Any Suggestion on an affordable light jet for retirement use

[too_much]

Hi Folks,

I don't often post in the privates forum so excuse my post.

I am coming up to retirement and possibly interested to invest in a light jet for private use, possibly to tour the world with.

I have had a look on global plane search and there are a few options I have seen

Learjet 25 starting at around 200-300k USD
Learjet 35 starting at around 500-600k USD

My budget for the actual purchase is around the 750,000 USD mark

My questions are how much would a light jet cost in maintance each year based on light use?

Any other suggestion for an aircraft I could tour the globe in? I would also consider turbo props such as TBM, C400 series etc

Still early stages...

Finally USA looks to be where the cheaper prices are for aircraft purchase, is this recomended or are most of them rusty cigars lying about?

Does anyone know if it is a lot of hassle & time to re-register US registered aircraft to VH (oz)

Thanks

[Martin_123]

I don't think any of the learjets are approved for single pilot ops, cessna mustangs are however.

If I would tour the world, I would much rather prefer a fresh MEP than old jet. You get to cruise lower, see the sites, terrain changing and that would definitely keep the costs down.. but what do I know, I couldn't afford any of it

[dkatwa]

What about fractional ownership or maybe 'hiring' the latest jet when you want to go on a trip?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that if I had that sort of money to spend, I'd start by spending some of it on a real expert to identify the mission profile, and narrow it down to what will best do the job. Likely to be a few thousands very well spent.

I suspect that the right answer will be a single or twin turboprop, but this is the sort of thing that wants assessing as if you were buying it for corporate use - where you'd certainly do a proper needs / capability study like that, so I may be wrong.

If I was doing the study, I'd start by looking at...

- Payload and range envelope required.
- Any speed on route minima?
- Main operating theatres. That allows you to look at maintenance support, fuel availability, weather protection....
- If there's a particular pilot or pilots to be used, and their licence / medical states.
- Range of airports wish to be able to used
- Initial and ongoing budgets available (not forgetting subsequently that this needs to cover maintenance, hangerage, type-rating costs....)

That would allow a few days work to narrow it down to a handful of types. At that point, you can start thinking seriously about aesthetics.

There are people who have the skillset for doing this sort of evaluation - the military always have a few people, usually aero-eng graduates with subsequent training, on-tap for just such purposes, but clearly a fair number of those have escaped out into the private sector.

But starting with the "gut feeling" types, and then evaluating whether they're the right fit or not is, to my mind, a purchasing equivalent of navigating map to ground.

G

[englishal]

The big question to ask yourself is.....are you a multi millionaire?

Some might laugh at this question, but I knew a guy who had an old citation 500. The fuel alone from California to NY and back was ~$20,000. This was after he upgraded the avionics in a $100,000 refit.

A direct operating cost of something like a Mustang is probably along the lines of $1000 per hour (if memory serves right), not taking into account devaluation which will probably be half a mill the minute you fly it out of the dealers.

My buddy used to fly a Falcon for a wealthy chap. His annual operating costs were about £1,000,000 per year (didn't matter to him as he was a billionaire). I don't think that he did massive amounts of flying either, a couple of transatlantics, one to Oz /RTW, the rest around Europe.

If money is not a massive issue, then why not!

If you don't have millions in the bank, then as another poster said, you could always rent. I know of places that would probably rent the likes of a Mustang (after appropriate type rating and hours as PIC for insurance etc...). This would probably cost about $1800-$2000 (?) per hour including fuel. (I can't remember, I think I paid $1100 per hour dry when I rented it).

I'd be inclined to buy a jetprop or something though. That would fall into your budget and the costs are much lower than a jet (though bear in mind a rebuild of a turbine could be in the region of £150,000).

I've often thought what I'd do if I won the lottery...If I won £10,000,000 I'd buy a nice turbo prop. If I won £50,000,000 I'd buy a Phenom 100. If I won £100,000,000 I'd still stick to the Phenom (possibly a bigger one though), but fly BA First Class around the world drinking Gin and Tonic in the back !;)

[too_much]

Hey there,

Thanks for the feedback that's given me a lot to think about in the early stages.

Perhaps a small jet is too far gone for me, I wasn't sure of the running cost's.

Perhaps a smaller TP or MEP would be more realistic.

I watched the voyage of Andy Hardy from London to Sydney in his PA28 last year and I would also like to take on something similar maybe go all the way round...

[funfly]

If I had loads of £££ I would go for a nice new Piper aircraft. Can land on most airfields, can be fully instrument fitted, spares available anywhere comfy and you can always find someone else who can fly if you are feeling lazy.
I've flown PA's in and out of Manchester Airport and can tell you its a lot more fun that if I had a big jet (not that I can fly a jet)
That would leave you lots of cash to spend on good wine and loose women.

