Ornge most likely selling its 139 fleet

[helitime1]

ORNGE looks to sell off high-priced helicopter fleet | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/02/12/ornge-looks-to-sell-off-high-priced-helicopter-fleet.html)

[Stinger10]

Heli1:

McCallum stressed in an interview with the Star that no decisions have been made to sell off the fleet.
McCallum is the ORNGE CEO

It was actually ORNGE who set the medical cabin layout, so they created the cabin issues themselves.

Maryland State Police operate 139s as Air Ambulance and are very happy with them and their 2 patient layout.

[homonculus]

If a public service organisation can squander $500,000 on two motorcycles, it is little wonder they cant spec a helicopter.

It will be interesting to see how the 139 fares elsewhere in the world as an EMS ship. Having recently been round the factory it seems IMHO to be very cramped in the back......

[malabo]

Maryland State Police operate 139s as Air Ambulance and are very happy with them and their 2 patient layout

Flawed comparison. Multi-mission police operation responsible for about 12,000 sq miles vs dedicated EMS operation looking at over 400,000 sq miles. By your logic the EH101 is fine for EMS because Canadian SAR uses it to recover injured persons.

Any EMS service in the US using the AW139?

[Stinger10]

Malabo-
ORNGE is saying they may need smaller, less capable aircraft as a cost cutting measure so your aircraft performance (range) comparison is irrelevant.

“It burns a lot of fuel. It’s a big airplane. It is costly to maintain because of the complexity of the machine, more costly than say a simpler machine,” said Dr. Andrew McCallum, president and CEO of ORNGE.

There was criticism of the medical cabin layout, which was the point of comparison to the MD State Police which DOES use them 80-85% of time for EMS according to MDSP themselves. Google it.

STARS in Canada is ANOTHER EMS 139 operator. :ok:

[tottigol]

ORNGE is another aeromedical program managed by politically appointed doctors.
So what do you expect.

[Bravo73]

If a public service organisation can squander $500,000 on two motorcycles, it is little wonder they cant spec a helicopter.


FYI, the 'choppers' were made by OCC for the 'American Chopper' programme on the Discovery Channel:

Ornge EMS Bike | American Chopper | Discovery (http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/american-chopper/videos/ornge-ems-bike/)

Aside from all of the coverage, I imagine that the bikes were auctioned for more than Ornge paid for them.

[Arcal76]

Malabo is right !!
This aircraft has been a burden for us, maintenance is horrible (talk about low maintenance when you watch the Agusta advertising?????).
The cost, downtime is way to high for an EMS operation.
There is many aircraft available who will provide a good service for us, this is an offshore machine.
Now, with all politics involved, it is gone be funny to see what they will choose. Of course, Agusta is gone come and try to exchange the 139 for the 169. It will look better for them and they could save their faces with this new deal. So, will see....:D

[Helilog56]

The circus act called management should have done their homework well before the purchase in the first place....and wil again make more bone head decisions that come directly off the taxpayers backs. It's okay thought....its Ontario, home of the Maple Laffs.....:}

[homonculus]

Sorry Bravo73 but this is supposed to be a healthcare provider. What are they spending this amount of money on bikes for? Your link tells little, but your posting states Ornge 'paid' which would likely be unlawful where I am. 'circus management' seems about right

[Bravo73]

Sorry Bravo73 but this is supposed to be a healthcare provider. What are they spending this amount of money on bikes for? Your link tells little, but your posting states Ornge 'paid' which would likely be unlawful where I am. 'circus management' seems about right

My 'posting states Ornge 'paid'' because the original article says, "After ORNGE took delivery of the helicopters, AgustaWestland agreed to donate $2.9 million (U.S.) to ORNGE’s charitable foundation. Of that, $500,000 was spent on two custom-made motorcycles."

The rest is just supposition on my part. After watching an awful lot of edisodes of American Chopper, the common MO for these charities would be to auction the bikes. The charity would then get back a lot more than they paid ie, it is a fundraising exercise. Add to that the hour's worth of coverage that the charity receives on the Discovery Channel and it's actually bit of a no-brainer.

