Dogs as freight

[WhiskeyKilo]

G'day all,

A family friend of mine does some work for SAFE dogs, a charity which flies dogs out of remote country and mining towns for adoption all across Aus. Recently their airline sponsor who would fly the dogs for a cheap fee has cancelled their contract and thus they have no way to extract the dogs.

I would have offered my services however my CPL test isn't for a few months and airlines are quoting astronomical prices so we're all out of ideas.

Does anyone have any knowledge on the sort's of requirements to carry dogs as freight and what mobs would be okay to contact to re-gear this operation?

Cheers,
Whiskey

[onetrack]

WhiskeyKilo - Why don't you find out who in the trucking industry services the town or local mines - and when you get some contact numbers, ask if any of the truckies are happy to transport the dog/s.

Stepdaughter does FIFO and has two little dogs that she sends to a kennel she favours down in the SW of W.A., while she's away at work in S.A. The kennel is about 350km S of Perth.

A truckie based in a large SW town who does regular runs to Perth, transports the dogs to and from his Perth depot and the kennels in his truck, for $50 each time.

He loves doing it, and even lets the dogs out for a leak (on their leashes) if he's held up anywhere.

Most truckies I know are dog lovers, and enjoy transporting them if there's no holdups in their schedules by picking up or dropping off the dogs.

In SD's case, she's in direct touch by phone with the truckie, he keeps her advised as to timing, she drops the dogs at the depot just as he's leaving, for transport down South - and whenever he returns (usually around midnight) he calls in to give his reasonably precise ETA, and either she or myself and missus call around to the depot to pick up the dogs, just as he arrives.

Sometimes our timing is so good, we arrive at the trucks exact arrival time, and follow the B-double down the street to the depot, and collect the dogs as he gets out to open the main gate.

[RENURPP]

I think you will find its cheaper if the pax is travelling with them. so if you can organise an already travelling pax to claim the dog is theirs you will save a $$$ or two. Easier than it sounds I know.

[WhiskeyKilo]

Sweet, thanks for the help guys.

Secondary question: If a pilot could borrow, hire or use his own aircraft to transport the dog, would that be possible under a PPL?

[Two_dogs]

Under a PPL the only requirement is a seat belt and thorough briefing. :}

[By George]

You can carry a Rhinoceros as long as it is not 'for hire or reward'.

[WhiskeyKilo]

Under a PPL the only requirement is a seat belt and thorough briefing.

"Welcome to the flight, WOOF WOOF, BARK, GRR, lifejackets, WOOF, HOWL, BARK, BARK, emergency exits, WHINE WHINE WOOF, thank you"

[PLovett]

Nah, put 'em in the baggage hold. You can't hear 'em scream that way. :}

[redsnail]

What? Pax or dogs? ;)

[PLovett]

Both :}

[onetrack]

What kind of prices have been quoted to transport the dogs by air, if hiring your own aircraft and doing it yourself, looks attractive?? :confused:
There's got to be be some serious dollars in cost, even in a flight in a 150, for a few hours?? :suspect:

[WhiskeyKilo]

A couple hundred per dog.


When I said hiring I mean we've had a couple guys say they would lend us their plane and we'd just have to pay for fuel. Sorry for any confusion. Didn't mean forking out for everything, that would be WAY too expensive.

[Obidiah]

I heard about the particular airline dumping their arrangement with a dog re-housing charity, sad sign of the times I guess.


Between selected destinations some breeds may be included as checked in baggage quite cheaply. However most destinations fall outside the few selected destinations, additionally a number of breeds are excluded from this service.


I recently adopted a 3 year old American Staffy and freighted her from PH to AS cheapest quote was $900 most expensive $1800.


Not sure what possible solution other than to talk to the airline and find out what caused them to drop the arrangement and try and problem solve that issue if possible.

[YPJT]

recently transported a rescue pup from Geraldton to Perth Provided my own crate and the dog weighed just 3kg. Charge was $80.00 (cash only WTF?) I guess that was pretty cheap probably because I was flying on the same flight.

[Global Aviator]

Dark classes, a cane and dog can travel free...

Got to be little ways to Rory the system!

[LeadSled]

You can carry a Rhinoceros as long as it is not 'for hire or reward'.

Wrong, and has been wrong for many, many years.
Reg. 206 is the determinant, and "hire and reward" does not appear in Reg. 206
Tootle pip!!

[navajoe]

I hope you guys aren't considering carrying the dog in the cabin with you. watch out!!! ( reg 256A ):uhoh:

[skkm]

"hire and reward" does not appear in Reg. 206

"Hire or reward" appears three times by my count...

