Carriage of guns and ammunition on PVT flights

[Jabawocky]

If I wanted to travel to pistol shooting competitions by private GA, rather than drive, what whoops are required to jump through?

I would like to know who what and how. If you prefer to answer by PM thats good too.

Thanks. :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Back in the day I always carried a Win 308! :E

Assuming you stay away from those funny aerodrome security areas, hard to see a problem flying from YCAB to YWHOOPWHOOP. :ok:

Dr :8

[jimjim1]

piston shooting

What did the pistons ever do to you?

[RadioSaigon]

quite apart from any regulatory Hoops you may be required to negotiate... perhaps a couple of thoughts to prevent any Whoops ;-)

Keep the business-end of the weapon pointed aft... could be daft, but there's less likely to be meat bags or critical bits in the direct line of fire of accidental discharge in that direction
Store the ammunition and the weapon SEPERATELY. Widely, IMO, preferably under PinC supervision
If you can, separate the bolt and/or firing mechanism and store them widely apart, again IMO, preferably under direct PinC supervision

In years past, FTDK and I have crossed swords over this very topic... I don't want to reopen old wounds or restart a discussion well past it's use-by date. I'll state clearly, here and now my ignorance of weapons is massive. My respect for their potential is proportional. My respect for my passengers and the safety of my airframe must be equally, proportional.
My knowledge of or respect for those seeking carriage of weapons must equally be proportional. I don't know You, I don't Know your background, experience or training -or your attitude or motives for that matter, so my personal response as PinC must also be proportional: if you can't prove the ABSOLUTE safety of the weapon you wish transported, it don't travel.

[rutan around]

If I wanted to travel to piston shooting competitions Why waste bullets? Just run WOT 50* ROP. :E

[KRviator]

Civil Aviation Regulation 143 is what you want. It is verboten unless you get it in writing from CAsA that you can.

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 143

Carriage of firearms
************ (1)* A person, including a flight crew member, must not carry a firearm in, or have a firearm in his or her possession in, an aircraft other than an aircraft engaged in charter operations or regular public transport operations.

Penalty:* 10 penalty units.

************ (2)* An offence against subregulation*(1) is an offence of strict liability.

Note:********* For strict liability , see section*6.1 of the Criminal Code .

************ (3)* It is a defence to a prosecution under subregulation*(1) if the person had the written permission of CASA to have the firearm in the aircraft.

Note:********* A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subregulation*(3) (see subsection*13.3(3) of the Criminal Code.

[Squawk7700]

Talk to me Jabba, have done this (legally) for years.... Didn't know you were looking to pack heat too :cool:

[Aussie Bob]

Just chuck it in a bag wouldn't you? Sheeeeel be right.

[Squawk7700]

Bag? You mean concealed shoulder holster :cool:

[Jabawocky]

KR

I was very aware of that hence the thread being started. What I wanted was any tips on the process in order to have that approval. The best way of going about getting all the stuff sorted.

[Draggertail]

Check out the draft Part 91 rules about firearms below. It would seem CASA is being taken out of the loop and you as pilot in command will just have to write yourself a note permitting yourself to bring your firearm into the aircraft.



Division 91.B.2 Firearms on aircraft


91.080 Bringing firearm into cabin of aircraft etc




(1) Subject to subregulation (2), a person commits an offence if:


(a) the person brings a firearm into the cabin of an aircraft; and


(b) before the firearm is brought into the cabin of the aircraft, the pilot in command of the aircraft has not consented, in writing, to the person bringing the firearm into the cabin of the aircraft.


Penalty: 25 penalty units.


(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply to a person who is authorised under another law of the Commonwealth to possess the firearm on the aircraft.


(3) Subject to subregulation (4), a person commits an offence if:


(a) the person possesses a loaded firearm in the cabin of an aircraft; and


(b) before the person possesses the loaded firearm in the cabin of the aircraft, the pilot in command of the aircraft has not consented, in writing, to the person possessing a loaded firearm in the cabin of the aircraft.


Penalty: 25 penalty units.

[hurlingham]

Jaba

Many years ago I held a permit from CASA to carry a revolver on board any aircraft that I was PIC on

Only had to send a copy of licence to CASA with a request.

It has been expired for approx 13 years, so not sure how & if things have changed.

I went via my FOI and never had a problem - had to be renewed every two years from memory.

Good luck

[5-in-50]

woah, liking that Part 91 draft extract!

It's very unlike CASA to allow people to take responsibility for their actions and make their own decision, bearing any consequence of that decision.

