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motojet
18th Feb 2015, 13:57
I just clicked on the ever present EK ad on PPrune for First Officers. It took me to the group careers website and much to my surprise there is a link for A330 DEC positions, posted today at 1400.
Am I mistaken?

SOPS
18th Feb 2015, 14:23
Yep, it's there.

B737SFP
18th Feb 2015, 14:40
There's even a fkin AD for the position !

http://i57.tinypic.com/2wdt6ir.png

Feel really sorry for the FOs waiting their turn...

:ugh:

emratty
18th Feb 2015, 14:48
All the F/O's who join Emirates know that they hire DEC's it's happened enough times over the years. It's not ideal but if you join as an F/O there is always a risk this will happen.

Fearless Leader
18th Feb 2015, 14:54
Dont feel sorry for them not upgrading, feel sorry that they are stuck on that damn fleet.
Even as Capt, it still stinks.(sux)

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it

sluggums
18th Feb 2015, 15:01
Jeez, another nail in the coffin of morale...

GoreTex
18th Feb 2015, 15:15
EK hired DEC's the last 15 years and even longer, they always will, it was discussed many times

fliion
18th Feb 2015, 15:19
Emratty,

I'm sure no one surprised but what would have been appropriate from mgt is an email explaining current situation.

I'm not saying it would soften the blow for those who were close - that now are further.

Just a little professional respect in light of the fact that this will have work & financial implications for those FOS who have been working so hard over the past years with the 'Command' light at end of tunnel.

They just never miss an opportunity....to miss an opportunity..

The concept of management is to represent your employer's wishes...we get it...but no mgt/grad school would ever teach ignoring the employees aspirations....it's a fine balance.

Just an email would have shown a minute semblance of care.

Not a chance

This airline aspires to be one of the great airlines of the world...to those of you considering joing - think of some of the great brands out there - now stop, take a step back and ask yourself...do I want to join an outfit that had just bypassed loyal employees for advancement- and the only way these employees heard about it was through an ad. You cannot make this up.

Bravo

f.

Oscar84
18th Feb 2015, 16:49
I am so sorry with all the A330 FO working in EK, that will be a mess for the people... time to look outside??

donpizmeov
18th Feb 2015, 17:01
Only a rumour, but 60 DEC for the 777 and 40 DEC for the 330 this year. The 330 DEC are to release 330 Capts to the 380, and will stay for on 330 till there end date. Boeing DEC to give some relief to training and recruiting.

Gillegan
18th Feb 2015, 17:15
Kind of puts those ads EK are running touting a move to the left seat into perspective.

bogeydope
18th Feb 2015, 18:09
Gillegan, well said!!

The management of this place never ceases to amaze me!!!

captplaystation
18th Feb 2015, 19:02
What I don't understand is at what stage of your entry into, & career with, Emirates you actually believed that you are viewed with any more respect than a Phillipino Chamber Maid ? did you really believe that ? :ugh: why do you think so many people are NOT beating a path to your door ?

montencee
18th Feb 2015, 20:43
...why do you think so many people are NOT beating a path to your door ?

And therein lies the problem. In spite of more than 10 years of negative press on this board people ARE still 'beating a path' to EKs door.


A reminder of what goes on here.
Already this year in less than 7 weeks we have had:

Removal of passenger load data from the internal company website making subload travel impossible to plan with any accuracy.

Removal of self-certification for short term illness for cabin crew.

Annual leave entitlements not met with some crew having no leave for periods of 18 months or more.

New FTLs that don't include ULR bunk time towards 100 hours/28 days and 900 hours/12 months.

Today we have the return of DECs. Ironically the only seat I would consider if I was joining EK now would be as a DEC.

Before year end we will have the new rostering system expected to include no more than 5 choices each month and never more than 3 consecutive days off.


And so on...

Am NOT Sure
18th Feb 2015, 22:25
This is going to a whole new level!

