buying a plane

[vandereydt]

Good afternoon all,

I am looking at the option of buying a plane. I hold a FAA PPL , working on my FAA IFR rating,and will convert those also to EASA.

Anyway, my mission is lots of cross country flying, both pleasure and business. In Europe.

Because of family size I d need a six seater.

Have been looking at young second hand planes, not many to find :-(

Was also thinking about the option of buying an "older" plane such as Bonanza, Baron, Saratoga, Cessna 321, 402 ...
And overhauling it, refurbishing, restoring , engines, panel, interior ...

I would like to hear your thoughts and ideas

Thanks

Ronny

[9 lives]

Ronny, I suggest you closely examine how often you would need to fly your entire family in a six place aircraft, I bet it's not that often. The cost to buy and operate a six place over a four or two place plane will be huge for the few times that you would actually need all those seats. You'll find you'd be better off with the four or two place, and rent big for the few times you need it. Trust me, if you choose to take a weather or mechanical delay at some remote place, you'll be VERY happy that the whole family is not with you! And then there's the one kid who forgot to go before takeoff....

I have a wife and four kids, and have only ever flown a maximum of five of us at once (in a borrowed 182RG) a couple of times. Honestly, though in 39 years of flying I have never had an accident, I still don't want all of my family in a plane with me - just my choice, having seen too many cases where it did not work out at all well.

Give a lot of thought to your mission profile, you might find that "the big trip" can be equally well accomplished with some EasyJet tickets in addition to your plane, and for a lot less money....

[Johnm]

Get a Cherokee six

[Katamarino]

The cost to buy and operate a six place over a four or two place plane will be huge for the few times that you would actually need all those seats. You'll find you'd be better off with the four or two place, and rent big for the few times you need it.

Renting a six seater in Europe will be extremely difficult. Few and far between.

[dirkdj]

Ronny,

I operate a six-seater since 1969. You can PM me with your mission profile, and I can suggest possible solutions. If you want to become an owner, best to buy your last aircraft first instead. A six seater is good for 4 adults or two adults with 4 kids maximum, unless you want to do day trips with little luggage.

Dirk

[Jan Olieslagers]

Renting a six seater in Europe will be extremely difficult. Few and far between.

There 's a nice one around here, N-reg too; I'm sure Ronny knows about it. If not, his PM is welcome.

[maxred]

Ronny, not wanting to be a spoiler, but, Step turn is right on the money here.

I have a wife and two kids, I have a beautiful Bonanza, and I have flown them about Europe on a number of occasions, however, my wife now states that she does not really like it, clouds etc. I recently bought a yacht, and now all the family are reenergised. We all sail together.

It worried me, until a very good friend said

Aeroplanes are for you, boats and yachts are for the family.

I actually saw the light, and have now realised that unless you are really truly committed, the dream of buying, and regularly flying your family, no longer makes any sense. The never ending stream of reports, with highly capable pilots, in very expensive and capable machines, buying the farm, has started to really bother me also.
My aeroplane will wait for me, once my family have grown up..

[vandereydt]

Thanks all for replying

Of course I need to look at my mission and indeed it will not be often that we fly as a family.

But, but.

But Six seaters are not easy to find for rent

But Most six seaters are in reality only four seaters. And four seaters are more 2+2 rather than full four seaters.
My flying with four adults will be more frequent, and either I sacrifice range, or tell the ladies they can only carry toothbrushes ....

I know, life is not easy,

Ronny

[sharpend]

As Sir Douglas Bader once said' It is not a 'plane' it is an aeroplane' :=

[9 lives]

As Sir Douglas Bader once said' It is not a 'plane' it is an aeroplane' :=

Ronny, you and I will have to get it right. If you're talking to Douglas Bader, make sure you get it right. Otherwise don't sweat it - as I've also heard the terms "Spam Can", "Kite", Aircraft" and, of course "Airplane" chosen by many manufacturers....

In the mean time, I have been enlightened; Modern Air, in Fowlmere, has six seat Pipers for rent. Very accommodating people there. So, you can rent six seats, while owning (and paying the expenses) on fewer seats....

[mary meagher]

Wise words from Step Turn. And he has a LOT of hours and EXPERIENCE.

As you are a beginner, do you really want to trust your family to a low experience pilot in a chaotic airspace like Europe? its not as easy to fly over here as it is in the US.

Are we there yet Dad? I have to go to the TOILET, right NOW!

I FEEL SICK. CAN WE GO HOME?

How old are these kids? As Maxred said, boats are more fun for a family.
For business trips, or travel with a reasonable chance of traveling despite poor weather, I recommend an airline.