We need more rules like this. PIC says 'yes', but is responsible for the outcome.

[Squawk7700]

Here you go Jabba, as discussed, have been doing it since pussy was a kitten.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/instrument1.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/instrument2.jpg

[Jabawocky]

Oakie,

Where's RatsoreA when you need him, pretty sure he's done it a few times (legally I presume)...

He has been SMS'ing me today :ok:

Thanks y'all.

[Jamair]

If yer armed to the teeth Jaba ol mate, why didja go wandering all over the sky dodging a couple little rain clouds today? Jus whip out the trusty 44mag & say ' so, cloud, you feelin lucky? Well are ya, punk'. Guarantee they woulda got outta yer way toute-suite! :E

[RatsoreA]

For the benefit of others who might be contemplating this, not just Jaba, I will put a brief run-down up!

Back in the day, a few days before flight, I used to just pitch up at the local field office, and ask for a letter granting permission, which they called an instrument. I did this on a flight by flight basis, no problems, they just changed the details and hit print, took about 2-3 minutes and cost nothing.

Then, they changed it...

They started doing 'blanket approvals', for a fixed amount of time, rather than individual flights, say this instrument covers all flights, by you, from 1 January 2014 to 30 June 2014, and it had a bunch of conditions. Very much like the picture already posted. Still took about 2-3 minutes.

Now, as of about 3-4 years ago, rather than simple and effective process that it was, you need to WRITE to your local office (email is fine) more than 2 weeks in advance, to have an instrument drawn up, which can cover a block approval, for a specific PIC, for anything up to a 2 year period. This will then be available for collection at your local office, AFTER PAYING A FEE OF ABOUT $219. It is still the same 2 page document, but now they want to add their 'minimum charge' for doing it. They tell me it takes 45 minutes, and they only charge in minimum time, but I suspect they still just go to your file, change the dates of the previous one, click print and sign it. Thieves. So at least make it worth your while and get it for as long as possible, and for any purpose, not just the short time and specific purpose like the example in the above picture.

Or, you could just chuck it in with your underwear down the bottom of the bag and nobody would be any the wiser, because I am reasonably sure no FOI/AWI would be looking through your luggage (nor would they have any legal justification to do so? But I stand to be corrected on that point) at any ramp check...

That point aside, when you do have your magic bit of paper, I think mine also said that they should be inaccessible in flight (ie, in the nose locker, if you have one!) and ammo should also be stored in a separate compartment if possible, and also inaccessible in flight, if possible.

[tail wheel]

The bush lawyer in me notes certain words of obvious importance in that draft legislation:

91.080 Bringing firearm into cabin of aircraft etc

(1) Subject to subregulation (2), a person commits an offence if:

(a) the person brings a firearm into the cabin of an aircraft; and

(b) before the firearm is brought into the cabin of the aircraft, the pilot in command of the aircraft has not consented, in writing, to the person bringing the firearm into the cabin of the aircraft.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply to a person who is authorised under another law of the Commonwealth to possess the firearm on the aircraft.

(3) Subject to subregulation (4), a person commits an offence if:

(a) the person possesses a loaded firearm in the cabin of an aircraft; and

(b) before the person possesses the loaded firearm in the cabin of the aircraft, the pilot in command of the aircraft has not consented, in writing, to the person possessing a loaded firearm in the cabin of the aircraft.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

Interesting! One assumes a permit would not be required and no offense committed if a firearm (loaded or unloaded??) was being carried in an external luggage locker (e.g. a wing locker, not accessible from the cabin in flight), with or without the written approval of the PIC??

[Sunfish]

So a rifle lashed to a wing strut is now OK?

[Eddie Dean]

from reading the reg, it appears you are correct.Tailwheel. I would imagine the rifle would have to be secured in accordance with current gun laws, so could have the rifle in the pod underneath and bolt in the cabin, not sure what to do with the ammunition.

[tail wheel]

So a rifle lashed to a wing strut is now OK?

Probably depends upon which CASA FOI you spoke to Sunfish!! :ugh:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

All very silly really!

Unloaded, bolt out or trigger lock in - a rifle/pistol is no more offensive than a shifting spanner!

This nanny state crap just makes life difficult for the good guys. The bad guys generally don't bother following the rules! :confused:

[HappyBandit]

I recall feds wanting to talk to me in wanting permission to carry guns on board rpt flight as the acting prime minister was coming aboard.

[Jabawocky]

I am with Forky. Nanny state.

