Let's stand up AGAINST P2F. Sign the petition.

[P40Warhawk]

Dear fellow pilots,

I have been posting quiet some comments here and there. And I was hard on some people here who justify P2F. I could say I am sorry, but to be honest , I am not sorry.

We should all say NO against P2F. Don't think that it all has no influence, because if I say no, someone else would say YES anyway.

Every person who says NO against P2F ''Job Offers'' count. Slowly more and more airlines disqualify people who participated in P2F. That is good.

So lets sign the petition against P2F. See the link below and also watch the other links.
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/p2f_must_stop/?dIHwWib&pv=65

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=q9Os86ZBkA4&x-yt-cl=84503534
PAY to FLY documentary from Switzerland.

and not to forget the Facebook pagina STOP PAY TO FLY:
https://www.facebook.com/stop.paytofly?fref=ts

Think about your future. How much is your well being worth and that of your fellow pilots with and without jobs and not to forget general safety in the sky and on the ground.

[BAe 146-100]

I think the guys in Emirates are doing okay who did the p2f in Lion Air, some of them are flying 777s now. :ok:

Enjoy taking the noble route into aviation, im sure there might be at least one guy out there who thinks your helping everybody's terms and conditions by being a cabin crew when your a qualified pilot.

[Officer Kite]

p40 warhawk i admire your ambition and fully agree pay2fly is a disgrace. However I think your efforts are in vain, the "must be a pilot at all costs" mentality as someone else said on here in a different thread has ruined and is still ruining this once highly noble profession.

[P40Warhawk]

Good luck then with you Pay Cut BAE in future or losing your job because some idiot who is willing to pay to sit in your seat.

Id rather be now Cabin Crew then that I pay to sit in RHS.

I respect my fellow pilots career and that of mine. But it seems that you dont care about your future.

Yes many guys went from Lion to EK and other ME airlines. But now more and more airlines start to disqualify people who had gone that way.

All in all it is dangerous. People working for nothing. Financial stress. Because no salary, they have to fund also their living expenses. But since they dont want to waste to much money on living, the quality of food is also not great, which will also worsen their physical condition / concentration, which has effect on flight safety.

Talking about the Lion Air boys and girls. The old contracts were not that bad actually. Atleast proper salaries. But still yes P2F. Which makes me and many other people sick.
Even slaves had it better in the old days. They had at least not to pay to work for their master.

I also know people who gone the P2F route and now fly for good Airlines in Europe. 777, A320's, 737's, A330. But it is the principle and the thought behind all this what is disgraceful.

Again. I am happy with being an FA instead of sitting jobless at home or pay to work. And I am not to arrogant to do this job. In meanwhile I am hoping for my chance to become FO in this airline I work for. Now few FA's and Ramp Agents are in training and soon to be launched on the line. And that WITHOUT paying for their TR. And having a good Salary.

[P40Warhawk]

And that Officer Kite,

And that is why every signature counts. So sign the petition. Doing nothing will for sure not change anything.

I said NO to 2 ''job offers'' where I had to pay. Someone else said yes to it. I know that. I could have had by now approx 400 hours B717 or 500 hrs B737CL if I said yes to those ''offers''.

But I dont care. I am not selfish. But I always think about the long run. Not just short run.

[Officer Kite]

Just as a side note to anyone reading this and thinking of doing a p2f scheme, obviously in the hope that after 500 hours or whatever else you can apply to the big boys on a better contract. I would be very careful with that, this p2f nonsense has been going on a while and has not been very popular among the pilot community worldwide, these pilots who have despised it for so long now may be getting to the stage at which they're being offered management positions in their respective airlines. The managers who accepted p2f the past couple of years may very well not be in their positions in the future (people change positions all the time), with that position being taken by someone who had to struggle to get their foot on the aviation ladder because of p2f.

My point is that p2f is not popular among pilots, and those pilots when given management positions WILL think twice about employing you so I would be careful !

[P40Warhawk]

Pay for TR with job after TR aint pay 2 fly. It is still not perfect, but Paying for LT is that freakin illness where I am against.
Ryan Air you pay for TR, but then you will fly without paying for your experience. Same with Wizz.

And what you say Kite. I speak with many pilots. And all of them hate people who did LT crap.

[appfo09]

P2F is against un-employed pilots.

It should be stopped immediately otherwise European Skies are in danger.

Aviation is our passion, love, future and all P2F schemes would not prevent us from doing what is right to stop this unfair and dangerous game.

It is slowly slowly trying to kill potential, professional and valuable pilots who are trying to get their first job with an airline.

Our words will pass from pilot to pilot, mouth to mouth until this unfair P2F system dies forever and ever.

Now is the right time to act !!!:ok:

[P40Warhawk]

Exactly That is how it is.

More and more among us start to realize it. Never give up in our protest against these practices.

[Caboclo]

Signing petitions does absolutely nothing. I took my stand by quitting the industry. Best move I ever made.

[P40Warhawk]

The fact that I bring this under attention helps already a bit. And every bit counts.

But I have lot of respect for your choice. Must have been not easy for you.

[Veren]

Paying twice the market value of a TR, not receiving a paycheck during training, being asked to pay all housing/moving/paperwork expenses out of your own pocket, being forced into a permanent contractor position, etc .. Ryanair is as close to P2F as one can get without actually crossing the line. But hey, shiny jet syndrome beats common sense every time.

Oh, did you read that they increased the flat fee for the TR by another 1000€? Must be the ever rising fuel and training cost ... oh wait .... :mad:

I have signed the petition, with the vain hope that it perhaps might change something. Regardless of its futility, I feel we should always continue the debate and hear from both sides. Anyone reading these comments should feel like they learnt something and perhaps make a better, more informed choice in the long run. I believe that should be the main goal, as we can't rely on anyone but the current and next generation of entry level pilots to change our attitude towards employment & slavery.

Moral of any aviation story - Lads & lasses, go to uni first, get an education, and don't put all eggs in the aviation basket; You can beat mr O'leary off at any point in your life should you feel so inclined.

[pilot4eva]

I've signed the petition too!Flydubai's scheme in association with CAE is also type of P2F....never expected an ME airline to do that.I 'd rather fly a Cessna in africa for peanuts and progress accordingly than P2F!:ok:

[b737air]

In the past two years since I got my CPL/IR I've been seeing so many pilots paying to fly just only in my country. I have to say that I will never board a plane as a passenger if I knew the pilot is paying to fly (I was colleague with some of them). The major risk the managers of this companies undertake is that if the passengers find out who is flying their plane, they will definetely avoid that air carrier and in this manner they lose PAX (and they don't want that). SO, that's why I spread the word about this practice and why is dangerous for their safety.
We, pilots, cannot change the mentality of our fellow colleagues for not paying to fly :=. They are to greedy :E, to close-minded to even consider the others. It's an education aspect.
Only a legislative document to enforce the interdiction of this practice can help us. So that's why I signed the petition! Did you? In Australia is forbidden! Why can't be the same in Europe also?

[TizerTheAppetizer]

I have spoken to some P2F 'pilots' and they justify their actions thus: we already pay for our training, so P2F is an extension of this.

This is wrong.

Paying for your own training is just about acceptable, and remember, there are many professions where you get your training paid for you.

Once trained - circa 18 months and £80k later (£130k integrated) - should YOU really pay a company to fly.

This is so degrading to our profession, but as the writer above has already said, without legislation, we'll have to rely on training captains and recruiters in reputable airlines to BLACKLIST pilots who have used P2F.

[B737900er]

Guys, When HR recruit pilots they only look at how many hours you have and put you up for selection.

When you are getting interviewed they have no idea what your previous TC's were. All one has to do is say they were lucky enough to be on a paid contract if asked.

The only way this will stop, is if pilot unions, state authorities and the tax man gets involved. I suggest a letter to the tax man will shake it up a lot quicker.

[Officer Kite]

Well if you have someone coming from lionair coming through the door it's pretty much a given they they paid to fly.

[Superpilot]

I am a P2Fer from 2011 back when it cost a fraction of the price of today. I'm not overly proud of it but only bit the cherry after the trend had already been set by hundreds of others. In fact, at my previous airline there were 10 guys P2Fing having paid 3 x what I did 3 years ago. What does this tell you? It's getting worse, not better!

I've had 4 positions as a pilot since 2011 and more recently 3 job offers (based at my airport of choice) more or less in the same month. During the interviews I was asked how I got my experience on type. The interviewers were as old school as they come and didn't raise a single eyebrow. The trend has been set, they know the reality of the situation and they expect nothing else from new pilots. As one chief pilot put it, "well it's either that or pay horrendous amounts of money to be a cadet, right?" of course he's right!

I used to despise P2F but given the monopoly that exists regarding recruitment of new pilots (CTC / Oxford and other big schools), P2F becomes the only mechanism to get ahead for most of us. We're not all cut out to be trolly dollies for several years either (pride, cost of living <> salary or whatever the reason might be)

[pec00]

The truth is that who has money does that and afterwards gets good jobs too.
Im an experienced military pilot and companies prefer young guys with p2f experience and all the proper paperwork done instead of good experience.
Its all about you were born: rich or nothing

[P40Warhawk]

Ow is this how you think about Flight Attendants? Superpilot : We're not all cut out to be trolly dollies for several years eitherr. Very respectful to your colleagues in the Cabin. Nice mentality. Would not like to work with people who think like that about their crew. We are all a team. Everyone is as important as the other one. Its Called CRM.

Yes some recruiters dont give a damn about how you obtained your experience, but I heard also more and more recruiters from respectable airlines who seriously not even consider boys and girls who have done P2F. And that comes finally MORE and MORE.

You can sit back and do nothing against it and just accept everything as it is, or you try to do something against it. And that is what I am telling. We have to stand up AGAINST these practices.

You are in your 4th company you mentioned. How do you like it when you got a job with your experience already under your belt, and then you company decides to change course and says,, hey what the hell? Why should I pay that Ace Superpilot to sit in that RHS if I could get there also someone in that RHS which I dont have to pay. Saves on Salary and training costs. So you get kicked out. Again you have to search for a new job. And maybe have to work in some :mad: country somewhere in the world, where the conditions to live and work are horrible.

Slaves at least did not have to pay their Master to work for them. These practices are even WORSE then Slavery.

Besides your respectable nickname you give to us Flight Attendants '' Trolly Dollies'' there are other jobs which might get you closer to RHS position.
Dispatcher, Ramp Agent. Just a few examples.

And also many programs in less civilized countries where CRM is not as good as in Western world, you as P2F guy are not even allowed to fly the plane. Just paper pusher or RT, with MAYBE a bit of luck the capt. let you be flap and gear operator.
And that after paying 45-90K eu. You still dont know how to fly that Shiny Jet.

So what PEC says is true. If we accept such programs, NOT the best pilots sit in RHS but the ones with the biggest wallet.

Because obtaining your F ATPL is not super hard. Just asks some studying. Also learning to fly is not super hard. As long as you are not retarted and have a bit of hand eye coordination you can obtain your licenses.

Myself I worked my ass off to pass all exams first attempt. And not only by clicking through the QB, but also studied the books. Passed skill test first attempt. And all of that did not get me a job.

