Maintenance costs

[Arnold E]

I am asking someone like Dick Smith, how much per hour do you think is a reasonable price to pay for maintenance on your aircraft. I do have a pre-conceived idea of what I think is reasonable, I am just wondering what you think. ofcourse I have a reason to ask this question, and that is, what do you think the LAME's that work on your aircraft should get paid. What do you think Dick, or any other rich owner??

[jas24zzk]

The whole question is a can of worms...

I get owners who baulk at paying 80 per hour(materials included) for me to do panel work on their mustang toy, but will happily pay 1 grand for an oil change on the new porsche.

I don't get it.....and have given up trying. Its now, that's the price, take it or leave it

[Eddie Dean]

The hourly rate for maintenance on you aircraft is not whatvthecLAME gets paid. The wage component is only part of the rate

[Hasherucf]

*Grabs Popcorn* :E

[Squawk7700]

If you were to do a survey you would probably find that the amount a rich owner is prepared to pay will likely be the same for a normal owner, possibly even less. Rich guys don't get rich by splashing cash on money gouging mechanics in any industry and aviation is no different.

A friend used to be Lloyd Williams gardner and if he was to get a small plumbing job done for example, Lloyd would always request that he got 3 separate quotes before authorizing the work to begin.

I know people with a $150,000 aircraft that wouldn't cough up $60 to buy a ticket to go to Avalon.

[gerry111]

Just so true, Squawk!

During 28 years of running a small business, I've learned a couple of things about so called 'wealthy people'.

Generally, they are borrowed to buggery. (That's apparently how you get rich!) And they aren't the best payers.

And the ones to really watch out for are the ones that are into horse racing.

Terms: Cash on completion of the job, thank you. No cheques please! :)

[Kulwin Park]

Depends on the type of aircraft, what category it is operated under, turbine or piston, VFR or IFR, and specialist equipment and tooling for the make and model required to be purchased or leased by the maintainer .........

Yes, please be specific to get an accurate answer. Do you own a Cessna 172, or a KingAir or a Beechcraft Baron IFR or a RV-10?

What jacks is required - what calibration and types of engine equipment is required by the maintainer - this is how one will set their price?

Also, what subscription and full access to maintenance manuals will cost them, as a CASA requirement now? Some companies charge $1800 per year to have full access to the Piper or Cessna range. Engine manuals are on top of that depending on what powerplant you have?

What contract engineer do they have to sub-hire to complete the job to sign off? Engineers are type rated like pilots? Maybe you have a tail dragger and composite aircraft that requires a Composite GROUP 7 LAME rating? Very few around if there is a repair required, or a spar inspection or primary flight control surfcae inspection to be signed off if there is structural composites involved, eg - Cirrus range of aircraft.

Please elaborate your details.

I would safely say that any basic GA maintenance company in or near a city as a secondary GA airport would be charging about $85-95 per hour for a basic single engine aircraft in VFR category - Private or Aerial Work.
And $120 per hour based on a twin IFR and or corporate machine minimum. Turbine around $135 per hour.

Cheers, KP :)

[outofwhack]

With plumbers, electricians and car mechanics charging at least $100+ per hour who could quibble over a LAME charging 1 or 1.5 this rate given the difficulty of maintaining their licence and the liability they have.

Surely what should be the bigger concern is the inflated number of hours billed to some very simple jobs. On some basic aircraft I've been astonished at how they allocate excessive hours to jobs that obviously actually take a fraction of that time.

For an annual on a simple VFR single I'd rather see the actual number of hours done to the job and a $1000 issue fee for the MR instead of an imaginary extra 10 hours.

OOW

[27/09]

The hourly rate is only part of the equation. It's about getting value for money.

Some engineers I'd happily pay $100 plus per hour and there's others I'd baulk at paying $25 per hour.

It's what you get for that hours work, productivity wise and experience/expertise wise.

Some guys might be "cheap" but cost you big bucks with poor fault finding and diagnostic skills and unnecessarily replacing parts and overhauling parts or there's others who charging excess time to the job.

