Scum

[Farrell]

BBC News - Jordan pilot hostage Moaz al-Kasasbeh 'burned alive' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-31121160)

[PeregrineW]

They have plumbed new depths of depravity today.

[Heathrow Harry]

these nutters will do ANYTHING to shock

they can expect the same amount of mercy when it's their turn

[Adour]

If this is true then my deepest sympathies go out to his family and friends. So very sad, a truly deplorable act; I have no more words.

Adour

[victor tango]

Words fail me at the depth of cruelty these people perpetrate. To call them animals is an insult to animals.

Makes me want to drag the femail that they wanted to trade, and give her the same treatment, but...............

[Heathrow Harry]

I don't think she'll be around for very long -

hanging matches rarely work but the Jordanians are going to be react very badly to this

[VinRouge]

Pictures on live leak, looks as if it's true. Absolutely despicable.


hope Jordan carry out their warning to ISIS and the coalition give Raqqa some Kobane loving....


You are with ISIS or against them.

http://youtu.be/0H7UYLcTxog

I hope Jordan throw ROE out the window and turn Raqqa into a mass grave and a lesson to the rest of IS. Either pick up a gun and fight them or be seen as a supporter.

[woptb]

Seen some awful things,heard of many more,but this really shocked me.

[MPN11]

these nutters will do ANYTHING to shock
they can expect the same amount of mercy when it's their turn
I know your emotional reaction, but we don't do things that way, do we*. But they have self-created a World of shock and disgust [exempt some aberrant nations] that does nothing to further their 'cause' and quite probably disgusts much of the global Islamic community as well.

Containment and attrition is the only credible option, IMO. Any form of intellectual approach is a waste of time.

Let the rest of the Islamic World sort out their Islamic "brothers" ... it's their fight, not ours. Perhaps the spreading threat might make some of them get off their prayer mats and attempt to establish some sort of harmonious co-existence. We eventually managed it with the different branches of Christianity a long while back, albeit at some terrible cost.


* I think a 500b LGB is the way these days ... unless left to 'Coalition Partners', in which case we look away and pretend it didn't happen.

[NutLoose]

My sincere condolences to his family,

personally I'd rather not say what I would do.

Trouble is we just skirt around the issues and a few bombs dropped on them isn't going to result in an end game, that would need boots on the ground of troops that can match them.
Shame they didn't get Ebola instead of Africa.

[MPN11]

Shame they didn't get Ebola instead of Africa.
God moves in mysterious ways.

The Arabs get oil, the Africans get diseases, South America gets drug production, North America gets drug consumption, Europe gets the EU and China gets everything else.

Sorry, I shouldn't go whimsical on this thread, but to say what I really felt would probably breach every rule on the Forum, use of the Internet and decent standards.

RIP to the poor young gent, and sympathy to his family and friends.

[Wander00]

Words fail me. May his God go with him and his family

[jayteeto]

Sadly, this young man will only be a press statistic by next month. We should not forget the borders changed today. Murder by beheading is depraved, but this goes far beyond. It's not an execution at all, this is torturing someone to death. This must be sorted out by Muslims. We should support them, but they should lead the way. This is not a religious fight by IS, Allah will have a special welcome for these boys and girls, very special interviews without coffee and virgins.......
RIP young man, hopefully some good will come from your suffering

[NutLoose]

Jordan is going to execute all of their Al Qaeda prisoners in retaliation, shame our politicians don't have such big balls.

And they are not hanging around, they will be dead within hours

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-02-03/jordan-to-execute-iraqi-prisoner-and-other-inmates-in-hours/

[fabs]

No words, this is beyond the pale. RIP Moaz Al-Kasasbeh and condolences to your poor family.

A lot of people who frequent this forum are mates with (or know) someone working in that AOR, I have no idea what may be going through their minds tonight. I feel for you and your families guys, all the best.

Fabs

[Basil]

There are times when I hope I'm wrong in my lack of belief. This is one of them.
Allah will not be pleased by this.

[Tashengurt]

Horrible news. Astonishing depravity that seems to make little sense.
It appeared that IS were managing to divide opinion in Jordan by holding this poor lad. I'd imagine that the public's resolve would strengthen somewhat now?

[tonker]

There is a video, and I'm guilty of watching it.

On one hand I plead with you not to see it, and on the other demand that you and every free thinking person, should witness what the whole world is up against.

Know you enemy....and then destroy the bastards wherever they lie.

[RAFEngO74to09]

US TV now reporting that Jordanian sources believe the pilot was killed on Jan 3. The video has been described in detail and was extensively edited / produced by ISIS showing, inter alia, the King of Jordan asking for volunteers to fight ISIS, a joint statement by President Obama & the King of Jordan, the captured pilot's description of his mission which included details of coalition assets from other Muslim countries, before showing the actual act and aftermath which I won't describe here. Just horrific beyond words. Jordanian authorities have confirmed that execution of prisoners they hold will commence tomorrow.

[Melchett01]

I've seen most of the videos and stills from the various executions over the past few months in my current job, and this is another one that will stay with me for a very long time.

There is only one crumb of comfort that can be taken from this. Lt Kassassbeh died standing tall, on his feet, completely unbowed by the savagery being inflicted on him. And I hope the savages that did this to him noted that small point. That act of defiance right to the very end. A powerful statement by a brave young man that ISIL should note: You may hurt us, but you will never ever beat us.

Lt Kassassbeh I salute you Sir.