[dubbleyew eight]

can I just put a finger in the air on behalf of dogs? (not the bird, an index finger),

dog physiology is quite different from humans.
they have incredibly more sensitive senses of smell and hearing.
putting a dog in a light aircraft is an inhumanly bad thing to do.
the noise levels in small aircraft are too high for a dog to endure comfortably.
it would be like you sitting beside the speakers of an outdoor rock band for hours on end.

dont torture your dog.

I have mentioned this directly to pilots concerned.
most thankfully only do it when they know the dog is already deaf.

woof woof. end of diatribe.

[Fliegenmong]

Just take it down the local Asian market, they'll pay market price....and you no longer need worry about dog...:ok:

[Draggertail]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4ym6q9pghvqh4vATUi0AqSVtLfu2myYRUeG2xgeH NCEsAXhIf (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.inmagine.com%2Fimage-izs017213-Caricature-of-a-dog-with-angel-wings-and-a-halo.html&ei=Gt_EVOxcwb-YBYfZgPAB&bvm=bv.84349003,d.dGY&psig=AFQjCNE8v9y4ckFKqcwXNt28wdFOkn6Dtw&ust=1422274479411728)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

putting a dog in a light aircraft is an inhumanly bad thing to do.

That's got to be the biggest load of drivel that I have read on here for a while!

Dr :8

PS: ....and yes, for the record, I am well qualified to respond!

[dubbleyew eight]

....and yes, for the record, I am well qualified to respond!

so you are a dog?

I knew something was odd about you :E

[RedhillPhil]

Which reminds me...........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84503534&v=81t4iOyHksk&x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage#t=4

[kaz3g]

My Kelpie travelled all over the eastern half of Australia in the Auster with me.

It cost me $160 for the permit and she had her own set of mutt muffs to protect her hearing.

Kaz

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

A VERY well known aviator personality and grazier would ALWAYS taxy at YPKG, and all of the other places, with the advice,
"2 On Board - Me and Me Dog"

He did it for many years.....
The dog didn't seem to mind.

ONYA Mr Mac

Cheers:ok:

[ACMS]

Last time we took our Dog it was included in the baggage allow for the 3 of us. We had a total of 60 kg's allowance and the bags and Dog didn't exceed that.

That was with QF, all we had to do was provide the approved Dog container and drop him off at the Cargo shed pre flight.

Simples.

[kaz3g]

A VERY well known aviator personality and grazier would ALWAYS taxy at YPKG, and all of the other places, with the advice,
"2 On Board - Me and Me Dog"

I got a bit of a fright about half way between Tennant and the Alice in the Auster years ago. My engine began to run rough. Initially it seemed to respond to a bit of leaning and then it would run a little better full rich. It felt
and sounded like a plug but I couldn't clear it. And it got progressively worse.

I was tracking parallel with the big long bitumen watching the road trains mixing it with the tourists' caravans and panicking about what the headlines (and the Regulator) might say if I plonked down there.

I called Melb Centre and announced

"Auster BYM on climb to 7500 engine problems"

Long pause then a lovely lady from Centre responded

"Auster BYM. How many pob?"

BYM: One person, one dog

Centre: is that two POB?

BYM: Negative. One person, one dog.

Centre (note of concern) Is the dog alright?

BYM: she said I got her up here so I have to get her down!

I got all the way to Alice where a cracked insulator on a top plug was found to be the problem.

I should have tried left and right mag but I was so convinced it was a plug and a tad stressed I didn't give it a go.

Mandy was a working dog and my regular companion in the air for years. She also came to flyins with me and then, as she got older, more often waited behind for my return. She would lie outside the club house for hours without moving but as soon as I joined the circuit she would get up and wait near the hangar for me. The best flying mate I've ever had.

I bought her Mutt Muffs from the USA on the Internet and they were great. Dogs do have extremely sensitive ears and that protection is nearly essential especially for breeds like Kelpies.

Kaz

[YPJT]

ACMS, out of interest, how long ago was it you could check the dog in as part of the baggage allowance. Last week I had to call Qantas freight to book the dog in and take her to the local freight agent who pinged me the $80.

[parabellum]

There was a time when they measured the crate and charged by volume.

[Cuban Eight]

Reading CASA's advisory circular 91-045(0), it looks like a domestic pet can be carried in the passenger cabin as long as it's restrained or contained (so not to endanger people or disturb W+B), it doesn't impede emergency exit and it's number 1s and 2s are contained.

The circular quotes CASR 91.045 as the relevant regulation. I can't find 91.045 in the new CASR on the comlaw site. Could anyone direct me to it?

From how I read it, the 1988 CAR 256A states that an animal can't be in a passenger cabin unless it is an assistance animal for an impaired person. The 2001 advisory circular broadens the instances in which an animal can be in a passenger cabin to pretty much whenever there's no cargo compartment or it's not possible to put the animal in an available cargo compartment or "where the operator considers it appropriate".