[PhillC]

The hourly rate for maintenance on you aircraft is not what the LAME gets paid. The wage component is only part of the rate

Correct. Firstly, add in PAYG and Superannuation costs. Then add in overheads such as electricity and water or council rates. Then add in non-billable staff such as accounts and stores personnel. Then add in other various costs of doing business, such as premises rent or loan servicing, tool calibration, insurance and vehicle costs to name a few. All these items need to be included in the overall hourly rate the maintenance organisation charges to the customer.

Also, what subscription and full access to maintenance manuals will cost them, as a CASA requirement now? Some companies charge $1800 per year to have full access to the Piper or Cessna range.

Looking at a quote from 2013, subscription costs to the ATP "BPAT Piper Complete Airframe Library Media: Digital W/backup Disc option" costs a little over US$3,600. Library BE4A, which is ATP's big bundle of all piston aricraft airframes and engines, is in excess of US$11,000. This quote is two years old, but I wouldn't expect prices to be less.

[AbsoluteFokker]

Jandakot, Perth you'd be hard-pressed to find maintenance at under $120/hr for basic work.

[Ethel the Aardvark]

Hi Clinton, as C of R holder you direct your maintenance provider as to what maintenance you want carried out. If your provider is willing for you to sign a waiver saying that you do not want certain parts carried out then that should suffice. However you may need test cases and ultimately you would wear the can. An engineer is guided by the aircraft system of maintenance.
What areas are you talking about.
I understand one Jandakot maintenance org is paying $12000 per month rates so thats a lot of outlay before you even start on wages etc.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

as C of R holder you direct your maintenance provider as to what maintenance you want carried out.

Huh?

(plus enough other words to make a post)

[Ethel the Aardvark]

Quite agree Clinton, Ad's and CAO 100.5 have to be done. However the C of R holder chooses what maintenance is carried out, usually schedule 5 or the manufactures system of maintenance. I know of some maintenance providers who will have the C of R holder sign a waiver if they do not want some non safety of flight defects rectified. Your call, you just have to be able to justify it.
You can of course make your own system of maintenance and have it approved by CASA.

[Old Akro]

Hourly labour cost is a naive question which completely misses the main issues.

One of the big questions is why so many jobs in Australia require more labour hours than the US?

Another would be accountability of time. You get a job done ny a car mechanic and you get an itemised bill. I have literally had invoices from LAME's with a single line entry for labour for $10,000. How many guys? Doing what? - we'll never know!

My other gripe is that with a car, you'll get a phonecall about replacing a $100 set of brake pads. With an aeroplane I have had "surprise" invoices of $30,000 with no prior warning. Car mechanics return old parts, or have them on hand to show you. I've never had that experience with a LAME.

[Ethel the Aardvark]

Hi Clinton, I would suggests for your own system of maintenance you would need sufficient data probably gained over several years justifying that your fuel and compass calibration has not changed between checks. Personally I think that fuel cals should be done every 4 years and compass cals done at engine change but that may still be too much for some people and not enough for the regulator.

[Eddie Dean]

fuel cals should be done every 4 years and compass cals done at engine changeFuel cals are 48 month.
Compass swing required on engine change and 24 months

[Jabawocky]

…...we could draw a lot more, and not just from the FAA!

Speaking of maintenance and CASA. Funny but true story emerged from Avalon Air Show. The WWI aircraft display included a highly unusual (in the modern day) rotary engine. Not the Mazda kind either.

CASA insisted on attempting to ground the aircraft due to multiple engine falterings (failures) during the mock battles. Whoever the CASA Expert was, attacked the very guy who brought them their with accusations and zero research, rather than go and ask the question about the apparent failures. There is still doubt as to whether the truth of the matter had sunk in after his educational moment.

Mark Skidmore who likewise had no idea what or how one worked (and was keen to learn) was at least going to follow it up with the gestapo………..but one would doubt the offender learned anything from the experience.

So despite perfectly normal operation and lovingly maintained….you can still be grounded or an attempt on it at least, despite what the MR says.

What hope have you got with compasses and fuel gauges then :uhoh:

[Squawk7700]

CASA insisted on attempting to ground the aircraft due to multiple engine falterings (failures) during the mock battles

I noticed this, however I thought it was one of those engines that runs flat chat until you turn the ignition off and on again. I've seen one at the Tyabb airshow from memory where the pilot cleverly turns ignitions on and off frequently.

