Two down near Townsville

[spinex]

Search under way for pair of ultralight aircraft that disappeared after taking off in Townsville (http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/search-under-way-for-pair-of-ultralight-aircraft-that-disappeared-after-taking-off-in-townsville/story-fnii5v6w-1227215451008)

Just received the link above via email, nasty!

[Lookleft]

Not good news according to the ABC:

Two pilots killed in crash of two planes near Townsville in north Queensland - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-11/two-pilots-killed-in-crash-of-two-planes-in-north-queensland/6084780)

[mcoates]

MEDIA RELEASE

Recreational Aviation Australia

For immediate release

CEO Michael Linke said “Recreational Aviation Australia is saddened to learn of a double fatality in two aircraft registered with Recreational Aviation Australia and will be assisting Queensland police during the investigation. We have dispatched two investigators to the scene who will arrive today and assist police.

“Our thoughts go out to the pilot’s families at this very difficult time.

“We cannot speculate at this stage as to the cause of the accident, we will continue to work with police and release a report in due course.”

“Recreational Aviation Australia currently administers over 3,200 aircraft and has over 10,000 members. We were founded on a principle of safe, accessible, fun and enjoyable aviation. The two aircraft involved in the accident are factory built, certified aircraft.


“The two aircraft involved, a Drifter and a Thruster have been significant aircraft in our organisations development and have, for a long period of time, been the backbone of our training fleet with a history of safe operations.”

“In 2014 almost 5,200 hours and over 13,000 landings were flown in this type of aircraft across the country.”

“These particular aircraft were used for recreational private flying only.”

Ends

Media Enquiries: Michael Linke 0419 123 234

[onetrack]

It looks like powerlines caught them both out. The media is saying one of the victims is a 30,000hr Helicopter pilot, and a Vietnam Veteran.
However, I can find no record of either of the names given, as being a Vietnam Vet.

[Ultralights]

2 aircraft, in the same area, at about the same time...

very unusual. :confused:

[FNQTech]

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/two-dead-after-two-ultralight-aircraft-crash-after-taking-off-in-townsville/story-fnj90t7b-1227215451008

A fairly severe squall came through yesterday mid afternoon so could have affected visibility

[mickjoebill]

2 aircraft, in the same area, at about the same time...
very unusual.

Reports indicate they took off together.

Mickjoebill

[NZFlyingKiwi]

The photo seems to suggest a fairly substantial part of the blue aircraft (wing?) is some distance away. Mid-air collision? Or flying in close proximity/formation and meeting the same set of powerlines? Either way very unfortunate. :(

[Ultralights]

it looks from the photos, the wing of 1 aircraft is reasonably close to the wreckage of the red aircraft. and i cant see a powerline in the image. thats not to say there isnt one there.

[onetrack]

The aircraft wreckage positions appear to be about 50 or 60 metres apart, and around the same distance from the powerlines as the height of the HT power pylons.
The news video (best viewed, full screen) has a paramedic saying they had a MAC - but there doesn't appear to be the paint scrapes on the wreckage that one would potentially expect in a MAC.
I would hazard an opinion at this stage, that the powerline collision scenario is the likely cause.
All in all, a very sad event that shows even the most experienced can come to grief.

The news is constantly repeating that Robin Friend was a chopper pilot in 'Nam, but he's not listed on the Australian Vietnam Honour Roll, which I find rather strange.

I guess there could be about three or four reasons for the lack of information on Robin Friends helicopter career in Vietnam;

1. He was originally American and served in the US forces ..
2. He operated as a chopper pilot in the "Vietnam War era" - but not in a military duty ..
3. He has been missed in the compilation of the Australian Vietnam Veteran Roll of Honour (highly unlikely) ..
4. He has elected to have any reference to his service withdrawn from the Roll (possible) ..

North Queensland ultralight crash victims Errol Young and Robin Friend were true gentleman (http://www.watoday.com.au/queensland/north-queensland-ultralight-crash-victims-errol-young-and-robin-friend-were-true-gentleman-20150211-13c00h.html)

John Eacott might be able to shed some light?

