Rogerson Kratos Huge Repair Cost – Again!

[Dick Smith]

Readers of this site will no doubt remember my posting of 2007 in relation to having a repair done on my Rogerson Kratos Attitude Indicator from my Agusta A109E helicopter - the display part number is 160E015-3.

Well, I have now had another fault in my unit and I was told by Rogerson Kratos that the repair cost could be anything from USD26,700 (AUD 34,300) to USD53,400 (AUD68,600).

Initially they insisted we pay USD3,500 (AUD4,500) up front for the evaluation charge. They have now come back and quoted me USD44,500 (AUD57,000) for the repair - and they have pointed out that the warranty will only be twelve months!

I have four of these displays in the helicopter and the helicopter is now over ten years old but has only done 850 hours. If the other three displays develop problems in the next twelve months, I could be up for over USD120,000 (AUD154,000) in repairs!

These stupendous costs are totally beyond my comprehension. How could it cost such a large amount of money to repair such a small device? If I had the Garmin IFR-approved 600 display, the quoted overhaul cost is USD1,200 (AUD1,540). How can the Rogerson Kratos price be up to 37 times more than Garmin? Even the large Garmin 1000 has a repair cost of around just USD1,500 (AUD1,900).

Can anyone advise if there is any alternative to having this unit repaired at a reasonable price? Or does anyone know if there is a supplier of second-hand units?

Another alternative will be to change my Agusta to Garmin displays – it would almost be economic to do this now. Does anyone know if there is a service bulletin for doing this?

In closing, surely U.S. law does not allow Rogerson Kratos to have a monopoly on this servicing where they will not give service information to anyone else and then charge incredibly high prices?

I look forward to any helpful advice.

[onetrack]

Dick - I've found from extensive purchasing and repair experience in another field, that businesses who pull this stunt, have only about 3 things in mind when they quote outrageous prices ...

1. They're not really interested in the repair, so they quote high, on the basis they care not a whit, whether they get the job or not ..
2. The item is obsolete or becoming obsolete, so they charge excessively to ensure you buy the replacement product ..
3. They think you are a captive customer and they think you can't go anywhere else ..

I would investigate other instrument repairers who have the capability to do the repair, or change the indicator to another brand.

You could also investigate the possibility of acquiring a complete replacement unit from an aviation spares supplier. There are 7 x 160E105-3's listed below, try an RFQ and see if the quotes are sensible.

Avspares.com - parts search (http://www.avspares.com/parts/search?parts=160E015-3)

[heliduck]

In closing, surely U.S. law does not allow Rogerson Kratos to have a monopoly on this servicing where they will not give service information to anyone else and then charge incredibly high prices?

Sounds a lot like Robinson Helicopters so I guess US law does allow it.

[GipsyMagpie]

Those screens are rubbish anyway. I have not seen a Garmin fit in an E but could you revert to the more mecahncial fit (upper mechanical ai and lower ehsi). Or the newer pfd and combination with bezel keys? Or does that hit the modification level with attendant authority fees?

[terminus mos]

I think you are lucky to have had only 2 failures in 7 years! I know an operator with a fleet of these screens who had so many failures that they bought most of the stock to use as replacements as an insurance policy for them being superseded.

They have never been known for their reliability. If you are going to keep the aircraft, I would look at a refit, or sell it and get a newer aircraft?

[22clipper]

Hey Dick I once purchased a good used R22 for about the same as RK want for that repair! Very egalitarian of the helicopter industry to attempt to keep us all broke, rich & poor alike.

Heliflite have exchange EFIS (http://www.heliflite.com.au/accessories/efis) in stock just swap the dud out & go flying man, we're not getting any younger!

[RVDT]

Dick,

Have you spoken to these codgers - Avincorp (http://avincorp.com.au)

[Dick Smith]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I am chasing all up
By the way. Are Rogerson Kratos units fitted to any current production aircraft?

Also who would be best to assist with certification of the Garmin 600 system in the 109E ? Only real difficulty I see is the autopilot coupling.