[RileyDove]

I think maybe now is the time that the Coalition should decide to deploy over welming force. We are fighting an enemy that has weapons and money - the idea of ground forces engaging in Iraq and Syria might start alarm bells but
we know that IS are here to the death - the time is now for the coalition to deploy some 'shock and awe' -whether thats Apache's -MBT's -B-52's or a combination -tragic as it might seem but Raqqa needs leveling!

[ValMORNA]

It may not be universally palatable, but in my opinion the female who Jordan had been holding should be released in accordance with IS wishes - after infecting her with some nasty disease. Ebola springs to mind.

[junior.VH-LFA]

I have very limited words to describe this.

A level of evil I didn't know still existed in 2015.

[Finnpog]

It seems to me that IS are picking a fight to try and get 'crusader' forces on the ground in order to take more life and also try to create a jihad against the Great Satan (other terms are available).

Jordan called 'bull****' on them by demanding a proof that Lt al-Kasabeh was still alive.

The $200M demand for the Japanese hostages was also so large that it was clearly just a 'come on'.

They are not warriors.
Just depraved, criminal thugs - seeking to cause mayhem and make themselves legends in their own warped minds.
As they are being beaten on the battlefield, they need to try and gain some 'kudos' from another 'spectacular'.

There is no way that on their day of judgement that their Maker will ever determine that they have been righteous.

Time to send them the love - thermobarically speaking.

[Melchett01]

In their minds the $200M was a proportionate amount to ask for - it was the exact same amount Japan had pledged in funding support a few days earlier. They were simply toying with the Jordanian and Japanese governments.

[Lima Juliet]

Enough is enough, ROE should be reduced and its time to get "medieval on their arse"...

BLU-96/B 2000lb Fuel-Air Explosive (FAE II) Bomb - YouTube

[ShotOne]

They've burned someone therefore we've got to burn a load of people?

[The B Word]

Someone speak to these bozos: Drone Wars UK | Information and comment on use of drones (http://dronewars.net)

The horrific act subjected on the poor Lt could have been avoided if we all used more of General Atomics' finest in the real-time armed-ISTAR role...

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafwaddington/rafcms/mediafiles/153FC523_5056_A318_A875651D9837F20C.jpg

Lt Moaz al-Kasasbeh will be remembered for his bravery and I am saddened to see a fellow Fast Jet brother go out this way.

The B Word

[Lima Juliet]

They've burned someone therefore we've got to burn a load of people?

No, but plenty of the bad people and their sympathasizers should be 'open season' - or would you rather we leave them to continue to hack more people's heads off, crucify people and burn people in cages? :ugh:

LJ

[Ivor Fynn]

As an ex FJ mate to another's family and friends I am truly disgusted by the inhumane way IS has taken this forward. I'm sorry but it's about time some politicians grew a set and played by the same rules. The phrase 'bomb them back to the Stone Age' comes to mind. I am struggling to contain my anger at the barbaric behaviour of the scum that have done this.

Ivor

[mr snow]

A retired Jordanian General on Newsnight put it nicely: 'You cannot be civilised with uncivilised people'.

[air pig]

Ivor Fynn:

I'm sorry but it's about time some politicians grew a set and played by the same rules. The phrase 'bomb them back to the Stone Age' comes to mind.

They are already there, that is the problem.

My previous comment earlier this evening has been quietly modded out.

[Interested Passenger]

Anyone who says if we drop something big and explosive on these thugs, we are no better than them, would they say the same thing about the lads who dropped bombs on Nazi Germany in WWII? Sometimes good men have to do bad things to stop bad people. Wars are like that.

Setting up a creche so youngsters in the UK don't want to join the thousands already there isn't going to fix the problem.

Every day we worry about collateral damage and international opinion rather than act, these thugs are killing thousands. We get very worked up by the few very public murders they carry out, and quite rightly so, but entire towns and villages are being eradicated.

Unlike Nazi Germany there isn't a head of state and leadership we can identify. No real tactical bases, no airfields, ports, munitions factories, just flies and sand.

We do have weapons that can do that sort of job. They have been used before. Those bombs dropped on Japan were horrific, no one can deny that, but they ended the war, and saved lives in the end.


They sure aren't gonna stop of their own free will. They have to be stopped.

[The Sultan]

Maybe this will cause Turkey to stop supporting IS and start helping the Kurds while tightening their borders, disappearing IS supporters within and along thier borders, and opening up a lot of tarmac space. No one needs their ground troops, as their is no place for Eunuchs in this fight.

The Sultan

[VinRouge]

Jordan has carried out the threat to hang their Isis inmates. I hope the rest ofthe Arab world follows suit with a suitably short rope.

[rh200]

Jordan has carried out the threat to hang their Isis inmates. I hope the rest ofthe Arab world follows suit with a suitably short rope.

And whats that going to do, nothing, ISIS won't give a sh!t, just more fallen comrades dying in the course of duty.

Frankly I'm all for it, less scum to feed and pay for, but using it as punishment in this case is a waste of time.

[AGS Man]

I have to agree with most of the posts but Melchett 01 said it all.
Incidentaly, beheading is an acceptable form of execution (murder in the case of IS) in the middle east but burning to death is definitely not. IS may just have lost a lot of support.

[VinRouge]

Rh200 better give them the general Pershing treatment then.

[Skeleton]

Words fail me, this is barbarism on a new scale, I just hope this loses IS support. No negotiation now, you do not talk to a cockroach before you squash it, i see no reason to afford these animals any other treatment.

