EASA working Single Pilot Ops until 65

[Brilliant Stuff]

Gents,

We have been told under EASA we will be able to fly single pilot ops public transport until the grand old age of 65.

Am surprised this has n't been mentioned here or did I miss something?

[Fortyodd2]

Assuming this isn't April 1st - Who told you?

[Brilliant Stuff]

Our esteemed Training Captain, he wouldn't joke about something this serious.

[Pete O'Tewbe]

Can your esteemed Training Captain provide a supporting reference?

[Hughes500]

And I was looking forward to getting out at 60 !!!

[tistisnot]

And you still can - if you wish to?!!

[hueyracer]

No commercial flying over the age of 60 as single pilot ..



FCL.065 Curtailment of privileges of licence holders aged 60 years or more

(a) Age 60–64. The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 60 years shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations except:
(1) as a member of a multi*pilot crew; and,
(2) provided that such holder is the only pilot in the flight crew who has attained age 60.

(b) Age 65. The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 65 years shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations.


Definition of "Commercial Air Transport":
„Commercial air transport operation“:
An aircraft operation involving the transport of passengers, cargo or mail for remuneration or hire. (ICAO Annex 6, Definitions).


You can still do:

-sightseeing trips
-Dropping parachutes
-Ferry flights
-maintenance flights
-fire fighting
-SAR flights
-sling load etc…(everything not considered "CAT", so you can do Aerial work and non-CAT or General Aviation flights)…

Unfortunately, i only got this document in German….
http://www.svfb.ch/media/45-00_abgrenzungsmatrixcat_071204_lek.pdf

[spencer17]

@Brill: heard the same rumor.
If so :ok:, I'm looking forward to it.

Maybe same chief pilot ?

[Ready2Fly]

I was told, the CAA UK would consider only scheduled flights as commercial air transport with regards to FCL.065 but i could not find any reference on their website (and as scheduled flights are usually operated MP this does not make much sense anyway). :hmm:

[skadi]

I was told, the CAA UK would consider only scheduled flights as commercial air transport with regards to FCL.065 but i could not find any reference on their website (and as scheduled flights are usually operated MP this does not make much sense anyway). :hmm:So that would exclude HEMS in GB from Rule60? Would be nice but should also be valid for the rest of EASA land!

skadi

[Ready2Fly]

Expected to come into force on 8th April 2015
2.6
Maximum age of pilots for commercial balloon and sailplane flights - FCL.065
With effect from 8 April 2015, Part-FCL will be amended so that the age above which pilots holding Balloon Pilot Licences (BPL) or Sailplane Pilot Licences (SPL) are prohibited from conducting commercial air transport flights will be increased from 65 to 70 years. Note that, as described in paragraph 2.2 above, the use of Part-FCL licences to fly EASA balloons and sailplanes will become mandatory on 8 April 2018.

Source: Civil Aviation Authority INFORMATION NOTICE Number: IN–2014/188 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2014188.pdf)

[hueyracer]

Am i the only one failing to see the connection here?

commercial balloon and sailplane flights

Rotorheads


:=

[Fortyodd2]

Come on Brill, you started this thread - where is the proof?
Can your esteemed training captain not provide a link to something official?
This matter has huge implications for many who use this site and all of my colleagues so some clarification would be appreciated.

[Ready2Fly]

@hueyracer
Exactly my point. Probably only a rumour re/ helicopters. Likewise the rumour I mentioned concerning CAT meaning scheduled flights only under FCL.065

The only official document (I found) is what I quoted.

[hueyracer]

Not so much interpretation in EASA:


What is the difference between 'commercial operation' and 'commercial air transport (CAT) operation'?
Reference: Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 ('the Basic Regulation'), Regulation (EU) No 965/2012 on Air Operations

The term 'commercial operation' is defined in Article 3 of the Basic Regulation as follows:

'Commercial operation' shall mean any operation of an aircraft, in return for remuneration or other valuable consideration, which is available to the public or, when not made available to the public, which is performed under a contract between an operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator.

