Pedals - Feet placement

[nuggets]

I'm a relatively new grade III instructor, about 2 months or so now, flying r22's and 44’s.

I've always flown with my feet on the floor and pretty much used the top part of my foot and my toes to control the pedals, it gives me nice control.
I've been instructing some new students and my CFI has been telling them to put their feet firmly on the pedals - not touching the floor. Now I find all their pedal movements almost aggressive and slow to react and I’m not sure which is best.

What is the general practice? What do you guys do?
And any instructors, what do you teach your students? Any tips on pedal usage for new students as most seem to struggle with them.

Thanks for any input :ok:

[John Eacott]

I agree with your technique; the concept of feet on the pedals and completely 'off the floor' puts the pivot point back at the knee with little possibility of the finesse needed for good control from the ankle movement that you use.

As a comparison, the best cyclic control comes from resting your forearm on your knee and using wrist and finger movements to control the cyclic. Try lifting your arm such that basic control is transferred back to the elbow. Difficult and clumsy, especially for a student.

[Fareastdriver]

I agree with John.

The only time you have your feet off the floor is when you are flying a fighter aircraft that has buckets on the bottom of the pedals to keep your feet on during high G manoevres; and they don't use the pedals much.

Obviously you have to let your feet slide when there is a lot of movement on a large helicopter but otherwise it's just like a car, heels resting on the floor.

[cattletruck]

This monkey with his AU size 10.5 feet preferred to have his heels on the floor and move the pedals with just his ankles. A bonus was being able to hold both pedals flat on startup just by rolling across one foot.

r22 and r44 is a bit cramped in the footwell for my size 10.5's, maybe this unusual technique alleviates it, but it could also add a bit of unnecessary wear and tear to the mechanism.

[Phoinix]

I teach my students to keep the feet on the floor and use only the top part of the foot, just like you.
The benefits are obvious. First couple of hours any student is nervous and keeping the feet on the floor prevents them from pushing very hard on the pedals. If they do, the fingers will start to hurt and they will release the pressure on the pedals.
Another thing is, when they are pushing hard on the pedals all the precision control is gone and you get slow but aggressive inputs.

So, feet on the floor it is.

[Hughes500]

You can always tell a fixed wing pilot they have their toes above the pedals expecting there to be brakes ! They never have the finesse to control the pedals. Always always heels on the floor, toes on top of the pedal with the ball at the bottom. Remember evolution has given us toes as they produce the balance when we walk. Anyone who has had toes amputated ( friends with frostbite when we used to go climbing )initially has loads of problems walking!
The other way of thinking about it is if your student skis. With carving skis you just need to pressure your toes and the ski will turn !

[nuggets]

Thanks guys, appreciate the comments!
Agree with all of you, overwhelmingly in favour of grounded feet it seems :)

[Cylinder Head]

My experience is that you will never get the fine inputs you need in an R22 /R44 if your heels are not stable & still on the floor and the pedals slide up and down the soles of your shoes behind the toes and balls of the feet.


Have you asked your CFI why he prefers this method - maybe he was bought up on a different type. Can't imagine it produces decent control though. I once flew in an R22 with an ex Enstrom owner and as a helicopter pilot he made a great deep sea diver!

[500e]

Feet are a problem when learning anyhow, so why make it more difficult by having no where to rest heel? they were the last thing on my mind when training ask the instructor :sad:

[Helilog56]

In my experience instructing I have found the student(s) should be as relaxed and comfortable as possible....if they seem tense it shows in their handling of the aircraft ......starting them with their feet on the floor is a good point.

[Thomas coupling]

Nuggets, I can't comment on the nuances of teaching in an R22. And I will refrain from using this opportunity to cheapen the thread :mad: BUT be very careful about imparting black and white knowledge to students.
'Covering' the pedals is very much a subjective issue ranging from a gentle feel for feedback which acts as another sensory detector for the pilot - to an absloute necessity on more complex aircraft when discussing tail rotor problems - all the way over to feet planted firmly on the floor which has been suggested on this thread. Try and get a feel for what is best for you/your students predicament at the time (hovering. turning. cruise. mals). Don't come down hard on one or the other choice. Remember, the best pilots sense/feel their craft and get used to it talking to them. You can't always do that with a third of the controls not being monitored.

[John Eacott]

I'm a relatively new grade III instructor, about 2 months or so now, flying r22's and 44’s.

This may be an issue if you take the recommendations from here to your CFI; tread carefully!

Two other points to note is the issue of standardisation in a flying school so that the studes are getting basically the same training from all instructors. Most large helicopter companies (Bristow, etc) and the military have Standards Flights which check that a common standard is used across a fleet.