[jayteeto]

Just remember...... they WANT this reaction. Read deeper, this was a professional grade video.

WHY??

They want the infidel to invade their lands and kill Muslims.
When Saddam was executed, my foreign students from "friendly" states were outraged. They said the USA should not be involved in killing Muslims. Remember this, one was a Kuwaiti who had fought against Saddam. Condemning....... US!!
You have to get into the mind of your enemy, there are people way cleverer than I, who could fight them better than we do now. Get the gloves off, but be a ninja not a hammer.

[Basil]

jayteeto, You have to get into the mind of your enemy
Couldn't agree more.

[Davef68]

You have to get into the mind of your enemy, there are people way cleverer than I, who could fight them better than we do now. Get the gloves off, but be a ninja not a hammer.

I don't think Western politicians, especially US ones, have never understood the Arab/Muslim mentality, especially loyalty to their religion.

[Nige321]

A disturbing aspect of the video not much reported on is that the last few minutes is a scrolling list of Jordanian FJ pilots with their pictures, personal details, and satellite pictures of their home addresses...

[Martin the Martian]

I can`t help but wonder what the British government`s reaction would be if it was an RAF pilot. Another outraged yet empty pledge to bring the perpetrators to justice, I suspect, with nothing to back it up.

[ShotOne]

Rule 1 of any sort of conflict is don't do exactly what your enemy wants you to. A huge overreaction, however understandable, preferably with lots of collateral damage, would suit IS perfectly.

[Tu.114]

Here is an article (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/jordanien-koenig-abdallah-durch-toetung-von-pilot-unter-druck-a-1016613.html) in German Spiegel magazine that might be of interest, as it shows a bit of what IS was after with this abominable act.

Summary: The murder of Lt Kasasbeh threatens to widen fractures within Jordanian society. Their governments policy of fighting the IS is polarizing the country; many citizens do not understand why Jordan fights IS, but not the forces of al-Assad, who is just as guilty of murdering innocent civilians.

There are groups sympathizing with IS within Jordan who are getting increasingly angry with the government. Last year, there have been small scale demonstration in support of IS in the unemployment-riddled South of the country that often feels neglected by Amman. It is feared that sympathizers might attack targets in Jordan instead of travelling to Syria or Iraq.

The civil wars in neighbouring Iraq and Syria exert much pressure on small Jordan. With its nearly 7 million citizens, it has given shelter to about 800.000 refugees. This number is rumoured to increase to above a million until end of 2015. Many Jordanians are unhappy about this, as the refugees are seen to take up their jobs and drive housing rents up.

Highly unusually, public criticism of King Abdullah II was heard in recent weeks. The influential family of recently murdered Lt al-Kasaesbeh staged protests even while official negotiations between Jordan and IS on his release and exchange against imprisoned terrorists were ongoing.

The al-Kasaesbeh tribe is of some influence in Jordans south. They are allied with the government and help it keep this part of the country under control. Rumors say that the king had learned about the murder way before the family was informed.

The tribe is highly upset and demands decisive action from the government including massive attacks against IS.

The king is forced to react and tries to show strength. Two condemned terrorists have been hanged after the video had been published: 44year old Sadschida al-Rischawi and Ziad al-Karbouli. The long-term effects of these executions are doubtful and possibly result in deeper polarization of the country.

So Jordans actions could be construed as a success for IS: The terror organisation can now claim the two executed islamists as martyrs for their cause.

IS is ruthless and a disgrace to every other human being. But one thing they are not: stupid. Burning out this cancer of the earth is necessary; however, this needs to be well planned and not based on knee-jerk reactions.

[Sop_Monkey]

Hope our boys have access to potassium cynide.

If operating over IS held territory I would be in no hurry to bang out, that's for sure.

[NickB]

At times like this, the words of Kenny Everett spring to mind... "round 'em all up, put 'em in a field & bomb the b'stards"...

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

[Melchett01]

I don't think Western politicians, especially US ones, have never understood the Arab/Muslim mentality, especially loyalty to their religion.

Which is why Cameron stood up and said we won't stop until ISIL's poisonous ideology is defeated. I may being a little pedantic, but you cannot defeat an ideology. You can counter it and restrict its opportunities to grow and flourish, but defeat it, no, not militarily. That's why the King of Jordan in an interview last year characterised this as WW3 in all but name; he rightly noted that the current military action can only ever be the short term solution to remove the perpetrators and buy time for the politicians to set the conditions for the longer term generational aspects of the struggle. And as for the generals and politicians putting a 3 year timeframe on this (or however long they said last year), they would do well to remember John Reid's notorious 'without a shot being fired' statement. This is way longer than a 3 year job if you're going to do it properly and not just suppress the problem temporarily as we did with AQ-I in the first place.

Unfortunately that's what was supposed to happen in Afghanistan as well; how did that turn out. Let us hope the wise beards amongst the Jordanian government and tribes react in a decisive but clinical manner. Two executions of already convicted terrorists will never be enough, there will be more to this. But I hope it will be surgical rather than feeding the beast by simply lashing out, although that would probably feel far more satisfying at the time.

As for der Spiegel, last week they had a fill scale investigation in to Syria building a nuclear plant in secret on the Lebanese border. I wouldn't take what they say at face value without doing a bit of checking first.

