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leedsample
23rd Feb 2015, 12:40
Hi im sorry if there have been previous posts. i have checked out the search bar for general chit chat on the issue.

Firstly i understand this may generate the "why would you want to do that to yourself response" but please that's not helpful and i understand, especially the old and bold, that its not your thing.

Upon looking at the eligibility criteria for the BA FPP i ticked all the categories bar one. I have visible tattoos on my arms, a sleeve on one arm and a a potential sleeve on the other cutting off at the wrists. I must state they are unoffensive in any way shape or form.

The BA FPP site even went on to explain that a "tattoo check" will be carried out at a later date. I am not posting to complain as they can pretty much recruit and employ who they wish being who they are and i have decided not to apply as i would just be wasting my, and their time. As i understand they wish to maintain a super clean corporate image, and im not that upset as i know id have better chances of guessing the lottery numbers than being one of the lucky few who were selected.

Its 2015, tattoos are no longer a taboo and seem to be a norm these days especially with people of my generation (i am 25) and especially in my previous career. 8 years as an infantry section commander.

i am now worried as i have the money and the motivation to pursue a career in aviation and i am in the process of deciding whether to go integrated or modular (another debate no doubt) and i was under the impression that id just wear a long sleeve shirt/pullover +- jacket whilst flying then all would be well.

Finally the point of the post, has anyone ever heard of this problem hindering either themselves or others in their aviation careers? And to be realistic laser removal is not an option before you potentially suggest!

many thanks

QR1
23rd Feb 2015, 13:08
I think it's more for the passengers, you would have to agree that there are many who would frown at their pilot having tattoos and so the airlines don't want pilots with them on show.

Stocious
23rd Feb 2015, 13:50
Visible is the key word.

There are many pilots that have a variety of tattoos, some even on their arms would you believe! I believe you could still apply and be successful, provided you'd be happy to wear long sleeves all the time and that they were not visible when wearing long sleeves.

It's perhaps worth a call to BA recruitment to find the exact detail.

Sygyzy
23rd Feb 2015, 13:52
It's difficult to reply to this without saying 'I told you so', or 'what were you thinking longterm'.

Passengers look upon their pilots as skygods. They know nothing about aviation and rely on the guys up front to get them safely from A-B. They have an idea of what their pilots will look like, just as I have a conception of what my (good) doctor, dentist, lawyer and accountant will look like before I meet them. This preconception will be different from what I expect a courageous young officer will look like leading a platoon in a war torn part of the globe.

The people interviewing new airline recruits will be older than you with those preconceived conservative values entrenched. I speak of western Europe only but I can imagine the mid and far east to be similar. The HR people drink conservatism on a daily basis and I'm afraid that isn't gonna change for a quite a while.

If you really can't get rid of all your tattoos then I believe you should consider carefully your career in aviation. You'll be spending a lot of money to become qualified and then you'll buy a lottery ticket trying to get a job. It's so competitive nowadays that any impediment - seemingly as trivial as taking two attempts at some exams, having a minor restriction (OML 'as or with a co-pilot') on your Class 1 medical or a just visible tattoo - will put you in the DCM pile. (Dont Come Monday).

Wearing a long sleeved shirt I don't believe will cut it either. What happens when you go to the pool for your first dinghy drill? Everyone in speedos and you in a boiler suit! Even though you have an unrestricted Class 1 medical and have the job offer, what will the company doc say when you attend your initial company medical that every new employee has to attend. (This may not be the case with every employer but your blood pressure will ramp up when you've almost got through the door to find that this employer requires a medical checkup).

Life is seldom fair and I know this is a form of discrimination. With your drive and determination you'll probably make a good pilot, but it will be difficult to live with the glass ceiling that your colleagues pass through while you're limited in the opportunities that you can apply for with your 'impediment'.