I'm happy to take my mate's dog in a container in the back of a C200 series if I can see the CASR 91.045 in writing first (so I know that it exists!) because I'd really prefer not to be pulled up for a ramp check only to be quoted CAR 256A which doesn't seem to allow it.

In my naive PPL eyes, I see no operational or safety issue in having an animal suitably contained (so not to disturb W+B or people) in the back of a C200 series. However, I worry that the interpretation of "passenger compartment" could be bent by someone wanting to enforce CAR 256A if the situation is in a single compartment Cessna. So, is CAR 256A superseded by CASR 91.045 that this advisory is referencing? I'm sure it is... I just can't find damn CASR 91.045!!

[compressor stall]

The circular quotes CASR 91.045 as the relevant regulation. I can't find 91.045 in the new CASR on the comlaw site. Could anyone direct me to it?

It's been a long time since I've chased up animal regs, but a quick look at AC 91.045 shows draft September 2001, and not listed in the AC list. Only a few Part 91 rules have appeared thus far. The draftees in 2001 were probably - foolishly - expecting the regs to be finished by about then...

I am reminded of the story of when I was flying in Alaska of a pilot who landed his floatplane (beaver or 185 etc) on a river and hit a sandbar hard. He would have likely survived the impact, except for the dog that came flying forward further pushing the pilot's head into the glare shield.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

putting a dog in a light aircraft is an inhumanly bad thing to do.
the noise levels in small aircraft are too high for a dog to endure comfortably.

Rubbish! :confused:

[FarCanard]

I can just see the look on the controllers face when hearing all the barking in the background on departure call.

[megle2]

2016 and all us aviation experts can't agree if we can legally take the wife's little mini poodle with us.

[flywatcher]

Beware of doggy flatulence in small aircraft!!

[Cuban Eight]

It's been a long time since I've chased up animal regs, but a quick look at AC 91.045 shows draft September 2001, and not listed in the AC list. Only a few Part 91 rules have appeared thus far. The draftees in 2001 were probably - foolishly - expecting the regs to be finished by about then...

Cheers for explaining that. So CAR 256A must still stand then and we're technically not allowed to carry an animal, even if suitably contained and restrained, in a single compartment light aircraft in Australia? That's how I interpret it but I would be very pleased to be informed otherwise.

Is the POH-designated cargo place in a light aircraft considered part of the passenger compartment if there's no bulkhead between them...? E.g. C206

Picking apart these sorts of regulation interpretations is a nightmare :ugh:

[kaz3g]

Cheers for explaining that. So CAR 256A must still stand then and we're technically not allowed to carry an animal, even if suitably contained and restrained, in a single compartment light aircraft in Australia? That's how I interpret it but I would be very pleased to be informed otherwise.

Is the POH-designated cargo place in a light aircraft considered part of the passenger compartment if there's no bulkhead between them...? E.g. C206

Picking apart these sorts of regulation interpretations is a nightmare

256a1(b) allows an animal to be carried in the cabin without a container if permit conditions are satisfied. I had a harness for Mandy which was secured to a rear seatbelt. She st on a canvas sheet covered with an absorbent pad and I had a lead secured so she couldn't move around a lot.

Makes sense not to have her become a projectile in the event of a sudden stop but she found the incontinence pad a bit embarrassing.

She was never air sick and she never soiled her pad even when I left her in the aircraft overnight at Cobar.

Kaz

[Sunfish]

Once loaded dogs into a B727 hold when the loaders were on strike. It was sheer cruelty both APU noise and lack of human comfort and support.

[gerry111]

"She was never air sick and she never soiled her pad even when I left her in the aircraft overnight at Cobar."


Kaz, If you ever write a book about your Auster adventures (particularly with Mandy) I'll buy the first copy!:)

[hiwaytohell]

I'm with you FTDK... my dogs have been happily flying with me for years. I had one whose first flight was at 10 weeks, flew regularly and lived 16 years, he loved to go traveling, he suffered no ill effects and his hearing was perfect.

Just remember to do a 'walkies' before take-off if going any distance.

[gerry111]

"Just remember to do a 'walkies' before take-off if going any distance."


That includes me too. :ooh:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Quote:
Is the POH-designated cargo place in a light aircraft considered part of the passenger compartment if there's no bulkhead between them...? E.g. C206

Quick sniff test.
If a snake or bird were to escape their container and get into the pax (or pilot) area during a landing, think there would be a drama? Apply this logic to CAR 256A.

Must admit, I was given a lost of requirements last time I asked for a permit (including risk management assessments) that made me wonder if they were just making it so difficult that I wouldn't bother...