2015 is not a pleasant year

A bonus will follow to alleviate the impact .. But once the money is ravisly and swiftly spent .. This space is going to be visited everyday

Plane_Sailing
19th Feb 2015, 02:37
This is really far more significant than previous DEC hiring events. This is not because there is a shortage of upgrade candidates and it's not because the training department is overwhelmed, this is because not enough suitable FO candidates are applying. But instead of immediately responding to the situation with a change in pay and conditions, they are putting a band aid over a severed artery. This will have the effect of increasing resignations and reducing applications. They are creating their own demise very successfully.

reportalfaqa
19th Feb 2015, 05:25
"Kick Em While Their Down", the ongoing management motto lives up, or rather down to its sorry expectations. The three foot from right seat to left seat just go further. :ugh:

jack schidt
19th Feb 2015, 07:19
To those FO's affected (sincerest bad luck) but you were warned here before joining, you made your choice/mistake to join EK now live with it please.

To those FO's who are thinking about coming, please re-read the above.

No one is at fault, except yourself, for signing up to the EK way of doing things. You have 2 choices........

Jack

346Heavy
19th Feb 2015, 08:28
Guys i am currently working in REC for some other airline.....i don't know about EK but over here we always higher DEC but our F/O's have priority. opening up for DEC will never stop internal upgrades but from a man power planning point of view when you short on captains u just simply need to higher captains because training an F/O will take time and as much as we love upgrades some one has to occupy that right seat as well.

i know it sux if you where a skipper and join EK on the right and now the job is open for DEC...but i guess we have to accept the decisions we make in life.

glofish
19th Feb 2015, 09:26
.... i don't know about EK but over here we always ....

Heavy, this is the epitome of naďveté of pilots aspiring or dreaming of EK. No insult intended, merely stating the obvious.

Before even contemplating of applying, or contributing to EK threads, read all that has been written. Especially about the changes of conditions since 2008. Do your homework!

The "over here we did" and "in my former company" is only suited to either bring your morale to a new low or make a complete fool out of yourself. Here, they don't give a rodents backside about the rest of the world.

Any FO, and by that i mean, each and every FO, joining EK at this stage must be either out of a job and in dire need of doe, or naive to the point of being almost dangerous in a modern 2-man cockpit.

The conditions are not the worst of the world, but as pilots we should be used in reading trends and take avoiding action before impact. The trend here is pointing to a hard impact!

Most of us warning on these sites are not outright against EK or Dubai, most have done their homework before joining and were satisfied with what was to expect. Not one of us however expected these managers capable of such "treason" and capable of changing almost all T&C's to deteriorate the conditions to that point.

We are merely extrapolating our experience and thus having to paint a really dire picture of what will be EK in a few months and years. They got away with so much, no one cared, no customer was afraid, no manager stood up, no regulator stepped in, neither the local ones nor the ones of countries visited by this outfit.

They will continue, that's for sure. There's no one to stop them!

Pointer
20th Feb 2015, 06:17
Removed after reflection and concluded lack of interest.

Pointer

expat400
20th Feb 2015, 06:32
They were not lying. "foreseeable future" in the airline industry is about a week.

montencee
20th Feb 2015, 09:06
Are you going to hire any DEC's in the foreseeable future? Answer: No!

You wouldn't have known this but the first time an EK manager announced there would be no more DECs was back in 1997 or thereabouts. The then HFO GJ said he would be EKs last DEC. Since then the 'last DEC' has turned up at least half a dozen times.

What you should have picked up on is that anything said here is only true until the start of the next working day or lunchtime if it's said in the morning.


Here's a quote from TCAS made back in 2009:

Emirates will not relax its strict rule that, no matter how many flying hours a recruit has notched up, everyone joining the flightdeck does so as a first officer.

The whole article is here: Middle East supplement: Emirates back in the hunt soon - 4/17/2009 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/middle-east-supplement-emirates-back-in-the-hunt-soon-325172/)

320busdriver
20th Feb 2015, 09:31
Montencee you conveniently left the fact he also went on to say:ugh:


"We never rule these things out, but we don't anticipate taking anyone on directly as a captain," says Stealey. However, promotion to captain tends to be rapid for candidates with the experience and ability.:*


At the end of the day its a business solution, ground hundred of millions of dollars worth of aircraft or piss off a few staff:mad: we all know which solution they took.

montencee
20th Feb 2015, 09:55
Yes, it's lucky I posted the link to the article so you could point that out.

Global Nomad
20th Feb 2015, 10:16
Fliion, question.