The term 'commercial air transport (CAT) operation' is defined in Article 2 of Regulation (EU) No 965/2012 as follows:

'Commercial air transport (CAT) operation' means an aircraft operation to transport passengers, cargo or mail for remuneration or other valuable consideration.

The two definitions make it clear that 'commercial operations' include 'CAT operations'.

Flight Standards | EASA (http://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agency/faqs/flight-standards)

So if you´re not flying cargo or pax….you´re safe……which means ferry flights, maintenance flights….observation flights, power line checks…..

The link in german i posted above states that-as far as German CAA is concerned-spraying and other "cargo"-like flights are exempt as well…..i haven´t found an english page stating this...

[Sloppy Link]

........Police Operations are State Activity and are exempt........

[Ready2Fly]

The link in german i posted above states that-as far as German CAA is concerned-spraying and other "cargo"-like flights are exempt as well…..i haven´t found an english page stating this...

The document is in german but as it refers to Art. 100 LFV, it is probably from FOCA (Swiss CAA).

There are definitely discussions going on for a long time why, a pilot should not be allowed to fly CAT SP as long as he seems to be fit, i.e. holding a class I medical.

My personal point of view is: There will be an amendment by 8 April 2015. Imagine what happens if HEMS operators point out that they can not guarantee service after that date without an amendment to FCL.065 or an exemption (according to article 14 (4) of regulation EU 216/2008). And, as such an exemption can not be limited to HEMS only (where is the difference to other CAT operations...), this issue will be solved for CAT in general.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Sorry, we have been looking for the reference today but in the limited time haven't found reference.

We know this was in an official letter.


BHAB has been mentioned.


Won't be in the office for a week now after which I shall ask said esteemed captain to elaborate.


I thought he can't be the only one who knows this hence my thread on here.

[handysnaks]

Nerd mode on
brill, it hasn't been BHAB for a while now, it is the BHA
Nerd mode off!

Sloppy, in ICAO and EASA rules Police Operations are State Activity. The ANO classifies UK police aviation as a public transport operation.

[misterbonkers]

And the ANO can be amended...

[handysnaks]

....as it has been on many occasions. As it stands at the moment, UK police aviation is PT������

[Thomas coupling]

And the reason for that is because the cops that are carried are Fee Paying. Their constabularies pay for the use of said choppers even if they own it themselves. The TFO's are public transport categorised.

If what Brill says is true it will be an enormous step change in the right direction and people like Uncle Ian's efforts may not have been in vain.
It will safeguard the employ of many current practitioners - whose expertise will benefit the industry. [I know someone will now say it will delay new entries coming on line].
You'd better be sure about making such an enormous OP Brill - or standby to lose all credibility :rolleyes:

[hueyracer]

The question is-how can they (aka the government or EASA) justify this rule with EU law, where everyone has to be treated equally when it comes to religion, race, or age?

And if it is "the law"-why doesn´t the government has to pay for the pilots that cannot continue working from the age of 60 until they reach retirement age?

[Camp Freddie]

NPA 2014-29 (A) issued on the 17-12-14 and open for comments until 17-3-15.

on page 36 of 253 it has the exact same wording as hueyracer quoted in post #7.

I think someone somewhere has read "shall not" backwards, unfortunately.

[QTG]

Don't get too carried away boys. Extract from a recent email sent by a very reliable source at the CAA:

"For example, Germany has a 12 month exemption in force against the age 60 limit for single pilot mountain rescue helicopter operations to allow time for an operator to recruit younger pilots..............
This is a solution to a particular transition issue and using an exemption in this way is consistent with the regulations."

[allwornout]

How can you do sightseeing, SAR, and parachuting dropping all with no pax on board? These are all excluded as well over 60. All you're left with is ferry, maintenance, and long-lining.