[ChickenHouse]

Family size, min. real 6-seater, money not an issue? Get a SET rating and a Cessna Caravan - great for family and business, can even be outfitted with an on board toilet.

[AdamFrisch]

There are very few, if any, SEP six seaters you can load up with 6 people and go any further than to the next field. And even fewer I can think of that can do it safely in all weathers.

Turbine, yes. Great if you can afford that. But if you can't, then a MEP twin is your only reasonable option. There's this huge illogical resistance to twins these days, but they are great choices compared to the alternatives. They will be cheaper to run and own than a SET, safer and can carry more than a SEP.

Let's use my Aerostar as example. Useful load 1640lbs. Load up with 2 adults and 4 kids, and you probably have close to 800lbs left. That's almost full tanks (141gal). That will get you 800nm with IFR reserves at 25gal/hr. Fully de-iced, pressurized, wx radar, can fly at FL250 and 210kts. All for the cost of $145K with newly overhauled engines.

Look at the alternative: buy a SET for $2 million. You can get a lot of fuel for $2 million - more than one can use in a flying lifetime - compared to the purchase of a SET. You won't go much faster and you still don't have an out when the one engine quits in IMC.

Bottom line: twins can do your mission for less than anything else.

[vandereydt]

gentlemen,

please accept my humble apologies. It is indeed an aeroplane
Mr Frisch thank you for your ideas, they make a lot of sense. Something I am indeed looking at.
Multi-engine, refurbished... indeed an option

Thank you

Ronny

Maybe this is shocking for you all, but I do drive around with my whole family in the car, in the extremely dangerous roadtraffic in Europe

[piperboy84]

I have a wife and two kids, I have a beautiful Bonanza,

Hey Maxred should'nt that be I have a beautiful WIFE, 2 kids and a bonanza, you'll get strung up by the bollox if she ever reads that

[dirkdj]

I have flown a SEP 7 seater for 4 years, a SEP 6 seater for 42 years and counting and a MEP six seater for 15 years. Every aircraft is a compromise between price, seating capacity, fuel capacity with full seats, maintenance costs, comfort, etc etc. Used MEP aircraft are very cheap for a reason. Maintenance, airways charges, landing fees and AVGAS add up very quickly.

Older aircraft of the same type are usually lighter and can carry a bigger load than more recent models (thinking of my 1973 BE36 vs 2015 BE36). The basic airframe is the same but several hundred pounds heavier in recent models. I can carry 5x 170lbs standard adults with nearly full fuel. I have done trips to Ireland and Scotland with 6 adults on board (one couple was lightweight), we had minimum luggage on board and ample fuel reserves. UPS delivered all the suitcases we cared to ship directly to the hotel.

Without knowing your qualifications, typical mission or future aspirations, it is difficult to advise. Is this your first aircraft?

[maxred]

Piper Mrs Maxred removed those years ago, when I first put my foot in my mouth.

Let me rephrase, I have a beautiful wife, two beautiful kids, and a truly wonderful and beautiful Bonanza. Right now, I am wondering which of them is costing me more. Used to think it was my wife:rolleyes:

Dirk, that is a good point. I have on several occasions Fed Ex'd the bags to our destination, picked them up and into the hire car. Works well on villa rentals when the kitchen sink needs to be packed.......

[9 lives]

If light to medium multi engine aircraft are coming into consideration, my cautions expand.

then a MEP twin is your only reasonable option. There's this huge illogical resistance to twins these days, but they are great choices compared to the alternatives. They will be cheaper to run and own than a SET, safer and can carry more than a SEP.By choosing an Aerostar, Adam has sidestepped some real concerns about light twins. An Aerostar will do the job, but that makes it unusual. A C 310 and Aztec are about the smallest twins which really have what it takes to claim "safer" than a SEP. It takes a lot of nerve, but in many light twins, the failure of an engine in anything other than cruise or descent is the cue to choose a landing site in view ahead, and prepare to reduce power on the remaining engine as you set up a forced approach a little further on than the SEP would have glided. These aircraft require great skill to climb away on one, with any kind of load. There are very many accident reports describing pilots who thought they could do it, and could not. The difference to a SEP? The SEP pilot who looses and (the) engine, knows they have a forced approach in their imminent future, and make the most of it - wings level!

During twin flight testing I have done, even up to Navajos, I have advised and briefed that an engine failure on departure will be cause to initiate a forced approach ahead, rather than a go around. No one has ever disagreed with me...

