Trike Accident Yarrawonga

[Xray Tango]

Just witnessed some lovely "formation" trike flying overhead Yarrawonga township,unfortunately with the 4 trikes attempting to land at once one came to grief, Ambulance and Fireman at lore of flight attending,perhaps the newly opened ultralight strip caused the upset landing with the formation all landing at once ?

[Xray Tango]

Wow !! Didn't happen,,,OMG.
CERTAINLY DID, the trike was number 3 in the formation that had just flown over the township, unfortunately Laurie Thompson ( local on airport ) on late final impacted the boundary fence and was trapped until rescuers were able to free him, was taken to hospital and released some time later. Lots of concerned people in town and at the airport as this " formation flying " over the township has raised many concerns based on the amount of trike incidents ( and deaths ) related to this airport.
Can assure the presence of SES, AMBO,FIRE BRIGADE,POLICE, and many concerned onlookers.
Authenticity can be easily obtained by calling Lore of Flight at YYWG, or first on scene was the GA training facility on field.
Not sure why any other poster would try and hide the accident, DENIAL ??

[Pinky the pilot]

I thought that this site was for Professional Pilots.:confused:

And this thread is going nowhere fast!:*

[LeadSled]

RAA seems to be its own worst enemy - allowing people from the shallow end of the gene pool to fly.
Has RAA ever cancelled the licence of anyone?

Sunfish,
You can do better than this, there is nothing in the original post to indicate the trikes were RAOZ registered, and most trikes are registered with the HGFA.

As to the question on cancellation, the answer is yes, and in my opinion, in several cases in which I have been involved, I believe the cancellation was wrong, and CASA would have taken no action in the same circumstance.

Put another way, I think RAA is a bit prone to taking action on a pilot certificate without due cause.

Tootle pip!!

[mcoates]

Wake turbulence ?

When i did my formation endorsement in a trike i couldn't believe the wake turbulence from the trike in front, almost rolled end for end one time.

Got the endorsement and never did it again in the trikes because they are just so upset by wake from leading aircraft and it extends way out to the sides much further than expected, real learning experience.

Looks like the Townsville accident 'may' have been the same thing ??

Formation flying is not easy in aircraft from the bottom end of town.

[VH-Cheer Up]

Why would they be flying in formation anyway? Migrating North for Winter?

Considering the whole point of formation flying has it's foundation in the Air Force, there seems little point in formation flying anything not so categorised.

[Arnold E]

Considering the whole point of formation flying has it's foundation in the Air Force, there seems little point in formation flying anything not so categorised.

One could, perhaps, say the same thing about aerobatics.

[VH-Cheer Up]

One could, perhaps, say the same thing about aerobatics.Aerobatics provides an excellent foundation in airmanship, and entry and recovery from unusual attitudes.

[Capn Bloggs]

Considering the whole point of formation flying has it's foundation in the Air Force, there seems little point in formation flying anything not so categorised.
Where'd you get that from, Cheerup? Form flying can be done in anything that is controllable. You just have to know what you're doing. It is actually a fantastic way to enjoy your flying. It's challenging but great fun. C'mon, cheer up! :ok:

gI4jWYZLeHQ

[VH-Cheer Up]

G'day Bloggsy! I seem to remember being taught about the origins of formation flying in Queen Betty's Flying Club. The idea was to look after your old mate and fly as a single unit.

Encyclopaedia Brittanica seems to agree with me on this: formation flying | aviation | Encyclopedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1403296/formation-flying)

I'm not disputing that non-combat aircraft could conceivably or even enjoyably be flown in formation. I'm just saying that it seems pointless in a trike. Yes, the footage of the A350s is stunning. As was this one, possibly the formation to end all formations: CONCORDE SST : FLYPAST (http://www.concordesst.com/flypast.html) - stunning, hey?