[Tankengine]

That is Jabba's point Squark.:ok:
The engine was running normally. (For it!:E)

What many may not know, since it looks like a radial, is that it works quite differently.
Amongst other things the crankshaft is bolted to the aircraft and the prop is bolted to the engine!

[Old Akro]

I would suggests for your own system of maintenance you would need sufficient data probably gained over several years justifying that your fuel and compass calibration has not changed between checks.

Yep, done that! Went through 30 years of log book entries and put every one in a spreadsheet.

The main thing I learned is that a lot of LAME's can't calibrate properly.

Most of the calibrations that CASA impose do nothing other than raise the cost of aircraft operation.

[Jabawocky]

Squawkie and Tankengine :ok:

Was not that hard after all. :hmm:

[Eddie Dean]

Segue from what should maintenance cost, to Casa are wankers before the end of second page.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Price per hour is immaterial if the workshop:

1/. is not managed competently
2/. covers up every mistake
3/. passes off sub-standard work as competent
4/. will not follow their own systems and as a consequence makes major ****ups like pulling the wrong engine and bulk-stripping it.

I have found very few workshops and Chief engineers that are trustworthy and that consider themselves partners in our business (as opposed to simply the beneficiary of a blank cheque every 100 hours) :=

The biggest fcukup can be fixed but it doesn't take much of a cover-up to ruin everything.

[The name is Porter]

I've had work done by about 10 of them. One of them has stuck to his word on pricing. Two have damaged my aircraft and refused to repair it. The nine that haven't stuck to their word are varying degrees of thief.

They have obviously been taught that they have the client by the nuts by simply not signing the aircraft out until the bills are paid. Not an ounce of integrity amongst them.

[Perspective]

Well that didn't take long..

[Hasherucf]

Another LAME bashing thread. Brilliant!

What is the average age of a LAME ? Anecdotally someone said it was early 60's . Guess you wont have to worry about crap LAME's soon as the wont exist. Anecdotally told the number of licences overall reduced last year too. Like to see data on that but CASA website hasn't updated statistics on that for last 10 years. Wonder why ?

I went into private maintenance for the past two years. Quickly tired of dealing with 4 or 5 different workshops and all their customers different maintenance expectations. Chinese whispers on defects and every ones different price point expectations.

Work for a fleet operator now. He understands the industry and maintenance requirements. Operator gives me the time and support I need . He is happy, I am happy and grossly overpaid. Screw dealing with private owners.

[Old Akro]

Here are my requirements from LAME's. Hasherucf and others, please tell me where I am being unreasonable.

1. When you find something wrong that requires repair, tell me before you start work - not after. I get cranky when I get a $30,000 annual invoice with no warning (true story).
2. Bill the hours that you work. By all means, stop for morning tea, chat with friends. But don't bill me. And remember there are only so many working hours in a day. I can count hours on an invoice and divide by the days you've had the aircraft.
3. If you make a mistake or break something, you fix it at your expense, not mine.
4. Know the AD's for my aircraft. Do them when they are required, not because you guess rather than checking.
5. Have a copy of the maintenance manual for my aircraft. I should not have to supply it for you.
6. Know the difference between a self tapping screw and a metal thread screw. Use them in the correct holes, do not interchange them.
7. Please try and put the proper screws back in the proper holes. Long ones when they are required, short ones when they are required.
8. Silicone was never designed to fix panels because you lost a screw.
9. Have the correct tools. Do not skip scheduled maintenance because you lack the tool.
10. Check what is behind a panel before you substitute a longer (sharp point) hardware store self tapping screws. Its especially annoying when avionics LAME's do this and drive a self tapping screw through a wiring harness.
11. Do not ever use a power drill to do up screws.
12. If an aircraft is supposed to have 8 QTS of oil, then add 8 - not 10. There is a reason dip sticks have lines & numbers.
13. If I booked my aircraft in a month before the 100 hourly and you know it will need oil filters, air filters and instrument filters, surely they can be ordered BEFORE the aircraft arrives? The aircraft not being ready because its waiting for parts which you did not order does not play well.
14. I know how many spark plugs are in my aeroplane and I keep old invoices. If you want to increase the invoice total, find a smarter way.
15. Back on screws. After I go to the trouble of getting a matching set of black screws for the instrument panel, I do not expect to see a mix of black, zinc plated and S/S screws on the instrument panel when I get it back.
16. Do not leave my painted cowl panels lying around on your concrete floor paint side down. I do not like picking up an aircraft with more scratches than when I left it. If you do some damage to the paint and feel the responsibility to touch it up, then please at least try to match the colour.

