damien1989]

Lawrie,

Without having the award in front of me. Under what would normally be considered "Regional Airline" I am wondering if you use schedule B MTOW to calculate your base wage, does that mean you use schedule B for all of your minimum allowance calculations also. Eg from memory, under schedule B you are entitled to alot more allowances for things like turbine engine and IFR

[Lawrie Cox]

Damien
No other way around the B were all rolled in to the amount and A had the additions. There were some heavy jets put in there as well to cover the jurisdictional requirements and those who tried the we are award free arguments. As I said its messy due to merge/mash of previous awards but the vast majority of regional has no relevance due to EBA in place. My thoughts to the original question is probably part A with additions will give the answer.

[tail wheel]

Lawrie, I could have guessed you'd be snooping around........ :E

Hey there Tailwheel you need to catch up. I finished up with the Feds last July, headed into semi retirement.

Goodness gracious, you retired? I thought you had a life time, fully paid vocation? I'll bet a few operators breathed a sigh or relief, eh?? :} :}

Lawrie, my sincere best wishes for your retirement and a full active life for many years. I too am retired, if you ever head up this way I'll take you out fishing!! :ok:

And to those looking on, Lawrie and I were on opposing sides of the table for more years than I care to remember, but had mutual respect.

Or maybe we weren't on opposing sides, maybe both of had the same real concerns for the people I employed! :ok:

Lawrie, when I write that book "How to employ pilots outside the jurisdiction of the Award and AFAP" I'll get you to write the Forward!! What a ball we had with that one!!! :} :} :}

[Horatio Leafblower]

Goodness me.

You can't just read the Award and interpret it to suit yourself. :ugh:

I don't think you can just change from schedule C to B as you please. If you read the definitions at the start of the award, the reality is, most GA operations in Australia still fall under "Regional Airline". (my bold).

How do GA operations fall under "Regional Airline"?

From the Award definitions:
general aviation employer means an employer in the industry of operating aircraft for purposes other than providing commercial scheduled passenger and freight air transport services....

If your employer does not engage in RPT services, you are probably in GA.

My argument completely falls apart with their definition of "Regional Airline":
regional airline means an employer operating aircraft for the primary purpose of transporting goods and passengers by scheduled commercial air services or charter by air...

Nicely played Julia, Well done Fair Work, another masterpiece := :yuk: :suspect: :rolleyes:

HOWEVER

Let's take a C404 Line pilot:

Schedule B: $47001 + MECIR ($5464) + Piston Commuter RPT ($1366.17) + allowances (mostly same as Schedule C) = $53831.17

Schedule C: Group 3: $50,658

[Horatio Leafblower]

You're a C208 pilot flying under schedule C IFR. It's not stated anywhere what you should be paid....

I am sure you can interpolate - C208 fits in between the C207 and the C210 doesn't it? :}

[Ixixly]

There is a simple reason for that Horatio, the MTOW brackets are very generalised, as you can see it covers from 3360kg to 5660kg in your case, so the 47,000 is says has to cover any aircraft, it's more like a median, easiest way to view it,

5660kg - 3360kg = 2300 / 2 = 1150 + 3360 = 4510
Then take 47001 / 4510 = $10.422 per kg of MTOW

C404 from memory is 3810kg MTOW so 3810 * 10.422 = 39707.82

Add on the allowances as follows:
B.1.3 (a) For Commuter Operations $1366.17 Per Annum
B.1.3 (b) If you are required to hold an ATPL $4509.10 Per Annum
B.1.4 Instrument Flight Rating Command - $5464.67 Per Annum

so 39707.82 + 1366.17 + 4509.10 + 5464.67 = $51,047.76
Group 3 C404 Captain is $50,658 which makes a difference of $389.76. So in actuality it goes above what is required as the C404 is a Single Pilot Aircraft therefore the Pilot does not require an ATPL even though it makes the assumption that they will be utilising one (Which is the most likely scenario of course).

It seems more complicated than it really is but when you apply some logic it begins to make a bit more sense. The $10.422 per kg of MTOW is not a common number through all brackets, it's more like $17 in the lower brackets but it's a good way to interpolate and see how they came to their Schedule C counterparts.

Basically what it is saying is that regardless of whether you're flying a C404 VFR, IFR, Single Crew or Multi-Crew, with or without an ATPL if you're flying for a Regional Airline you're doing the work that would most likely require all of those so therefore you should be paid accordingly.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Ixylixy,

While it makes sense that a C404 driver should be paid roughly the same no matter what he does, your statement

Basically what it is saying is that regardless of whether you're flying a C404 VFR, IFR, Single Crew or Multi-Crew, with or without an ATPL if you're flying for a Regional Airline you're doing the work that would most likely require all of those so therefore you should be paid accordingly.

credits public servants with far more intelligence than is reasonable :*

We pay a base salary for C404 drivers according to Part B (up to 5560) with no interpolation, plus all the extras, because that's the minimum hard workers deserve :ok:

Correct me if I am wrong but I assume you are applying the interpolation as an example/comparison to benchmark the Airline scale? ...there is of course no provision for interpolation of base salries under Schedule B.

As for a justification of the slightly lower salaries in the "Regional Airline" scale, I submit that it is possibly a hangover from the bargaining power & leverage of larger employers of the time (being times long past, when regional airlines were goverened by awards and flew Titans on RPT...) rather than any logically derived formula. :ooh:

...not arguing with ya :ok:

[Ixixly]

Nah, not arguing at all, just something I noticed I felt was worth mentioning. And yeah, should have been clearer, not saying anyone should use interpolation for working out their pay based on the MTOW, just using that as a method to show how they probably arrived at their Schedule C amount.

And admittedly, I might be trying to apply a bit too much logic towards something that probably didn't have much logic applied to it in the first place!! Always bugged me how working it out on Flight Hours it all seems perfectly fine and fair, soon as you work it out on Duty Hours you might as well be out flipping burgers!