I recommend the following article as an eye opener:

8740-25, Always Leave Yourself an Out (http://paragonair.com/public/docs/Safety_Pamphlets/P8740-25.html)

I've never had all six of us together in a car in Europe, but certainly in Canada and the US. Yes, there are also horrendous car accidents, but your more common nuisance car accident does not kill everyone in the car. Too many aircraft accidents do. A difference will be the Mrs. She is your team member in the car, quelling the kids, and supporting you. In the plane likely she's as out of her element as the kids, and of little help to you in quelling them, so you solo have a plane and five people to please.

Personally, if I needed to take my wife and four kids in a plane together, I would, but perhaps a difference is that they have flown with me in sub groups for more than 20 years, so it's not so far out of the norm for them. I guarantee you that loading the whole family into a six place plane is going to create some uneasiness, unless they are experienced fliers. To test my theory, take subsets of them on one hour long trips to another place. When it's all smiles for everyone, things are looking up. You'll know for sure, when you have a WX or MX delay for a day or two, at a truly boring place, and a skuzzy motel. If they smile through that, you're in good shape.

Speaking personally, from 40 years of flying experience, there have been many times I was very happy not to have pax, as the flight got very scary, or otherwise annoying, I was scared or annoyed, and was in no mood to Mr. nice dad hubby. When the family is delay grumpy, and you're miffed about the cause, it all goes bad fast. Avoid! The relationship you know with your family will change for the more stressed when you mix a trip in a plane into it.

One thing which has worked a few times, has been a fly drive holiday (if your Mrs. is really co-operative. and likes to drive). Fly the two or four seater and she drives the route. Land everywhere along the way, and change pax, everyone gets a turn along the route.

Happily, I can state my experience and opinion without knowing the experience of other posters (so if I'm insulting any of you, sorry) But, I would not send any of my family with a pilot of less than several hundred hours experience on class and conditions, and well into the thousands of hours experience, were it to be all of them on one flight.

I'm not writing to discourage buying a plane, anything but.... but I would make a lot of effort to dissuade a several hundred hour friend from buying a six place to fly the whole family around. I would (do) advise to buy small first, and grow if it works.

I just know too much about GA flying....

[AdamFrisch]

Step Turn, you are not necessarily wrong, but I was trying to avoid the old single vs. twin discussion and just look at performance per buck spent.

My point was simply:

SEP: Won't do it. Low cost.
MEP: Will do it. Low cost.
SET: Will do it. High cost.
MET: Will do it. High cost.

So if cost is a factor, a piston twin is your best option. Gives the maximum bang for the buck. If cost is somewhat of a factor, but you're in the turbine realm, then I would argue that the MET is the next best choice as it has climb performance on one engine AND will be cheaper to buy into than a SET. It's safer, bigger and cheaper, simply because the SET concept is rather new and there are no old SET airframes on the market. If cost is no factor at all, buy a newish SET or a Jet.

I am myself moving to a MET as we speak, because of many things we talked about: It's safer and has better performance on one engine. It's faster and burns a fuel that's less expensive, making the cost per nm the same as an Avgas twin. Fuel is more flexible and accessible. Less things can go wrong and engine management and hourly service is greatly reduced (they just don't break down very much compared to piston engines).

[abgd]

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but why are there so few permit twins? The only ones I can think of are the Cri-Cri and Rutan Defiant. I can see in the UK that you wouldn't fly one IMC, so its advantage over a high-performance single is limited. But even in the USA I can't think of many.

[9 lives]

but why are there so few permit twins? ..... But even in the USA I can't think of many.

How about:

Gweduck Aircraft - Home (http://www.gweduck.com/)

or

Lockwood Aircraft - AirCam Price (http://lockwoodaircraft.com/Price.htm)

But generally, there are few people with the inertia to build a multi engined aircraft. The practical need for feathering propellers dramatically drives up complexity and cost. By the time you can devote the effort to that task, you probably have lots of resources to just go and buy what you want. The CriCri is certainly an exception, as were the Lazair and CanAero Toucan.

[Shoestring Flyer]

A UK twin on a CAA permit:-

Speedtwin Developments (http://www.speedtwin.co.uk/)

[9 lives]

That is very cool, however, in fairness, we should drift this thread back toward the OP's inquiry - factors in buying a larger people mover....

[Jan Olieslagers]

The practical need for feathering propellers

Whence the need?

[dirkdj]

Most twins (MEP) won't climb on one engine unless the prop of the dead engine is feathered.

[mary meagher]

Ronny, I am definitely old enough to be your mother. And just like my 50 year old kids, you don't like anyone to rain on your parade.

BUT would you please answer one question. You say you drive around the dangerous roads of Europe with your entire family in the car.

How many hours, over your lifetime, have you driven a car?

And how many hours do you have in your flying logbook?

[9 lives]

I am definitely old enough to be your mother. And just like my 50 year old kids, you don't like anyone to rain on your parade.

Uhoh... I may be in for it next!

Ronny, please don't feel put down, no one here is out to rain on your parade, but some of us are suggesting a route we know well, where it is sunny a lot more of the time! The second last thing we want to do is to discourage a fellow aviator, this is a pastime of comradery. But the last thing we want to do is see you having an unhappy family event at all, let alone with a plane in the middle of it.

From time to time the subject of the whole family in a six seater comes up, and the answer is always the same from a group of us - it's nothing personal - we don't know you!

[vandereydt]

Good morning Mary, Step Turn and all


Thank you so much for your ideas.
They all make sense.

I am with you on the family thing, indeed not the best idea

maybe more realistic : I would like to have a "real" four seater, enough to carry four adults and a decent load of fuel and luggage


Two options come in mind something like a Bonanza, Piper Matrix, Saratoga ...
Or a decent twin Cessna, Piper, Beech Baron, ...


Money of course is an issue. A Piper Meridian or TBM is indeed a dream but unfortunately financially not an option


Am trying to learn now. To hear from as many experienced aviators as possible


It s not easy


thank you all

[9 lives]

It's our pleasure Ronny, It is why we participate. No matter what you do in life, someone has probably gone before, and their advice has some merit...

Only you know what type will meet your mission needs, but the biggest mis step I see in this is the selection of an aircraft type for personal use which exceeds the need and budget. I see so many "bigger" planes just sitting derelict at airports, while the lower cost/capability aircraft get used.

Last week I was at a UK airport for a few days, musing about a twin Cessna which has evidently sat for a very long time, with a fellow who has sold his PA28, to buy a newer two place aircraft.

I own one two place and one three place aircraft. I can borrow any of several very capable four place Cessnas if I need one. My best advice (particularly for your first aircraft) ease in to ownerships with a good condition version of the lesser type that will meet your needs. You can trade up, if you got it wrong, but in the mean time, you get the ownership experience without the big shocks [of maintenance] along the way.

Twin Cessnas (310, 303, 337) are great planes, but they are being captured by structural inspections which can range from $50,000 to $100,000. The inspections are warranted. Twin Pipers (indeed all legacy low wing Pipers) are parts availability challenged. I suggest that upon considering the true "mission" you need to accomplish, you narrow down to a few similar capability types which will do it, and come back and ask for experience on those types, particularly maintenance cost experience.

We're always here to help...

[mary meagher]

Buying a plane....buying a glider. Back to the original question. First aircraft I ever bought was a Pegasus glider, that was after doing a lot of cross country flying in K8's and K18. I didn't like the single seat Astir at Booker gliding club, wasn't comfortable in it, I just didn't fly it very well, it was heavy and quite different from the wooden gliders. The club then bought a couple of new Pegasus gliders, one fixed wheel, the other was retractable. WOW, what a difference! I was COMFORTABLE IN THE SEAT. And the performance, with a glide ratio of 40 to one, was excellent, the handling delightful, the airbrakes EXTREMELY effective, so I felt confident in landing out.

So, before deciding what airplane to buy, try to fly as many different types as you can arrange.

And be sure you are comfortable in the seat. Though I hope with pax you would think of their comfort and make a stop every 2 or 3 hours. (In the glider, the Peg, my longest flight in the UK was 8 hours and 53 minutes, I was busy the WHOLE TIME! flying 511 k in a competition.)

There are plenty of 4 seat aircraft for you to try out. Sit in them. Try out the back seats as well. ( You will have to be firm about luggage. Remember weight and balance really matter.)

Fly them. Check out the airfields near you, what will be the best place to keep it? Consider shares. Nobody sails a yacht 24/7. Mostly they sit around in marinas. So shares make sense.

Speaking as an old granny, I am trying to talk a friend of mine who owns an interesting aeroplane to take me with him for an excursion to Italy. The crunch time follows when I try to climb into the aircraft. And likewise, try to climb out, it ain't easy these days. Took three people to install me in the club Chipmunk, two to push and the pilot to pull. and I am NOT FAT. Just old.

So if you might actually take your mother up some day to fly over her house, this might be a factor....how easy for your family to climb on board?

All you experts reading this, is it possible/legal, for passengers to change seats in flight?