[NutLoose]

One way I look at it is the beheadings are seen more or less as a legitimate way of execution in the Middle East, so a lot of detractors wanting Jordan out of the conflict at home did not view the murders as anything out of the normal killing wise.
However, I feel that setting fire to a caged prisoner is a different entity altogether and something that even Jordanian hard line Muslims are offended by, that far from acting as a catalyst to cause further dissent at home in Jordan may have just done the opposite and cemented a will to see IS destroyed.

[thorpey]

Lee Rigby was murdered on home soil and we continue to pay benefits to hate filled extremists, nothing similar to Jordan's reaction.

[Tu.114]

It seems that IS is even in violation of Islam with the murder of Lt al-Kasasba.

There is a hadith spoken by Muhammed himself (http://sunnah.com/abudawud/15/199) that goes:

Regarding The Abhorrance Of Burning The Enemy With Fire: (...) It is not proper to punish with fire except the Lord of fire.

There is even a fatwa out already. Sheikh Ahmed al-Tajib has decreed that this deed demands the most severe punishment under Sharia law: Crucifixion, other forms of the death penalty, and the amputation of limbs.

It may be that this terrible murder got something like a self-cleansing system within Islam to slowly grind into motion...

[MPN11]

Good post, Tu.144 :ok:

The only way this abomination will be resolved is by Muslims, using the Holy Quran to expose the pseudo-muslims of IS.

Sadly, Western nations throwing bombs at them may kill a few/lot, but that will not ever resolve the issue. I pray to my God that for once the various sects within Islam will combine constructively to expunge this awful collection of people. But history is not on our/their side, as they happily continue to slaughter 'the wrong sort of Muslim'.

They may grow up one day, but I'll be long dead before that happens.

[Davef68]

Tu.114,

You hit on one of the problems the West face in understanding and dealing with Islamic fundamentalists. Islam does not have an organised structure or unified leader in the way that, say, the Roman Catholic Church has the Pope and it's structure, or the CofE the Archbishop, synods etc. So interpretation is down to the various Imans, scholars and tribal leaders. Each of whom has their own interpretation of what the Koran meant. So often, you listen to the leader that says what you want to hear.

It also leads to perceived insults to the religion being felt on a much more personal level, as there is no leadership body to react to insults.

[Tu.114]

The multipolarity of the Islamic world is a problem indeed. There are not just Muslims: there is the Sunni and the Shia variety, and from there on, it gets complicated. A bit indeed like the Christian churches that are not even begun to be described by calling them Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant - there is no man who is considered a supreme authority by all of the denominations. To put it a bit bluntly: the Holy Trinity can be agreed upon, but beyond that it starts to get fuzzy. And indeed, there are Christian denominations that are highly offended (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church#Health_and_diet) by things like a pork roast dinner that is very normal to others.

But of course, there are persons within Christianity that have somewhat higher authority than others. Even though not everyone will follow the Pope´s teachings to the letter, he will at least be listened to by many. About the same, but to a slightly lesser extent, can be said for the Archbishop of Constantinople, who is heard in most Orthodox churches.

And the same can be said for Islam. If the al-Azhar University of Cairo speaks, it will be heard by many Sunnites. To get back to the abominable murder that was the cause of this thread - it seems indeed that the Grand Imam of al-Azhar Mohamed Ahmed el-Tayeb has spoken, highly condemning this and calling for most severe punishments to be inflicted on the murderers.

One will wait to see where this leads to. The roots left aside (as discussing them is only of academic interest and the present situation is a given fact); it is however clear that cleaning up this mess is an intra-Islamic problem that cannot and will not be solved with Western, Eastern and other non-Islamic involvement - as has been said by several other posters on here.

[NutLoose]

Glad to see this sheikh chappie is agreeing with my post above, however I do not think it will bother IS one iota what they think or say, as they have already appear to have rewritten the Koran to suit their needs regardless of what it actually says...

That said, the rejection and revulsion that this is causing throughout the Islamic world may
1. cut off their funding and
2. Cause the rest of the Arab world to take matters into their own hands.

[MPN11]

2. Cause the rest of the Arab world to take matters into their own hands.
Except for the UAE, who appear to have bottled out and are no longer contributing to air strikes.

With friends like those .... :mad:

[Tu.114]

And create a martyr or two in the process, and have all the ensuing rage directed at the (western?) power that dropped this bomb?

No, this is not the solution.

I would rather suggest the following: Western meddling in this corner of the world has proven of little help already several times. So have the Islamic countries sort out their affairs themselves with outside assistance limited to the provision of supplies (preferably humanitarian aid, but if it needs be also arms) at maximum. While this is going on, limit the actions of the Western countries (and everyone else) to enforcing their laws at home properly for a change to keep the fight from seeping into and being fought in countries that have nothing to do with it any more.

Might take a while and it will likely be not more pretty to watch than todays chaos, but I dare say that after a period of turmoil, this will end in more stable conditions than those found today.

[smujsmith]

Jordan's reaction to the bestial murder of their pilot is fitting, and surely serves to tell the world that these scum are not worthy of the title enemy of war, because they respect no standard of decency, let alone standard of respect for captured prisoners. In Britain we have many, known to the security forces, returned IS fighters. I would have no qualms in the arrest, and deportation to Jordan as gallows fodder of these scum, no doubt, the hand wringing masses of Wasteminster would vote such a move down, but I wonder if the will of the British people were to prevail, that political will would founder. We are rapidly approaching a point now where the appeasers (LibLabCon being part of that movement) will start to lose national support for their unerring preference of migrant rights over traditional beliefs. One way or another, the hideous and barbaric treatment of this young man adds a new dimension to terrorism, which needs to be responded to in the harshest way. The man was a fellow serviceman, whilst not in the Air Force I served. I only hope that his family will believe his sacrifice was worthwhile. His service has my utmost respect.