I just wouldn't be so quick to condemn, without knowing both sides of the story.

[Ian Corrigible]

Bravo,

The status of the choppers was covered extensively in the 2011-12 investigations, covered in the previous thread (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/472485-blue-times-ornge.html). One was retained by ORNGE at its HQ ("as auditors move in and out of the ORNGE building they pass a beautiful orange motorcycle, one of two “ORNGE choppers” custom built by Orange County Choppers for the US television show, American Chopper" (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/01/16/ontario_taxpayers_paid_part_of_ornge_spending_spree.html)), while the second was "in storage in the New York state."

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/canada/2012/01/16/ontario_taxpayers_paid_part_of_ornge_spending_spree/orngechopper.jpeg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpeg

The quoted cost of the two bikes rose from $80-100,000 (http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/committee-proceedings/committee_transcripts_details.do?Date=2012-04-18&ParlCommID=8961&BillID=&Business=Special+report%2C+Auditor+General%3A+Ornge+Air+Ambu lance+and+Related+Services&locale=en&DocumentID=26218) (claimed by AW's Lou Bartolotta) to $150,000 (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/03/21/ornge_taxpayer_funds_increased_while_need_for_air_ambulance_ decreased.html) (claimed by ORNGE) to the actual figure of $500,000 discovered by the auditor.

The auditor...found that AgustaWestland had struck a deal to give one of ORNGE’s charities $2.9 million over several years. The only funds that flowed were $500,000, which was used to build two “ORNGE Choppers,” motorcycles Mazza wanted for fundraising events. Previously, ORNGE has said the choppers cost just $150,000 in total.

One of the two choppers recently sold for $30,000 and ORNGE will receive that money back. McCarter noted that much of the other wasted money will never be recovered. (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/03/21/ornge_taxpayer_funds_increased_while_need_for_air_ambulance_ decreased.html)
I/C

[Bravo73]

Ah, fair enough. That all sounds pretty damning.






(Thank gawd for my 'The rest is just supposition on my part' caveat...) :O

[Mark Six]

The AW139 has been operated very successfully as a dedicated EMS machine by the Queensland government and CHC under contract to the NSW government for 7 years or so. So successfully in fact that the latest Victorian government EMS tender will require most of the 412's to be replaced by 139's and the new NSW contract requires MORE 139's.

[havick]

I agree with Marksix. Whilst I'm a B412 driver and am biased towards Bell products, the rest of the world seems to operate the 139 perfectly fine and as Marksix points out, it is so successful in fact in some regions that it is the preferred type.

[Flyting]

Mark Six.... here's an opportunity for you to make a few bucks commision... Put NSW in contact with Ornge..... heli's going cheap - need new homes...

:}

[Random Old Guy]

There are currently 2 S76a models of theirs for sale on the federal surplus site.

And it is ORNGE not ORANGE, the A was for Accountablity, so they took it out

[Mark Six]

Toll, Australian Helicopters and Westpac Lifesaver won the EMS tenders and presumably are all in the process of acquiring 139's. Having lost the NSW contract (and Victorian), the incumbent (CHC) may have a few machines coming up for sale.

[havick]

Marksix, you also forgot to mention the Darwin EMS 139, as well as Careflight QLD recently getting a contract for several 139's in southern QLD.

[Lychee]

As from what I can make out the new management team are putting Accountability back into this operation.

[Arcal76]

Ho yes, I love this one....
Where we are now is simple: we have to reduce rotor-wing hours because the helicopter is to expensive:ugh: 50% of the EMS system do not want to use Ornge:mad:.... so, it is great:D

[tottigol]

Arcal, Why is it that, is ORNGE charging the other EMS agencies, or are other reliability issues not connected with the 139?

[noooby]

Arcal, are you aware that operators that are operating the 76 and 139 side by side (granted, C+/C++, not straight A model 76's) are saying that the DOC's are so close to being the same that it isn't even worth considering.