A while back, there were a number of pilots that received an 'accelerated command'. Did they write an email to the FO's they'd bypassed explaining/apologising for being forced into the situation? No. So then I don't see why EK should write an email on behalf of DEC's that have yet to join the company just to make you feel better.

EK hires DEC's. Fact.

As to the guy that claimed he was told by recruitment, no DEC's in the foreseeable future. The recruiters most likely gave you an honest answer and besides, they usually find out policy about 3 hrs before you do . If you were gullible enough to interpret their words into a meaning that suited you, well what can I say.

Have your rant, it's not going to change anything we don't already know.

fatbus
20th Feb 2015, 12:16
The same guys claim they were "promised an upgrade in 3 years", you only have to be here a short while and/ or talk to a pilot recruiter to know the truth

thatwasclose
20th Feb 2015, 13:02
Guys, I think we are missing the point. Yes ek hires DEC, but the claim they do not want to. Yet it is the total mismanagement that leads to this. With proper planning it could have been averted. Instead, because of incompetence we have perfectly good colleagues who will suffer from this. Emirates is not a good company to work for.
For all those thinking of coming, look to our south first ! You would be crazy not to go there instead of here if you could .

electricdeathjet
20th Feb 2015, 19:07
An FO should not be having to babysit the Captain as in the case of the last batch of 777/330 DEC's

Cute... And a slightly arrogant comment!

fatbus
21st Feb 2015, 02:26
Those would be the same FO's failing the upgrade.

ekwhistleblower
21st Feb 2015, 08:04
TWC,

I think they are trying to tactically manage the drawdown of the 330 fleet in the face of reducing recruitment as fewer have been attracted and of those that have, fewer are succeeding. Add that to the loss of Trainers and the situation can quickly become critical and irretrievable. So there will be outsourced training on the cards to try and catch up as they try to find a way to attract more candidates.

We know this will cost a boat load of money and so the penny pinching attitude of the last couple of years will come back to bite them and cost even more money in the long run. Until they break the cycle of short-term gain leading to long-term pain nothing will improve. The company leadership prides itself on flexibility but then fails to notice when flexibility becomes knee-jerking.

The solution in the short term is to allow the talented managers to manage without interference from untrained wannabees. The situation in training apparently went downhill when the last purge happened and the personnel changes have directly led to retention issues. As far as recruitment is concerned, those in the team fully realise the issues but battle with the inertia of the process. Senior leadership want instant results but it takes months to recruit and train new pilots so it must be accepted that the company should have a small reserve of personnel to allow for growth and issues with recruitment. That would also have the added benefit of reducing the pressure on frontline staff. Over time this approach would save money but the short term cost increase would almost certainly lead to the unenlightened dismissing it.

Ultimately though a company stands or falls on its culture and whether or not the employees buy into it. 20 years ago they used to but now that is no longer the case. If this does not change in the longer term the business will be doomed to mediocrity. Emirates is a brilliant brand that now must adapt from exploitation of employees to empowering and trusting them if it is to flourish further. Bullying, fear and ridicule should not be tolerated at any level of the business.

SOPS
21st Feb 2015, 09:47
Ek blower what an excellent post!

DCS99
21st Feb 2015, 17:07
Emirates is a brilliant brand that now must adapt from exploitation of employees to empowering and trusting them

Well said EKWB.

Pointer
21st Feb 2015, 18:14
(Removed after reflection and concluded lack of interest, Pointer)


Very true post Ek Blower

(edited to include praise for ekblower)

busboy1980
23rd Feb 2015, 16:04
Dont bother looking south. Its much worse. South is good for a quick command.
However south has the lowest pay in the region and the worst rosters. They hire DECs all the time and on the best fleets. Even the 330 roster in EK is better that 330/340 roster down south(min 8 days off a month mostly and a request system that doesn't work).

TangoUniform
23rd Feb 2015, 18:27
Emirates is a brilliant brand that now must adapt from exploitation of employees to empowering and trusting them if it is to flourish further.

I will agree with the rest, an accurate and most dramatic statement about EK as I have ever read.