[Ultralights]

an Aeros endorsement will result in a huge increase in your hands on flying skills, if not make you a little heavy handed. a formation Endorsement will take your flying up another level again, making your flying smoother and more precise than you ever thought you could do. especially when in formation with an aircraft with much different performance characteristics. Is there a Formation endorsement available for trikes under the HGFA?


http://pamuva1.smugmug.com/Airplanes/General-Aviation/i-mPjtLDV/0/L/IMG_1053-L.jpg

[mcoates]

Hi there, yes there is a formation endo for Trikes. What happened to the rego numbers on the Savannah looking plane ?


A WM pilot certificate may have additional
endorsements where certificate holders
have undertaken additional training.
These endorsements include:
• Passenger Carrying Endorsement
• Cross Country Endorsement
• Formation Endorsement
• Tugmaster Endorsement
• Radio Operators Endorsement


http://www.hgfa.asn.au/Ops%20Man/Ops%20Manual%20Files/Section7-PilotCertificatesandEndorsements.pdf

[Xray Tango]

Formation flying like all things is all well and good in a controlled environment. Doing such overhead the township at " the lowest legal limit " with a very low hour pilot ( however endorsed ) is only ever going to end in tears, there have been many deaths in trikes already out of Yarrawonga and the writings on the wall again here.
Watch this space.

[kaz3g]

Formation flying like all things is all well and good in a controlled environment. Doing such overhead the township at " the lowest legal limit " with a very low hour pilot ( however endorsed ) is only ever going to end in tears, there have been many deaths in trikes already out of Yarrawonga and the writings on the wall again here.

That's twice you have referred to multiple deaths in trikes at Yarrawonga. This time you state "many".

Care to enlighten us as to the details of the MANY because I say BS!

Kaz

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

http://pamuva1.smugmug.com/Airplanes/General-Aviation/i-mPjtLDV/0/L/IMG_1053-L.jpg

We tried to formate the V-tail with a couple of Savannahs once - didn't work out well! :{

Couldn't get the Bo to fly backwards! :E

Dr :8

[Squawk7700]

That GoPro on the dash of the red one is one of the best cameras you can use for this type of close proximity and low flying.

[rutan around]

Quite correct Squawk 7700:ok: Light weight and virtually litigation proof. :}

[Frank Arouet]

Re the photo. 'birds, what birds' or is that a camera trick. Reminds me of a famous helicopter matter.


Kaz3g. December 2009. Two killed in that incident. Ask the green overalls.

[Squawk7700]

+1 when the green overalls was on the return leg of a ferry flight nearing home when one soul was lost (in the other ship).

The 2 mentioned earlier from memory were due to a lack of experience and qualifications.

http://www.dailyadvertiser.com.au/story/129518/pilot-tells-of-horror-day/

And

http://m.smh.com.au/national/two-brothers-die-in-ultralight-plane-crash-20091206-kd9m.html

[Stikybeke]

Hmmm,,

Some interesting reading in that Daily Advertiser Article, such as:

“If I had looked around two seconds before I did I would have seen what had occurred,” XXXXXX said.
XXXXX said what he did see was Mr Hunt’s plane falling and Mr Hunt not responding at the controls.
“I called out to him to pull up, but there was no response,” said.
...and

XXXXXX paid tribute to Mr Hunt, describing him as a very skilled pilot.
“He was the most experienced member of our formation team,” XXXXX said....and

“He was a very good pilot,” XXXXXX said.
She based that assessment on his skill in following instructions with a formation team overseen by XXXXXX.
“He knew where he needed to be and when he needed to be there,” XXXXXXsaid.

I've XXXX'd the names out so as not to embarrass anyone, you can read the link if you want but it would appear that formation flying in the trike community has been around for a while. As set out through the following link, a simple check of their trike flying club reveals that the CFI has military flight experience, which perhaps with all the best intentions he has been trying to share.

About Us « Yarrawonga Flight Training (http://www.yarrawongaflighttraining.com.au/?page_id=2)

A good skill set with the right aircraft in the right location and at the right altitude but maybe it might be time to seriously review that practice taking into account the prevailing circumstances...

What's that thing about holes and swiss cheese?