Smudge

[VinRouge]

Tu114, if they are all dead to a man, there will be no one left to fight. Use German kessel techniques, isolate concentrations of resistance, prevent movement using local forces to form a cordon then drop every building.

[MPN11]

The problem with your proposition, Smudjsmith, is the EHCR.

[jayteeto]

Until the next lot get organised with even more hate in their heart

[Tu.114]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Islam_by_country.png/500px-Islam_by_country.png

VinRouge, objections aside (of which I have rather many!), do You consider this feasible just from a technical standpoint?

[VinRouge]

Islam isn't, nor has it ever been, the problem though. A small subset of ill educated, sexually frustrated failure ridden vicious thugs that are gagging to be made an example of are.

We didn't win against a similarly motivated (use of rape, torture, genocide and beheadings) Japanese force in ww2 with hearts and minds. We pulled out all the stops. And I'm not talking about the bombs, I'm talking about the land campaign. In short, we ****** them up. We defeated them physically and psychologically, the ideology bit followed on as soon as they knew we had complete hedgemony over them.

I think the Arab world at some stage is going to need to re-define borders and agree to stay off of each other's turf. The accession arguement that has caused so much bloodshed over the past 1400 years is not going to be solved overnight but there are mitigations possible to help the process. I can see Iraq being split into three with a big chunk of Syria forming part of a new Sunni nation.

[downsizer]

As I said when the poor guy got captured, if it were me, I'd rather they jdam'd me there and then.

[VinRouge]

King of Jordan quotes Clint Eastwood as he addresses Congress over ISIS video | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2938668/Jordanian-king-Obama-meet-pilots-killing.html)

Well, at least the Arabs get it.


Jordan's King Abdullah II quoted film character saying 'I'm not only going to kill him, I'm going to kill his wife and all his friends and burn his damn house down'

Abdullah told members of Congress how his only problem would be running out of fuel and bullets

Obamas response was to give the king a billion dollars. I expect Jordan is expecting a fair few more refugees.


'The king feels that the gloves are off and that it now is time if you can't negotiate with these people, you're going to have to take it to them, and I think it's going to be more than Jordan.'

Happy hunting guys! :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Some thoughtful and informative posts from Tu 114, thanks

Nick B

"round 'em all up, put 'em in a field & bomb the b'stards"...


Well, now you have got it off your chest, as you put it, would you care to explain how you are going to achieve the rounding up bit of your suggestion?

[tartare]

In ISIS behaviour, the amateur psychologist in me sees quite a bit of pure psychopathy.
Not as is the coldly, calculated vicious side of what they have done.
Rather - that because psychopaths lack empathy, despite their intelligence, pure clinical psychopaths eventually miscalculate and get caught, or suffer the consequences of their actions.
They've miscalculated here I think.
Contrary to what some posters here think, I don't know if they're that clever really.
I think they just want a fight with the west - the mythical confrontation in Daesh so to speak.
I think we're crediting them with way too much strategic nous to assume that they have some masterplan of provoking us to come in, and kill Muslims as collateral damage in order to turn Muslims of the region against us.
If that was the plan, they wouldn't have committed such an egregious act of barbarism as burning someone alive - which will alienate moderates.
I think they're all a bit thick to be honest.

[jayteeto]

Tartare, you may very well be correct. I think they got it wrong this time, but we must react carefully. Even if that means eventually "nuking" them, after other options are exhausted.
My comments are long term ones, only other Arab nations can sort this out (with our subtle help). As long as the west lead the way, young Muslims will join the fight.

[Double Back]

Over the years contributing on this forum I could hold my emotions in check. In this one I can't.

Because yesterday I saw a picture of Moath, taken from above showing him sitting in his F16 office. One handsome young guy, face one big grin, depicting in an almost childish way 100% total happiness. Happy for having achieved his lifelong dream of becoming a fighter pilot. He looks like one of my sons.
Destroyed in the most inhumane way You can think of.
Not even as a parent I can get close to the pain his relatives now must feel.

Guys over there, dust off those Napalm canisters and burn that disease off the face of the earth. That is the only language that works.

I am sure Moath flies along with You and gets You guys safe home again.

[Wokkafans]

Non-verified reports coming in the King Abdullah has been (or will be) personally involved in one of the bombing missions against ISIS.

http://www.iraqinews.com/baghdad-politics/urgent-king-of-jordan-to-participate-in-striking-isil/

http://en.shafaqna.com/topnews/item/41005-jordans-king-abdullah-ii-will-participate-personally-in-a-series-of-air-strikes-against-isis.html

[tartare]

Is he a pilot? Doesn't seem to say on his Wikipedia profile...

[Wokkafans]

According to his official web site

"In 1985, then-Prince Abdullah returned to Jordan to serve in the armed forces (Armoured Corps, 3rd Division). Rising through the ranks to lieutenant-colonel, he attended advanced military courses in both Jordan and the UK. Among other duties, he served on attachment to the Special Forces and qualified as a Cobra attack helicopter pilot. After service as commander of the 2nd Armoured Battalion, 40th Armoured Brigade, he was named deputy commander, Jordanian Special Forces, in January 1993."