Saying that the 139 is more expensive than the 76 to operate (I believe that is what you are saying??) is not quite accurate. Just about anything is more expensive to operate than a 30 year old 76A. Those things have paid for themselves many times over!

A lot of lost flying time (downtime equates to higher DOC's per flying hour) is a factor of (mis) management at this particular company, so I have been told.

I firmly believe that if the 139 was significantly more expensive to operate than it's competitors, AW wouldn't be selling as many of them as they are, and they still seem to be selling them as fast as they can make them!

[fly911]

ORNGE arriving at HELI-EXPO Orlando. Probably won't see it this year.
CFHRFfqOtBE

[Margins]

Australian Helicopters’ Managing Director, John Boag, says “the internal dimensions of the AW139 makes them the best choice for primary and secondary EMS applications and the perfect choice for their contract with Ambulance Victoria. The AW139 are faster, can travel longer distances without refueling and utilize state-of-the-art avionic technology. We look forward to our partnership with AgustaWestland in supplying the six new helicopters to assist us to support the Victorian community through Ambulance Victoria and the Victorian Government over the next decade.”
The AW139 is a new generation helicopter that sets new standards of safety, comfort and performance in the intermediate twin-engine helicopter market. Designed with inherent multi-role capability and flexibility of operation, the AW139 has the most spacious cabin and the best power reserve of any helicopter in its class. The internal dimensions of the AW139’s roomy unobstructed cabin make it an ideal choice for EMS applications. The flat floor, large cabin doors and unobstructed cabin provide easy and quick access for stretchers and survivors. The new technology Honeywell Primus Epic® fully integrated avionics package, a 4-axis digital AFCS and large flat panel colour displays in the cockpit, reduce pilot workload and allow the crew to concentrate on the demanding missions they are often tasked to perform.

[noooby]

Margins, do you know anything about the Aussie EMS contracts? I see that there are two operators getting 139's, Toll and Vic Ambulance.

Are they the same? Toll is for 8 and Vic for 6, but is this just the same contract, or are there actually 14 more 139 EMS ships on the way to Oz?

[Diabloblizzard]

Noooby, there is actually :

6 aw139 going to Victoria
8 aw139 going to Toll for Southern NSW
4 aw139 going to Westpac in newcastle for Northern nsw
Unknown amount going to careflight in qld.

So there's atleast 18 confirmed and however many careflight are getting

[John Eacott]

Margins, do you know anything about the Aussie EMS contracts? I see that there are two operators getting 139's, Toll and Vic Ambulance.

Are they the same? Toll is for 8 and Vic for 6, but is this just the same contract, or are there actually 14 more 139 EMS ships on the way to Oz?

More on the Air Ambulance Victoria contract here: Victoria (Australia) HEMS Contract (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/531130-victoria-australia-hems-contract.html).

[noooby]

Crikey that is a lot of EMS 139's heading down that way!!

[John Eacott]

Crikey that is a lot of EMS 139's heading down that way!!

There are currently 16 AW139s on the Australian register.

Careflight and Australian Helicopters, 1 each, EMS
Bristow Helicopters, 4 (offshore)
Queensland State Government, 3 EMS/SAR
Lloyd Helicopters/CHC, 7 but not sure of how many are EMS in NSW

[Mark Six]

John,
There are 3 CHC EMS 139's in NSW (1 in Bankstown, 1 in Wollongong and 1 spare), plus 4 offshore in Karratha.

[cloudmac]

You have to realise that this is not an aviation company but a political animal so of course it costs them more to operate. They are putting new medical interiors in at about 1 mill each so I dont think that they are serious about selling so these kind of press releases are just ways to say to the govt that were looking after the operation and maybe get more money out of them:E

[malabo]

RFP.ca: ORNGE RFPs, Bids, Tenders (http://www.rfp.ca/organization/ORNGE)

What does this mean? Privatization? Maybe they had a look at the Australia model and liked what they saw.

[tottigol]

Hopefully they did not look into the American model or they'll soon be flying 206L-1s on a stretcher and O2 supply.