There will be other takes on this conundrum, probably telling you to ignore the old fart. Problem is it's the old farts than run the companies and make policy:sad:

I wish you luck.

highflyer40
23rd Feb 2015, 14:53
And I would also add that it is far from the "norm" in any generation.. There are far fewer than 50% in any generation that have tattoos so still a minority

Stocious
23rd Feb 2015, 15:03
Which is why he'd have to proactively ask "I have tattoos, but I'm willing to cover them up at work so they are not visible to our punters, will that be an issue?"

Dinghy duty in training or medical renewals aren't exactly customer facing!

TizerTheAppetizer
23rd Feb 2015, 15:28
Personally I don't mind tattoos, they remind of Pacific Island cultures etc. etc.

But I think you can write BA off, I know someone who wanted to become cabin crew, had the tattoos lasered off her arms, leaving some minor scarring, but they still didn't like it. No job!

You might have better luck with other airlines, but I'm afraid I think most of them won't like the tattoos either. Is laser not an option?

As already stated above, passengers like their pilots be well groomed.

Sygyzy
23rd Feb 2015, 15:29
That's the nub of the problem.

BA's FFP says no tattoos.....End of. I suspect that other companies have the same/similar policies, so there's little point in fronting up and asking the Q when it's in black and white on the application form/page.

Running the gauntlet will be/could be fraught as if you do get found out this boils down to deceit/fraud and you'll be through the door very quickly.

All IMHO:E

In a nutshell, you're limiting your opportunities in an already tight market - and it'll be galling to see your peers, possibly without your skills but definitely without your tattoos - getting jobs that you're well qualified for.

juniour jetset
23rd Feb 2015, 22:31
When I went to CTC for Virgin selection and met a few Virgin first officers and the training standars manager, they told us about one of the captians that was covered all over withs tats.

They said he was a bit of legend in the company and was a real charcter. Liked a beer too!

stn
23rd Feb 2015, 23:01
As I see it the companies are well within their rights to choose employees who reflect their corporate image. In aviation, the image - as previously stated - is usually quite conservative.

Personally, I have however no problems with tattoos at all, as long as they're not visible under work wear. Piercings and visible body modifications on the other hand kinda feel unprofessional (and even sorry to say a bit childish).

I've been in one company medical and I had to strip down to my undies, so had I had a tattoo it would probably been noticed there.

Icanseeclearly
24th Feb 2015, 14:55
Leed

I left the military some years ago (fleet air arm) and understand the unique stresses that joining civvy street brings.

With regards the tattoos, I am waiting to join BA and worked for 2 other airlines before hand (both turboprop) and was in recruitment at one. We would not employ someone with visible tattoos (both flight deck and Cabincrew) rightly or wrongly it is about customer perception, (we had one pilot who had a large tattoo on his back that was visible through his shirt, he was expected to wear a white vest in all weathers so it could not be seen) BA also have a no visible tattoo rule for all flight crew I'm afraid.

My advice would be get in contact with the HR departments of as many airlines as possible and ask the question before you start investing, it's horrendously expensive (although some ELCs can be used) without limiting yourself in potential employers.

Have you thought about rotary? I would hazard a guess their rules are less stringent (on the North Sea at any rate) maybe worth thinking about.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but trying to give you some impartial advice before you spend the cash.

leedsample
24th Feb 2015, 19:10
well i passed my class 1 medical today and im eager to start as i know aviation is where i would like to build a career. I understand the comments and i do have a slight regret of my slightly younger actions but nothing can change the past however i though id just be able to wear a long sleeve shirt as this sorts out all the problems. As i must say i look sharp in a suit :ok:

seriously though i understand im taking a risk by going down this route and not being a cardboard cut-out but im just going to hope my personality and charisma coupled with CV and flying qualifications speak for me in an interview before they see me in a mankini and again hope i bump into some open minded people along the way ;)

Alot of hopes i know, but according to all the threads ive read on this site, it seems hope and luck is half the trick of finding a job post training.

so heres hoping....

magicmick
25th Feb 2015, 06:42
Well done on passing the medical and kicking off the process of getting your licence. Regarding tattoos, I have seen some job ads in the last couple of years that have specified no visible tattoos (BA and Aer Lingus for instance) but it’s by no means an industry standard.