King Abdullah II Official Website | Profile (http://kingabdullah.jo/index.php/en_US/pages/view/id/148.html)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9Elnn6IAAAzLyf.jpg


http://d3dyqb2m69ozbp.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/img_from_extracter/urgent-king-of-jordan-to-participate-in-striking-isil.jpg

[skydiver69]

ISIS's actions were very calculating particularly if you consider that the prisoners they were demanding from Jordan were of no importance to them at all. They must have realised that there was a good chance that they would be executed once Jordan found out about Moaz al-Kasasbeh's death, meaning that they were considered to be no more than collateral damage.

[hunterboy]

At the risk of being contentious......(and I am in no way supporting ISIS)... But if you voluntarily join an armed service, one has to accept the consequences of being killed or captured? I don't think anyone is under any illusions of what is going to happen to you if you get captured by ISIS.
I'd feel a lot of sympathy for some poor conscript sent out there to fight these people.
Seems to me that ISIS are playing to win.

[Basil]

hunterboy, Paraphrased from a training manual fifty years ago: 'You may be captured by a savage enemy who is not signatory to the Geneva Convention; that is the price of freedom and democracy.'

Those people have a reputation for the utmost savagery and barbarism going back hundreds of years

[Basil]

Unfortunately, we now have so many Muslims in our country that there is an open port to their mediaeval customs up to, and including, infiltration by IS.
We already have voter fraud with death menaces, animal abuse, FGM and 1400 girls sexually abused, pimped and tortured by Pakistani gangs so it's a small step for The Caliphate in the form of our homegrown groupies of al-Baghdadi to show up.

Edited to note that I know and have worked with many Muslims. Two were at one time likely to become fathers-in-law of my children. We had a home in the ME for four years and I have spent my life travelling to Islamic countries. I've been told "I only drink Champagne, Basil." and have sat having a beer with pilot colleagues discussing the days when they fought on opposite sides in a well known ME war. I am sure that none of those would welcome the imposition of a Wahabbist lifestyle BUT any Muslim's family can be threatened by such people.
"If you do not join us, we will kill your family!" That's what I'm getting at.

[Sop_Monkey]

Basil

You have mentioned what any normal person including our politicians know. Only difference in your post, you have removed most of the PC c:mad:p we're all forced to endure. :ok:

[spooky3]

Basil

You speak the truth, many are to afraid it will be the downfall of all of us in years to come, i really fear for my childrens children!

[Same again]

Sadly so. We are fighting battles but the war is lost and our politicians gave away those hard won freedoms.

[Tu.114]

The problem is that freedom is not an absolute thing. If it is not defended, it is gone in shortest time.

And what else is defending freedom but restricting it - in this case the freedom of its enemies to combat it?

Here is a paradoxon that ought to be solved by Western civilisations rather yesterday than tomorrow.

[tarantonight]

The threat from ISIS is massive and cannot be understated. They cannot be reasoned with and have to be destroyed - wiped off the face of the earth.

There is no other solution.

TN.

[spooky3]

P.C will be the death of this country as we know it!:ugh:

[Melchett01]

Well they really didn't hang around did they:

Jordan unleashes wrath on ISIS: 'This is just the beginning' - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/05/world/isis-jordan/index.html)

If it was us, we'd still be consulting the lawyers, spin doctors, and party activists whilst waiting for the MP for Little Snoring on the Wold to cut his fishing trip short to debate it in the Commons before issuing a harshly worded ticking off.

And good on them. The more I see of King Abdullah, the more he strikes me as a proper, old school, values driven leader.

Edited to add, just read the article as well as watching the clip. If correct and they really did put up 30 jets on one raid, when did we last manage that?

[deptrai]

Is he a pilot? Doesn't seem to say on his Wikipedia profile...

he did qualify as a HueyCobra Pilot, long time ago. Before that, attended Sandhurst, commissioned into the British Army as a Second Lieutenant, and served for a year as a troop commander in the 13th/18th Royal Hussars. Later Armored Officer's Advanced Course at Fort Knox. I think he has an idea about how to fight tanks, and fly a helicopter. Not sure how that knowledge will help in this new war. The tools they teach people in war school were usually helpful against yesterday's enemy, and may be somewhat outdated.

[GreenKnight121]

he did qualify as a HueyCobra Pilot, long time ago. Before that, attended Sandhurst, commissioned into the British Army as a Second Lieutenant, and served for a year as a troop commander in the 13th/18th Royal Hussars. Later Armored Officer's Advanced Course at Fort Knox. I think he has an idea about how to fight tanks, and fly a helicopter. Not sure how that knowledge will help in this new war. The tools they teach people in war school were usually helpful against yesterday's enemy, and may be somewhat outdated.

Because everyone has been saying that the only way to actually finish ISIL is with ground troops. As of now, those are Iraqi/Kurd/Iranian volunteers/other anti-Assad Syrian rebels - but now we may well see Jordan use some of the ~400 Challenger 1 (Al-Hussein) and ~180 upgraded M-60A3 (Phoenix) tanks currently in its active forces (or even perhaps some of the 274 upgraded Chieftain (Al-Khalid) tanks currently in storage).

Also the >1,300 M113s, and so on. Not to mention the 25 AH-1 Cobras (and I'm sure the US would love to sell some of the hundreds of retired US Army Cobras if Jordan asks for them.

Note that King Abdullah knows very well how those should be employed - and this fight is actually a very old one, in terms of how ISIL fights - with tactics that are very familiar to every Arab.

[tartare]

I assume they;d just go straight up the highway into Iraq and on to Ramadi, and then start sweeping North, cleaning them up as they go.