I have asked R K for a breakdown cost re parts and labor to no avail. Does anyone have contact details for someone who has worked there in the past?

[RVDT]

Dick,

By the way. Are Rogerson Kratos units fitted to any current production aircraft?

Apparently: Bell 412, Bell 427, Bell 430, Agusta A109E Helicopter, USAF C-18, Zeppelin NT, Boeing 727, 727 Simulators, Gulfstream 62, S-60, AS332, Erickson Air-Crane, Zeppelin LZ-07

I think you are chasing things the wrong way - go back to your friendly Agusta dealer and get Standard Exchange and suck it up.

RK probably have no connection or interest in the "end user".

I deal with Thales gear all the time and just do "standard exchange".

Fixed price - move on.

Getting your own gear fixed is the old way of doing things - we just change black boxes these days.

Plus it will be at the latest mod status.

[Dick Smith]

RVDT. Have you any idea what the standard exchange price is? Last time I checked it was over $50,000 Aus .

I don't think agusta use RK anymore in their current production 109e.

Do you pay personally these costs ? Or do you work for someone who pays? Possibly that's why you have a different view?

[onetrack]

surely U.S. law does not allow Rogerson Kratos to have a monopoly on this servicing where they will not give service information to anyone else and then charge incredibly high prices?You could fight this one for a long time Dick, before you won. Manufacturers will claim that their manufacturing/repair information is "commercially sensitive", and to hand out such information freely would be giving commercial advantage to others at the companies expense.

It took the vehicle smash repair industry in the U.S. a long time in the courts, and a lot of money, to force major vehicle manufacturers to release electronic repair information relating to vehicles, that the manufacturers had deemed "commercially sensitive".

The smash repairers declared it was costing them money to have to send vehicles under repair to dealerships, merely to deal with the likes of airbag disabling, and other extensive electronics in vehicles, that could have been done by the smash repairer.
As a result of the courts decision, the manufacturers were obliged to release a raft of electronics repair information - but not all it - because the courts did agree that some info was commercially sensitive.

Judging by the following employee reports, Rogerson Kratos can't justify their pricing on what they pay their employees - and it appears that the company is highly resistant to change. We all know what happens to organisations that resist change.

Rogerson-Kratos employee reviews (http://au.indeed.com/cmp/Rogerson-Kratos/reviews?id=2c745d94b220bc92)

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and throw out a component that is not only unreliable, but unrealistically priced as far as repairs go. It appears you have plenty of choices for replacement of the Rogerson-Kratos unit, and most of them would appear to be an upgrade, anyway.
Never forget that electronics development is an area that advances extremely rapidly, and 5 to 7 yrs in the age of a component can often mean your "state of the art" component, is effectively obsolete.

Sarasota Avionics - category - EFIS-glass-cockpit (http://sarasotaavionics.com/category/efis_glass-cockpit)

[Cough]

Don't forget that if you do upgrade, you may be able to sell your 3 working units for exorbitant prices...

[noooby]

Dick, AW don't use RK anymore due to reliability issues and costs!

Astronautics in the 109E/S and Cobham in the 109SP.

The Astronautics screens are plug and play for alter 109E's, but you would have to replace all four and they aren't really any cheaper than the RK screens. Slightly better perhaps, but with different issues!

As far as hooking up the autopilot to the Garmin. Don't. Just leave the autopilot with all its standard gyros and run the Garmin system separately. Much simpler and cheaper to STC.

I've gone down this road already with the G500H system and nearly managed to get an owner to do it, but he chickened out and replaced 3 RK screens instead! Could have done the whole STC just about for that money.

I can put you in touch with someone in North America who wants to do the G500H in the 109E, but I don't know how much help they would be to you from so far away.

[Dick Smith]

Noooby. Can you PM me this organisations details. I have also contacted Garmin to see if they are interested in an upgrade . That would spread the certification over many aircraft.

Does anyone have an email for International Defence Systems? They have a display for sale but we can not find a way of communicating with them!

[onetrack]

Dick - Here's the link to their "contact" page. As with many large organisations and companies, they do not advertise an email contact address to ensure corporate security.