FF

[cockney steve]

Have you seen the extensive posts by ADAM FRISCH ?

He has posted fascinating accounts of his love-affair with a Rockwell Commander, it's trials, tribulations and upgrades.......then his change to an Aerostar....and it's use.
It seems Adam is going back to a Commander that's Turbopropped, IIRC. and he was/is selling his re-engined aerostar.


He's a man who lives your dream....take a look!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hey there,

Thanks for the feedback that's given me a lot to think about in the early stages.

Perhaps a small jet is too far gone for me, I wasn't sure of the running cost's.

Perhaps a smaller TP or MEP would be more realistic.

I watched the voyage of Andy Hardy from London to Sydney in his PA28 last year and I would also like to take on something similar maybe go all the way round...

Have to ask, your profile says that your current types are "B737-1-9ER A310 B777/787". That would tend to suggest that you've flown around the world a few times. What flying experience do you actually have?

Andy proved that you don't need a lot of aeroplane for long trips, you just need time and money, but he clearly didn't do things by the great circle route! And he was an average PPL when he started, although probably wasn't by the time he got back home!

G

[PA28181]

Having seen a retired banker and his pretty wife flying off to all parts exotic from an airfield I know well, and his aircraft is seen worldwide, it's a PC12 and given the means, this would be my dream aircraft, but as I don't do the lottery and the FS pension won't cover it, I'll dream on.

No idea of the running costs but assume better than a twin engine small jet.

[Katamarino]

If you want to fly anywhere outside of Europe or North America, I probably wouldn't consider a piston. AVGAS is rare as hens teeth in the rest of the world. Turboprop would be my ideal aircraft for this kind of travel!

[AdamFrisch]

Although you can get into a jet for that, it will be range limited, need to employ crews (unless you get a 500SP), be ruinous to run at low altitudes and will be in the $2000-3000/hr range to operate. My suggestion would be to get a twin turboprop. There are many to chose from, but since I'm biased, one of the later Turbo Commanders are hard to beat.

If you buy an 840, 900, 980 or 1000 model with the Dash 10 engines, you have wetwing 474gal capacity, which will take you 2000nm non stop. That's longer legs than any other TP (except the Merlin). This is very useful when you need to bypass GA unfriendly countries in Asia and the Middle East. The Commander will be able to land on any surface, grass, dirt. It will also get into shorter fields than the competition. On top of that it will go 300kts all day long and fly at FL310 if you need it to. There's a reason Commanders are so popular on the used market - they do everything really well. And with the later models, all the spar strap mods were a thing of the past.

With a Dash 10 Commander you're looking at $800-1000/hr if you play it smart. A lot of bang for the buck. Load them up with people and gear and go the distance.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/0/6/4/1739460.jpg

[RatherBeFlying]

Would it be too much airplane once you're back home?

If it doesn't fit, you'd be looking to sell it to buy something closer
to your needs.

Perhaps a dry lease for a year would make more sense.

[Marchettiman]

What about a Parisjet2...Morane Saulnier MS880B? A really quirky geriatric jet that you can maintain yourself after a bit of learning. It's like a classic car, mechanics can fix them without expensive diagnostics. I had one for 15 years and it was great fun, pressurised to FL250, 320 kts TAS, airconditioning, everything is electric with simple mechanical back up for gear and airbrakes. The Marbore VIc engines are noisy, but that's not a problem except at big international airports in Europe.
I planned 750 litres for the first hour, 550 litres for time in the cruise. Really nice to hand-fly and built as strong as an ox, even if it looks like a flying Citroen 2CV.

[mrmum]

Isn't an MS 880B a Rallye?

[Marchettiman]

Apologies, of course it is the MS760!

[Private jet]

The rule of thumb is that you should spend no more than 5% of your net worth on a flying machine. Otherwise you probably won't be happy with the running costs, depreciation etc.

[englishal]

I'd like to revise my "if I won the lottery" quote from earlier. If I won 10 mill, one of these would be parked in my hangar. Note, you could comfortably afford to buy one of these with your budget, and if you are an Ex-Boeing flyer, I am sure you would find this a lot of fun. (Don't know the rules in the UK though and if you would be allowed to fly one but in the USA there are a lot of them...).....

[image removed as it is larger than 800x800]

[Romeo Tango]

Not very wife friendly .....
(Though you maybe lucky .... mistress may like it)

[Blink182]

Think the earlier suggestion of a PC-12 was the optimum solution

[ChickenHouse]

I think it really does not matter wether the initial purchase of a light jet is 200k or 750k. If calculated on real TCO the flight hour might easily end up as high as 5,000 USD per flight hour, so if you spent 150h airborne you simply burn another purchase price in a year ... SET are so far cheaper and as private/retirement flying most probably is not time limited, I would go for a decent SET.