[Heathrow Harry]

we could start by stopping the Kurds and Turks buying oil from ISIS

[strake]

I tried not to look but in the end, I pressed the button. There are indeed no adequate words to describe that horror. For the safety of humanity, these sub-humans need to be eradicated.

[LS-4]

Without for a second disagreeing with the basic premise here, i.e. IS being unspeakable vermin, is there not a trace of self-centredness in the demands that "now we must pull out all the stops...etc"? That's "NOW", not last week or last month. Is this maybe because this particular victim happens to be someone with a job and background we recognise and identify with? Why is nobody insisting we deploy forces -nukes even, against other groups guilty of atrocities -Boko Haram or janjaweed for example? Maybe we could even save some sunshine for the Lords Resistance Army?

Same thoughts.

Also:

Bombs can?t defeat Daesh: Iraqi exiles | GulfNews.com (http://gulfnews.com/news/region/iraq/bombs-can-t-defeat-daesh-iraqi-exiles-1.1405750)

“What is needed to eliminate this terrorism is to eradicate the motives behind injustice, marginalisation and genocide, and to give people back their rights and freedoms,” he said in the Jordanian capital Amman, home to thousands of Iraqi refugees.

(...)

Sunni clerics and community leaders living in exile in Jordan say power-sharing in Iraq between Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites will be needed to bring stability to the violence-wracked nation.

Without a political consensus between all Iraqis, “we will not be able to beat Daesh, and even if we succeed another group will emerge — another Daesh,” warned Yahya Al Kubaisi, a consultant for the Amman-based Iraqi Centre for Strategic Studies.

Sa’adi, the cleric, said the US-led coalition carrying out air strikes on the militants must “revise its positions because the situation will get worse across the world”.

He urged the coalition leaders to meet Sunni figures to hear their demands, including the creation of an Iraqi government of technocrats.

“When our rights are met, we will know how to deal with Daesh. This is our problem,” he said.

I won't pretend to sit on any good answers here, but as always I think it's wise to stay frosty. Use of force - yes, but gotta be smart and patient about this. I've never believed much in frenzied "Endlösung" stuff. Ninja it, as someone said.

[charliegolf]

Fuel-air weapons- you can re-use the land. Mmm, maybe not.

CG

[lonkmu]

Can we not pay some Exec Outcomes / Sandline / ex spec forces etc etc types to go in there quietly and start eliminating this disease?

I reckon we could start a just giving page and collect a few million in a matter of days.

I know I would donate

[deptrai]

I think this barbaric burning of a pilot is a sign of the impotency ISIS feels against air power.

I personally know one of the people who helped to pull McCain out of the pond he ejected into, he's a good guy in my book. He has no quarrels admitting that after getting McCain out of the water, McCain received a good beating. In an ideal world, that's not how you treat an injured opponent...but these were civilians, whose families had been bombed, whose houses had been destroyed, who had never been taught about the Geneva Conventions, civilians who felt completely impotent against the bombers in the sky. It's not the right thing do, to beat a pilot who was part of destroying everything you call home, but I can see the anger civilians on the receiving end of air power must feel. Yet, McCain is alive and well, no one burned him alive (I am tempted to say...unlike some civilian casualties of Napalm, and not to mention, the long term effects of Agent Orange). For years, McCain has been very outspoken condemning all kinds of "enhanced interrogations" etc (a terrible euphemism, let's just call it torture), and I respect him deeply for that. No matter how inhumanely your opponents treat you, it's not an excuse to do the same. For me, burning your opponents alive is just a sign that someone is losing the battle. They're feeling impotent. Judging by the level of atrocities we've seen...ISIS is desperate.

[thing]

For me, burning your opponents alive is just a sign that someone is losing the battle.

I would concur. No comfort to Lt. Kasasbeh or his family though. I haven't watched the video and don't think it should have been released on the net by the likes of Fox; it panders to the basest human voyeurism. I don't need to watch a man burning to death to feel revulsion at the act.

[Gnadenburg]

Not to mention the 25 AH-1 Cobras (and I'm sure the US would love to sell some of the hundreds of retired US Army Cobras if Jordan asks for them.


Or perhaps the UAE could transfer its F16's to the willing to fight Jordanians.

There's lots at risk here for Jordan in a ground war escalation. Big kahunas if they truly take the fight to the Islamic State.

[Martin the Martian]

Newswatch on the BBC News channel this morning carried a complaint from a viewer who felt that it was wrong that, after not showing the video on the channel, the news presenter at the time described what happened in it twice. They felt that it would have been sufficient enough to say that the pilot was 'killed' by IS without going into detail.

Some people do not get it, do they?

[Pali]

I didn't watch the video and I have no urge to do so. But somehow right after the news I wanted to see the coverage of a night vision attack which wiped out some ISIS fighters from the face of the Earth. Yes I did so and it was a strange way to calm down. Normally I am not glad to hear about violence but I am far from being a pacifist and I think that in many cases only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun.

Maybe ISIS should learn a lesson that there will be a "no guns zone" in the area and anyone wearing one will be eliminated without warning or any questions asked. I am only afraid there is not enough means to provide such cover to solve the whole problem and only ground forces can complete any operation.

ISIS pi**ed so many Arabs now that they are willing to take them out. Hopefully no need to send any NATO ground forces into area anymore.