IDS contact page (http://idsukltd.com/xe/contact_eUqx52)

[Dick Smith]

I sent an email to Tom Alloway, Director of Customer Service at Rogerson Aircraft asking quite simply,

“You mention that it is up to the technician to define the repair category. Surely you would be able to find out for me what parts are actually faulty and what has to be replaced? I simply cannot fathom how the cost can be so staggering”.

Tom Alloway sent me the following reply:

“The information included on the quotation and the details provided in the earlier email represent the extent of the information available to share.”

Can you imagine such a lack of ethics? They want to get more than AUD55,000 from me but they are not even prepared to tell me what they are doing for this amount of money! I wonder how Tom Alloway sleeps at night.

It’s interesting … in my business career I have had very few occasions of dealing with companies that lack basic ethics. Possibly I have been fortunate.

[500e]

Dick
Feel for you but this is what a few of us have been saying for years we are being taken for a ride, & the costs are escalating to a ludicrous extent.
RVDT
Your comment is what every manufacturer loves to hear, put in over priced new or refurbished equipment, a lot that was poor value to start with.
If the cost of these parts come out of your pocket, would you be so happy to spend $50K

[noooby]

Dick, you've been PM'd.

Let me know if there is anything further I can help with.

[helmet fire]

Re the Garmin cockpit: I would love a whole thread on aspects of what I am about to post, but thought that you may find this interesting Dick - especially with the passion you bring to change. I would like to have had the time to write a paper on the topic.... but time is something I don't have.

Given that the vast majority of our accidents are CFIT and so very few are engine failure related; AND
Given that CFIT almost never happens when pilots can see the ground...

then WHY are we so obsessed with the UK offshore's fixation on PC1 and not on bringing virtual or actual (NVG and IR) terrain displays to the cockpit?????

The reason I mention this to you Dick is that the Garmin cockpit has a very smart, very intuitive and very usable CFIT avoidance display and has been available since at least 2009 BUT it cannot be certified into transport category helicopters because Garmin and the FAA don't think there is a market there. It can be certified into the Class B machines and there is already an IFR Bo-105 that has been flying in Australia with the Garmin cockpit for several years - but I cannot fit it to our BK117! You should be able to get it for the A109...

But my question / point is: Why on earth does CASA not make sure this sort of tool gets certified instead of pursuing things like the PC1/PC2 requirement when we KNOW that this is not what is killing us?

Why are 3D terrain displays not mandated in all helicopters, including and especially transport category helicopters? Particularly those involved in night/IFR and EMS?

Why are the manufacturers still releasing cockpits that are not anywhere near the Garmin outcomes - B429, AW189, AW169, 412EPi, EC175, etc etc.
Why cannot I not retrofit our AW139 Airline Cockpit with a display that stops me hitting the ground because I can see it?- even after 3 CFIT in that acft type with another undetected descent below LSALT (all two pilot ops!)

You are somewhat blessed in the A109 that you could fit the Garmin cockpit but you may want to check it does not alter your operational category. For the rest us are too busy trying to ensure we have enough single engine power and correct HLS dimensions to worry about CFIT.

On second thoughts, I will start that other thread :8

[Dick Smith]

I have just heard that there is one Agusta operator who has three of the Rogerson Kratos screens that are faulty – a potential cost of more than USD150,000 to get them serviced. He is now planning to get out of helicopters!

[Dick Smith]

I have recently been given the attached photo/diagram of just how the Garmin G500H would go in the Agusta – it looks pretty good to me. What do others think?

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o570/margot23/garmin%20control%20panel_zps8fdrw24u.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/margot23/media/garmin%20control%20panel_zps8fdrw24u.jpg.html)

[krypton_john]

Looks cool - does it cover the minimum backup instruments though? Or do the copilot displays provide that?

Are the Garmin units type approved for the A109?

[noooby]

John, there looks to be an electronic backup to the left of the pilots screen, so that is sufficient for IFR backup instrumentation.