[The name is Porter]

That sounds like some sort of charter to me Akro? Something that other trades and professions implemented 10, 20 years ago? Other trades don't get to hide behind a maintenance release and not signing it with no regard to customers concerns being dealt with.

[Eddie Dean]

old Akro's litany of errors is cause for concern. The workshop invoved would stand to lose it's CofA had you pursued the matter

[Squawk7700]

Good post Old Alro, coincidentally I was talking to a LAME today when he mentioned how another LAME put an extra long screw through a dash and into the top of a VHF radio. It's not just your shop that suffers these problems.

[Jabawocky]

Having spoken to Akro a few times in the past,I know he is a firm and maybe reasonably serious person, but unreasonable or hard arsed is not my interpretation.

His post is fair and reasonable. I know and have seen all and worse than he has posted.

By the way Akro is not a dumb ass plane owner, he is an engineer who I would respect as being far brighter than I am. :sad:

Just like pilots, accountants and lawyers (unlike CASA inspectors)……..LAME's are accountable for their work too.

[Jabawocky]

CTRE

You pay peanuts? You'll get monkeys.

Yeah you would think so…… Sadly I have seen (not my bills but associates bills) payment in gold bars and not peanuts and had results even a monkey would be embarrassed about. One springs to mind very close to my location. So bad that the majority of planes on that field will not be maintained there. Was once a premium shop.

The sad thing is the peanuts and monkeys analogy should hold true but seems not to. Well not always anyway.

YMMV of course.

[LeadSled]

CASA insisted on attempting to ground the aircraft due to multiple engine falterings (failures) during the mock battles.

Jaba,
That reminds me of an incident at YSBK a little while back --- one Saturday morning, turning up to use his Chieftain, a very well known character found a large orange CASA "Unserviceable" sticker on the aircraft --- the problem being damage to propellers from an unreported "gear up" event.

Needless to say, the owner's weekend was completely screwed.

The "damage" was that the aircraft was fitted with Q-Tip propellers, in perfect condition.

Sadly, such abysmal ignorance is a bit too common amongst AWIs and FOIs.

Tootle pip!!

[Creampuff]

If that story is true, Leadsled, the owner is as stupid as the arseclown that applied the U/S sticker. I would have just gone flying. Perhaps the U/S sticker was a joke?

Reminds me of the joke patch that clamps to a propellor blade and looks like someone's riveted a carbon fibre doubler patch to a blade to 'repair' a crack. It takes a special kind of ignorance or stupid to take that seriously.

What I don't understand is why, in this world of cameras everywhere and instant downloads to the electric interweb, no one videod the CASA arseclown in action at Avalon. Public official on official duties in public - fair game for the cameras.

[rutan around]

I would have just gone flying. Perhaps the U/S sticker was a joke?

Fortunately I've never had a U/S sticker slapped on my aircraft. Does anyone know if it's just a DO NOT FLY sticker or does it give some reason ? If no reason is given I suppose one would just have to wait till 9 am on the first CASA working day after the sticker was found in order to find out just why the aircraft was grounded. In a BS case like the example can CASA be sued for lost time and revenue ?

[Eddie Dean]

Maybe urban myth. I have seen aircraft grounded with details and contact number

[Creampuff]

I haven't asked for the miscreant's permission, so I'll keep it anonymous.

http://i57.tinypic.com/o10p5x.jpg

The caption in the original post says:Eventually an FAA guy came buy and Red-Tagged the airplane! I laughed my ass off. I simply took the red tag and wrote on it, "Inspected, found airworthy, and returned to service" and handed it back to him. He was having a stroke! He demanded that the airplane not move. I said I was going to fly it in about an hour.

After this went on until it no longer amused me, I simply rotated the prop and removed the fake repair sleeve. Then the guy was really pissed. As he walked off,his red tag in his hand, the fairly large group that had gathered was laughing uncontrollably.

[The name is Porter]

He's not exactly anonymous Creampuff! lol. He probably wouldn't give a rats arse if you identified him.