[solowflyer]

There are quite a few HT power lines in that area and it was quite windy and lumpy down low yesterday morning. If there was a collision with a line one has to ask WTF they where they doing down there as it would of been rough as guts in those little things at that height.

[Jabawocky]

Not real close to power lines, maybe mid air collision? :(

[Lookleft]

Ultralights is possibly psychic:

Fatal double ultralight plane crash in north Queensland very unusual, investigators say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-12/fatal-double-ultralight-plane-crash-very-unusual-investigators/6087914)

Who does the investigations for the RAA?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I don't think you have to be Einstein to figure this one out!

Dr

[Fantome]

Donnington Airpark owner Ray Smith broke down as he recalled both men, saying they would be missed.
"You couldn't get better fellas, they were real gentlemen," he said.
"They were great characters, believe you me.
"Robin I'd known for about 20 years, Errol I'd known about eight years."
The grief is palpable.

The demise of highly experienced flyers is often, for that, all the more perplexing

(Another gentleman to the core, still grieved by many, family and beyond - Graham White last year, in the sea near Moruya.)

[Squawk7700]

Dr, I'm picking up what you are putting down. There is only one way to hit a powerline and that is to fly into it.

Edit; however the word on the street is that it was a MAC.

[Jabawocky]

squawkie

I would put a bet on it.

[Deaf]

Dr, I'm picking up what you are putting down. There is only one way to hit a powerline and that is to fly into it.

Edit; however the word on the street is that it was a MAC.

Given:

Low level - low inertia aircraft - turbulent conditions - moderately close formation - powerlines

Could be both.

Edited to add:

Sequence doesn't alter the final result

[Fantome]

Sequence doesn't alter the final result

Maybe not with this one. However, there are many cases where getting the sequence right is of the greatest importance when figuring out the time line from start to finish.

(Reading recent posts on other threads, you cannot help but come to the conclusion that ATSB have been found deficient more than once in this regard.)

[Lookleft]

Have another look at the link to the ABC Fantome, no mention of ATSB involvement. That's why I asked the question, who does the RAA use for their accident investigations?

[Fantome]

STOP IT LEFTIE .. . YOU WILL GO BLIND

(my comment about ATSB is valid . .. even if not precisely in accordance with your rigorous approach to the avoidance of digression. One Darren Barnfield investigated the G White fatality. He is probably on this one.)

from the RAA facebook page July last year -

The Association is saddened to report two New South Wales members were fatally injured yesterday (6th July 2014) while flying a Morgan Sierra from Moruya airfield on the NSW South Coast.
Recreational Aviation Australia immediately dispatched a trained Accident Consultant, Technical Manager Darren Barnfield, to assist with investigating the accident’s possible cause(s). This investigation is hampered by the fact that the aircraft crashed into the ocean, with attempts to retrieve the wreckage commencing this morning by police.
Findings will be made available once the Coroner’s report is formally released.
Members will be advised if any immediate safety concerns are determined as a result of preliminary investigations.
We confirm one of the pilots was a well-known and highly respected Instructor and Pilot Examiner who also held GA Instructor qualifications, and the flight was conducted for the purposes of completing the pilot’s Biennial Flight Review in the owners’ own aircraft.

[Fantome]

http://www.techdigest.tv//youtube-apology-order.jpg (http://www.techdigest.tv/2008/06/judge_orders_yo.html)

[fencehopper]

The RAAus had two of their own in house investigators on site by the afternoon the following day. They are investigating with local police.
Power lines don't seem to be a factor. If it was a weather factor that caused both aircraft to break up in flight then it was a huge one. I doubt if this was the case. The Drifter was a two seater and the Thruster was either a 83,84 or 85 single seat model (very good chance i built it). They are all pretty much the same now as all have been upgraded engine and airframe wise. have never known either type to completely detach a wing before or seen such complete destruction on a Thruster. My personal view is mid air a tangle and a long fall almost vertical. But lets see what the coroner says.
FH

[onetrack]

The formation the pair were flying in would be of interest. If they were flying at the same height (quite likely), and both spotted the powerlines almost simultaneously - and the bloke on the right banked left, and the bloke on the left banked right, whilst both were distracted by concentrating on the power lines ... then that would be a possible MAC scenario.