[Dick Smith]

One of the emails that has been sent to me states that sometimes it’s a diode inside the unit that fails and then they charge the standard repair cost. Can you imagine that? If this is true, it shows there is a basic lack of ethics.

[Dick Smith]

Can anyone advise if they know someone who is dismantling Agusta 109 aircraft? There must be someone around who is likely to have some spares but is not listed anywhere.

[krypton_john]

http://www.controller.com/list/salvagesearch.aspx?ETID=3&Manu=AGUSTA

[Ian Corrigible]

Not AW109 related, but in case of interest:

IL 429-15-01: Rogerson Kratos display unit anomaly (http://www.bellcustomer.com/files/Storage/IL_429-15-01.pdf) (27 May 2015)
Bell Helicopter has received two reports of Display Units (DU) manufactured by Rogerson Kratos that went blank following some display anomalies (horizontal colored lines) with a very limited amount of smoke and burn smell in the cockpit. Our investigation has shown that this phenomenon is the result of a capacitor failure inside the DU.
I/C

[cockney steve]

Any electronics engineer worthy of the title, should be able to find the faulty component and , provided it's a standard component, change it.

There will now be a massive tirade about how safety-critical and rigorously-enforced quality-control is in "certified" equipment.


BULL and FLANNEL ! It's unreliable crap, but assembled from quality-assured, inadequately-specified components.

If the above was UNTRUE, there would not be this horrendous failure-rate.

I see an exploitative, immoral ripoff.....If I were Dick, I'd be having a GOOD electronics man to have a dekko and replace sub-optimal components with better-specified items......this will give A MUCH MORE RELIABLE AND SAFE
bit of kit....and, if you say nowt, who's to know?- unless your enhancement cascades another engineering failure to the forefront!
I have come across IC's where the ID has been deliberately sanded off and whole boards coated in black, opaque varnish in an attempt to conceal component- values.



For the non-electronic people.....all circuits are made from about 4 basic building-blocks....Resistors, capacitors, inductors and semiconductors.....
Integrated -circuits are simply collections of the above, encapsulated in one package... Manufacturers of products can , and do, have these "chips" custom-made for them, rather than using "off the shelf" stuff.....this ties their monopoly -supply of that chip unless someone sits down and reverse-engineers the circuit to ascertain the chip's function and if there is a "work-round.

My daughter actually designed some chips for the Large Hadron Collider.

in that case, they were custom -made (probably at vast expense!) and not much use to anyone who isn't detecting Quarks, Higgs Bosons and stuff :}

Commercial applications have much bigger production-runs and the price tumbles.

Average cost of ANY low-voltage standard component, varies from about 2p to £5....work it out! a couple of hundred components...say£100 the rest for the circuit-board, case and hardware.....say £50 for a display....the rest is admin, labour and PROFIT...oh, sorry, return on intellectual property.

[whoknows idont]

the rest is admin, labour and PROFIT...

...and certification...

[500e]

Perhaps certification should be revalued with on going reliability as a criteria.
Tend to agree with costings CS

[Dick Smith]

I wonder if the staff at RK reflect the lack of ethics of the company?

It would be poetic justice if they did.

Must be a terrible place to work.

[atlas2222]

Dick, did you end up working out if the Garmin system could go in the 109? If so who did it for you?

[Dick Smith]

No. Can't get anywhere with the Garmin equipment.

I told Kratos to throw my unit in the bin but they sent it back to me at further expense to me.

My Long ranger has the Garmin units including satellite weather. It's fantastic.

And Karma will get Rogerson Kratos- it always does!

[601]

Karma
Dick - put you other hat on please.
Can I get $10,000 if I can prove Karma exists?

[Dick Smith]

James Randi will give you $1 million!

[ricksheli]

Hi Dick, just seen this unit advertised by Apple International, would it help (fit), haven't really been following this thread but have every sympathy regarding over priced avionics being forced on us operators.....

Agusta 109S EFIS UNIT
P/N 109-0900-71-1A01, Serviceable Condition, Only 21.7 Hours since new. OEM 8130-3 with EASA Dual Release
Immediately available

[noooby]

109S uses Astronautics displays. Plug and play swap with the Kratos, but you have to swap all four at once.