[nimbev]

Or perhaps the UAE could transfer its F16's to the willing to fight Jordanians.According to the New York Times, the UAE is resuming airstrikes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/07/world/middleeast/united-arab-emirates-key-ally-in-us-fight-against-isis-to-rejoin-air-campaign.html?action=click&contentCollection=Middle%20East®ion=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/07/world/middleeast/united-arab-emirates-key-ally-in-us-fight-against-isis-to-rejoin-air-campaign.html?action=click&contentCollection=Middle%20East&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article)

[RUCAWO]

Closer to home.

CCTV released after beheading threat to cadets outside Gateshead Territorial Army Centre - Chronicle Live (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/cctv-released-after-beheading-threat-8590775)

[Lima Juliet]

We need a modern day Lady Houston to wake up the Government!

Lucy, Lady Houston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy,_Lady_Houston)

[Melchett01]

ISIS pi**ed so many Arabs now that they are willing to take them out. Hopefully no need to send any NATO ground forces into area anymore.

ISIL have done more then that, they have somehow managed to unite nations that are routinely thought of as enemies. From what I've seen in the regional media over the past couple of days, Russia and Ukraine, Iran, the Palestinians and the Israelis and the Turks and Kurds have all come out in agreement to openly criticise ISIL. Can anybody else remember when the Israelis and Palestinians ever agreed on the same thing?

[Adour]

While this is not new news I was reading in a local (Dubai) paper today about the UAE's decision to resume combat operations with its F16s out of Jordan.

What I was pleasantly surprised by was the paper's constant use of the name Daesh in all its articles, I can't help thinking that this name should be used in the UK / US, is there a good reason why not?

Adour

[Toadstool]

Ardour,

Daesh is just the transliteration of the arabic acronym for ISIL. No idea why the western press prefer ISIL instead of the acronym.

[Martin the Martian]

Or, if you watch the BBC, the 'so-called Islamic State' as they prefer to call it. Maybe they should just abbreviate it to SCIS.

[Wander00]

BBC seem to have dropped "so called"...Islamic State recently

[Lonewolf_50]

The United Arab Emirates (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/unitedarabemirates/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) has informed the United States that it plans to resume its participation in the American-led airstrikes against the Islamic State group, a senior State Department official said Friday.
Until we can get this "American Led" bit taken over by a regional actor, there will be some gaps that can be politically exploited.

No, I am not holding me breath.

[AR1]

New depths have been plumbed here in my lifetime and consciousness that's for sure. But with regards to ^^ 'US LED.

Did anyone spot the the elephant sitting at the dining table during the news footage of the increased Jordanian attacks returning F16's??

It wasn't listed as library footage, but that sure as hell wasn't an F16 loitering at low level in the vicinity of the airfield.

[SammySu]

Yep, Raptor.

[Lonewolf_50]

U.S. Sending 450 Military Trainers to Iraq for Ramadi Battle - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/u-s-considering-sending-more-military-trainers-iraq-n372656)

Lovely, the "US led" nature of the fight with ISIS ratchets up yet again.

No boots on the ground, all 450 Americans will be wearing ballet slippers. :p

[Tom Joad]

But to what end - do we really have the resolve to do anything of lasting effect?

Tom

[Danny42C]

Lonewolf_50,

Could be wrong, but didn't Vietnam start that way ?

D.

[Lonewolf_50]

Lonewolf_50,

Could be wrong, but didn't Vietnam start that way ?
That would depend upon which year you hold US in Vietnam to have started. Some of us think it was about a month after the debacle and Dien Bien Phu. Others, like Karnow, consider it late 1945 as the Japanese left ...

FWIW Iraq "started" in either 1991 or 2003 (pick your frame of reference) so it's not as though this is something new ... though this latest development was predictable.

Had a few pints with a West Point grad last night. He spent much of 2005-2007 in that lovely place. He's now a professor of Political Science. We both discussed the similarities and differences of those two wars and arrived at "similar but different" as a conclusion. We also agreed that General Powell (Then Secretary of State) in about 2004, was correct in the "if you break it you own it" point.

I remain concerned that it's the first fist into the tarbaby. The Chinese must get a laugh out of all this about once per day, with their tea.

[Stanwell]

OK Lonewolf, you've got my interest piqued.

I had a little involvement in the Viet-Nam unpleasantness and would be interested to hear your take on the Chinese 'titters over tea'.

Still learning.

[SARF]

Was it that long ago when two soldiers were dragged out of cab in N.I. Stripped naked and beaten to death.

[Martin the Martian]

19 March 1988. I remember it well because it was my seventeenth birthday, and the footage on the news made me want to do anything else but celebrate the event.

[rh200]

Was it that long ago when two soldiers were dragged out of cab in N.I. Stripped naked and beaten to death.

Yep its incidents like that which remind me where not much better than the current batch. Maybe people should start looking at us so called whiteys back yard before condeming people in the middle east.

[West Coast]

LW

Trying to understand your comment about when Iraq started.

[Lonewolf_50]

LW

Trying to understand your comment about when Iraq started.
About the Chinese laughing: in-re our choosing to dance with the tarbaby in Iraq, they are laughing at us, not with us. Keeps us at risk while they take care of their business.

From a geostrategic perspective, West, Iraq 2003 started in 1991 once the cease fire was signed, and agreed, and then the UN failed to back it up. That open sore of not closing the deal fed the political factors the culminated in 2002 efforts to sell the war and to undertake it in 2003.

Iraq hasn't ended. Even though most of the "fighting forces" were out by the end of 2010, we've had an ongoing support, training and liaison mission since then. Someone just opened the tap again ... and it's deja vu all over again.