Stiky
:ugh:

[Squawk7700]

It was mentioned on here a while back that certain persons may have never seen the inside of a military registered aircraft :cool: I would be interested to hear otherwise so I can rest my mind over it :)

[mcoates]

mmm, Just got a phone call (asking what i knew about the photo posted by Ultralights - which i don't know anything about by the way, i just commented 'where are the rego numbers ?')

Seems someone else higher up the food chain wants to know more about the photo shown here, the missing rego numbers, the location the photo was taken and the pilots of each aircraft.

More information to follow i guess.

[fencehopper]

More uploading of evidence catching someone out. Amazed missing rego numbers not picked up in recent audits. Better start the process again and ground everyone. Or was it all photoshop to protect everyone?

[Super Cecil]

Why jump to the conclusion that pilots are unqualified in pictures? Is it the Savana your on about? If you've been taking notice on a few threads you would know who the aircraft belong to and what Qualifications they have.
What's wrong with shopping rego's out? Law against it?

[kaz3g]

There are more trikes registered in Australia than any other type of aircraft and those that pilot them are able to gain exactly the same sorts of formation flying privileges as any GA pilot.

The two who died in 2009 did so at Cootamundra, not Yarrawonga.

My friend who died during a ferry trip was heading to Yarrawonga when he suffered a major medical crisis. This is a very rare event but GA pilots are not immune from such things, either.

So that makes 3 people, not at Yarrawonga, which statistic doesn't meet either the geographical requirements or the numerical status given to "many".

Oh...I fly GA myself but I think it's particularly bad form to slag other fliers on a public forum routinely visited by those who would close airports and cause problems for their own ends. God knows we have enough enemies of our passion without denigrating one another.

Kaz

[Squawk7700]

Why jump to the conclusion that pilots are unqualified in pictures? Is it the Savana your on about?

It's a funny world that we live in as photo-shopping for innocent purposes as I assume the above photo was, often leads people to think you are hiding.

Unfortunately we live in a world where people like to call up CASA and RA-Aus and stir up trouble when they think that someone is out there having more fun than them so we tend to resort to these things to protect ourselves.

I once posted a picture of my aircraft landed on a private ALA that had a beautiful bitumen runway/driveway complete with a 60kmh sign for traffic entering this commercial property. Because my rego wasn't photo-shopped, of course the obligatory call came from CASA because some peanut from a forum decided that I had landed on a public road :ugh:

[Squawk7700]

The two who died in 2009 did so at Cootamundra, not Yarrawonga.


Kaz - see below:

Two brothers die in ultralight plane | Yarrawonga (http://www.smh.com.au/national/two-brothers-die-in-ultralight-plane-crash-20091206-kd9m.html)


The Cootamundra accident was the married couple that took off from Temora on dusk for Cootamundra and didn't make it.

[kaz3g]

Thank you Sqawk but I note that Barnawatha is closer to Albury than Yarrawonga and that there are several airfields in the vicinity.

Regardless, any death is sad but this doesn't change the intent of my post nor does it amount to the "many" quoted earlier.

The same poster slipped in a comment about "lowest legal limit" but offered nothing to support the assertion which again gives the perception to uninformed readers that the activity was "barely" legal. This crap does none of us any good and we shouldn't give it oxygen in my view.

My clubs, GVAC and AAAA Regularly engage in formation flying...sometimes in old aeroplanes or even amateur built for goodness sake. Perhaps I should just take up knitting 'cause it will be safer?

Kaz

[Ultralights]

wow... who would have thought that hiding a rego number means the activity is illegal....

how many here are endorsed in jumping to conclusions? . seams the same Jumping to conclusions training is valid for all accidents also, from Trikes to RPT.. is there any evidence the trike mentioned earlier was in formation?





edit for Mr Coats... Location was Sydney, all pilots are Instructors, in Both GA and Raaus, all Aero and Formation endorsed..
i eagerly await a phone call

[Frank Arouet]

Kaz. I hate to be pedantic, but for accuracy sake, I was present at Yarrawonga the time and date the aircraft departed that aerodrome on 6th December 2009. It was expected to return to its hangar next door from L of F. It was a black trike. I had just landed there. Having said that, the search centered around Yarrawonga with the L of F business principal, the police, and many others searching until after last light when I left. Exactly where it was found is academic. I understand it hit a stump or tree on landing in poor light. Perhaps others can enlighten me as to the actual final documented cause. This is no suggestion of any impropriety simply a witness testimony.