I know of a guy who was not taking theory very serious. Failed quit some exams. Had to retake them. But his dad has money and paid another 45K for his son on P2F program. I am not saying he is a bad pilot. I know he flies good, but you can see, with money you can advance. Without money. What I dont have, NOT, because someone is willing to pay instead. I will NOT CAPITULATE . I was barely able to finish my training because financial situation which was not that good. It came all from the last money of my parents and my sister. I worked hard as mentioned. Disciplined but I get no job because I dont have money. I dont say I am THE ACE, but I have huge passion for flying, and extremely ambitious, and willing to work hard and loyal to be a good employee, as long as the airline offers proper T&C's. But I just cannot advance in carreer. Though I am very happy to be Trolly Dolly. Here comes forward that Safety is not taken seriously by airlines, by taking on just people with money instead of knowledge and skills.

I am happy that more an more people start to understand what I mean. Instead of being Ignorant .

[newb1112]

We're not all cut out to be trolly dollies for several years either (pride, cost of living <> salary or whatever the reason might be)

So you think that there is more pride in paying to get into the RHS, a job 90% of people have to work incredibly hard to get, than in working for an airline as cabin crew?

Unbelievable. Please don't answer, it's rhetorical.

[P40Warhawk]

Cmon. P2F programs, you sign up for program. Do some funny assessment and start ''training''.

After you got your 500 hours , you get kicked out for the next :mad: who is willing to pay.

[J74]

I agree with you against the P2f scheme but I'd like just to discuss some of your points with some of my ideas.
Besides that is if I understood correctly, you are from Lithuania, ironically where present the BAA, the biggest hungry system looking people to come and pay TR and LT, one of the bigger aviation cancer centred there!

Yes some recruiters dont give a damn about how you obtained your experience, but I heard also more and more recruiters from respectable airlines who seriously not even consider boys and girls who have done P2F. And that comes finally MORE and MORE.

I don't think so, even if I would like to dream that,but if you know , please let me know and write here the names of these companies at least peoples know fact and start to be "afraid" to get involved in these programs.

How do you like it when you got a job with your experience already under your belt, and then you company decides to change course and says,, hey what the hell?

In my experience and what i saw around, believe me your point is valid just for very few companies...believe me, no company fire a valid experience pilot to be replaced with an incompetent pilot. These seats are pre-allocated..
Not all P2f are incompetent....mostly have to pass some real screenings process, and if not you'll be kicked out after a bit if your performance is bad in the simulator or during first flights check!
Look, I don't think Captains like to do the double job and be vigilant all the the time!

And maybe have to work in some :mad: country somewhere in the world, where the conditions to live and work are horrible.

Why you are so discriminant versus some countries? anyway I would like to know which are these countries you referred to...
And remember in your point of view, I'm sure i'm working in a ":mad: country" but this country believe me give me a respectful contract and they respect pilot position.

Because obtaining your F ATPL is not super hard. Just asks some studying. Also learning to fly is not super hard. As long as you are not retarted and have a bit of hand eye coordination you can obtain your licenses.

Again I disagree with you...
-Atpl subject of course you can memorize the questions, bt then you will do the double work if you land in a job.
-is not some study, oh well depends on how you interpret the verb "to study"
is 14 subject, full of stuff!
Fly is hard...if it wasn't every one could make it, in real just few make it!
and I'm not speaking about medical req. ect....but still lot of pilot, experienced not passing the SIM....so please be more respectful with your words to our and your future profession if you want to do it.
We don't have to degrade everything!
Flying is a skill and require lot of skills!

[J74]

I like your effort and your position againdt P2f but nothing will change i think!
prices are 5 times more than years back, this is a clear chime to understand why that!

And I'm just afraid you'll laughing to yourself and forget your own goal!
Your route and determination are good and hope you get soon the job you desire...but sometimes the same route, close to pilots, is the route bring you far away from the internal position career change!
If I can suggest you, as you mentioned, better ramp agent, dispacher than cabin crew job if you want to make contacts and have more chances to get the flight deck!

[P40Warhawk]

There are some countries in the world where you not wish to be.
And what I meant with :mad: country I meant also the bad Terms and Conditions.

I did my training in BAA. The Ab Initio training was all pretty good as far as I have experienced. But yes they also offer P2F programs. Heard about 70K for TR plus LT. I dont like that too about BAA. My training was not even over and one lady at reception was asking me which TR I would choose to do after ab initio training. I said to her. I do that one which my employer chooses me to do and pays for my training.
They offered me also 2 P2F programs after graduation. I said NO to it.

Yes of course you need to have skills, but flying itself is not the only part of being a pilot. Its also about how is your mental capacity. Also in emergency situation. How can you deal with the workload? Can you make decisions in difficult situations?

Recruiters from airlines in EU I am talking about. I cannot tell which ones. But I know something is moving a bit.

In the Airline I work for it happens quit regularly. Upgrades from FA to FO. So I bet on that. I give it some time. It is a good airline to work for with good terms and conditions for its pilots, so its worth the waiting. The future will tell if that was the right gamble.Maybe it pays off or Maybe it never will, but at least I have tried it. But I wont gamble with money in the hope I get better job after P2F. 500 hours on Type is nice, but then you are still competing with many with same TR with 1000's of hours. Why would they take you with 500 hours instead of that HIGHLY experienced other FO with 1000's hours. Only reason which they might take in consideration is MAYBE the pay scale . So again JOBLESS with another 70K minus , plus the debt you already had from initial training.

I am not from Lithuania. I am from the Netherlands.

I keep fighting against it, and will NOT give in to it.
You can say I am naive , or stupid, but its my choice. I also think about my career. Treat others how you would like to get treated yourself.

[J74]

yes understand....
just want to clear more in deep the ":mad: country", understand what you mean but I repeat to you, I'm far away from Europe when I work, in a third word country, but they pay my tickets to commute, they give me a house,Sim and medical payed... and give me a decend salary, almost the Captain salary range here in Europe(not counting the biggest national companies)...so as I said before they maybe still a ":mad: country" like you said, but I have eveything better than staying in Europe in some companies like SPA, WIZZAIR,RYAN, NAS, and so on....
anyway I hope your effort will be payed back soon or later...
but let me ask something, sound me strange as I see you determined !
why you didn't tried to make some contact on the net and then tried to go outside of Europe and boost your chance to find a job???

I tell you that cause i saw lot of people find their first job like that, and like i did years before.
Of course someone had TR before but others payed at later stage after they secure a job contract.

[P40Warhawk]

Well working in :mad: country but good T&C's is then alright.
I meant living and working in ****ty country with even more ****ty Salaries.

I dont need to work particularly in EU. I am willing to work anywhere in the world. Tried many ways of approach to airlines. Different tactics, but just not only sending copy paste CV, but made it specifically for those airlines I applied for.

Nothing worked out. Also offered to work first ground ops in that airline to learn more about that company and showed my willingness of being loyal. Nothing worked so far. But as said. Giving up aint an option for me.

No such thing as impossible.

The Sky ain't my limit. It is my home.

[Tango Romeo A320]

I think that passengers from several European companies should think to use trains or cars instead of planes as these well known companies have p2f guys on the RHS for already several years!
I don't think they are bad pilots... As mentioned earlier they all passed exams, skill tests and assessments plus sim check LPC/OPC.

The scheme itself is not very nice for the pilot community but people having enough funds to do it just do it in order to get the minima.

There are only few companies taking cadets low hours and no jet experience.
And even if you are called by such company and pay for the assessment the job is not even guaranted.

The only possibility is to be at the right place at the right moment and meet the good person!

[Superpilot]

Very respectful to your colleagues in the Cabin. Nice mentality. Would not like to work with people who think like that about their crew. We are all a team. Everyone is as important as the other one. Its Called CRM.

Stop being a chump, the term "Trolly Dolly" isn't that bad and proves nothing about my mentality towards colleagues in the cabin. I was simply making the point that not every one wants to do or can do that job. That's not what we educated ourselves for and that's not what we paid for. The alternatives as you put it:

...there are other jobs which might get you closer to RHS position.
Dispatcher, Ramp Agent. Just a few examples.

You really do live in some kind of fantasy world, for every dispatcher or ramp agent job there are many many more pilot jobs and it's a very poor method of getting "closer to a RHS job" as every tom, dick and harry would do it, if it truly worked.

Yes some recruiters dont give a damn about how you obtained your experience, but I heard also more and more recruiters from respectable airlines who seriously not even consider boys and girls who have done P2F. And that comes finally MORE and MORE.

I provided you real world examples of my job and interview experiences which cannot be unique. All you can throw at me is "I heard this and I heard this".

The rest of your rant is pure BS, I'm not going to respond because you're a little upset. I do however, wish to comment on the below:

...NOT the best pilots sit in RHS but the ones with the biggest wallet

...you can see, with money you can advance.


This is true. Money rules. But guess what, it was MY money, earned with MY own blood, sweat and tears working outside aviation for nearly 10 years. I could've spent that time as a FA but I was wise enough to realise what works. You clearly have your views on what is right and wrong. I'm not saying P2F is right, am simply pointing out that is a viable alternative to what your doing. The idea that we are all spoilt and getting the money from rich daddies because we have no talent is a fantasy of those who cannot afford what it takes.

[Officer Kite]

This thread has rapidly turned into a childish spat from which there will be no clear winner to a neutral observer.

As far as I'm concerned it should end here, if you disagree with P2F and feel that you want to do something (however minor) then sign the petition. If not, then don't sign it. End of.

[P40Warhawk]

All I wanted to do here is promoting Stop Pay to Fly Facebook page and promoting the petition. It is a pitty that we cannot talk to eachother in a normal way.

I am also maybe the blame, but I just say what I think. I am to honest maybe. Straight to the point. Exactly what we are known for > Dutchies.

[lansen]

@P40

I generally support your case. And I respect you for stating out things in your honest way. Though, I have a feeling about you just being too proud about yourself. Also it feels like you are having problems admitting that there actually are quite A LOT of success stories regarding people who chose the p2f way.
In general I believe that everybody eventually will find a flying job. If it is as an FI on Cessnas or on a triple seven in an airline. The point is, how long is one willing to wait for that. I myself am 27, turning 28 this year. If I **** up the Ryanair assessment on thursday, I am actually considering P2F. Why? Because I've seen the success stories first hand. These are not friends friends. These are my friends. People I went to flight school with or people I met on the way through my flight training. One of them, flying a 777 for Qatar Airways, after spending 40k€ for 500 hours on a 73CL in Morocco. Another guy spent 30k€ for 500 hours on an ATR is now flying for LGW on a Dash. Full-time of course, with a very attractive salaries.

So why shouldn't I?

Are really the pilots to blame? All those persons who spend money for p2f?

In my opinion no. It's pax, who are only out for the cheapest tickets. Not caring about what this in the end will do to the business. All those average Joes, flying for 25€ from Stockholm to Milan.
This leaves us, the pilots, with no other choice. Either gambling on getting a wildcard for some hiring airline or actually to continue investing in ourselves and making us more attractive, then the rest who are sitting on their 200-250tt after finishing flight school.

You will never change this trend if you blame the wrong folks. There will always be somebody who pays for this stuff. Not because they do it for fun, but because there is no other choice!

[4Screwaircrew]

I have signed this petition, as a TRE I have had the chance to see the products from a number of these schemes, they have worked hard; but some have no concept of what was required of a line pilot. This is my main objection to these schemes, at some of the airlines no effective training takes place beyond the TR, they sit in a seat for 500 hours and are still not an effective F.O. at the end; yet I have flown with properly trained F.O.s with less than 100 hours on type who were. The properly trained guys and girls will continue to develop and build knowledge, the products of the substandard training regimes will continue to be ballast, struggling to overcome the disadvantage they were put in by going P2F in a system where they flew but were not trained.

Not all schemes are the same and some do provide proper training, however it is my opinion that the industry would be a better place without them.

[P40Warhawk]

Lansen,

I also know of few guys who are now flying proper airlines after doing P2F. Wizz A320, TAP A320 soon A330. One flying in other airline in EU on 777. So yes of course there are many succes stories

And yes of course those people who pay 9 eu for trip London to Girona are also the blame. Somewhere a company has to make money. Or Save money. I completely understand it.

Im really sorry to read that you did not make it with FR :( . Although you had to pay for Own TR, I dont call that P2F, and in general the conditions are quit ok. Not the best, but with them you can make in quit a short time many flight hours and then you can move on to another company or you stay and make upgrade to CDR.

I really hope you will find something soon.

About myself and my pride. Yes I am someone who does not give up his ideals. And MAYBE it brings me respect and because that a job in the RHS, or maybe it never will bring me anything. But giving up aint an option for me.

Earlier I mentioned that what 4Screw is mentioning again. Some programs maybe very good, but there is also a lot of crap in that market. Its up to you if you consider such path to find a good one. One thing for sure, if you want to go that path, NEVER go via MSD.

Best of the worst are I think Germania or via Eagle Jet some deals. But of course I am not supportive to that as everyone obviously can see from me.

Its up to anyone which path to choose. But I hope somehow that this Cancer will extinguish like it did in for example France. There its Illegal. Same in Australia. In Germany ''only'' 1 does these kind of practices. As mentioned Germania. But hopefully here in Germany it will also be banned.

Because paying 60K for RHS? WTF. That is serious a lot of money. That is even more then what I spend on my initial Ab Initio integrated course.

[P40Warhawk]

Then I missunderstood what you said. Well I really cross my fingers for you Lansen. Because that is one of the better opportunities to get useful flight hours in your logbook, and opening doors for you in the future by prestige airlines.

And your training will be of high quality in CAE.

I also applied in FR, but of course never got an invitation. Though I am still in system. But did not do my training in CTC or OX. So will most probably never happen to receive invitation. But who knows.

[BAe 146-100]

If P40 had the cash for it, he would be doing it, and herein lies why this argument is pointless. All the people I have met and also on here who are against this successful and proven method of advancing yourself up the ladder are in the main the ones who can't afford it, and realistically would snap at the chance to do it if they had that spare 50K lying there, I don't think P40 could look himself with a straight face and say anything but.

But of course he will deny it, and go on another one of his rants, repeating the same stuff about slavery like he seems to do on every post. I guess those ''slaves'' are pretty happy at Qatar and Emirates. :D

[P40Warhawk]

No I would not lie if I would even then say no to it.

If I would have the money I would still NOT do it. I have strong principles. If you know me, then you would believe me. But this is a forum where you cannot really get to know each other.

If I was just owning lot of money I would buy a plane for myself. Something with pressurized cabin. I have no shiny jet syndrome. I love flying. And in what kind of aircraft that would be I really dont care.

I have a strong character , and I will not snap when I would have had the money.

So dont accuse me on that if you dont know me BAE.

[Will Swinburn]

Hi P40.

To give you some background. I fly for an airline and have a business in the flight training industry. I started the business because I'm very passionate about strengthening the bridge between flight training and commercial aviation. If you have a deep passion for something, it's very easy to channel the resultant energy in the wrong direction. In my opinion, that's what you've done.

I agree with you, on a very basic level. P2F isn't good. But you tend to come across as a bit of an extremist or live wire. If you really are as passionate as you claim to be, convert that energy to something positive. Think about how anybody could realistically stop this practice? You speak of illegalities in Australia, well investigate that, properly, be analytical and try to utilise what you learn.

Consider who is motivated to stop such practices and why? Seek their assistance. You mentioned airlines who pro-actively discriminate against students who have gone through the P2F route. Whilst I question the reality of this, I urge you to contact those recruiters and see if they have any motivation to help you in your quest.

Channeling your energy on here probably isn't that smart. Are you trying to capture those going into training? Look at the advertising section of pprune, is this the demographic you're hoping to appeal to?

I have to get back to helping graduates get jobs now. I applaud your cause and wish you success but if you continue ranting, you risk coming across as bitter, not someone who is actually trying to make serious headway on a worthwhile cause.

[sunside]

One piece of advice, after reading your petition: You should get the facts straight, and point out why the general public need such a law. When it sounds like a frustrated aspiring pilot is venting his anger, that does no good to convince the public or politicians.

Especially this part is just not true, if you look at it from a global perspective:
In the meantime, thousands of qualified and unemployed European professional pilots are unable to find a job partly because, out of corporate greed, those airlines choose to use pilots who pay to work.

The fact is, the total number of pilot jobs is not altered by the existence of P2F. If at all, it will increase the number of jobs because flying becomes cheaper, so more passengers will choose the plane over other means of transport, thus creating more demand for pilots.

Another fact is, you cannot blame the passengers for choosing the lowest airfare, because even if an airline was charging higher prices, that would just increase their profit, they would not give the money to their pilots if they don't have to.

The only way this can be stopped is by labour laws, which are unfortunately not harmonized in the EU, but a matter of each national state. Thus enabling the airlines to do "forum shopping" for the lowest possible standards. The other way is by way of labour relations, i.e. existing pilots of an airline solidarising with their weakest colleagues, and taking action to create collective labour agreements which prohibit P2F.

[J74]

watch?v=q9Os86ZBkA4&feature=youtu.be

[P40Warhawk]

Well the chances are really big that you stay after training. But that is what I heard from pilots who work for FR. That I cannot confirm.

Otherwise it is only that you pay a lot of money for your TR. True on that.

[juniour jetset]

come on guys keep the pay 2 fly going so the rest of us can have cheap flights around Europe! think of all the family and business reltaionships that you are helping along teh way.

[JumboJet1999]

Well i've cheated a little bit and signed the petition 6 times with all 6 of my different e-mail addresses.. :8

However I do think that 100,000 signers is a little optimistic..

[cefey]

It´s up to employes and management to stop p2f.
Once no "good" companies hire p2f guys - p2f will go away.

Once Captains deny to fly with flaps operator - p2f will go away.

PILOTS should unite against "must-be-in-shine-jet-no-matter-what" babies!

Who will benefit? Pilots, management of all "good" airliners. The only one to lose here is p2f companies and low-cost.

Whoever is in union - talk to them. Have a stike against p2f! It´s not that hard to stop p2f, as long as pilots are willing to do so!

[P40Warhawk]

Well done Jumbo ;) .

Absolutely true what you say there Cefey.

Together we can do something against it. The thing is, a proper research should be done also to conclude that many programs are of low quality which has bad influences on Airline operation safety. If Airlines understand that, then they also will stop P2F.

[momo95]

Those 2 private jet guys who flew around the world in 3 days or whatever it was seemed quite naive to do so without reporting anything, I know they were fearful of losing their jobs but they had nothing to lose. It comes to a point where you have to ask yourself, do i want to fly this thing and risk death or stay alive ? ...

[Luke SkyToddler]

Much as I hate P2F, that petition is the most amateur looking thing I've ever seen in my life. Crying about Astraeus, seriously, didn't they go bust in 2011?

We, professional air pilots, are writing to you to draw your attention on the practice that consists in selling flight hours packages to both professional airline pilots and multi-pilot helicopter crews.Indeed, it is abnormal to have pilots invest vast amounts of money to fill their logbooks flying airliners while carrying passengers.
I presume it's been written in French and run through Google Translate or something, but seriously, that looks like it was written by a 6 year old who can't spell, punctuate, or use capitals. And what's up with the random highlighting of random words and phrases?

You do yourself more harm than good by pestering the politicians with that kind of amateur nonsense, just makes you look completely unprofessional. At least get the lawyer from BALPA or SNLP to draft up a copy that is presentable.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Not only is the petition badly written but it will never succeed anyway. Someone somewhere will offer to pay just to get ahead of the queue. How do you think this all started in the first place? Pilot unity does not exist sadly and accountants rule!

[P40Warhawk]

Doing nothing will also change Nothing.

At least die Trying. If you never shoot, you will NEVER win.

[CockpitSeeker]

Hello everyone, I feel like there's an interesting conversation to be had here! :)

Golfdriver: I'd really like to see you put something on the table before spitting in the soup...

@Luke SkyToddler: Hi Luke, thank you for your inputs on the petition! I am the 6 year old who can't spell, punctuate, or use capitals that "published" it :D.

I'm sorry that it appears amateur to you, but the sentence you quoted is grammatically correct and conveys the intended meaning.

Worth mentioning, the ECA (that represent you to some degree) submitted the petition for approval at the 26-27th General Assembly before all the 37 Member Associations (including BALPA btw) that concluded with "a general and warm consensus in supporting the initiative".

They didn't mention anything wrong YET and perhaps I will hear from them soon for me to modify it :}

In the meantime, please give me your version of a proper petition and I will introduce your modifications pronto!

By the way, I need your opinion on the spanish (https://secure.avaaz.org/es/petition/p2f_must_stop/), deutch (https://secure.avaaz.org/de/petition/p2f_must_stop/) and french (https://secure.avaaz.org/fr/petition/p2f_must_stop/) version as well (my spanish was a bit rusty at the time of the writting).

Astraeus no longer existing doesn't erase the practice they perpetuated. This is why I let it. Consider that in the p2f fight, we also have an online repository (http://www.cockpitseeker.com/wp-content/uploads/goodies/p2f/) to gather evidences: shall I erase the evidence every time an airline fills for bankruptcy as well?

As for highlighting random words, I did it to mess with you, obviously! /sarc

@sunside: how an airline that doesn't do p2f is supposed to compete with an airline that does cash on pilots? It's called "unfair competition" and will destroy jobs, not "increase the number of jobs" as you said (go ask the regular airlines and majors).

Whatever. With all the elements I see before me since 2011 (and they are numerous) , I can tell you this: we WILL have P2F stop for good, notwithstanding what the haters, no-doers, slackers, party poopers and Stephane Hoinville can tell.

Whine. Or chose to act.

[pilot4eva]

While we on one hand are trying to find ways to eliminate P2F....People like Flygosh continue to spoil this industry.Take a look at the Latest P2F contract he is offering:yuk:
Fly Gosh: Self Sponsored ATR Direct Entry First Officer - 2 Year Job Contract ( Low hour ) (http://www.flygosh.com/2014/12/self-sponsored-atr-direct-entry-first.html#more)
There are always idiots willing to do this so when is it going to stop?:=

[P40Warhawk]

At least it seams you get salary there ;) . But as we all know, Fly Gosh comes up with horrible ''jobs''. So I cannot imagine that this " Offer " is any good.
To little info. You get 3500USD per month, 350USD housing allowances, but where is it then? Very vague.
Training costs?

[pilot4eva]

But those benifits are from the second year!I sure hope its not in libya!

[J74]

At least it seams you get salary there . But as we all know, Fly Gosh comes up with horrible ''jobs''. So I cannot imagine that this " Offer " is any good.
To little info. You get 3500USD per month, 350USD housing allowances, but where is it then? Very vague.
Training costs?

P40;),
don't fall in TRAP! Like someone said here, the Benefits are only from the 2nd Year and believe me the SALARY is really a CRAP !!!!

-Africa (usually is not MENA or NAR so forget Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Morocco), I think could be a region in Center/West Africa.

- Isn't so cheap like someone could think. If you want nice food or sometime eat in some American Fast Food, like Pizza hut, KFC, MD and so on, you-ill be surprised about the price, double of what we use to in EU.

- African Companies usually Jet Operator, pay more than that and they give you a decent place where to live as well as other benefits! Average Salary for a FO is between 4000/5000 USD NET>

So if someone have got the rating it worth to go there knock some doors, boost your chances and after getting and passed the assessment, you're in!

[PPRuNeUser0173]

@CockpitSeeker......this is just a repeat of something that was tried 5 years ago and it didn't succeed then so why should it now? FYI I signed the petition and a fat load of good it did (not).
As I said there will always be someone who will pay just to get ahead of you and that's one of the reasons why it will never go away sadly.


In my day I just signed a bond and agreed to stay for the appropriate time but there were those that signed the said bond then jumped ship for something better - and to make matters worse they did not honour that bond.


There is an element in the pilot community that will not honour what was agreed so bonding changed to the company taking a loan with a bank then handing it to you the pilot to pay off. It then morphed into the pilot paying from the beginning.


It is a dilemma for most pilots and I have known guys sign a bond for a turbo prop on a Monday and walk out into a jet job on Friday and conveniently forgot the arrangement that they had entered into 5 days previously.


Enjoy the soup..........

[P40Warhawk]

No I wont fall for such "deals" like that one of Fly Gosh. Everyone knows that you get screwed there.

That is indeed respectless what happened there Golf. Those guys who did that are also the blame to :mad: up their T&C in the future. We are talking here about some short term thinking what they did. On long run it will suck.

[appfo09]

The current aviation industry nowadays likes pilots to sign contracts that are not clearly understood to them, so that the company or agent can do whatever they like.

[Farrell]

I notice that the address used by Mr. Benz is famous for criminal scams.

145-157 ST JOHN STREET, LONDON, ENGLAND, EC1V 4PW

Let this be a lesson to you all to do your due diligence before parting with your money!

Internet fraud - the British connection (http://interfraud.org/ni_british_connection.htm)

[Yuri Gagarin]

It is easy: do you remember the airline's blacklist? They were unable to fly to Europe. This must be the same. For safety reasons airlines like: Royal Air Maroc, Tunisair and others must be banned by EU. And that's all.
The problem: the politicians do not care about pilots " they are well paid guys, living well and having s x with pretty girls".
But I am sure that all this things are entering the safety of the operations... And check all the latests accidents like TransAsia.

[J74]

It is easy: do you remember the airline's blacklist? They were unable to fly to Europe. This must be the same. For safety reasons airlines like: Royal Air Maroc, Tunisair and others must be banned by EU. And that's all.

I don't get you:confused:.. Problems is no royal air maroc or tunisair, problem is the p2f scheme...
even Spain have p2f program! so we should ban Spain as well, right?
ALBASTAR Just to name the first in my mind..:rolleyes:

But I am sure that all this things are entering the safety of the operations... And check all the latests accidents like TransAsia.
:confused: am I get drunk or forgot something back?
What's the link between p2f and TranAsia...??:eek: Please let us know...

[faacfilookingforajob]

that looks like it was written by a 6 year old

what you don't understand? need help? :}

[bamboo30]

Hi Yuri Europeans started P2F and Europeans are the ones making up the majority of P2Fers at Lion

[Delta_Charlie]

Hi everyone,

I would like to inform you that "Stop Pay To Fly" (https://www.facebook.com/stop.paytofly) team is collecting any kind of evidence about P2F programs, if you have something to share, please send to: [email protected]

Do not forget to invite all your friends to join Stop "Pay To Fly" (https://www.facebook.com/stop.paytofly) page, in order to be updated and raise your voice...

#StopPayToFly

[P40Warhawk]

Yes Bamboo, The Europeans are the ones who basically started this crap.
Many Dutch, Portuguese, Italians and Spanish participate in this market destroyer. Via Eagle for example.

Yes If we at least want to die trying to stop this nonsense, please help to do something against it. At least in 1 country in EU it is forbidden, we have to help to get the same done in other countries.

Together we are strong. Check links of Delta Sierra. Please send your terms and conditions of your program to that e mail address.

[BAe 146-100]

Maybe if you devoted this amount of effort to your own career that you do to campaigning on behalf of others you would actually be a first officer by now P40!!

[P40Warhawk]

I do not complain yet about my career movement. At the moment I enjoy being FA. I like that experience. Really nice colleagues. I am not in a hurry. And MAYBE I get my chance here also to move forward to FO, WITHOUT paying for my TR and EVEN get paid to do that job. And actually pretty well paid. Quit many FO's walked the same path here in this company.

Of course if I could get an good offer somewhere else where prospects are even better , then Maybe yes. But I dont need to go away from this company. I like it here.

I could have had already by now approx 500-700 hrs B737 ( blacklisted airline )or 400 hrs B717, but those offers and conditions where terrible.

I am patient. My time will come. And yes of course I'd rather start flying as FO yesterday then tomorrow, because that is what I really want, but not under :mad: conditions.

[Delta_Charlie]

Today in PARIS, the European Cockpit Association (ECA) presents the final report about:

ATYPICAL EMPLOYMENT IN AVIATION (https://www.eurocockpit.be/node/2202/)
The study is co-financed by the European Commission.
"While finding a job is difficult for young pilots in the first place, they also face situations where they end up subsidising their airline, e.g. by paying the airline to fly its aircraft in order to gain flight experience (“Pay-To-Fly” schemes). This creates potential conflicts of interests for an independent safety professional, and constitutes straight financial exploitation."

HERE (https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/report_atypical_employment_in_aviation_15_0212_f.pdf) you have the full document, where is highlighted many times Pay To Fly as a factor that produce safety concerns and social dumping.

[Superpilot]

..and having to pay €120k + for an integrated course worth half that much but which results in a better chance of a job (if you are in the right age range) is better is it? :ugh:

[J74]

.and having to pay €120k + for an integrated course......
Who told you to enroll?
Honestly I did the Atpl years ago but don't recall to have spent 1/4 of the price you wrote and nowadays you can spend something like 40/50K euro for the full training.
You don't need to go and spend 100k and above just to have in your CV names like, Oxford and so on.....:uhoh:...licence are the same and for the same final purpose!

Delta Charlie,
I agree with you about the p2f programs cancer...but....I don't think that the safety is touched!
I repeat that p2f program assessment are the same as for any pilot, you need to PASS SOME ASSESSMENTS and SHOW your SKILLS in the SIMULATOR as well. So if you pass you' re valid pilot as anyone else passed without any p2f.
And I understand that this is the policy of the "major" company doing these type of programs, even if i agree with you that could be a safety downgrade in some Companies where there is no any assessment done previously ! and for that reason we should make some differences-

[JohanP]

I agree with you about the p2f programs cancer...but....I don't think that the safety is touched!I repeat that p2f program assessment are the same as for any pilot, you need to PASS SOME ASSESSMENTS and SHOW your SKILLS in the SIMULATOR as well. So if you pass you' re valid pilot as anyone else passed without any p2f.
Man, P2F is not only about doing an assessment like a regular airline. And, what you say is partially true. Indeed, some people must pass an assessment but I'm pretty sure many others don't and money is just the key. Assessment is a pretext.
Anyway, please don't tell the safety is ok.
How can a pilot be mentally able to fly a B737 or A320 with almost 200 passengers when he/she gets no salary, flies more hours than the max legal, has to come back to his/her base taking the bus for 10hours after the last flight.
How can a pilot be relaxed, unfazed, focused only on the flight when he/she doesn't know how he/she 's gonna pay for food, apartment and all the basic stuff...
And don't think P2F is only for rich people so they don't care about having to pay for living expenses. Some people get big loans to do P2F.
I forgot to mention something: for all of this, you have to pay! This is what I call the big jet flying club! At least, in your flying club you decide where to go.

P2F as well as being self-employed/contractor is destroying the industry but sooner or later, this system will collapse on his own. With how many airplanes?

[J74]

Man, P2F is not only about doing an assessment like a regular airline. And, what you say is partially true. Indeed, some people must pass an assessment but I'm pretty sure many others don't and money is just the key. Assessment is a pretext.

I didn't say anything different..read carefully and I repeat that I know some Companies don't have any pre selection...but of course, you have to pass an OPC( I believe, you know what is it).
Believe me I'm in the industry and I know what i'm speaking about.
Something else I believe, for 30 or 50K I don't think anyone could let you seat in thr right seat if you not able. Remember..PILOT INCAPACITATION is always there waiting for you:rolleyes:

How can a pilot be mentally able to fly a B737 or A320 with almost 200 passengers when he/she gets no salary, flies more hours than the max legal, has to come back to his/her base taking the bus for 10hours after the last flight.
How can a pilot be relaxed, unfazed, focused only on the flight when he/she doesn't know how he/she 's gonna pay for food, apartment and all the basic stuff..

If you're willing to pay 50k or more to do 500 hours, you're willing to accept all this and you already now from the beginning.

In any case, please LET ME KNOW , from the ABOVE, the Differences btw for istance, WIZZAIR or VOLOTEA etc and the p2f??

Apart from the salary, your description look like RYANAIR...but they still flying with no MAJOR EVENT after more than 20 years.


For me pay to fly= pay for your TYPE RATING so even before getting the hour and be involved in the LT...this is just to understand what I think about that!

MAjor disaster indeed happen to very experienced pilot..and I'm sure you're able to find by yourself all the fact via our GOOGLE friend.

Low hour guys have to start somewhere as many started before even with no p2f...

Low hour guys are more trained cause they just went out from the school and they are very focused and they do well most of the cases.

Experience guys with differente background are flying with regular contract nowadays but still lot of gaps sometimes...and safety concern.

So to speak about PAy2fly is something but to mix that and give the p2f=no safety is another story and in my opinion NOT TRUE!

[Aeromar27]

I think associating P2F directly to reduced safety is a mistake and an exaggeration. It's true that, in some cases, P2F could indirectly affect safety, but many other life circumstances could affect safety in the same way and nobody is creating facebook groups against them (divorces, breakups, living in ****ty countries...). It's still a bad thing, and I admit a safety debate could be seen as a more effective way to present the case to the public opinion.

The thing is, P2F is still something we should fight against because it creates a state of unfair competition among candidates.

P2F is not equal to paid type rating. If airlines can't afford training programs, sure, let the applicants pay for training, but after successful completion of the courses, the pilot should be hired, and paid accordingly for his or her services. Otherwise, it would be clear that the airline had no intentions of keeping those new pilots, and that it would just get new ones paying for flying, time after time, forever.

So my opinion is that P2F is not necessarily a safety problem, but a workers' rights problem and, this also being a threat to the industry, it should be treated as such. I'm sure it's easily demonstrable that setting a basic cost of 200.000€ for anyone aspiring for a remote chance to make a living flying big irons, can't be a good thing in the long run...

[J74]

I think P2F isn't necessarily a safety problem, but a workers' rights problem.

:ok: sure it is!

but:

P2F is not equal to paid type rating.
you find me disagree. If you're 32 years old as written you should now that times ago the MCC was paid for the Airline Company.
So now that's what happening now, leave people to pay for their own type rating but in this case start to be not fair and quite expensive!
Then which type I should buy?...the A320 oh good...and if then I have the chance to fly a B737 what I have to do? buy another type? :=
Generally speaking, a Pilot, after the standard training, CPL/IR/MEP should be interview, assessed and if fit, should be trained on the aircraft type of the Company , which have to spend money and time.

If airlines can't afford training programs, sure, let the applicants pay for training
If an Airline can't afford a training programs, so perhaps is not an Airline and the CAA should not release the AOC in my opinion.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Look you guys the vast majority of P2F doesn't even happen in Europe, it happens in SE Asia and Africa. Although, the people who actually pay for it seem to be mostly Europeans :mad:

All this talk about "stop P2F" is great, but can any one of you actually point to the relevant part of EU legislation that you want to be amended? And what specific changes you are asking for?

And then please explain how it would be enforced, considering that most of the transactions involve airlines from outside the EU?

In case this EU legislation you are dreaming of gets passed, what do you propose the "punishment" should be for non compliance? Who do you think should be punished, the operators, the middle men, or the guys buying the hours?

[PPRuNeUser0173]

The answer is simple - DON'T DO IT. Just steer clear of these schemes in the first place. If you ALL STOOD TOGETHER and refused to take part in what possibly is the worst thing to happen in the field of aviation employment then it will stop.

Its never going to happen though because some idiots will still do it just to get ahead in the queue for a job. There is no Pilot unity.........and there aren't that many Pilot jobs for the newly qualified ones to go to. In other words you are "two a penny" and you have made a bad career choice!

Pilots will fly for nothing, or fly for food. I don't see Train Drivers or Plumbers working for nothing!

Good luck - get out and put the experience behind you.

[JohanP]

Something else I believe, for 30 or 50K I don't think anyone could let you seat in thr right seat if you not able. Remember..PILOT INCAPACITATION is always there waiting for you
How can you be certain, 100% sure, when you assess someone that he/she will have the right reaction? And even more when it's about young pilots just fresh out of the school, you're a baby, you don't even know how to walk...
Apart from the salary, your description look like RYANAIR...but they still flying with no MAJOR EVENT after more than 20 years.
To me it is not the best exemple, the major event as you say was very close to happen, isn't it? 3 May-Day calls on same day, low fuel emergency. Obviously, it is not serious.
Low hour guys have to start somewhere as many started before even with no p2f...

Low hour guys are more trained cause they just went out from the school and they are very focused and they do well most of the cases.

Experience guys with differente background are flying with regular contract nowadays but still lot of gaps sometimes...and safety concern.
Well, the world turned upside down. If I listen to what you say, it's almost a fresh low hour pilot should be the captain and the captain the copilot because they are more trained? Do you realize what you wrote?
I know what you mean, and some very experienced pilots can still make terrible errors of course. But it is not the general situation.
Please, do not compare a 200TT pilot (mostly on SEP, 30 to 50hours on DA42 or PA34)
to an experienced Captain with 6000 hours on type. It is not possible at all.

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

We are all paying to fly, directly or indirectly.

Ryan, Easy, Flybe - paid for TR or bond, low salary as FO for first three years equals indirect payment for line training.

Until Airlines give opportunities to low-hour pilots, some will continue to pay for TR and line training. How many FO jobs require min 500 hour on type? That is why pilots pay for line training.

No safety issue there either.

I agree that FI and other GA work is better than going down the P2F route, but we must remember that not everyone has these opportunities.

We would be better to campaign for T&Cs.

[Superpilot]

Who told you to enroll?

I didn't, that was my point. I'm a P2Fer from 2011, just before it got stupidly expensive (€15k for 200 hours if you must ask). I also paid around £45k for a modular ATPL but found I was locked out of jobs and opportunities because I didn't have an integrated ATPL. That's why I had to SSTR and P2F. In total, the money I've handed over is still far less than what my integrated peers have paid (or are still paying today).

The point again is P2F exists because pilot recruitment is unfair and biased towards those who go to the big schools (and pay the big bucks). There's a demand for it, that's why it exists, don't you get that?

[Aeromar27]

What recruiter told you that you didn't get a job because you did a modular ATPL instead of an integrated one. That is preposterous!

The standard route still works. I'm 32 now, and started flying when I was 19. Even today, I see people that started at the same time I did, getting their first airliner jobs in their 30s and early 40s. They got their CPL, became instructors, instructed for many years... most are flying jets now and some are even captains.

That "demand" you talk about is just an excuse you use to feel better.

[Superpilot]

What recruiter told you that you didn't get a job because you did a modular ATPL instead of an integrated one. That is preposterous!


Eh? When you can't put in an application to an airline because low hours jobs are not even advertised, you kind of don't need to be told by a recruiter "We don't hire modular types!" - It's blindingly obvious.

Let's look deeper: EasyJet only hires low houred pilots through CTC. BA and BA Citiflyer only from Oxford, CTC and possibly FTE. FlyBe (mostly speaking) also from the big schools and the top 3 providers of low hours pilots into Ryanair are the standard big integrated schools too. Go into Europe, and it's the same situation across France and Germany. Spain, I'm not sure?

But they're not the only airlines in Europe you say? True. But for those there is competition, fierce competition especially if you have zero commercial experience or no type rating. And skill has very little to do with it. More so than skill, luck and being at the right time/place is what brings successes. You are competing with thousands just to get a phone call or invite.

I think we are living in alternate realities my friend. From what I've seen (also been flying privately since my teens), the FI route into commercial flying has become less viable as the years have passed. The 3 FIs who I know (some who are also experienced examiners) all in their 30s who are getting jet jobs right now have over 3,000 instructional hours and had to SSTR + P2F to get ahead. A few success stories doesn't change the overall situation. I believe I have the bigger picture covered in my analysis.


That "demand" you talk about is just an excuse you use to feel better.

I don't need to feel better. It was and remains an accepted bitter choice. I'm not unique in this department. I've come across many who feel the same. For me, it was this way or the highway. In life, we need to do what works for us, given our own personal situation. Your reality is not the only one a pilot can experience.

[Aeromar27]

Eh? When you can't put in an application to an airline because low hours jobs are not even advertised, you kind of don't need to be told by a recruiter "We don't hire modular types!" - It's blindingly obvious.

In that case what they were not accepting is low houred pilots, integrated or modular.

Let's look deeper: EasyJet only hires low houred pilots through CTC. BA and BA Citiflyer only from Oxford, CTC and possibly FTE. FlyBe (mostly speaking) also from the big schools and the top 3 providers of low hours pilots into Ryanair are the standard big integrated schools too. Go into Europe, and it's the same situation across France and Germany. Spain, I'm not sure?

I'm from Spain. 50% of the people I've known in aviation fly now for Ryanair or Vueling. Some of them did their training in :mad: flight schools around the world or in Europe, integrated or modular, late starters or in diapers. Most of them worked as flight instructors for 2 or 3 years. None of them needed an OXFORD or FTE tattoo to be considered for a job. Yes, they did pay for the TR, but aftwerards, they got paid for their services as should be.

But they're not the only airlines in Europe you say? True. But for those there is competition, fierce competition especially if you have zero commercial experience or no type rating. And skill has very little to do with it. More so than skill, luck and being at the right time/place is what brings successes. You are competing with thousands just to get a phone call or invite.
See, that's the problem. Today's kids are vocational towards uniforms and terminal building posing. The ones who have been dreaming about this job since they can remember, understand that the correct progression towards an airline job might contain a long stage flying SEPs, teaching monkeys how to fly in order to fill log book. The problem comes when a uniform fetishist decides he needs to skip the struggle, and pay their way up instantly. The demand didn't exist any less than the demand of 100% salary-free pilots has existed since the begining. It's those who were accepting to be sodomized that made this thing become a thing.


I don't need to feel better. It was and remains an accepted bitter choice. I'm not unique in this department. I've come across many who feel the same. For me, it was this way or the highway. In life, we need to do what works for us, given our own personal situation. Your reality is not the only one a pilot can experience.
In a free economy there's always a demand for unfair labor. It's the :mad: accepting the :mad: who makes it become a thing that, apparently, everyone else has to accept.

[Delta_Charlie]

Guys,

We cannot say that companies like Ryanair and Wizzair are P2F companies!
Please... The amount and quality of their training cannot be compared with P2F airlines and I would like to remind you that RYR, Wizz and Volotea pay a SALARY.

In my opinion P2F affects SAFETY and I am not the only one to believe this.
Have you watched this TV report (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgOQYMDDz4k)? How can you say that P2F not affect SAFETY? Also the director of AirFrance flight operations agree and many others Captains...

In this days in Paris, ECA (European Cockpit Association) held a conference to present the final report on a study about Atypical Forms of Employment in Aviation (https://www.eurocockpit.be/node/2202/). This study has been financed by European Commission, thus you can see how the authority is interested in this issue...

I suggest to download the full version (https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/report_atypical_employment_in_aviation_15_0212_f.pdf) of this study and try to search "pay to fly", many times is mentioned and is recognized as a form of exploitation and a big safety concern.

If an Airline can't afford a training programs, so perhaps is not an Airline and the CAA should not release the AOC in my opinion.

Completely agree.

[Aeromar27]

If it really is so, then even better. My own uninofmed conclussion is that safety isn't greately affected as I doubt P2F pilots go for P2F programs and sleep under a bridge and starve. Most P2Fers are helped by family, spouses, partners, and simply get by making sure they are well rested and shaved for each flight.

If a proper study concludes that in enough cases safety is affected, then that would become my grounds for objection.

An AOC has nothing to do with what you're trying to associate it with. Airlines are not there to make our dreams come true y'know.

[Math380]

"Director of AirFrance flight operations" he is probably the best guy you can ask support to... come on, it's not with this kind of support that you will succeed.

"How can you say that P2F does not affect SAFETY?" How can you say it does ?
This is confirmation bias.

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

I still think it's better to campaign for improved T&Cs for all pilots.

We all pay to fly, full stop.

On the security issue, I think this could be a red herring.

OK, name me an incident involving a P2F pilot? If there are any, how can you prove it has anything to do with paying for line training?