Another issue with having feet only on the pedals is the exacerbation of the pressure problem where instead of a light 3-5lb pressure on one pedal to fly, the pilot puts 40lb on one pedal and 43lb on the other. Sort of like the white knuckle death grip on the cyclic, and certainly not conducive to gentle flying. With feet firmly on the pedals it creates a natural extra pressure (the weight of the whole leg) instead of a few ounces with the toes resting on the pedals.

[[email protected]]

Concur John - I once tried to take control of a Lynx from a student who was making a balls of a steep turn (not enough back pressure and horribly out of balance) - he was pressing so hard on the pedals with both feet (heels off the floor) because he was so tense, I couldn't move them and had to resort to shouting at him (yes, poor instructional technique but so is crashing).

[handysnaks]

So let me get this straight. You're saying the footrests actually move!:eek:

[Nigel Osborn]

For a helicopter with wheel brakes such as the S 76, if you put your size 10 or bigger boots on the pedal, the chances are they are also on the brakes. I have seen tyres flat spotted by pilots using this technique, so we always insisted heels on the floor.

[stilton]

Never flown a Helicopter (as much as I would like to) but I've been a professional fixed wing Pilot for 35 years and with rare exceptions I can tell you that nearly all of us keep our heels on the floor when operating the rudder pedals.


Of course you slide your feet up to operate the brakes when needed (and may keep them there for a long taxi) but otherwise you keep your toes away from the brakes. As stated already lifting your whole foot up on to the pedals to operate the rudders / tail rotor / nosewheel steering makes you very clumsy, losing most of your dexterity in the process.


There is a small group of FW pilots that believe in having your feet all the way up on the pedals at all times and attempt to operate the rudders / nosewheel steering with their heels.


You can always tell this behaviour as they immediately lurch all over the place, they are wrong in their 'technique' it is not recommended by any manufacturer or authority I'm aware of and I always tell them to stop it immediately :ok:

[fly911]

I've been instructing some new students and my CFI has been telling them to put their feet firmly on the pedals

I'm guessing that there has been a misunderstanding along the way. "Firmly on the pedals" doesn't necessarily mean "off the floor". At your experience level, I understand your apprehension about confronting your instructor, but they are your students and you have every right to inform them that it is ok to operate the pedals in a manner that feels most comfortable to them. Good luck.

[John Eacott]

I'm guessing that there has been a misunderstanding along the way. "Firmly on the pedals" doesn't necessarily mean "off the floor".

If you had quoted all of nuggets sentence, that is exactly what he did say:


I've been instructing some new students and my CFI has been telling them to put their feet firmly on the pedals - not touching the floor.

[nuggets]

There was no misunderstanding, definitely off the floor.

I am not being black and white with the students, I've explained this is what I do and what most people tend to do (with regards to feet placement); and that it works for me. I'm not bashing my CFI at all. I just want to give the students the best possible education. One way to do that is to broaden my education and speak to other people in the field.

I remember in my training I was taught by about 7 different instructors over the whole period, and each had their own nuances they liked. So I found I had to adjust some things to keep whoever I was flying with happy. It's good to get different instructors views on topics, so I enjoyed that and learnt a lot, but as you mentioned John, standardizing the training is important.

At the end of the day, you ask 3 instructor's a questions, it seems you'll get 3 different answers ;)

[Cylinder Head]

Nuggets


That's very true but don't be afraid to ask WHY each one has that particular opinion. Sometimes there's a very good reason, sometimes there isn't - its just the way they were taught. What seems like a weird idea may have good reasoning behind it - or it may not.


Standardization is important for students but the chosen standard needs to be a sensible one. In this case, it would seem your CFI is being a bit non standard - don't be afraid to ask him why he thinks that technique is better.


Questioning a superior can be daunting but come at it from the point of a CRM issue - you need to understand why, so you need to ask the question. He should listen to your question and respond with appropriate justification for his opinion. More likely than not, it will at least make him stop and think about his position. He might even change his mind! CH

[Helilog56]

I have been flying since the 70's and have held an instructors rating since the 80's (we don't use it for time building in Canada). I honestly have never seen this technique or even heard of it!!! How many here have ever seen any pilots actually do this? On some aircraft t/r thrust is so effective, abrupt pedal inputs can damage the airframe.
I have been flying cranes for 9 years, the pedals are extremely heavy and take much effort to move as there are built in restrictors...other than brake usage, feet are resting on the floor.

I would like too hear nuggets, what is your CFI's reason for this technique???

[rantanplane]

heels on the floor?

perhaps it depends a bit on the shoes - and size as already mentioned:
good feeling and free movement with sandals :8
mountain boots in size 11 give some range of movement with the heel as pivot point on the floor , but not really in size 7: minimum effective movement will come from the legs via knees..

ok ladies, lets try to fly with high heels then :roll eyes:

btw: aerobatic fixed wing and gliders do need some very accurate pedal control and I prefer to keep my feet off the floor whilst having a bit of fun and full pedal movement is or might be required.

my shoe size is 10.5, what ever that means ;)