LONG LINE TRAINING ! DANGEROUS OR NOT!

[pdoyle]

Hi all
Recently completed longline traing in an R44
Spent most of the time at 200 ft AGL ( altitude 2500ft 80degrees F)
In a high hover at zero forward speed ( 10 kts wind) with a 800llb Steel line
And hook.

Very limited experience on a 44 can anyone ( and I mean,someone who actually knows the answer no speculators please) in the know tell me the procedure if the engine quits :(
Just want to know if your gonna walk limp or need a box to get away from it .
Let's assume no time to dump the line or the hook release is jammed .

Solutions please gentlemen. :ok:

[Helilog56]

Well....I have 23,000 flight hours and over 12,000 of that is on a longline and I'm still here....:}

But seriously....if you are at very low to no airspeed you will be hammering that collective down to save rotor rpm...you will be doing a vertical auto anyways, so I would not worry too much about jettisoning the line.
We used to do verticals in jet rangers anywhere from 30 to 150 ft hovers....I don't know about an R44 only ever tried full on's with some airspeed and a flare....rotor inertia is pretty good. Seems to me if you did it right, you would walk away...but probably would have some bent skid gear. Go find an instructor capable of doing full on verticals.....lots of that done here in Canada.

[Gordy]

Yes you should be able to dump the line. You have a switch right on the cyclic.

If that fails, don't worry, just dump the collective and do a vertical descent and time the pull at the bottom. It has been done.

[helimutt]

if you can dive forward to get a bit of airspeed it may help. ive done autos from 500' hover in an R44 but its all over fairly quickly. I'm not convinced you'd be walking away from a 200' vertical descent auto in an R44, but i'm sure someone will be along to correct me soon enough.

[AAKEE]

Just take a look at the 'Avoid area' in the height/velocity diagramme.
I dont fly R44, men for most helos 200AGL and no or low speed is quite in the middle of the avoid area.

[Flyting]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpHMqvoD4j0

you can skip forward to 1:30...

This is with 2 on board and is no problem.
You've just got to have your thumb out your ass for the entry, and the other on the release switch for the cable.

While in the hover you should try not to let go of anything and be ready all the time for dumping into the entry. At 200ft you can leave the collective on the floor until the bottom of the auto, and then put it in the roof.

Remember, machines are insured...

[Hughes500]

pdoyle

where did you do the training ?
Was it really an 800lb 200ft line ??? Do you not mean 80lbs as I don't think an R44 with 2 on board will pick up 800 lbs ?

[VP-F__]

pdoyle

I know a lot less than nothing about longlining but know enough to understand that it puts you right in the middle of the dead man's curve. Are you telling us that while you did a course in it you diid not get any training in what to do if the engine quits???

[GoodGrief]

Man or mouse ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH03stFao4k

[helimutt]

ask them to now go back and record footage with full power removal. I reckon things may be slightly different. You only need to see the blades at the landing to know they are still under power. Not realistic im afraid. If an engine stops, it stops, which was what was being discussed. (if the engine quits) NOT loses power, allowing a partial power auto. ;)

I still think unless youve trained a lot in that position, it'll catch you out quickly.

[paco]

.....and by the time you've realised the engine has failed you will be on the ground. I'd be very surprised if you were able to think of dumping the line at a typical longline height.

Phil

[EMS R22]

Its called being in the Money curve.....:ok::ok::E

[Helilog56]

Phil is right...time is very, very short. I had a 500 t/r abrasion strip exit on my aircraft while I was on a 150' line many years ago on a steep slope....in a millisecond the t/r gearbox exited also while in a hover at a high power setting.....the violent yaw of course forced the throttle being closed and dumping the collective...never once did jettisoning the line enter the equation.
Upon contact with the sloping ground, the long line became taut enough to prevent the aircraft from rolling or sliding down the hill....I think it saved my ass when I look back on it....!!!??!!

[AAKEE]

ask them to now go back and record footage with full power removal. I reckon things may be slightly different. You only need to see the blades at the landing to know they are still under power. Not realistic im afraid. If an engine stops, it stops, which was what was being discussed. (if the engine quits) NOT loses power, allowing a partial power auto. ;)

I still think unless youve trained a lot in that position, it'll catch you out quickly.

Yes. That "Partial Power failure" looks quite like single engine failure on a older twin helicopter.

I've newer flown the R44. Is inertia about the same as B206?
If I remember it right things start to get rough on the office if hovering above 30 feet and trying an auto from there.

I dont Think 200AGL/zero speed is the best place to be when the only engine quits. The height/velocity diagram is there for a reason. Also, the pilot that did the test flights knew that it will be an auto, he also probably was at least average at doing autos.
That said, some times you need to be there.

[MBJ]

"ask them to now go back and record footage with full power removal. I reckon things may be slightly different. You only need to see the blades at the landing to know they are still under power. Not realistic im afraid. If an engine stops, it stops, which was what was being discussed. (if the engine quits) NOT loses power, allowing a partial power auto."

This looked pretty genuine to me..the needles were split all the way down so no help from the engine even when he pulled collective at the bottom. However, he was pretty light, just him and a fixed camera.

However in answer to your question - I reckon a lot more dangerous than A to B charter, but also probably much better paid and at least for a while, more fun! Stay alert, do try to pickle the line off and don't land on your load!