[cavortingcheetah]

A mere handful of years ago I was lucky to have the opportunity,albeit a brief one, to fly a Rockwell Shrike Commander in the Caribbean. I've flown quite a bit of charter in piston twins. Specific models include the C310R, Barons of various numbers, Senecas, but not Vs and, of course, the twin Comanche.
The Cessna can be very mildly challenging, the Senecas are desperately boring, the Comanche needs sensitivity and the Beech is simply a quality product. An old Baron is far younger than a Seneca of the same age and usage and that's just the quality difference.
However, the search for my ideal private purchase hit the buttress, as we say in Eton Fives, when I flew the Commander. It's an amalgam of perfect qualities from all the other twins put together with the great advantages inherent with an over wing construction. In a humble way, I'd like to second Adam Frisch's suggestions. There may be some of these aircraft available in South Africa. Eskom used to fly them out of Grand Central and so their engineering department might know the whereabouts of a decent one. Otherwise you could always pop along to Lanseria and buy a reef based King Air 200 with high flotation gear. That'll get in and out of anywhere really. As for single crew in a Lear, why volunteer to die young?

[PA28181]

I think a comment from earlier on should probably be a no-compromise and for traveling the world, anything that uses Avtur rather than Avgas, should be a criteria.

[cavortingcheetah]

It's a pity they didn't fit PT6s to the Rockwell instead of the Garretts.

[skyking1]

The commander is a dream plane. Everyone I talk to who has flown it wore out the old phrase "like it is on rails", and with that beautiful long wing and high dihedral stabilizer, it should be. Engines up out of the dirt, built like a brick outhouse. Love to fly one some day.

[avionimc]

The commander is a dream plane
Agree, for the pilot. But for maintenance it is a different story.

[Mach Jump]

I flew Piston and Turbine Commanders for several years, and I have to agree that the Turbine Commander is surely the most versatile and rewarding aircraft I have ever flown.

For the OP though, I would join the others in suggesting one of the SETs (Piper Meridian, TBM, PC12). Which one, will depend on the load carrying capacity and range required.


MJ:ok:

[AdamFrisch]

It's a pity they didn't fit PT6s to the Rockwell instead of the Garretts.

Garrets are in most ways better than PT6's:

They're more fuel efficient.
They're quicker to respond.
They have higher TBO.
They're easier to find replacements for.
They're cheaper to run.

Drawbacks are that they require more power to start up and are harder on the batteries. They're also noisier.

[TheiC]

Adam, have you compared them for MTBF? I'd be interested in anything you've found on that topic.

For the OP, I realise the collective consciousness has driven his request for a jet, to a turboprop... I'd be looking very seriously at a CJ, for its low operating cost, efficiency, and relatively easy availability of parts through a world-wide network of dealers. Really pleasant to fly, too, good performance, and a decent cabin and good luggage space.

Otherwise, it's hard to disagree with what Adam says.

[AdamFrisch]

No, I've not done a direct comparison on paper. But due to the free turbine design of the PT6 vs. the direct drive of the TPE, it is the general consensus from many operators I've heard about that they're not quite as efficient. Maybe to the worth of 10% or thereabouts, for the same shp. Reverse flow is part of the culprit.

[englishal]

You won't get a "decent" "low operating cost" jet for $700,000 though.

[TheiC]

Al, I'd have to disagree with that. I know what the last three I flew sold for, and what they were costing to run. One came in south of that figure, and it's very definitely a buyer's market.

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

If I would tour the world, I would much rather prefer a fresh MEP than old jet. You get to cruise lower, see the sites, terrain changing and that would definitely keep the costs down.. but what do I know, I couldn't afford any of it

This. What's the point of doing all this if you're way up in the clouds and can't see it all?

So assuming, as a direct consequence of the above, you don't want to do long over-water sectors or night flying..............SETP ftw.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but with a fair bit of time sat in them, including into rough & unprepared strips, I can't see how the PC12 would be in any way unsuitable.

[AdamFrisch]

Avgas aircraft are useless for world travel. You'll have to ship in barrels of Avgas and plan it months ahead for each stop in most locations. It will end up costing much more to run than any MEP for those trips. Only place they make sense is in the US, Australia and North Europe. Everywhere else is just a total hassle.

[englishal]

Actually a new DA42VI would fit the bill quite nicely.

[AdamFrisch]

Actually a new DA42VI would fit the bill quite nicely.

Yeah, that would work good.

[skyking1]

I had no idea about that plane, I have admittedly been elsewhere. at first the 3100 pound empty weight did not impress me, as the 310 I fly is 3309. Then I got to the performance and fuel burn and the lightbulb started to glow. :)