After all, all pilots can make mistakes.

While I don't really agree with P2F, I now (having changed my mind) understand it. Most of those who complain probably can't afford it, is my guess.

[P40Warhawk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLMPFJQTmZs
Colgan Air Crash in Buffalo.

It is not direct link to P2F, but indirectly it does. Since they had no opportunity to stay in proper homes close to their base, they slept in crew rest.

Same with P2F boys and girls. Or you also put that amount you need for food and home together with that what you for that program, but then still you will try to keep that Living expenses part as low as possible. Which means, no money for proper food and place to sleep, so your real rest quality is very low, which later has effect on your performance in the cockpit.
See that crash of Colgan, to see what happens when you are fatigued.

And we are talking about that nothing is linked to quality of training of P2F boys. Well search for incidents and accident in Lion Air in Indonesia. Most pilots who participated there had to log non existing trainings in their logbooks. Lot of fraud was known there. The fact that so many Junior FO's there got involved in such incidents is shocking.

So I think there is a huge safety issue linked to P2F. Yes it is in Asia and not in Europe, but it s all fact that there are programs , which nearly led to DISASTER.

[JumboJet1999]

"OK, name me an incident involving a P2F pilot?"


(From Wiki)

"On 5 July 2007, a First Officer who was not an employee but was paying MyTravel to gain flight experience on their aircraft, landed an Airbus A320 heavily at Kos airport in Greece causing substantial damage to the main landing gear. The report was critical of both the pilots training record and non-employees paying airlines to gain experience."

... ... :rolleyes:

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

That's a good example.

But ... would you like a list of landing errors by 'normal' pilots?

[Superpilot]

Same with P2F boys and girls. Or you also put that amount you need for food and home together with that what you for that program, but then still you will try to keep that Living expenses part as low as possible. Which means, no money for proper food and place to sleep, so your real rest quality is very low, which later has effect on your performance in the cockpit.

Wow, you're really desperate to prove your stupid point. What makes you think all P2F pilots are living on the poverty line? I know people including myself who spent €30 every available night on food and drink and flew home to see the family every 8-10 days! Sorry to break it to you but some of us do actually have money and whilst I can't speak for all, in my case it was my own money and never once was I in debt. Grow up P40.

[JohanP]

That's very arrogant! Even if it's true and let's imagine you earn everything you said by your own, what's the point? Tell the world you have money so you can do P2F without debt? You want a gold medal?
P2F is very risky and the main risk is for you, 100% for the customer, 0% for the seller. But actually, the only risk is to lose a huge amount of money, this is not really an issue as you have a lot of money! Very very intelligent way of thinking...
Hope you will never be in need. Humility.

[Superpilot]

Tut tut tut. People on this forum really ought to read with respect to what is being said on the same topic previously. Yes it is arrogant. But don't take my display of arrogance out of context. It was in direct response to someone who thinks we are all poor and make dangerous choices/decisions. We're not all in the same boat when it comes to our life situation.

[P40Warhawk]

Nope, true, Not everyone is in the same boat. Myself I paid the last penny for my initial training on the last day of my training. One day before graduation ceremony. Money from my parents which are also not rich at all and my sister.

If I would do P2F , then again I have try to get that money from somewhere, and of course will take as little as possible money for food and living. Though I would NEVER participate in disgraceful programs like these.

Piloting is STILL a job, not some community service. So you need to get paid to do your job. So why should I finance extra for those living expenses. I should get salary so I dont need to extra finance that.

I am grown up btw. That is why I think like mentioned above. We are not voluntary workers which work for free. If you want to do that , then go to Africa or something and do humanitarian work, but for flying a plane with such a responsibility you need to get paid. Dont forget that the employer sells his tickets, and makes money with it. What makes him think that he should NOT pay his personnel? It is a SICK thought.

Even if I would HAVE the money, then still I would not do it.

[J74]

Luke SkyToddler
Look you guys the vast majority of P2F doesn't even happen in Europe, it happens in SE Asia and Africa.True in part, even in Eu is full> check in the previous pages and you'll discover a lot of Airline companies still doing that, just to name few right now, Blu panorama Airline, Albastar, Small Planet Airlines, Germania...and the list continue!!

Golfdriver
Its never going to happen though because some idiots will still do it just to get ahead in the queue for a job. There is no Pilot unity.........and there aren't that many Pilot jobs for the newly qualified ones to go to. In other words you are "two a penny" and you have made a bad career choice!

Pilots will fly for nothing, or fly for food. I don't see Train Drivers or Plumbers working for nothing!

Good luck - get out and put the experience behind you., In fact if all these guys would realize what they are doing!!!
If you all (start to STOP) this process, YOU PROBABLY WILL FIND A SEAT IN THE COCKPIT SOON AND WITH BETTER DEAL!

JohanP

I wrote : Something else I believe, for 30 or 50K I don't think anyone could let you seat in thr right seat if you not able. Remember..PILOT INCAPACITATION is always there waiting for youyour reply:
How can you be certain, 100% sure, when you assess someone that he/she will have the right reaction? And even more when it's about young pilots just fresh out of the school, you're a baby, you don't even know how to walk...Hi johan are we speaking about piloting an aircraft or what? do you understand what I mean?
Would you give you're million dollar aircraft with somethin like minimum 180 pax flying in big cities crowded with people to an INCOMPETENT GUY JUST BECAUSE HE PAYED 50K EUROS and ENDANGER THE SAFETY of ALL THESE and the REPUTATION of THE AIRLINE?
I don't think!

If you're a Pilot you're a PILOT, not matter in which type of aircraft are you sit in! TO fly a Bus or Boeing is "like" to fly a Cessna, no differences, to fly is one thing, to understand the logics of the Computers we have on board (speacially Airbus) how they beahve, how to use them, how to cope with the information they give to us is something else!

So PILOT INCAPACITATION: what's wrong on that?? OPC will serve even for that, you'll practice and you'll know how to recognize, deal, communicate, navigate and fly to land the Airplane safely!!
That is something realy easy to do we always used to fly alone during our PPL/CPL...and you have all the help you need from the the C/A and ATC.

So again i ask you, would you give an airplane to a guy that during his training(LT) and OPC shows bad records?

To me it is not the best exemple, the major event as you say was very close to happen, isn't it? 3 May-Day calls on same day, low fuel emergency. Obviously, it is not serious.That's another story and I'm afraid, with respect, we will go OT in deep...but this is nothing to do with P2f but a Policy of the Company, or it was!

Well, the world turned upside down. If I listen to what you say, it's almost a fresh low hour pilot should be the captain and the captain the copilot because they are more trained? Do you realize what you wrote?
I know what you mean, and some very experienced pilots can still make terrible errors of course. But it is not the general situation.
Please, do not compare a 200TT pilot (mostly on SEP, 30 to 50hours on DA42 or PA34)
to an experienced Captain with 6000 hours on type. It is not possible at allI'm not comparing, I'm not downgrading...I'm just making you know that in young kids still exist good pilots, with good skills. That is my Goal, that obvious you didn't get it at all!

It seems we are speaking in different languages!
Please go in the professional word and then come back to me.

CaptainCriticalAngle
But ... would you like a list of landing errors by 'normal' pilots?

Delta_Charlie
Agree with you for everything but sorry I repeat to You, and it is not Fair,
SAFETY has nothing to do with P2F.

I knew some of these guys, believe me, saw the in SIM during OPC and in Aircraft....they are good pilots!
Nobody speak about, but not every one willing to pay will pass!
Do you know that?
Still a lot of "sleepers" people who don't talk here but there are a lot, who don0t make it during the TR or they have some negative point in some modules in the TR check Form......
Then you have people who doesn't pass the OPC check!
Some of the guys even after 2 attempt!

Then some of the guys fly for so long time with Safety Pilot and they then be removed even before the Line check.....
Others they fail the LIne check....
So please we are giving the bad information to the people and some CUSTOMERE here reading the FORUM.

[JohanP]

Ok I will just write a last thing cause it's an eternal debate...
You need to know that in aviation, an accident is never caused by a unique event. But by a series of event, there is linkage, a chain which finally leads to the tragic event.

P2F IS PART OF THE CHAIN. Not directly as you say but it is part of it.

I am sure you know this famous pilot: Chesley Burnett "Sully" Sullenberger.

A quote from him
We have some carriers that have hired some pilots with only a few hundred hours of experience. ... There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety.

And please, respect me as I do when I read you. I am working in the aviation industry as a pilot.

[Kelly Hopper]

As a long seasoned professional pilot I am dead against P2F. I am also dead against any such low houred pilots moving directly from initial training to airlines. The varied experience required to make a well seasoned future Captain is not, and now never will be there? One day you may need it.
This is all part of the general dumbing down of everything in society the reasons which dumbfound me?
Not withstanding this I am seeing a growing kickback against P2F now so it may eventually lead somewhere if the pressure is kept up.
What I simply don't understand however is just how suspiciously quiet our pilot unions are on this matter? Their sole purpose is to safeguard pilot working conditions and yet this situation is a disaster for any workforce yet they remain mysteriously silent?
For those who are members, (I am not) why not lobby your union hard to act on this? They potentially have the power of change. Make them work for you!

[Aeromar27]

I agree. Aviation safety is too complex to define P2F as a direct affecting factor. I'm sure key human errors are being done by P2F and non-P2F pilots. Also, a P2Fer isn't automatically a bad pilot, just someone who had money and a different set of values.

The unions thing I've been saying for a long time. I see P2F as a problem affecting pilots (aviation workers), and as such, it should be treated by the unions. It doesn't only affect wannabe pilots, but also established pilots. I somewhat agree that experience after 200h isn't enough to make a fully ready airline pilot, but that's why airlines with decent training programs should be able to bring those 200h pilots up to standards with training and line training. The problem is that wannabe pilots see no reason to be part of a union and spend money on their fees. I think this is one that the unions should tackle out of pure ethics. Wannabe pilots in a facebook group don't have the capacity to create a level of pressure to get things started. This has to start happening from top to bottom. It's established pilots who have to help the future pilots in this one.

[darkroomsource]

Until a financial reason is presented to the airlines, they will continue with this method of generating revenue. They are not going to listen to "it's not fair".

If insurance companies were to, for example, charge higher rates to airlines with P2F pilots, then the companies would adjust their schemes accordingly, probably increasing the prices for the P2F pilots.

[Aeromar27]

Obviously money doesn't speak "fairness". But companies still have to follow regulations.

[J74]

Hi JohanP,
no one here is unrespectful I point out the Pilot Incapacitation just to make an example as I felt you far away maybe wrongly, but that's what you made me think.
P2F IS PART OF THE CHAIN. Not directly as you say but it is part of it.I'm not defending P2F, but want to understand...You say is part of the chain that leeds in tragic event....I say, it could be in some circumstances but it couldn't be!

We have some carriers that have hired some pilots with only a few hundred hours of experience. ... There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety.Yes of course, I heard and saw wht Capt. Sullenberger did but please make me look where, here, I wrote that you don't need experience ?

Telling you that even young guy are good pilots and have good skills and say that young guy have experience is different, and never told that.
Of course you need experience, and experience comes from years you spent to fly.

JohanP if you look around Europe, without going to far away, you are going to see that most of the major national Airline Company use to take cadets and young guys with 200 TT and put them after the training in their fleet, this include 77,74,33,34..

[Superpilot]

Piloting is STILL a job, not some community service. So you need to get paid to do your job. So why should I finance extra for those living expenses. I should get salary so I dont need to extra finance that.

I did a Modular fATPL, A320 SSTR and some P2F. This lead to several interview opportunities, the likes of which simply did not happen in the 3 years before. I "paid" less than what most integrated fATPL pilots would pay to get the same interview opportunities but what's different is that I started my first job on a full salary with no stupid bonding/reduced salary scales. It;s Horses for courses.

Make it illegal for airlines to discriminate against pilots who come from "non-approved" flight schools and I'll agree with you....P2F must stop. Until then, I stand by my belief that P2F exists to make it a level playing field and in addition to what you view as rich mindless goofs who end up in a flying career, many talented commercial pilots (with and without thousands of GA hours) would simply not be able to start their careers.

[Aeromar27]

I did a Modular fATPL, A320 SSTR and some P2F. This lead to several interview opportunities, the likes of which simply did not happen in the 3 years before. I "paid" less than what most integrated fATPL pilots would pay to get the same interview opportunities but what's different is that I started my first job on a full salary with no stupid bonding/reduced salary scales. It;s Horses for courses.

May I ask how much you paid for your salary-less line training and how old you were when you first sat in a jet?

Also, how long after you finished that paid line training until you got your first job as an airline pilot with full proper salary?

[Superpilot]

Sure. €15,000 for 150 hours but I ended up doing almost 200 without any further demands from the airline. I was 30. I started flying privately over 10 years before that.

I put an application in with other airlines whilst still in line training. Interview came 2 weeks after finishing line training, started 3 months later. Again all in 2011/2012.

The expanded history if you're interested is below. I am a Londoner with a family to feed so there's not much by way of aviation employment I can consider. The FI strategy would never work for someone like me, aka "We're not all in the same boat with regards our life situation".

Year 2000 = PPL
Year 2001-(2011) = A career in IT
Year 2005-2006 = Part time ATPL Theory (still in full time employment)
Year 2007-2008 = Part time CPL, ME, IR, MCC (still in full time employment)
Year 2008 = First interview for jet position (failed)
Year 2009 = A320 SSTR
Year 2009-2011 = Full time employment
Year 2011 = Second interview for TP position in Asia (passed) but salary doesn't cover even 25% of bills (by now I have a family and a home)
Year 2011-2012 = A320 P2F
Year 2012 = First paid job (perm)
Year 2013 = Walked away from first job due unable to relocate family. Third interview (passed) but opportunity got deferred to the following year so no flying during 2013.
Year 2014 = Second paid job (contract) again away from home
Year 2015 = Two more interview opportunities this time with local airlines (passed both). Third paid job (perm) starting now. First time flying from home city.

[BAe 146-100]

Superpilot I don't know why you have to feel you have to justify what you have done to be successful, if these 250 hour wannabes don't want to take your advice then more fool them.

[Aeromar27]

Sure. €15,000 for 150 hours but I ended up doing almost 200 without any further demands from the airline. I was 30. I started flying privately over 10 years before that.

I put an application in with other airlines whilst still in line training. Interview came 2 weeks after finishing line training, started 3 months later. Again all in 2011/2012.

The expanded history if you're interested is below. I am a Londoner with a family to feed so there's not much by way of aviation employment I can consider. The FI strategy would never work for someone like me, aka "We're not all in the same boat with regards our life situation".

Year 2000 = PPL
Year 2001-(2011) = A career in IT
Year 2005-2006 = Part time ATPL Theory (still in full time employment)
Year 2007-2008 = Part time CPL, ME, IR, MCC (still in full time employment)
Year 2008 = First interview for jet position (failed)
Year 2009 = A320 SSTR
Year 2009-2011 = Full time employment
Year 2011 = Second interview for TP position in Asia (passed) but salary doesn't cover even 25% of bills (by now I have a family and a home)
Year 2011-2012 = A320 P2F
Year 2012 = First paid job (perm)
Year 2013 = Walked away from first job due unable to relocate family. Third interview (passed) but opportunity got deferred to the following year so no flying during 2013.
Year 2014 = Second paid job (contract) again away from home
Year 2015 = Two more interview opportunities this time with local airlines (passed both). Third paid job (perm) starting now. First time flying from home city.

The type of P2F program you took falls into what some of us consider reasonable. 15000€ for a type rating and 200 hours on type is, in my opinion, training costs and, let me tell you, a great opportunity. Most IR courses are more expensive than that.

Problematic P2F programs are, in my opinion, those that cost more than what it actually costs to get a TR course and whereby the airline is clearly taking advantage of a vocational pilot by using his money to cover operational costs. If you're paying 60.000€ for a P2F program, you're not paying for training alone, you're financing the company to the point that the airline will never consider hiring pilots again.

I got my PPL in the year 2000 when I was 18. Then I had to stop training and flying altogether until very recently. I'm 32 years old now and only have my PPL and ATPL exams. Basically I'm a late re-starter. I'm considering the FI route and would never go for one of those unethical P2F programs. Now, if I were offered a TR with time on type for 15000€, I'd go for it. I hope they're still available when I become eligible. If I was still 23 years old, I probably wouldn't.

Maybe a solution for this whole problem would be to set a type limitation, a maximum price, a maximum number of applicants per year per operator and a maximum amount of hours on type. That way it would be an honest training program.

[Superpilot]

15000€ for a type rating and 200 hours on type is, in my opinion, training costs and, let me tell you, a great opportunity

Nope, you misunderstand that. €15k just for the hours. The TR cost what type ratings do, in the region of €25k inc base check. I'm glad you're coming to understand what I'm saying Aeromar, for a minute I thought you'd been through the exact same :mad: as me but had a delightful experience getting that first job! Good luck mate :ok:

[Aeromar27]

So I have an honest question...

We all agree that the best possible scenario for someone with 200h-300h SEP would be to get hired to fly a jet and to sign a bond with the airline or to have reduced salary for some time. We all know that doesn't happen anymore.

Another scenario is to do flight instruction to build around 1000h SEP to get hired in the same way. In reality, new instructor openings depend on airlines hiring and clearing the flight-schools of current instructors, so that’s also rarely an option.

I say this because of the comments I read on the Facebook page and on here. It feels like some future pilots, and I include myself, feel P2F is THE reason why they have very low chances of getting a job. It’s not like if regulations suddenly ban P2F, airlines are gonna start hiring low hour pilots again like they used to, and give us free type ratings… or would they? Honest question.

Is it politically incorrect to suggest that a P2F program, which price shows it to be an honest training program, isn’t that bad?

[J74]

Flight Instructor: Is good for your own satisfaction and build experience receiving a salary while flying and signing hours but, if you're lucky you'll find a job in a JET later, but nowadays seems not easy In Europe at least!
They don't care anymore about your TT if you don't have a real Jet rating and if you're going to apply for some Companies, make sure they don't have A320 or B737 otherwise they want the relative TR and some hours on the type.
FI , This is good for the 1500 hours barrier in USA.

Or it could be a way to find a job in some African companies that use SEP and MEP doing bush, safari and so on....and in any case you should have the class rating of certain aircrafts.

If they Ban the P2f, of course something will change I think, maybe some Companies will start to look out of the loop. but don't believe that is full of job out there for not experience people.
With time, most Captains go in retirement, most FO upgrade to the left seat, and they will need new FO to fill the gap anyway.
Don't forget that in some Companies like for istance RAM, Tunisair ect( where P2f is active) nothing will change, cause if they need new FO, they will look inside their country and not for Foreigners.

Is it politically incorrect to suggest that a P2F program, which price shows it to be an honest training program, isn’t that bad?
In my opinion, is incorrect not because you jump the queue but cause you are paying to work instead of receiving a salary and in this way we(as pilots) are going to be our same enemy reducing our salary in the future, going against our rights and downgrading our profession.

[pilot4eva]

Probably the biggest difference is independence. Once you have liabilities with the airline which paid for your training and provided Line Training, you are absolutely in their service. Basically you will fly at any time to any destinations. Which is absolutely fine, unless you are not a fan of such “control”. On the other hand if you choose paid Line Training you gain the “luxury” of choosing the airline which you would love to work for and ability to focus on the job which will bring you everyday pleasure.
Baltic Aviation Academy have released an article about why you should do line training:
Line Training: to pay or not to pay? (http://www.balticaa.com/line-training-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=2015-02-25&utm_campaign=Your+Latest+Aviation+Training+News+-+BAA+News)

What is happening to this industry?

[Officer Kite]

That is extremely poor from Baltic, looks like it was written by a 12 year old.

[P40Warhawk]

So what were the USP's of doing Line training?

Foggy story.

[CockpitSeeker]

Full P2F perpetrators' list known & proven to this day:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_fly#Airlines_and_brokers_involved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_fly#Airlines_and_brokers_involved)
Europe is pretty big with it, maybe more than Asia et al now that we think of it..

The campaign is going ok, decent media coverage and political support building... but we need more signatures (12k so far):
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/p2f_must_stop

[AMS]

I was well against p2f but I'm not very sure now....I guess desperation and all

Airlines treat you like :mad: and people who have secured their roles and know you - start forgetting what it felt like from the other side.....

No one cares and if money can buy it - then do it.

The schools are corrupt and collude to monopolise leaving a distinction between integrated and modular...

Surely that is also a difference in those paying in advance for a break from the outset!

Only my opinion .....

[Luke SkyToddler]

Dutch MEPs want better protection for young pilots (update) - DutchNews.nl (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2015/05/dutch-meps-want-better-protection-for-young-pilots/)

Seems the politicians are slowly waking up to this nonsense. Well done guys, keep the pressure building

[theiceman747]

OK so, P40, Aeromar27 and the other fully-against it. I have a few words for you.

Folks, I agree with you p2f is no the way, it shouldn't be like this and it's not logic but it started long ago and the trend has been set: The first ones were the ones who got their TR's fully paid and then run after some hours to other places, that was the start. Airlines are not stupid. It's a business organization. From that point, the TR has to be paid by the candidate, and it got worst....

While I agree it shouldn't be this way and p2f is no the correct way, I also think about p2f as an alternative way to get there. Listen folks: you complain about money, do other jobs, etc. First of all not everybody has the same situation (from rich pals to the ones who got a bank-loan to pay training), and you forget something important: Not everybody is a 22yr old guy who has plenty of time to work as Cabin, Ramp, FI, whatever. I know plenty of people in their 30's who in a hurry (they started late) so they now don't have the time to be 3 years a Cabin or whatever. FI? it used to work in the past and it was a "bridge" to airlines, but that was the past and it doesn't exist anymore and being a FI is so much difficult nowadays.

Example? Spain. with +300 days/year of sun, a lot of ATO's. and it's full of Spanish FI's making queque ready to get SEP time for miserable wage. There's a problem, for sure. Also what I told you about the age, when you start late and time passes quickly, you are in a hurry and not everybody has the time and effort to be Cabin for 3 yrs "hoping" for an upgrade. Again, there's a problem.