[Hughes500]

Well I do a couple of hundred hours on a line here in UK. Line is only 50 ft as don't need any more than that ( I know it is strictly not long !)
The thought of dumping the line would be the last thing to do, getting the collective down and praying comes first !!!:uhoh:

[spencer17]

Spent 3/4 (about 14k) of my flying life in the avoid curve, in different environments (mountain, flat, sea, ice) and have flown everything between 30 and 200 feet.
I guess I would not have the time to dump the line.
Maybe, if I'm lucky, the sequence will be:
- surprise :eek:
- action
- changing underwear :uhoh:
- having a big Dram* :E

* for non Scots: Dram = Glass of Malt

[Finnrotor.com]

The thought of dumping the line would be the last thing to do, getting the collective down and praying comes first !!!
I'd skip that praying part and would consider 100% into keeping myself & people under me alive.:)

[whoknows idont]

Helilog56

Well....I have 23,000 flight hours and over 12,000 of that is on a longline and I'm still here....


Sorry for going off topic here but i cant help myself but ask: Can you still walk upright or are you all crooked? Serious back issues? :confused:
Flying all day in this kind of position must be quite agonising after a while? (Maybe aside from the A-Star with the mod with the window in the floor...)

[Helilog56]

Sorry for going off topic here but i cant help myself but ask: Can you still walk upright or are you all crooked? Serious back issues?
Flying all day in this kind of position must be quite agonising after a while? (Maybe aside from the A-Star with the mod with the window in the floor...)

Ovrr the years, I worked hard at keeping physically fit. Even pushing 60, I have no back problems at all. The biggest problem I encountered over the years was an extruded disc in my neck, that once I took a break healed up quite well with only a bit of nerve damage.
I'm on an easier gig these days....working on a fire contract in Istanbul for Erickson. My full time logging days are behind me.....;)

[whoknows idont]

right on :)

[topendtorque]

Mate if you are learning to operate in the below 500 foot area and first have not covered off low level emergencies including engine failure, then find an instructor who will.

Start at 500 feet zero airspeed, get that lever down, cyclic forward and right pedal right in. First - sit back and watch the instructor- and just study the reactions of the AC while your instructor demonstrates a few.

Watch your RRPM it shouldn't go below the bottom red line, learn when to fairly quickly check back your attitude, I.E. 60 knots please sir not six hundred, watch the airspeed increase, (note you will still have a quite nose low attitude therefore when flaring there is much more angular displacement), the RRPM can thus be regathered quickly, study the initial height drop before you are again in normal auto flight. That will give you your dead mans limitation, make sure if you like your line is longer than that height.

Airspeed always takes the P out of pain. as long as there is a spot in front always, but always go for a bit of airspeed.

With practice you will be able to initiate lower although no need in training to go below 200 feet with a bit of headwind.

It is a matter of practising the technique and always looking for a spot, get an appreciation what sort of brush you can go through with your blades and what you can't. At the end of the day the aircraft is replaceable, always try to keep the airframe headed for an area where it will stay upright..

Practice dropping your line each time, if you can't think that quick you shouldn't be there.

Do all that on an open field.

all the best tet.

[pdoyle]

Finally a reply I can work with
See you on the circuit

[Bravo73]

Finally a reply I can work with
See you on the circuit

You're going to need a pretty big circuit:

"Location: Australia"


:}
;)

[topendtorque]

Its called being in the Money curveThis here is an extra good comment. Its explanation is simple. The thing is, any idiot can roar around the country yoiking the machine around in split arse turns and think he is looking flash. However, it is the careful and very smooth pilot who makes the money, brings the machine home without worn out bits and keep the clients happy.

Your jobs will often be to lift cargo in inaccessible terrain in usually difficult ambient conditions, otherwise they would get an aeroplane or a truck to do the same job, so you have to be as efficient as possible.

If you are going to lift the biggest loads with the minimum power in fairly quick turn arounds (that is what you have to do to beat the opposition) then you must be super smooth.

We had in our company years ago many such pilots, but one stood well above the rest. I reckon I could challenge anyone to see if he actually lifted the collective or moved the cyclic on initial lift and translate, but dammit, there he was flying away without, it seemed, any visible effort or movement or even a change in engine tone. He went on to work elsewhere and I think is now with McDermott.

All it takes is conscious thought about wind direction (to use to assist directional control) I.E. lead it along a bit with anti torque pedal, at the same time as doing that to reduce power input with the anti torque pedal apply the power just right to get an effect of flying off a slight pressure build up under the disc and timing it all to just get the beginning of translation before RRPM bleed off, assuming full power usage and don't move any of the controls any more than the fraction of movement required to get it to go.

After practice I will allow you only half an inch of MAP in the R44 to do this.

Your load only needs to lift an inch off the ground and usually cannot be dragged, learn to judge that precisely. Don't jerk it up as you will only fall down again under full load / full power limitations..

By experimentation work out out how much weight you can carry at your Airspeed for minimum power with that power at Max continuous, as long as that is at or below below max all up weight of course. That will be your load weight each time and how you calculate your contracted compliance.

First of all of course, make sure your machine is as smooth as glass in all respects as per your strobex kit, your blades proper clean and polished and nil surplus weight.

It's all good enjoyment and probably the most usual reason for helicopter operations in any developing country.

cheers tet

[pdoyle]

A long shot but do you know chilli last seen in banks town
And thanks for the advise