Probably more important than the skin art is the art of networking while training, if there are any operators (small or large) at the airfield where you train then introduce yourself to them and use some of that sparkling ex infantry wit and charm on them. Make a good enough impression and the tattoos will be less of a worry.

To be brutally honest, the recruitment situation for freshly qualified low hours ladies and gents is so dire that some tattoos on your arms will be the least of your worries. Obviously a strong CV and military experience can play in your favour, however I’m ex Fleet Air Arm (engineer not pilot) and I’m sure you realise that absolutely no-one in any industry (aviation or otherwise) owes any of us a living due to military experience.

One note of caution, please do not get into serious debt or risk your (or someone else’s) property as security against a huge loan, the training is a gamble with eye watering sums of your money as the stake and you should never bet what you cannot afford to lose and budget for the possibility of having to stump up for a type rating or further training. As with the sage advice a few posts further up, use the ELCs wherever possible, there are plenty of training schools that are ELC registered.

Whatever you choose to do in the future I sincerely wish you all the best.

leedsample
25th Feb 2015, 10:14
cheers mick, means alot. i hope you are right (there's the magic word again) i fully understand waving a military CV around and possessing an unfounded superior attitude due to being forces is extremely counter productive. Being ex military is a great talking point but by no means a key to employment, and i understand this.

In regards to training and fees, im in a fortunate position where i actually have the funds in cash to do it on my own, integrated or modular. One saving grace after all the Afghanistan tours.

I suppose i will have to make my way in the aviation world just like everybody else and pray i get lucky, show up at the right time and turn up with a positive mental attitude.

Thanks guys

magicmick
25th Feb 2015, 12:20
No worries fella (I assume there are no lady infantry soldiers), nice to see that you’re being level headed and going into this with your eyes well and truly open. When I was going through resettlement it was truly shocking how many people thought that their military experience guaranteed them a new career. Just to see me off some of them did manage to walk out into well paid stable careers with prospects though most had a very rough reality check.

Great to see that you have your finances squared away, with the operational tempo of the last decade or so you’ve earned every penny of that money (and a lot more) the hard way spending months at a time away from family and friends in dangerous places and putting your life at risk. Fantastic to see that you are using the cash to do something that you obviously desperately want to do and is important to you.

Since completing flying training I have not had any paid flying work, I did get invited to a Ryanair assessment day, unfortunately the village idiot where I live kidnapped me and went in my place. That’s my excuse anyway, suffice to say I didn’t cover myself in glory in the sim and predictably received the custard pie email in due course.

It will be useful to have a Plan B to keep money coming in while you are looking for flying work post completion of training, not sure if you were able to learn any trades or skills in the Army ie HGV driving etc that might be useful in civvy street but you may have to rely on them when searching for flying work.

As the male modelling/ porn star career never got going for me, my Plan B was to fall back on my aircraft engineering work. I am now a technical consultant working for a consultancy that farms me and my colleagues out to various customers (mostly MoD). I am currently working as part of a small team of consultants within one of the project teams at Abbey Wood near Bristol. The work itself is mind numbing and could be done by a trained chimp but the pay is good, Abbey Wood is commutable from home and the people that I work with and for are great. The whole company that I work for are pretty much all ex military, mostly ex RAF though I’m ex Fleet Air Arm and my immediate boss is ex RLC Major (we try not to hold that against him) as you can imagine the banter in the office is pretty epic.

Once again, all the best and I hope it works out well for you

bhq
27th Feb 2015, 11:00
It says on their FAQs:

Tattoos should not be visible whilst in uniform, including the forearm, and neckline. Please note, a tattoo check will be carried out at selection stage to ensure ability to comply with uniform standards.

Does anyone know what in uniform means specifically? Is that short sleeve, long sleeve?

Poose
27th Feb 2015, 13:32
The tattoo check at selection...

Is that to be sure of the quality and the spelling? ;)


I once knew a guy, when I was in the Army who had 'toaster' written up his spine in Chinese writing...
A slightly misplaced symbol completely changed the wording... :)