But is the problem some people pay for flying or it's because the "pilot training machine" is set all over europe (and world)?? why you dont' complain about the ******* CPL sellers all over europe? maybe that's the problem don't you think? There's a school on every corner selling FATPL so hundreds do this: buy,finish and get unemployed (and complain, of course). It's so simple: there's too much of us because training capacity doubles (at least) the jobs available. In India they know a lot about that.

Don't you still get it? OK, if i tell you about SUPPLY AND DEMAND do you understand that? There's lot of pilots and not enough jobs, so the managment makes profit about that because when supply exceeds demand the game is on the "demander" side, and we are on the "supply" side sadly.

So, We are a lot hoping for a job, we don't comply with requirments they set. What they (managment, HR) do? Set the bar to "500 hours on type and line-checked", so they make profit of this: the candidate is Line trained, line checked, and is ready to fly the line with just an OCC.

If we were not so much, the airlines would be desperate and would return to the practices of 70's , 80's (long gone,no comeback) where being a pilot was rare and they struggled to recruit new crews, but sadly we don't live in that era. Wake up.

[theiceman747]

Need to tell you something else:

We live in a world of Capitalism (that's what society wanted right?) so everybody wants always more, and we also live in a Low Cost world, with the bigger benefit and the lower cost. Start to think about the world we live in. Business in Capitalism is making the higher profit with the lower cost, anything else (people, families, etc) doesn't matter at all in this system. Why should be different in Aviation? Airlines can save money and get LT-L.Checked candidates who don't cost a penny to them? They will hire those who don't cost a penny and make them do an OCC and put them on the line, and they will pay them a very low salary (welcome to aviation of this century, at least at the present). Realize that.

You know will tell me about the 70's/80's, and there was also a capitalism in that era and people (and pilots) lived quite well back then with capitalism. Back then capitalism was starting, and was fighting against an opposite idea and had to set a "high standard way-of-life" to defeat the opposite idea of Comunism to attract people, society and Governments into that idea and not into comunism. That fight was won long ago, so now we have the truth behind the "high standards" promised: work a lot, pay is :mad:. Make profit, cut costs, don't matter anything else.

A lot of people chooses to do p2f because it boosts your chances, because of age, desperation, and because no-one in aviation is your friend, and as we live in free market if someone can "buy" and get ahead of you someone will do it, and if you don't there will be always someone who can get ahead of you because they can afford and you don't. They will be be ahead of you because they are qualified with hours or whatever and you are not.
It's unfair, but it's a OPEN CHANCE. But the only ones who can end that are authorities and they have their own agenda and they don't care about pilots complaints, the will do nothing, neither about the crazy training system that supplies way more pilots that airplanes available, so realize that and do whatever you can.

I think p2f is not how things should be, but it's an open chance for people how can afford it and don't have any other opportunities left, to make interviews come and start their careers.

[DeafOldFart]

Recruiting the wrong people for the right reasons is a problem caused by uninformed HR minions....
Huge pilot shortage projected... so there should be employers piling up CV's in anticipation. Make yours a good one.
Old fashioned system was 700 hrs minimum, and the dreaded IR exams, loadsa money. Who paid??? Self improvers..
In theory, P2F types should have passed a scrutiny of their health and psychological fitness. Money can circumvent this safety check as well.
As a dyed in the wool nutter, I feel qualified to advise on psychological issues, poacher turned gamekeeper as it were.
CATCH -22 - If you want to fly for a living, you are probably crazy, but we have to choose the least crazy among you in order that we keep our passengers. Recent history is rather illuminating.

[P40Warhawk]

No it ain't an open chance. Only the ones with a big wallet will get then into the RHS, not the ones who might be really talented or skilled, but not with a big wallet.

Signing a bond, that is the solution, and pay a fine if you want to leave the company before the end of the bond. Pay proper salaries. Being a pilot is a job. You EARN money for the company, because without us pilots, the Airline will not fly, not flying is no revenue / profit. See FR. Profit even increased. Not strange. They raised again the TR costs.

ONLY PAX SHOULD PAY TO FLY. NOT US.

If you start late with your career then it is your problem. Not the problem of the young guys. If you want something, you have to work for it and deserving it.

To be honest, I find it pretty strange in the first place that grads, straight from school fly straight in to B737 A320 aircraft. From cruise speed 125KTS to M0.87. and 185pax. But thats another point, but P2F is a huge CANCER to our business , and again, not always the best pilots sit in the RHS, but the one with the biggest wallet. But even if I would have had the money, then I would NEVER do it. For me being a pilot is a job. That means I need to earn money with it so I can pay my bills. We can not live from the sunshine, and air. We need to eat, drink and live somewhere > not under a bridge. Drive our car from home to airport and back. All that costs money. And in EVERY other branch you do something for your employer, and as a reward for working and production, you get paid a salary. A salary conform your education and responsibilities.

So there is NO good excuse to participate in P2F. Also not when you are older. Dont make your late decision someone elses problem. That shows a lack of empathy and teamwork, but more loner behaviour.

Start networking, try to be on right time in the right place. That might bring you to your goals. If not, then at least you tried, but NO P2F.

[AMS]

P40

I see your point mate and agree with it to some extent....

However, you also seem to only see it from one side - "if you are older and start late tough" really?

Well in which case - earn, save and when you have the money then try......

Sadly where there is over supply and dream there will be abuse and here we are......

All should be given a fair chance and there should be a varied employee profile - old and new - experience and less experienced.....

Agree it is only a job and views and sunshine does not put food on the table ....

Sadly these views will remain here and here only no one cares .....

Sorry to be brash....

Back to the positivity - we shall get a job eventually....

Certainly not giving anyone 60k after tax for hours and type and a chance - at least yet

[theiceman747]

kDear,

I think you did not understand a simple word of my posts.

I didn't mention I started late my training, I just turned the twenties. But not everyone is in the same situation, not everybody is a youngster. Theres people with family, others over 30, others have taken a loan to pay their training, etc. If you start late it's problem that's right, also true you will have the market not-friendly maybe, but because someone started late doesn't mean they have done things bad or they did not go for their dreams.... a lot of people works some years to earn the money for training and when they have it, they can be on the thirties, do you realize that right?.

Going back of what you said: bonds could be good options but where you see a bond in a airline? Flybe mostly and few others. There's not thing such a "loyalty bond". I would glady sign a bond for some years! But that doesn't happen generally speaking and you also know it. Airlines don't hire anyome guys with 200-1000 TT (except RYR!) and put them on the TR courses with a bond. That does not happen anymore and you know it.


I don't see airlines making bonds because each airline makes whatever they want! one airline will force pilots sign a bond, and the next one will require pilots to pay upfront TR (RYR, EZY). It's free market. Every business sets their own rules! And there's no such a tendency to go back to the past where bonds were the norm!. And also, in the coming years all operators require "hours on type" hmm... surprise! this was no required in the past also, but now yes it's required some experience on the type of aicraft operated by the company, in the past this was not required, you were hired with 1000-2000 GA time and then they trained you on the line training (while earning a salary!). So tell me P40, where are you going to get that time on type required if everyone asks for it?? :cool: Complete mess.

Good times of aviation with good salaries are long gone. Accept it.

I understand what you say about p2f and not doing it of whatever, but tell to wait and not do it to a pilot on their thirties/fourties who is going nowhere (there's not enough jobs for all of us sadly) who see a youngster get in because they can afford paying a LT. Who is going to tell to that pilot to not do it?

[Luke SkyToddler]

Who is going to tell to that pilot to not do it?

Nobody, because you're a pack of selfish clueless short sighted muppets who won't listen to reason, and you don't care about the damage you do to this industry or the greater level of risk you collectively pose to the travelling public. That's your choice.

But we WILL tell the regulators and the politicians and the social media and the newspapers and everyone else who cares to listen.

Because we need to save people like you from your own greed and stupidity :ugh:

[AMS]

The above is very easy to say when you are in a job and have had a chance, try it from the other side of the fence the view will end up being very different

I would rather not fill another :mad: pockets with my hard earned cash for a chance of a job - but again you only have one life and do what you can - with the means you have to give yourself the advantage. But I do question where the advantage is! LOL

Many go to OAA/CTC Intergrated and pay inflated prices - this secures them opportunities.. Others that have trained on the Modular at the same schools - do not get a look in......

Many say - aviation does not owe you anything... which is very true - infact nothing does. Either it is mean't to be or it isn't. In the same case - no one owes anything to aviation either.

Many get into this position of paying because of desperation or lack of insight or daddy is paying .....

[felixflyer]

P2F is not going away anytime soon. Just have a look at some of the posts on here. Some of the questions asked look like they have been written by children Using text speak to ask who to send £50k to in order to fly a 737.

Sooner or later this will start to affect captains and their bottom line and then we may see the unions wake up. Until then, it is dog eat dog for low houred guys and those with the hours just don't care.

Once people start paying £500,000 for a 0 to captain course (and they will queue up to pay it) we may see a change.

[ShotOne]

Having read the P40's thread, I commend his petition against P2F. But this issue isn't going to be won or lost by petitions. Frankly, as long as would-be pilots are prepared to sign these one-sided and damaging contracts, the problem will continue to get worse.

Please don't think that I'm either unsympathetic, or smugly wishing just to keep my cosy left seat without being bothered by newbie whippersnappers. Far from it. I'll be retired before long but I can keenly remember the hunt for my first job. Even back then, second-rate airlines were offering "buy your type-rating/job" schemes/scams. I didn't do it, tempting though it was. Today's wannabes are the future of our industry. But what future? P2F employers offer amongst the poorest conditions in the industry. So when you get the brochure with a young pilot pictured wearing shiny gold braid, please READ the contract and think very carefully on what future you're committing to.

[ShotOne]

That's exactly the point though. There's a huge demand for trained pilots. The companies issuing these abusive contracts couldn't exist without them. But as long as young would-be pilots are prepared to sign anything to get a seat, a pilot's worth to an airline is what he cost them...in many cases now, zero!

[VFE]

We live in a society that places status above all else. The age of the celebrity. If an aspiring pilot can pay for the prestige and bragging rights that a job as 'airline pilot' brings... then a market will exist for that to happen. Morals are great, and we all like to think we possess them, but every person in life has a price, sadly. To bemoan P2F, is to bemoan society in general I'm afraid.

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

You mean P2F 'line training'.

Paying for your TR is also P2F. As is paying for your MCC/JOC.

The airlines started this ... pilots followed.

Although I don't like it, i can understand why someone who has invested in a fATPL and hasn't had an interview for months or years, opts to pay for line training.

If I ever end up in that situation I will have to consider it, but it would be a last option.

[CockpitSeeker]

Hi guys,

IMPORTANT: The (European) Commission and Parliament ask for P2F testimonials. Information will be kept confidential.

Ideally someone that paid QT + LT + JOC.

For people doubting my credibility:
see this link (http://www.cockpitseeker.com/2015/ec-p2f-qa/)

An ECA meeting in Brussels will occur next week after which I'll be able to give more information.

Please share and PM me asap.