However, it does seem strange that two highly-experienced older blokes would each be unaware of his mates position.

Then again, I notice that the older people get, the more they tend to get fixated on a single looming problem, and neglect awareness of accompanying developing situations, that are obvious to younger people.

[fencehopper]

Very good chance they were familiar with the area and knew the hazards locations. Had they been in formation or just in 'accompaniment' and lost sight of each other?

[Capt Casper]

"Then again, I notice that the older people get, the more they tend to get fixated on a single looming problem, and neglect awareness of accompanying developing situations, that are obvious to younger people."

How did you get to notice that????

[onetrack]

My own advancing age provided some assistance with that observation. :)

However, research by neuroscientists has proved, this is a fact - the older you get, the more you tend to become single-minded when presented with multiple tasks, and the lower your ability to multi-task - as compared to when you were much younger.

Seniors find multi-tasking harder than younger adults (http://seniorliving.about.com/od/keepyourmindshar1/a/Multitasking-And-Seniors-Seniors-Find-Multitasking-Harder-Than-Younger-Adults.htm)

[Arnold E]

However, research by neuroscientists has proved, this is a fact - the older you get, the more you tend to become single-minded when presented with multiple tasks, and the lower your ability to multi-task - as compared to when you were much younger.

Yeah, lets take away the licences of all us folks over,.... how old?, lets say, what? 55? seems fair to you young blokes.:ugh:

[Lookleft]

The problem is not that it gets harder to multi-task as we get older its the failure to accept that it is harder. Anecdotaly I would have to agree with the research. I have watched my parents age and am now watching my in-laws go through the same process and the issues are the same. Of course there will be variations between individuals but generally it is an accurate assessment. I once watched a Captain fixate on a slip of paper that should have been handed back to the groundstaff but the doors were closed and the stairs removed. By pressing the call bell three times to get someone to contact the flight crew he put the cabin on edge as three double chimes was also the emergency signal. Like I said anecdotal evidence but he wasn't the only older (over 60) Captain I saw do something similar. BTW I am rapidly approaching the same demographic and understand that my cognitive abilities are changing.

[onetrack]

Arnold - Every system of merit, as regards licencing, where necessary skills are declining with age, is based on testing and assessment, not a set age.

I know people in their late 50's who are already doddery in their thinking and responses - and I know people of over 80 who are sharp as tacks.
If intensive control skills are required to be at a minimum set level - for everyones safety - then assessment of the individuals abilities and responses is the only way to go.

The basic problem is trying to get people to understand that their skills have declined below a safe level, when such has been determined by testing and assessment.
Accident stats, in every industry, reveal that many highly experienced older people, commit grave errors in operation of equipment and machines that results in fatalities and serious injuries.

Those errors are in direct contravention of the common belief that "there's nothing that beats experience".
Unfortunately, long experience quite often leads to complacency, the slow ingress of bad habits, and inadvisable risk-taking.
Add in the very slow neuropathic decline in brain function that affects us all eventually - and the risk of accidents, fatalities and injuries slowly increases with advancing age.

These factors are something we all have to actively be aware of, as we age, and guard against their creeping in.
Many older people are aware of their declining abilities, and actively limit their operations to ones they know they are sure of, and within their capabilities.

Unfortunately, not one us likes to be told by a younger person, that our skills are not up to scratch, and our licencing will have to be downwards-adjusted accordingly. :(
But it's a fact of life, that if we ignore a reasonable assessment that our skills have declined below an acceptable level, then we are only one step away from an accident.

There's some extensive and interesting medical discussion in the link below, dealing with increasing cognitive impairment - not just 100% age-related, but with many other additional factors, discussed as well.
Poor or disrupted sleep patterns are one of the additional factors that reduces cognitive impairment. With more than one additional factor adding to the age factor, the potential for cognitive decline is quite alarming with increasing age.

Age-Related Cognitive Decline (http://www.lef.org/Protocols/Neurological/Age-Related-Cognitive-Decline/Page-01)

[Avgas172]

I was going to comment but I can't remember what I was going to say :E

[LookinDown]

No Av...the issue is multitasking by us seniors.
You need to still be able to remember what you were going to say while at the same time picking your nose.