BigGeordie
23rd Feb 2015, 22:03
The thing that will really screw over the A330 F/Os is not the DECs on that fleet. It is the fact that they will then go across to the A380 as Captains while the F/Os who have already suffered for the company bottom line will move across as F/Os (I doubt there will be any more upgrades on the A330 now) and then have to do another 2,500 hours before they can be considered for an upgrade on the A380! This will literally add years to their time in the right hand seat.

Kapitanleutnant
24th Feb 2015, 07:05
Ask the pointed questions…. you have nothing to lose

1. You advert 42 days vacation, but only give 30?
2. Won't the DEC's you're hiring slow my upgrade time considerably?

etc….

K

sluggums
24th Feb 2015, 08:55
And ask about forced/allocated leave....

170to5
24th Feb 2015, 12:07
...and how the new FTL's will affect rosters, even for 380 crew, and how you will be lucky enough to live in any one of a number of company-provided houses that are smaller and built to far worse standards than the one you'd be leaving to move to Dubai...and how you'll not have that much extra cash at the end of the month because everything is proportionately expensive in relation to your salary...

IMO the next few months are very, very uncertain for EK flight crew, it might be wise to hold off (as nice as the cavalry of new guys would be) to see what the company looks like as an employer once any dust has settled in September or October...

Machspeed
24th Feb 2015, 19:54
If they announce B777 DECs before going up the line for OM-A qualified FOs, I'm handing in my resignation. And two weeks notice will do just fine. There's 200+ qualified FOs right now with 36 months in the seat at EK on the Boeing. This is the year we've been waiting for.

They wanted me to give my previous employer min notice, I'll do the same for them too.

donpizmeov
24th Feb 2015, 21:14
Muchspeed is a very good example of EK new hires. The fact that EK was hiring DECs and FOs were being bypassed when he joined didn't matter as it did not concern him. Now that he may be shafted by the same policy he threatens to resign (yeah right).

I hate to say we told you so, but we did.

Machspeed
24th Feb 2015, 21:43
Nope knew it then. Know it now. Situation different. I didn't join here for the upgrade. Wasn't chasing the airplane, have been doing this crazy career for 27 years now. Left a much, much, much higher paying job for this. I'm here for another reason totally unrelated to aviation. Now that has changed. So the later becomes an issue only on the basis of the principal that they lied.

Oh, when I was hired they had not hired DECs for 7 years. Said they didn't plan on it again. The last round of of DECs was during my first year here.

Also when I was hired there was a very very different tone on this forum even. If you can remember that. Most were talking about the lack of bonuses and pay. Most still cared and did their best to help the company achieve their goals thinking it would benefit them as well. "Laughing now".

Amazing how three plus years can change a groups attitude. I mean do you go the extra mile to save 100kgs of fuel on something that might put you in front of management with them telling you that "in their book" it was not the best thing to do and therefore you will now get a letter in your file. Not worth it. But three years ago, everyone was doing what they thought was their part to go the extra mile. To make that extra dollar.

Not anymore.

fliion
25th Feb 2015, 06:01
Machspeed.,,

Fact check. If the last round of DECs was in your first year of hire...then to say they hadn't hired DECS in the seven years prior is categorically incorrect.

f.

Machspeed
25th Feb 2015, 06:36
Fact check. They hired DECs in 2012. I was hired in 2011. Last DECs before I was hired I thought, was 7 years prior to that. So 2004/2005

Capn Rex Havoc
25th Feb 2015, 06:42
They definitely hired DECs in 2006 and 2007.

airbusgirl66
25th Feb 2015, 07:02
Have a DEC acquaintance who was hired in 2008.

Mr Good Cat
25th Feb 2015, 07:11
DECs were hired up until 2009, then again in 2012.

Not criticising the poster, but DECs have and always will be taken by EK. Not because they are better, not because they want to upset the FOs - just simply that they get their planning wrong due to lack of organisation, lack of communication between departments and refusing to admit fault due to the blame culture.

Once you accept that no such concept as "that's unfair" out here you'll be much less stressed.

B777 DEC will almost certainly happen to alleviate the double-demand on training which would otherwise be inevitable (Promote & Recruit vs. Just Recruit).

gastounet
25th Feb 2015, 07:52
Machspeed,
don't say 'fact' if it is not ...
Lot's of DEC's in 2006 and 2007 ...