Nice find though!

[Ian Corrigible]

I wonder if the staff at RK reflect the lack of ethics of the company? It would be poetic justice if they did.

Karma will get Rogerson Kratos- it always does!

Not that industrial espionage is ever a laughing matter, but just for Mr. Smith:

Man guilty of stealing, distributing trade secrets of Pasadena avionics company (http://www.insidesocal.com/sgvcrime/2016/01/06/26823/)

I/C

[B407]

Keep in mind that you are buying parts and services for a 10 + year old helo (market value perhaps $1.5 million U.S.) at 2016 prices. This helo purchased new today would sell at something like $7+ million U.S., and the prices quoted for repair may not be so out of line with this in mind. One issue with electronics intensive avionics is that parts (semiconductors for example) tend to go obsolete and become unavailable much more rapidly that with electromechanical instruments. Creating a pretty picture of the panel with Garmin displays is by very far the easiest part of such an update, especially if it is intended to maintain SPIFR certification. The development cost alone, including certification, could easily be more than the value of the helo. Such an update ripples through many if not most systems. Integration (including certification) with the autopilot would seem to be a daunting challenge. And, the developer must put a hefty price on such an update to have some hope of recovering the development/certification cost and turning a reasonable profit considering that the number of such updates purchased is likely to be quite small. IMHO, there are two practical ways to deal with this situation: 1) bite the bullet and maintain what you have as needed (of course, looking for the most economical way to do this, possibly by purchasing used, certified replacements), 2) sell the 109 and move to something more affordable.

[noooby]

AW in Philly is working on an STC to replace the Kratos displays with 2 large format Astronautics units.

Anticipated cost is AROUND US$120k for the complete kit. Installation should be done within one day. If all goes well with development, STC approval is planned for 1Q 2017.

So hang in there Kratos users, help is on the way!

[B407]

AW in Philly is working on an STC to replace the Kratos displays with 2 large format Astronautics units.Anticipated cost is AROUND US$120k for the complete kit.

This may be somewhat of a solution, but still perhaps $140 - 150K installed if the pricing estimate of $120K is reliable. However, not certain if the reliability and repair costs for these displays will be better. Should be better being newly manufactured, and may have a longer warranty period that the repaired RK units. And, schedules for avionics development are notoriously optimistic; not sure Smith can wait a year or more to get his 109 flying again.

This approach is much different in a technical sense than the Garmin panel pictured in another post in that these displays can be designed from the outset to be plug compatible (and possibly mechanically compatible) with the displays they replace, where as with the Garmin setup, there is much work to be done to interface the Garmin equipment with existing systems/equipment, some of which would almost certainly require Garmin's participation for software modification and certification. Posts here indicate that Astronautics already makes displays for another version of the AW109, so should be well down the learning curve.

[noooby]

The displays are already in production. There is no design work required, apart from interfacing with the existing autopilot. Mostly it is about testing the displays with the already installed equipment (autopilot, Air Data etc).
Considering each RK screen costs around US$50k for repair, the cost of this STC is quite affordable.
The Garmin panel in the other post is not IFR capable as the G500H is VFR only, so there would be extra cost. I was developing my own STC using another manufacturer, but I was having trouble keeping hardware costs alone below US$200k!
If AW/Leonardo can do the complete package anywhere near the price they are saying, I'll be extremely happy.
I know of quite a few 109E's that are flying around with one or two screens out already, so this becomes even more cost effective.
I do have repair cost for these screens somewhere. I would need to dig it out, but I seem to recall it being less than 10k. Don't quote me on that until I dig out the info though!

[Dick Smith]

Yes. The repair costs for this latest proposed Philly mod is less than $10 k per unit.

I reckon it's fantastic. I plan to do the mod if I am still an aircraft owner by the time it is available .

I have advised everyone in Aus to get out of GA. We have ex military people running the ATC service provider and the Regulator. One way ratchet in increasing regs and costs resulting in a decimated industry and no light on the horizon .