[j3pipercub]

Ultralights, I thought you knew that jumping to conclusions is a class endorsement provided with your PPRUNE account :-P all in Part 61 MOS... somewhere...

[Ultralights]

i knew the Jumping to Conclusions endo is used for accidents, but for random pictures on the internet is a new use for this endo.. must be somewhere in the new part61.

[asw28-866]

For once I want a 'like' button here on proone! :)

[kaz3g]

It's fine, Frank but now I seem to have lost the point you were making.

From the information provided by you, an aircraft departed the aerodrome and had a fatal accident in a paddock 30 NM away in poor light. The aircraft was hangared next to a FS hangar. There is nothing to suggest it was engaged in formation flying or even that the pilot had any relationship to the FS. Still haven't got to "many".

Not sure where you are taking me?

Kaz

[Frank Arouet]

Your first quote Kaz:


"That's twice you have referred to multiple deaths in trikes at Yarrawonga. This time you state "many". Care to enlighten us as to the details of the MANY because I say BS!"


One: is singular.
Two: is a couple/ a few/pair.
Many: A determiner, (as in many apples). Is a larger number. In this case more than three or four would qualify. I have the dictionary at hand if you want me to elaborate and bore the moderators.
I don't see any reference by you in your quote to suggest anybody limit their comments to only include formation flying or make it off topic.
I think you may have lost the point you were making. But I have been wrong before. (I think it was that time I last admitted I was wrong).
:)

[Aussie Bob]

Well, I have always fancied having a go in a trike. I might just head over to Yarrawonga one of these days and support the local business there. To me they sound like ok operators who need a bit of support :ok:

All the naysayers on this thread can give up driving, its frikken dangerous.

[Dexta]

Well, I have always fancied having a go in a trike.

Apparently insects are the new super food, so not only do you get to have some fun you can eat healthy as well! :)

[JACREW]

Military Flight Experience - I'd like to see that.
You can search but you cannot find?????????

[Stikybeke]

Indirectly says so on the Yarrawonga Website under About us, the link to which was provided earlier on....

...who has flown a wide range of military and civilian aircraft in his flying career..

Perhaps I've interpreted this with the words"Military flight experience"as to mean that if you've flown a wide range of military aircraft then you would have military flight experience but then again if you've flown as a pax in military aircraft then that would also qualify you has having military flight experience. As it's published that he's flown, then it would be fair to assume this was as a pilot. My apologies to all if I've caused any more confusion than my usual attempts. I stand corrected.

Some internet searching and some enquiries made do not reveal anything further than that which means correct, aside from the published information on the website, I cannot find and Squawky's mind cannot rest!!!!

Perhaps someone within this community could enlighten us all further, after all, the overalls are well green and well endorsed so surely it must be true...

Stiky
;)

[The name is Porter]

Stiky & 7700, I've heard him say that he's ex military. But you could be a cook & be ex military. I'll bet if he doesn't post on prune that he'd know what's being posted! Would be easy for him to clear up. Having said all that he's a nice fella & I've only found him helpful on matters aviation.

[Super Cecil]

Typical thread on prune, turns to poo in short time. This one's lacking in Dick bashing so far but give it time I suppose.

If it's such a worry to you why don't you go and ask the bloke your talking about? Too hard? Rather speculate and anonymously character assassinate?

I have worked out of Yarrawonga more than a few times and never had any problem from anybody there including the bloke that some of you whinge about. He would have to fly more hours than anybody that's on prune, is that what some of you are jealous about?