Schnowzer
25th Feb 2015, 11:11
Divide and conquer. Slamming Mr Mach won't change anything. There is lots of creative info out there, look at the packages on the website 85 hours/month = 1020/year so if you get your leave and training well over 100/month. What to believe?

fatbus
25th Feb 2015, 11:22
The fact is DEC's have and will be at EK forever. Would not be surprised if the current add changes to 330/777 to see if the response increases . I can also see 380 DEC's if and when the response for the 330/777 drops.
Don't think that lack of qualified FO applications will slow the expansion. It will only slow the upgrades.
Pilots are not a valued commodity . You can and will be replaced by a cheaper new hire be it FO or DEC.

glofish
25th Feb 2015, 11:29
Brace for fake DEC's!
They won't stop at crew bags if it saves a Dirtyham .... :ugh:

Craggenmore
25th Feb 2015, 13:26
and what a price 330 DEC's pay.........

TineeTim
25th Feb 2015, 14:41
I seriously wonder if we're not at a point where DECs will be continuously recruited. Sadly, not because of lack of qualified internal candidates, but because they're just not getting enough qualified applicants coming through the door. That's what I see as the big difference this time. I know the claim is that it's due to training places, but I think lack of suitable F/O applicants is another big factor. I'll be very curious to see where this round of DECs come from and what sort of quality they get. Seems to me there's plenty of superior options around for experienced Captains.

Machspeed
27th Feb 2015, 08:54
Ok so this is news to me then. The only DECs I know of where hired in 2005ish or so. Didn't know anything about the 2009ers. So that just goes to show the lies in the interviews and initial HR briefings the first week of joining. HR told us that DECs were many years ago and not a practice of the company any longer.

I made this a point of question prior to accepting the position and during the first week CFs answer was that the program was not as successful as they always plan it to be and that they would initiate fast tracks before hiring DECs this time. đź‘Ť

uba737
27th Feb 2015, 09:21
There were 2 B777 DEC's hired in my class in 2008!

The Guru
27th Feb 2015, 09:48
There are a couple of things that have really been omitted from this discussion.

First, EK have never sought for their pilot’s opinion on DEC recruitment, and consequently they make their operational decisions very much regardless of the preferences of the F/Os that are waiting to either transition or upgrade, and definitely without consideration of the accepted practices in other airlines. They have done it in the past and will continue to do it in the future. It is a short term fix, which will have longer term implications just like all their other decisions.

Secondly, at EK a DEC candidate will normally undergo a full selection process, a full company induction, a full GCAA type conversion (regardless of it already being on his licence), a full EK command upgrade course (regardless of it already being on his licence) and then be subjected to the same line training and checking requirements as an upgrade candidate. In short the process of DEC recruitment is actually longer than a right to left upgrade! While many have passed, it is true that many a DEC has struggled with simultaneously joining the EK culture, doing an EK type endorsement, and doing an EK command course at the same time. Admittedly in an attempt to reduce the failure rate, this advertisement is only seeking A330 A340 previously qualified applicants.

Thirdly, DECs never leave the bottom of the seniority list. They are jumped by every F/O recruited ahead of them throughout their entire career in EK. Therefore within their bid group they will always have lower bidding preferences, and always get the least desirable flights……and the least desirable on the A330 network is pretty unimaginable!!

Fourth, the current A330 captains have been told they will be flying with new recruits. There will be an influx of low time, low experienced national cadets graduating in June, and they will be forced on to the A330 rather than any other aircraft because recruiting can’t find willing DEFO candidates.

Fifth, the admission that DECs and cadets are being recruited is a tacit admission that the A330 fleet will be retained for longer than previously predicted. There has been no announcement on the replacement type for the market that the A330 serves. With the ever shrinking A330 route network and existing company rules, it would take a new DEC at least 3-4 years to qualify for a A380 transition, and the type of flying and fatigue they would be exposed to during this period is pretty well documented on these forums. Even at the recent management wash-up they said that the aircraft will be retired next year, which begs the question why would you be desperately recruiting such large numbers to both seats of a retiring type???