[500e]

There is your answer to cost Dick
Kratos awarded $9.4M contract for helicopter maintenance training systems | Vertical Magazine (http://www.mhmpub1.com/newsletters/t.aspx?S=1&ID=5313&NL=58&N=5803&SI=9094&URL=http%3a%2f%2fverticalmag.com%2fnews%2farticle%2fKratos-awarded-94M-contract-for-helicopter-maintenance-training-systems)

[Dick Smith]

Don't quite understand why it would be an explanation for the rip off , totally unethical repair costs .

I can't wait for the new units to become available. I will be a customer. Hope they will integrate with the latest Garmin WAAS GPS units and provide vertical guidance to the minimum on GPS approaches.

[noooby]

So for those of you who have been following this drama, you'll be pleased to know that the solution is certified.
STC SR04390CH allows the installation of two Astronautics Roadrunner EFIS screens in all models of 109/119.
Retail cost for the two screens plus adapter kits (basically a wiring harness to convert the aircraft harness to the EFIS) is US$95k all in.
Installation is on top of that but it is plug and play. No drilling or anything required. Maintains full IFR certification and is NVIS complatible out of the box. Can be configured with HTAWS and TCAS too.
Each of the four Kratos screens retail at US$96k. So for the replacement cost of one screen, you get the complete kit.

[Autonomous Collectiv]

So for those of you who have been following this drama, you'll be pleased to know that the solution is certified.
STC SR04390CH allows the installation of two Astronautics Roadrunner EFIS screens in all models of 109/119.
Retail cost for the two screens plus adapter kits (basically a wiring harness to convert the aircraft harness to the EFIS) is US$95k all in.
Installation is on top of that but it is plug and play. No drilling or anything required. Maintains full IFR certification and is NVIS complatible out of the box. Can be configured with HTAWS and TCAS too.
Each of the four Kratos screens retail at US$96k. So for the replacement cost of one screen, you get the complete kit.


That is great news indeed, I'd expect Dick Smith to be the first Australian customer. We have RK screens in two of our aircraft, they look good but are woefully unreliable.

[roscoe1]

The worst customer support experience I had in almost 40 years in helicoprter maintenance was with Rogerson Kratos. It was everything stated above and more. At one point when I finally got someone who would talk to me, almost impossible most of the time, they actually told me they couldn't find the unit or their work order. I was calling about a close to $30K repair estimate they had sent me. I had to get the shipping data and read to them who had received it and when it was plunked down on their doorstep. I cringe as a taxpayer every time I see their name mentioned in a government contract. Have a great day RK.

[noooby]

The worst customer support experience I had in almost 40 years in helicoprter maintenance was with Rogerson Kratos. It was everything stated above and more. At one point when I finally got someone who would talk to me, almost impossible most of the time, they actually told me they couldn't find the unit or their work order. I was calling about a close to $30K repair estimate they had sent me. I had to get the shipping data and read to them who had received it and when it was plunked down on their doorstep. I cringe as a taxpayer every time I see their name mentioned in a government contract. Have a great day RK.


I'd like to be able to say that yours is a one off experience but it isn't. I've seen and heard countless horror stories. From 35k repairs for a simple diode that failed, to no warranty for repairs to repairs failing within a few weeks. It is just unbelievable.

Astronautics have worked hard to get this right. I hope people adopt it and it works out for them.

This system can replace the steam gauges, EFIS50, Rogerson Kratos EFIS and the 4 screen Astronautics EFIS.

[roscoe1]

The whole thing is so strange. For years I have wondered how a company puts so little into customer service when it is the one aspect of a business that can promote initial AND return business, yet costs so little to do well. In fact it seems that they put some effort into being bad at some things.

[garsr1]

We have ordered the Roadrunners for our A109S but it's a busy time of the year so probably won't get installed for a couple months. I will give some feedback on their operation, I'm sure we're all curious. We removed the King MFD, the Garmin 430 530 and replaced them with all Avadyne. It is working great and full color with terrain, traffic and radar. Also the transponder is 2020 compliant.