One of my friends….my best friend from school, has been shooting since we were in primary school, scouts and cadets. I ceased shooting but he went on to pistols etc in his late teens. I talk to him about the various trips I have had to the USA over the years. He has never been. He often says he would love to experience the free world one day.

I should shout him a ticket!

[Squawk7700]

A number of years back some pistol club mates went to the Pistol World titles in South Africa.

They checked in their pistols in Australia and had them tagged across the boxes with "unloaded firearms" and left them with security, with strict instructions to pick them up from the security office ASAP upon arrival.

They arrived in Johannesburg, went straight to the security office... they couldn't locate them anywhere.. filled out some paperwork then headed back to the baggage carousel to see the only thing left on there (apart from their bags), 12 pistol carry cases with "unloaded firearm" stickers affixed.

To think that nobody touched them, in Jonahhesburg!

Later that week their host went with them to a night club and walked through the metal detector with a 38 super pistol and a flick-knife. The security guard said he can't go in with those and he simply replied "try and stop me" and continued on in. I'd hate to try that in our nanny state! The SOG's would arrive in no time!

[mcgrath50]

So a rifle lashed to a wing strut is now OK?

If you have an EO for it, may as well get it done at the same time as your GoPro :ok:

[Obidiah]

Once upon a time CAR 143 read differently and you could carry a firearm in a private aircraft just not in the cockpit and the ammunition had to be stored separately.


At some point they changed this law.


Apparently a forward firing mounted shotgun with a recoil absorbing slide assembly and head up sights with a remote trigger system is also illegal, so said the man with the funny wig anyway.

[hiwaytohell]

A slight thread drift. But a few years back I knew a young guy who had either just got his CPL or was building hours for his CPL. The enterprising lad was "chartered" by a German tourist to do some aerial pig shooting in a rented C150.

Anyway CASA (probably was CAA back then) got him for a ramp check. Despite flying for hire and reward in a private aircraft, no low level approval, no door off supplement, and a well armed paying passenger, his great crime was flying without a current WAC chart and protractor!

Today he flies A320s!

[Pinky the pilot]

Now why am I thinking about the never ending story of the Regulations rewrite?:confused:

Taily's bush lawyer look at the draft reg quite correctly points out a loophole which any competent Barrister could drive a Road train through!:ugh:

So, can a Pilot, flying his own aircraft from point A to point B carry his own Firearm in his personal baggage?:confused:

Any responsible firearms owner would ensure that the firearm itself is rendered temporarily unusable. In the case of a semi auto pistol such as a Beretta 92 he would remove the magazine, store that separately and fit a triggerlock.

The ammunition is also stored separately in a locked container, away from both gun and magazine.

So what's the answer?:confused:

[Jabawocky]

The irony is that an owner of both the gun and aircraft flying themselves to and from anywhere, is equally safe having the gun, bolt or mag, and the ammo all in the same bag/case, sitting on the back seat of their 172.

No amount of silly rules and regs change that "state of safety" to anything safer.

A bit different if you have a plane load of dubious characters as well. :uhoh:

[RatsoreA]

A bit different if you have a plane load of dubious characters as well.

Usually the pilot is the person of most dubious character on most private flights!

But seriously, when I ran a hunting trip in the chieftain, guns went in the wing lockers, ammo and bolts in separate pelican cases in the nose. I understand that most S/E ac below 5700 wouldn't have the luxury of external baggage lockers.

The thing I always thought was a bit much was the dubious character from the local field office charging me bulk $$$ for a bit of paper that he made using a copy/paste function!

You're right about the nanny state stuff. Do you have to write to the road transport regulators to drive your guns somewhere? No. And I would bet dollars to doughnuts that flying them somewhere would be safer and more secure than driving. I am at a loss to even imagine why we need such a regulation/restriction?

[alisoncc]

Quite a few of the guys who flew the BN2A's in TPNG some forty five years ago carried a loaded revolver in their flight bag. Came in very handy if one of the locals got a bit uppity in flight.

Seen a practical demonstration. Captain passes control to No2, and then with gun in hand pointing down the cabin states in pidgin "I will shoot the next barsteward that moves". Deathly silence.

[Pinky the pilot]

Quite a few of the guys who flew the BN2A's in TPNG some forty five years ago carried a loaded revolver in their flight bag.

And so did some who flew the BN2A's back in the 1990's.:eek:

Well.....mine was a S&W semi auto.:O

Usually the pilot is the person of most dubious character on most private flights!


Sometimes on Commercial flights too!:hmm:

[alisoncc]

Probably the same BN2A's.

http://users.on.net/~alisoncc/tpng2.jpg