The last round of DECs are already whining about their decision to join, so in my opinion any DEC who considered joining the A330 fleet would be reconsidering their quality of life decision in well under 6 months. Good luck....

The G.

Machspeed
27th Feb 2015, 10:17
The Guru, excellent post.

One point, any requirement for A380 transitions would be waived, changed and lowered based on need. That's what they are doing now for the upgrade from right to left on the 380 since they can't get the 777 transitions they wanted. Only 26 were taken to the 380 instead of the 60 initial plan. They can't afford to take more from the 777.

nakbin330
27th Feb 2015, 10:41
From one of the talking heads at yesterday's wash up, quote "we are not hiring DECs, we're just advertising for them", unquote.

vfenext
27th Feb 2015, 10:45
Since the 330/340 fleet will be gone in less than 2 years any DEC only has to endure a short amount of time doing night turns before going left seat 380 or 777. Boeing guys have all the current 330 destinations to look forward to so I'd say the offer is not as bad as people seem to think.

The Guru
27th Feb 2015, 10:51
vfenext,

I think you are missing Point No. 5....they won't be gone in 2 years!! :hmm::hmm::hmm:
EK has a history with retiring aircraft. Just look at the past with the A310, and then look at the A345 and B772 as current examples. :suspect::suspect::suspect:

The G.

Mr Good Cat
27th Feb 2015, 11:23
Since the 330/340 fleet will be gone in less than 2 years any DEC only has to endure a short amount of time doing night turns before going left seat 380 or 777. Boeing guys have all the current 330 destinations to look forward to so I'd say the offer is not as bad as people seem to think.

...and that is what the A330 DECs were told in 2012.

I highly doubt the A330s will be retired by 2016. They simply don't have a replacement aircraft for the lower capacity routes. These also tend to be the routes that don't show a demand for the latest hardware and comfort standards so no need to refurbish the interiors.

The cancellation of the A350 suggests this. It will be a while before a decision is made on a replacement, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the A330 NEO come in to fill this void pending an eventual 350/787 order.

Please don't go promising 330 new hires an upgrade to the 380/777 in only 2 years. Broken dreams 'n' all. :sad:

Machspeed
27th Feb 2015, 15:44
From one of the talking heads at yesterday's wash up, quote "we are not hiring DECs, we're just advertising for them", unquote.

New joiners going through the medical yesterday in the elevator at HQ. Said they were told they would upgrade in 4 years or less.

General Dogsbody
27th Feb 2015, 22:22
In Fairness to recruitment I don't think thats what they said, that may be what the new guys Heard. I imagine they said that command's are currently around 4 years and some are getting it at less then that.

Which is True as long as you joined 4 years ago.. they don't tell you that bit.

TATA
28th Feb 2015, 06:10
Well said , DEC does not mean stopping upgrade for FO in fact that is a commercial business at the end of the day . It's overrides persona
Desire, the airline is massive will absorb both DEC and FO to Capt, stop being selfish ,and blaming the management for a thing

ManaAdaSistem
28th Feb 2015, 08:06
In Fairness to recruitment I don't think thats what they said, that may be what the new guys Heard. I imagine they said that command's are currently around 4 years and some are getting it at less then that.

Which is True as long as you joined 4 years ago.. they don't tell you that bit.

But 4 years ago you all said it would take 7-8 years to command. The recruiters are more correct in their predictions than you guys.

TransitCheck
28th Feb 2015, 09:50
Tatas

That's easy to say when you already have your command.....because you worried about your career and progression when you were an FO were you selfish also?

There are 3 things a company should never play with regarding their current employees:

1. Career progression
2. Money (goes hand in hand with career progression)
3. Quality of life (scheduling issues)

Am NOT Sure
28th Feb 2015, 20:31
Thank you TransitCheck

The three items I struggle to tick are ancient history in this region :D

Capn Rex Havoc
1st Mar 2015, 03:39
A330 DECs will help senior 330/340 Captains get released to the A380.

Senior F/Os on the 330/340 are going to the 380 anyway and therefore DEC's are
not going to affect them.
I don't think this round of DEC intakes for the 330 is going to be so disruptive to 330 F/Os.
They have just reduced the the command requirement on the 380 for F/Os from 2500 hrs to 2000 hrs.