[Sumpor Stylee]

I'd like to be able to say that yours is a one off experience but it isn't. I've seen and heard countless horror stories. From 35k repairs for a simple diode that failed, to no warranty for repairs to repairs failing within a few weeks. It is just unbelievable.

Astronautics have worked hard to get this right. I hope people adopt it and it works out for them.

This system can replace the steam gauges, EFIS50, Rogerson Kratos EFIS and the 4 screen Astronautics EFIS.


But can you display wx Radar on the astronautics screen? Also is it compatible with Garmin 650? And if there’s a problem with comms to avionics who covers what as Leonardo will probably blame all subsequent issues on the screens as a result.

[noooby]

But can you display wx Radar on the astronautics screen? Also is it compatible with Garmin 650? And if there’s a problem with comms to avionics who covers what as Leonardo will probably blame all subsequent issues on the screens as a result.


Yes it can display weather. It does have that ability. And TCAS and HTAWS.

You aren't familiar with STC's by the sound of it. The STC holder is responsible for any issues surrounding the installation. NOT Leonardo. That is normal. Astronautics is an OEM supplier to Leonardo anyway. So Leonardo know them well.

I do find your statement about Leonardo not helping with add on avionics to be confusing though, as you ask if it is compatible with the GTN650, which itself is not supported by Leonardo on the 109E/S. So if you have a GTN650 installed you must already have an STC or mod done to your aircraft that Leonardo won't help you with.

To be clear, there are NO WIRING MODS to do with this installation. Whatever the old Kratos or Astronautics screens were wired into, is what the new Astronautics screens will be wired into. It uses the exact same wiring harness for the basic installation. All you do is add in a harness adapter to convert the connectors.

If you want to add functionalities that the old Kratos or Astronautics screens did not support, then you would work with the STC holder to do that.

As with any other STC.

[RickNRoll]

I wonder if the staff at RK reflect the lack of ethics of the company?

It would be poetic justice if they did.

Must be a terrible place to work.

Don't mean to be a party pooper Dick, but you were known to charge pretty extreme prices for electronic components yourself some years back. What the market will bear.

[krypton_john]

Don't mean to be a party pooper Dick, but you were known to charge pretty extreme prices for electronic components yourself some years back. What the market will bear.

That is not my recollection, and if you didn't like Dick's prices you could buy substitute items elsewhere. Not so if you are stuck with RK EFIS.

[JustinHeywood]

Don't mean to be a party pooper Dick, but you were known to charge pretty extreme prices for electronic components yourself some years back. What the market will bear.

Not in my experience. Dick Smith stores were somewhere between ‘cheap and cheerful’ and mid-range.

[Ascend Charlie]

How many years back??

Woolworths bought Dick out a looooong time ago.

[garsr1]

https://astronautics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Astronautics-RoadRunner-EFI-Specification-Sheet-REV-8.pdf

Finally have the new displays installed in to our A109S. Displays are very clear, but it wasn't all just plug and play it took about 10 days for the avionics tech to instal and program. Astronautics is saying that they are working on a software update for synthetic vision hopefully around the first of the year.

[Dick Smith]

Garsr1, thanks for the update. Would you be able to give a bit more information? Why did it take so long just to put in a number of adapter plugs? 40 hours seems an incredible time. Is there anything you learnt that you could pass on to me if I go ahead?

What did you do with the Rogerson Kratos units that you pulled out? Are they for sale?

Garsr1, I would love to speak to you about this. I have sent you a private message about getting your contact details – or are you happy to give them on the site?

[garsr1]

https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ifd550
https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ex600-cmax

The standard Garmin 530 and 430 along with the King MFD has also been replaced I have also attached the models that are currently in the S model. There was a little modification of the panel but not a big issue to do.

I have replied to PM's so if anyone else has question feel free to PM me and I'll answer what questions I can or I will direct you to the shop that did the install.

[garsr1]

Here is some more good news regarding GPS approaches with the Roadrunners.



1. SUBJECT
Astronautics Corporation of America
SERVICE LETTER
RNAV (GPS) operations using the Astronautics Electronic Flight Instrument (EFI) “RoadRunner”, Model AFI4700.
2. BACKGROUND
This Service Letter is issued to all operators and maintainers of the RoadRunner EFI on the requirements to obtain operational approval to perform U.S. Area Navigation (RNAV) operations using Global Positioning System (GPS) equipment for Lateral Navigation (LNAV) and Vertical Navigation (VNAV) in En Route, Oceanic, Terminal, Localizer Performance with Vertical Guidance (LPV), and Localizer Performance without Vertical Guidance (LP) procedures.
Astronautics has received inquiries on the ability to perform RNAV (GPS) operations when replacing an aircrafts’ exiting Attitude Direction Indicator (ADI) and Horizontal Situation Indicator (HSI) with the RoadRunner EFI. This Service Letter will provide the recommended procedures to obtain operational approval with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). For operators and maintainers operating in Europe or other nations, consult your local Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) for guidance.
3. REFERENCE DOCUMENTS
The FAA Advisory Circulars (AC) listed below are not the only means of obtaining operational approval of aircraft containing GPS receivers with Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) performance.
FAA AC 90-105
FAA AC 90-107 PLG12863
“Approval Guidance for RNP Operations and Barometric Vertical Navigation in the U.S. National Airspace System and in Oceanic and Remote Continental Airspace”
“Guidance for localizer performance with Vertical Guidance and Localizer” Roadrunner Pilot’s Guide
4. PART NUMBER AND APPLICABILITY
277060-[ ] all revisions.
5. ACTION REQUIRED
The RoadRunner EFI is intended to be the indicator for a complete GPS/WAAS system. The RoadRunner can display RNAV (GPS) navigation deviations and annunciations required for LNAV, LNAV/VNAV, LPV, and LP procedures for Oceanic, En Route, Terminal, and Approach phases of flight within the Pilots’ primary field of view. The RoadRunner relies on a properly installed and approved FAA Technical Standard Order (TSO) -C146(b or higher), Class 3 or Class 4 GPS/WAAS receiver with an FMS to provide the data required to be displayed.
Original Issue: SL No. 276800-34-002 Page 1 of 2

Astronautics Corporation of America
SERVICE LETTER
Operators must contact their local FAA Flight Standards District Officer (FSDO) to obtain the operational approval of the system. The FSDO may refer the operator to an authorized designee as required.
The following information is required to obtain approval:
• Verification that the TSO-C146 GPS/WAAS system has been installed and tested in accordance with the equipment manufacturers manuals.
• Verification that the Aircraft Flight Manual Supplement (AFMS) or Rotorcraft Flight Manual Supplement (RFMS) for the GPS/WAAS system includes information on all IFR and WAAS procedures with any limitations.
• Verification of a Minimum Equipment List (MEL) to address WAAS flight operations.
• Verification that the operator has a training program for the use of the GPS/WAAS system,
that the training program is documented, and that there is refresher training conducted.
Installation of the RoadRunner EFI in accordance with an approved FAA or EASA Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) will include a ground functional test plan, flight functional test plan, and an FAA/EASA approved AFMS/RFMS to assist in meeting the installation and documentation requirements for operational approval. The operator must include the GPS/WAAS STC or installation approval documents to complete the requirements.
The operator must develop an MEL specific for their aircraft to identify the minimum required functional equipment to dispatch and continue flight operations. An MEL is not part of a RoadRunner STC and must reflect the equipment installed in the aircraft.
The operator must develop a training program for the use of the entire GPS/WAAS system to include operation of the GPS/WAAS receiver, FMS, and RoadRunner EFI.
An OpSpec, MSpec, or LOA will be issued to the operator once all of the requirements have been met. Operators wishing to use the RoadRunner EFI with an approved TSO-C146 GPS/WAAS FMS should review FAA AC 90-107 (latest revision) to obtain additional details not covered in the Service Letter.
Original Issue: SL No. 276800-34-002 Page 2 of 2