[Pace]

Van

Always look at your mission profile and fit the aircraft to that profile not the other way around.
Your most precious cargo are your family and with you as the sole pilot I would seriously consider a Cirrus with its BRS? At least they stand a chance if anything serious happens.
Look at whether you need an all weather aircraft? Are your skills up to an all weather capability?
Look at anti ice/ deice ? very important even in the summer if you intend to fly airways.
More recent cirrus have that ability too.
so really look at your mission profile, your budget, your experience levels and then the aircraft to suit.
as some said it maybe better to rent than buy

Pace

[dirkdj]

I have flown a lot of trips in Europe, from Norway to North Africa and from Ireland to Czech Rep, Mostly for business but quite a bit with my family (parents and sisters when young, wife and children later, step-grandchildren now). The most important piece of safety equipment is the pilot who knows when to press the NO-GO button.

In all those years I have seen accidents happen all around me. One was a SET helicopter with the whole family and fiancé flying into HT wires after a Christmas family reunion. Another was a SET with father, daughter and grandchildren in a badly loaded P210.

BRS would not have saved any of those, nor would a second engine, but a well trained, disciplined pilot would.

I would seriously look at a Beech A36 that can be equipped with TKS and Turbonormalizer as the pilot experience and needs grow. My friend did just that, getting his IR on the A36, 4 years later he added a TN and oxygen, and later TKS. It is hard to find a better combination of comfort, speed, capability in a SEP. I have flown EBKT to EDSZ to LSZA and back to EBKT in a single day with extensive lunch at LSZA.

[Sam Rutherford]

Older Saratoga...

:)

[9 lives]

When choosing a plane to own, there's more to think about than if you are just going to rent it. Maintenance becomes an important factor - if you cannot maintain it, you cannot fly it.

Personally, based upon a lot of experience, I'm leery of legacy Pipers from the ownership perspective. They're fine planes to fly, but not so easy to repair sometimes. I have been involved in the repair of several, which was painfully costly (compared to repair of the same damage on a Cessna) for lack of support from Piper, and lack of parts. I have been involved with other Pipers where my declaration that an economical repair was not possible, became the death blow for the airframe.

In one case, I spoke with a Piper tech rep in regard of a Seneca, to have her say to me: "Sir, that's a 40 year old plane, Piper hasn't seen it in 40 years, and we don't want it in the air any more" [so they would not provide primary airframe parts]. Those are scary words, when compared to Cessna, who provide ample structural repair information in the service manual, have many fewer proprietary parts, and will offer to make any part for just about any vintage Cessna you want - for a price.

Last week I was visiting a Piper operator in the UK, who mentioned frequent difficulties getting factory support for Pipers. I asked, just to continue my understanding, the information was free flowing - poor support. We were standing beside a simply damaged Saratoga at the time, and the repair quote is huge for that one. It would be "by the book" easy, were it a Cessna.

This is not a "knock the Piper, pump the Cessna" exercise, to fly them, they are both fine aircraft types. But, it is an apparent reality that ownership choices MUST include consideration of maintenance and repair opportunity, for long term utility and resale value.

Ask around a lot, before you select a type...

[ChickenHouse]

Ask around a lot, before you select a type...
Absolutely, and keep in mind that the initial cost for the purchase is in almost all circumstances unimportant, as maintenance will eat your money faster then any purchase ... ;-).

[27/09]

This is not a "knock the Piper, pump the Cessna" exercise, to fly them, they are both fine aircraft types. But, it is an apparent reality that ownership choices MUST include consideration of maintenance and repair opportunity, for long term utility and resale value.

The maintenance and repair opportunity applies equally well to both Cessna and Piper. Ask some owners about the Cessna SIDS programme. There's more than one or two Cessnas permanently grounded because of SIDS.

Provided you do your homework either a second hand Piper or Cessna will serve you well, as will some other types.

[27/09]

So if you are still considering a MEP just ask yourself how you would feel about £20,000 bills for an annual, or a £70,000 bill when the engines need overhauling. And how about another £50,000 to fit some modern avionics, which will never work as well as those fitted in a newer aircraft because the autopilot is an old out of production model.

20,000 pounds for an annual, how can anyone make it to be that expensive and why would a twin be significantly more than a complex single?

Engine costs can be budgeted for and life remaining is reflected in the purchase price.

Avionics upgrades can be pricey no matter whether it's for a SEP, SET, MEP or MET. Most older autopilots cope pretty well especially with GPSS which is pretty standard these days.

[Jan Olieslagers]

why would a twin be significantly more than a complex single?

I've heard repeated mention of a certain mindset, that someone who can afford to fly an expensive plane can afford a correspondingly expensive maintenance bill. Mind you, twins may be inexpensive to acquire but they have to be expensive on fuel burn and on insurance. Harder to find hangarage for, too, in certain parts. Why shouldn't they be made expensive on maintenance, too?