[Ultralights]

i dont get it either, i get a few messages telling me the activities in some pics i post are illegal, and then being told how much of an idiot i am for firstly doing, then posting such stuff. i especially love the part how its going to invite the wrath of CASA.

Its almost like everyone here assumes most pilots only hold a PPL and has no flying experience other than the basic PPL training, and no hours since.. what ever happened to giving benefit of doubt, is it any wonder CASA and the industry is the way it is with so much infighting, allegations based on nothing but a photo, and what appears to be a total lack of understanding of the rules that govern our industry. based on my experiences solely through PPrune, i will assume that everyone on here (i dont know) only holds a PPL, and is scared of anything other than straight and level, even clouds, and learnt absolutely nothing during the air law component of their training..

If someone states they have Military flight experience, then i will believe them, unless something proves otherwise, be it lack of proof through logbook if im going to fly with them, or a flying style that goes against what i have seen of the military side of aviation training and techniques

[The name is Porter]

Faaark!! It's an open bulletin board, anyone can join from an 8 year old gamer to a mentally insane homeless person with internet access. The owners want as many members as possible so they can sell advertising. If anybody takes anything posted on here as serious I reckon you fit into the latter whether you're homeless or not.

Ultralights, when you get the PM's do you laugh them off or worry yourself sick over a possible call from CASA? I would reply to them with a direct contact number to a CASA FOI.

[Ultralights]

always laugh them off, dont even bother replying, i know what im doing is legal and so do those that matter, and thats the end of it.



How did all this come about from the trike accident? is it know that those involved weren't licensed? or the CFI? or is it all just here say?

[Stikybeke]

Don't get me wrong here Super Cecil, I'm not having a dig at the bloke in any way. In fact, I thought my posts were, if anything, supportive of his military experience. His experience (in particular on trikes) and instructional capabilities are well known and highly respected but it's what happens (sometimes) away from the the controlled environment of a watchful eye that turns things pearshape. It would appear from the newspaper articles provided that he's unfortunately had some direct experience in that regard as evidenced by the Temora accident.

XT starts this thread with information regarding a formation Trike flight overhead Yarrawonga and subsequent formation landing along with some concerns raised in this regard. Now maybe he saw this, which would be evidence, as he also provides some information regarding a formation landing on the newly opened ultralight strip and provides some (formation) positional information regarding the pilot involved at time of impact.

If formation (or even just normal) trike flying over the township is occurring and an accident were to happen involving loss of life overhead a closely populated area I'm fairly confident there would be a whole stack of legalities to be addressed at Coronial standard and from there it would probably go down hill fast.

When I stated.....

A good skill set with the right aircraft in the right location and at the right altitude but maybe it might be time to seriously review that practice taking into account the prevailing circumstances...

What's that thing about holes and swiss cheese?

The suggestion that I was making was perhaps if one looks at the collective big picture of why trike accidents occur (which usually have nothing to do with the construction or structural composition of the aircraft) it might be timely, if it hasn't already been done, to review this and if something unsafe, illegal or downright stupid was knowingly or inadvertently occurring, put a stop to it before it gets a whole lot worse. God knows we've all made mistakes and what better way to improve then through survived error and lessons learned.

With regards to the military flight experience, quite some time ago now, I did my aerobatic, spinning and other endorsements with instructors who were primarily all ex RAAF QFI's. I know that UL has had the same experience at the same place and aside from some improvements with aircraft types, nothing much has changed and so like him, I also believe people who tell me they've got military flight experience unless something comes to light to prove otherwise. Now I should point out that I knew about these instructors and their capabilities before I went there as it was marketed in that regard.

I was just speculating that aside from the brief comment on the YFT website (and a post on YouTube) there is nothing further supportive of the military flying anywhere, that's all. Surely his business could only benefit from a marketing standpoint with just a bit more information in this regard. I made these comments with the intention of being a help, not a hindrance.

Stiky

[tail wheel]

How did a thread titled "Trike Accident Yarrawonga" manage to become "Lets' bash another flying school"?

:ugh: