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View Full Version : Dust off those ASR and Fatigue Forms Boys


a747jb
23rd Feb 2015, 13:03
Well, Just when you thought they couldn't be that stupid, here they go again. Starting on the 13th of March, the IAH layover is going to 25 hours. I guess the last time they tried that and got destroyed by ASR's has long since been forgotten. As if the Chicago ASR's for too short a layover weren't good enough. I for one will have my pen ready if they give me one of these trips.

White Knight
23rd Feb 2015, 14:03
Mmmm. Let me guess. Incredibly short of pilots. Especially 380 skippers!

Emma Royds
23rd Feb 2015, 14:07
Perhaps it's time to get in touch directly with the Houston FAA FSDO office and see what they have to say about the issue?

FAA Houston Flight Standards District Office (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/hou/contact/)

White Knight
23rd Feb 2015, 14:11
Sadly Emma Royds, as you know, if it's legal then the Feds want care...

Emma Royds
23rd Feb 2015, 14:34
It maybe legal but is it safe?

As we saw with the recent white out conditions in JFK, a layover was legally reduced to 12 hours in the hotel. Exceptional weather conditions I will admit but this highlighted that the ULR regulations are not even worth the paper they are written on.

With IAH, the company is turning its back on a paper trail that colleagues have generated highlighting that 24 hours is insufficient and it is clear that the paper trail that was created, did not carry enough weight to prevent this change. More ASRs and FRMS forms will in my view, be futile. Will DFW be next?

fatbus
23rd Feb 2015, 14:44
GCAA/FAA consider it safe if it's legal. Illegal means unsafe, anyone that has worked for the FEDs will know how it works. But don't let that stop you writing the ASRs .

SOPS
23rd Feb 2015, 14:56
And I get asked...please tell us why you have resigned
:ugh::{:ugh::ugh:

TangoUniform
23rd Feb 2015, 15:24
The April schedule is in jeopardy. Lack of pilots. Can't announce any new routes. Lack of pilots. Calls being made with "deals". Lack of pilots.

White Knight
23rd Feb 2015, 15:39
Did I say it was safe at Emma? No....... I just explained the reason...

montencee
23rd Feb 2015, 16:06
Calls being made with "deals".

Who is calling who and what are the deals?



Some March IAH layovers are 24 hours and others are 48 hours, it appears to be random. Some creative accounting in an attempt to keep the wheels on? Well over 100 hours on my schedule anyway.

Old King Coal
23rd Feb 2015, 16:09
Q) Want to improve things?

A) Do NOT pick up the phone / do NOT facilitate Management's fcuk-up(s)!

MR8
23rd Feb 2015, 16:18
I didn't look into it, so I have no idea why they are going to try the 24hr thing again, but for sure it isn't because we lack pilots. On the A380 we are not limited by minimum days off, but by flying hours. Reducing the layover by a day will give them an extra day in DXB, but the hours won't be affected, so it is useless.
I think it's just reducing layover cost (hotel and allowances). Beancounter stuff...

glofish
23rd Feb 2015, 17:29
Just call in sick fatigued IN HOUSTON! That would be a start.

Complaining does not help, fatigue reports after the flights just makes them chuckle. So go fatigued where you actually are fatigued -> in Houston!!.
The OMA tells you to consider "anticipated" safety hampering fatigue, so just do it.

Start acting like playing with Pro V1X and don't continue working with your lame range balls .........

(the T7 guys managed to get back 48 hours, so you super-giga-duper-guys should manage the same easily, don't you?)

nolimitholdem
23rd Feb 2015, 17:43
Just remember to stay anonymous if you report to the FAA. Wouldn't want to get fired the way the cabin crew did for reporting the JFK illegally short layover during the snowstorm.

:yuk:

Mr Angry from Purley
23rd Feb 2015, 18:15
Does EK recommend sleeping patterns for the flight particularly for the Flight Deck? e.g. on-board and at HOU.

On paper it looks horrendous, even with bunks.

How many days off after the trip?

:\

TangoUniform
23rd Feb 2015, 18:16
It will do no good to call the FAA or the local FSDO. Is EK in compliance with the set forth FTDTLs of the GCAA? Yes. The FAA audits the GCAA from time to time and they have found them in compliance to whatever standard has been set by the FAA. Secondly the U.S. carriers flying into DXB only have 24 hour layovers after 15 hours of flight time. Yes, they are not flying 92 hours but that has nothing to do with a rotation and it's rest before and after a ULR.

The carriers outside of the U.S. do not have to adhere to U.S rules and regs with regard to things like this. Remember "foreign" carriers were flying into the U.S. with over 60 year old pilots at the helm before the FAA changed the mandatory retirement age limit.

And lastly, it may not change the max monthly rate, BUT, it allows more work days like PPCs, CRM, SEP and squeezing in a ULR during a leave month. It allows more flexibility in rostering you. Looking at it in another way 60 captains and 60 copilots required for a 30 day month. That's 120 work days now available per month in the overall manning. And we all know, there are plenty of work days with zero credit.

gardenshed
23rd Feb 2015, 18:27
Come on guys, lets give the bean counters and management credit where its due.
They have been striving to reduce costs and this one would be another winner.
Not only will it encourage more people to consider there options here, but will also further discourage anyone ( unless absolutely desperate from joining) its a win win for them costs come write down.
Only downside them big things with wings will be a bit more difficult to fly, however while sitting on the ground due lack of staff all round they won't be burning fuel therefore saving even more money.

WhatsaLizad?
23rd Feb 2015, 19:03
Get together and produce a well written and researched letter with factual analysis regarding the trip construction and fatigue issues and send it to the editors of Houston news media as well as other large Texas news and TV media.


While you're at it, send a copy to the legal departments of the major Texas oil producer and services companies. Once that's done, they now share liability for their employees with EK. US lawsuit territory. Once they know about dodgy practices, they have to consider the transportation they use to ship their employees.


Want to start a sheet storm? Do it right.


Just an outside observer opinion.

fliion
23rd Feb 2015, 21:22
The worst part; my pet peeve.

No attempt at collaboration from fleet to engage the pilot group. Just sneak it in there after six years of 48 hrs.

Any chance of an email a la "Look guys we're in danger of parking planes, it's a crisis, we need your help for a while and here is what we are prepared to give back"

And because of no engagement it becomes a self perpetuating Greek tragedy...no engagement, no loyalty ...more attrition.

It's like a watching a train wreck that can be prevented while the guy up the front will continue to go past the red signal while we scratch our heads ... Why oh why?

f.

BigGeordie
23rd Feb 2015, 21:55
Mr Angry, EK does recommend sleep/rest patterns for all ULR pairings, although they are apparently produced by people who have only ever done one from the comfort of a first class suite and therefore didn't find it the least bit tiring.

These 15 hour plus ULR pairing are horrible but what makes them worse is the other stuff they fill a roster up with as well.

The required rest after one of these epics is 2 days, and often that is all we get.

four engine jock
24th Feb 2015, 05:39
My Word.... 24 hours is more then enough. Its more then Safe.

fatbus
24th Feb 2015, 07:40
I think you wil find that the ones complaining the most are commuters. It means the chances of a quick home visit was possible on a 48 layover. It also is looking like more restrictions to rosters , smaller blocks of days off. AAR does not like commuters, it would seem it's becoming more and more difficult to do.

falconeasydriver
24th Feb 2015, 07:59
Mr Angry, EK does recommend sleep/rest patterns for all ULR pairings, although they are apparently produced by people who have only ever done one from the comfort of a first class suite and therefore didn't find it the least bit tiring.

They also probably never envisaged rest having to be taken in a glorified Dog Kennel surrounded by screaming infants and 8 year olds thumping on the walls.
Fatty, the 380 fellas I know are horrified at the prospect of a 24hr layover in IAH and none of those are commuters. Fortunately on the tractor there were/are enough septics who want their fill of homeless people to take any US trips that turn up on my roster.

donpizmeov
24th Feb 2015, 15:40
A bit misguided there Mutts.

767200
24th Feb 2015, 15:49
Apparently it was a computer glitch...49:05 layover back to normal

Alconguin Crusader
24th Feb 2015, 16:58
Tango Unifrom
You said Delta only gets 24 hours in DXB. That is not true. The stews get 24 hours but the pilots get 48 hours. Also before George Bush unilaterally raised the pilot retirement age to 65 in Dec of 07 no pilot from any airline could fly in US airspace if he was over age 60. As for today no pilot over age 65 can fly in US airspace so the Aussie pilots when they hit age 65 have to fly domestic.
Also US airlines adhere to FAA Regs all the time no matter where they fly to.
24 hour layover has to be a typo but will watch this space.

TangoUniform
24th Feb 2015, 20:15
AC, you are 100% incorrect. The DXB layover is 24 hours for the Delta pilots. Wrong again about age 60. Foreign pilots WERE flying into the US before the U.S. age limit was raised. BTW, the Delta layover used to be 72, then 54, then 48, and now 24. The pilots complained that they didn't want to spend that much down time away from home. It's been 24 for at least three years or so. As you said, US pilots have to fly under FAA regs no matter where they fly. Well sadly, same for us having to fly under GCAA regs wherever we fly.

BigGeordie
24th Feb 2015, 20:17
If it is a computer error/typo (and I really hope it is) the sad part is that our first thought is not "must be a mistake" but "here we go again".

Our expectations of the company really have sunk to an all time low.:(

Schnowzer
25th Feb 2015, 01:44
Legalities aside all I know is that a 36 to 48 hour lay-over after ULR beats the crap out of 24.

OnceBitten
25th Feb 2015, 04:18
Personally I don't think the layover being 24 hours is the issue. The issue is after doing 14+ hours, 24 hours off, then 14+ hours return, you then regularly ONLY get 48 hours off followed my a night return duty which I can guarantee wouldn't happen to any other unionised Airline crew on this planet.

And that to me is the tiring part, the lack of rest after the pairing.

Trader
25th Feb 2015, 06:57
Once Bitten - I agree. I could do 24 hour layovers but not with 90 plus hours a month. It is the RECOVERY time that is the issue and at EK we don't get it. We fly a ULR, flip to a night flight, then a morning departure etc etc.

80 hours or less per month (as most carriers fly) and you can do a 24 hour layover.

Kapitanleutnant
25th Feb 2015, 12:44
OnceBitten & Trader

Exactly correct! It's just the time between trips in general that really kills the attitude (and body fatigue).

I know one US carrier whose bid sheet I saw from a colleague leaving EK having a 3 day trip from a large US city over to a large Chinese City, with a 24 hour layover and then back to the US…. followed by 8-9 days off.

Those boys did three of those trips and the rest as off days. Still got about 80-some hours those months (or maybe had to throw in a turn for productivity :-)

So…. its 9 days on, 21 days off. Hmmm….

Kap

Mr Angry from Purley
25th Feb 2015, 17:26
One has to suspect that with rosters being delivered up against the publication limit, crews on max hours, the computer glitch of a 24hr layover, it's all beginning to stack up to suggest that quality checks and quality control is being tested to the limit. Gut feeling - Crew numbers creaking?:\:\