[skadi]

"For example, Germany has a 12 month exemption in force against the age 60 limit for single pilot mountain rescue helicopter operations to allow time for an operator to recruit younger pilots..............
This is a solution to a particular transition issue and using an exemption in this way is consistent with the regulations."

delete "mountain" in the sentence above, the excemption was granted for the German HEMS operators til 9.April 2016, together with additional mandatory medical examinations.
Heard rumours, that the austrian HEMS operators will get another 3 years of excemption, also with additional medical examinations for the older chaps.

skadi

[skadi]

How can you do sightseeing, SAR, and parachuting dropping all with no pax on board? These are all excluded as well over 60. All you're left with is ferry, maintenance, and long-lining.

Because its not classified as Commercial Air Transport!

skadi

[tu154]

Since when has sight seeing/tours not been public transport in EASA land?

[hueyracer]

the excemption was granted for the German HEMS operators til 9.April 2016

Then the German HEMS operators are liars! (when saying they cannot get qualified pilots)…


I (along with several other pilots) have been applying since 2007….more than just exceeding their requirements….
ATPL, IR, MEIR, FI, TRI, FE, TRE, HEMS experience, SAR, hoist, NVG-you name it……together with more than 4000 hours…

You know what i got?
A reply saying "Thanks for your application, but we´re currently not recruiting!"…….:ugh:

[Ready2Fly]

Then the German HEMS operators are liars! (when saying they cannot get qualified pilots)…


[Sarcasm ON]
Who in this business is not (as long as it suits)?
[Sarcasm OFF]

:suspect:

The FOCA in Switzerland applied for an exemption according to article 14 of the basic regulation which was granted by EASA.

The LBA in Germany did also apply for an exemption but it seems they did not do their homework as good as FOCA. The exemption was not granted. However, EASA asked the LBA for a correction of the application. EASA even advised the LBA to do a copy/paste of the swiss application which would then result in an approval of such an exemption giving many pilots the opportunity to continue their job.

The LBA - in Person Mr. Uwe Dehning, Head of Department L - decided not to do so.

We know the outcome.

:ugh:

If this business as a whole had a lobby, we would not even discuss this issue. For the time being, HEMS operators in germany bought some time. Imagine what happens if you had a (admittedly polemical) headline in the SUN like "Air rescue hangs in the balance" and HEMS operators in Europe decided to announce to cease operation just for a week (i know there are most likely implications due to breach of contract) to bring some attention to this subject. The annoucement alone would give politicians some food for thought.

[handysnaks]

I thought I would re-invigorate this thread after I noticed this little snippet in the latest CAA Information Notice regarding latest EASA developments (2015-039 if you're interested)!



v) Commission Decision on Article 14.4 refusing permission to Germany to apply exemptions from certain substantive requirements laid down in Commission Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 – Discussion and vote
The Commission plans to use Article 14.5 to refuse permission to Germany to allow HEMS operations with single pilots aged over 60. Germany has revoked the exemption with effect from 1st May and replaced it with a new exemption with more robust mitigation measures.

[Fareastdriver]

You should get around a bit. My EASA ATPL(H) public transport validity expired when I was 65. So I went to Australia and got an Oz ATPL(H) when I was 65 and a bit. Then China said I had to get a Chinese licence so I got a Chinese ATPL(H) when I was 66. I retired shortly before my 69th birthday but only because a job in Australia didn't materialise.

It must be a sod working in the EU.

[handysnaks]

Cheek! i do get around. Only this week I've been as far as Stafford in one direction and Benson in the other! Harrumph😀😉 and I've a few years to go yet until 60😗

[jymil]

What happened to the provision of JAR OPS 3 stating it is not applicable to mil, customs, police, SAR, parachute, fire fighting and aerial work flights ? Has this not been taken over into EU regulations ?

Another option for the 60+ pilots is flight instruction, since this is not even considered as commercial flight.

[Hughes500]

Hate to tell you guys that aerial work will now require an AOC, now what type EASA hasn't stated, only come about in the past couple of weeks. I have no idea if that will effect pilot age as it will be part of SPO which is due in 2017, but .......

[handysnaks]

Hello Hughes.
I suspect it won't affect aerial work. The age 60single pilot rule is specific to Public Transport Ops, not helicopter flying generally. There is some logic there, I just haven't quite determined where it is!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

My aerial work/ part.SPO employer has had an AOC for a while now. Works well, CAA FOI appears content with what he sees and I'm certainly delighted that I get to actually operate (ie hands on controls for up to 5 hours/day, as opposed to watching a student do it (arguably better than I'll ever be able)). You can see my age from the ever-updating box on the left-hand side; age 60 is no barrier in this job. Fortunately for me, Handy, a complete inability to understand logic also fails to hold me back! (I do agree with you, though)

[Dennis Kenyon]

Logic ... in aviation?

As a few pps will know, I'm still flying around the country and a few overseas areas ... Europe, Africa and USA ... on sales demonstrations, flying instruction and flying display work. Last month I qualified for the Class One OAP medical and plan to participate in the next WHC in August.

BUT ... I've been banned from public transport flying now for the last 23 years! I often wonder who should reimburse me for 23 years of lost income. I know ... heaven helps those etc. OAPs unite I say! Dennis K.

[Hot and Hi]

Given that we have recurring flight and medical tests to check the suitability of a pilot for a given task, the introduction of age as an overriding factor smacks of discrimination.

Discrimination based on age (alone), so-called "agism", is unlawful in most countries, and any law that enshrines such discrimination could be challenged in the Constitutional Court.

[md 600 driver]

Dennis
Me and Nige are also going to poland were taking the gazelle just going though as spectators

See you there if not before
Steve

[Dennis Kenyon]

Well it has been ... our dear Uncle Ian did just that a few years ago. I attended several days of the hearing in Kingsway where a solo Ian put forward a truly impressive case backed by enough supporting and sensible facts to fill the room. Yet the Industrial Tribunal stuck their head in the sand for a few months until someone higher up told them to reject Ian's case .... anyone got a cool fifty grand to take the case on at the highest level. Dennis K.

[Dennis Kenyon]

Somehow my post has got itself slotted in the wrong thread. can the Mods fix? Please.


Which thread do you want it in, Dennis?

Splot

[Chris66]

Dennis if you are serious about a challenge, I suggest that the pilot community could pull together & raise the £50k legal fee cost.

I pledge £500, assuming you do the same - we now need 98 others to commit.

[stereojet]

Anyone know why it's taking CAA till 2017 to fall in line with rest of Europe regarding classification of Aerial Work?

My understanding is that elsewhere, everything apart from passenger charter falls into AW rather than CAT.
Once that's in place, filming, photography, survey etc can be flown AW, even with employees of film company/surveyor/utilities or whatever on board.
That would put a smile on my wrinkly face.
Strange that it's taking them so long to sign it off, when I understand that some of the companies have had the new AW manual ready for approval since last year.

Is 65 the upper age limit then, or is it as long as a valid medical is held?

[skadi]

The age limit for all commercial flying will remain 65 in EASA land.

everything apart from passenger charter falls into AW rather than CAT.

HEMS , apart from SAR, also is CAT, even if the patients dont charter the helicopter :ugh:

skadi

[AK355]

I pledge £500, assuming you do the same - we now need 98 others to commit.

Count me in!

3 in, 97 more to find...

[skadi]

:(:(:( zero points for Grat Britain :E

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2015039.pdf

2.1 v

skadi

[Pete O'Tewbe]

Why "zero points for Grat (sic) Britain"?

2.1 v of the IN is merely stating what the Commission has done, not the UK CAA.

[skadi]

Why "zero points for Grat (sic) Britain"?

2.1 v of the IN is merely stating what the Commission has done, not the UK CAA.

Oh sorry, I regret my statement. I misunderstood that part.

skadi