Operation Unthinkable

[ShotOne]

After having my interest stirred by the thread here on RAF supply drops during the Warsaw rising, I was amazed to read of "Operation Unthinkable". This was to have involved re-arming German prisoners of war in May 1945 to face the Soviets in order to, in Churchills words, "ensure a square deal for Poland". Chiefs of staff thought the idea barking, so the plan never got further than stockpiling captured German weapons. Soviet spies in Whitehall however promptly relayed details to Stalin which must have further heightened what was already an atmosphere of mistrust, setting the tone for the Cold War.

[walter kennedy]

Did not Doenitz, from Flensburg in the closing stages, make the suggestion that what was left of the German armed forces stand with the allies against the red army to save what they could of Eastern Europe?
The Bolshevik regime was monstrous, having exterminated much of the Russian middle class (all the leaders military and civil, thinkers, etc, at least 25 million) by the late 30's and it was only Germany that was able and willing to stand up to it - and so soon after having broke free from the financial stranglehold of the great depression.
It was war-mongers like Churchill that turned Anglo-Saxon Christians in UK and USA against German Anglo-Saxon Christians so preserving that Bolshevik regime to such great cost to Russia, Poland, Hungary, etc, etc, and allowing the demise of nation states such as you can now see in the case of the UK - WW2 was indeed even more tragic and pivotal than most of us understand.

[NutLoose]

It's not without precedent,

At the end of WW2 a German unit did indeed team up with Americans And French to fight against the SS who were attempting to slaughter French VIP prisoners being held in a castle.
A lot of brave Germans who would have probably survived the war died on that night.

The Battle for Castle Itter (http://www.historynet.com/the-battle-for-castle-itter.htm)


.

[thing]

The Bolshevik regime was monstrous,

Er...I may have misunderstood my history but didn't the Nazis do some naughty things too? But then I suppose six million is only a quarter as bad as twenty five million.

Give or take a few hundred thousand.

[phil9560]

Have you read many books Walter ? Ever?

[Mahogany_Bomber]

Walter,

great parody post, you almost had me convinced that you were being serious.

MB

[Whenurhappy]

WW2 was indeed even more tragic and pivotal than most of us understand

Yourself included, Walter?

[Heathrow Harry]

"I was amazed to read of "Operation Unthinkable"."

Well my dear old Dad was given a couple of jeeps loaded with armed Japanese officers and NCO's and was sent out to roam the streets of Jakarta in late '45 keeping Soekarno's nationalists in their place until the Dutch arrived to reinstall Western Civilisation - absolutely sickened him.

And similar happened in Saigon IIRC..............

[pr00ne]

ShotOne,


"....in order to, in Churchill's words, "ensure a square deal for Poland"."

Seeing as it was Churchill who had just given Poland away to the Russians at
the Yalta conference when post war Europe was divided up into areas of control, I highly doubt the sentiment in that "statement."
His treatment of the representatives of the exiled Polish Government over the Warsaw rising to placate Stalin were unforgivable and damnable.

walter kennedy,

You massively understate the true horrendous nature of the Nazi regime, but your rather biased agenda is given away by your words "...allowing the demise of nation states such as you can now see in the case of the UK."

[ShotOne]

In fairness, Walter is probably referring to the tens of millions of people who subsequently perished far from our well-known WW2 battles, who would not have died but for that conflict.

Pr00ne, I'm not a Churchill cheerleader but I didn't invent this operation or the quote. The lamentable treatment of Poland reflected the brutal fact that the Soviets were the ones with the tanks and troops. Unfortunately for most Poles, this meant exchanging a Nazi jackboot for a Soviet one. Going back to the Warsaw rising, many of those Polish freedom fighters who escaped being executed or tortured by the Germans were executed or tortured by the Russians.

[effortless]

I remember, I think it was McMillan, talking about the worst time of his life. Forcing Cossacks and poles on to trains, sending them back to certain death, from Victoria station! Realpolitique?

[jolihokistix]

Heathrow Harry, can you elaborate?

[Whenurhappy]

"I was amazed to read of "Operation Unthinkable"."

Well my dear old Dad was given a couple of jeeps loaded with armed Japanese officers and NCO's and was sent out to roam the streets of Jakarta in late '45 keeping Soekarno's nationalists in their place until the Dutch arrived to reinstall Western Civilisation - absolutely sickened him.

And similar happened in Saigon IIRC..............

This also occurred in Singapore and on the Malay peninsular, because of the abrupt end of the Pacific War. Without checking, Japanese forces were authorised by Mountbatten to retain side arms and maintain public order for about a month, until sufficient British and Imperial troops landed to take over.

[NutLoose]

Although as abhorrent as it is, that is exactly what should have been done post Iraq, perhaps then the country would have been left in a stable condition and the resulting lawlessness would have been avoided.

[Heathrow Harry]

"Heathrow Harry, can you elaborate?"

only what he told me - he was called up late so he was "held over" at the end of the war and finished up in Rangoon on VJ Day - they were then sent to Kemayoran - the old airfield then on the outskirts of Jakarta in Sept 45. The Brits were evacuating POW's and shipping the Japanese home but they also (as one Colonial Power) were happy to try and hold on until the Dutch (another colonial power) could get their act together and take up power again

there weren't enough British troops and the Indonesian troops and people were on the side of the Nationalists so the Brits drafted in some Japanese

It was chaotic see -
Indonesian National Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution)

at least he missed the fighting in Surabya

[walter kennedy]

Nutloose
Is that not what the UN boss, Sergio di Mello, said after the success of the classical war stage? Pity the enormous truck bomb managed to get through the American security to directly under his office - he was a good man but would have prevented the grinding-the-people-into-the-dirt-so-they-would-never-pose-a-threat-again-to-****** phase.

[skippedonce]

HH,

I seem to remember reading of similar incidents in Vietnam, with Japanese POWs under British/French/US control used to combat the communist Viet Minh until sufficient 'western' troops were available.

SO

[rh200]

We can all bemoan "could a", "should a" with Iraqi and its aftermath, but it won't change anything, but more importantly we don't know if it would have made things worse or better.

Using that scenario is a simple argument and its a lot more complicated. Control of a population can be extremely complicated and having a foreign force controlling a local force that was once loyal and possibly same sect as the previous government was a recipe for disaster.

Everything depended on how the Shia was going to react. We had enough problems dealing with the Sunnis and the relatively small amount of Shia troublemakers loyal to Sadr. The last thing we need was Sadr getting a lot more support.

The effect of that could have been massive unrest amongst the Shia population, and the only way to control that would have been to resort to brutal tactics via our proxys.

The end result is we can take our favorite political scapegoat standpoint, but its as relevant as blaming Iraqi not going to plan because Turkey wouldn't let the 4th ID in according to the original game plan.

[Heathrow Harry]

rh - the problem was there is no evidence of ANY plan post victory in Iraq

that is the issue - not that it was the wrong plan

TBH any bloody plan would have been better than the shambles that occurred

[Pontius Navigator]

Skip, like Indonesia the French hoped to return to the status quo ante bellum. Indeed the French had retained nominal control through the war as the Vichy powers were allied with the axis. The Japanese retained overall control.

[Mahogany_Bomber]

PN, before the calf skin?

[Red Line Entry]

Posh paper always keeps the locals in line! :O

[ShotOne]

The historian who wrote about Operation Unthinkable speculated that if Churchills plan had been put into effect, British troops would have refused to implement it. The evidence from the Far East suggests this wouldn't have happened. Given what we had at that point just found out about Japanese treatment of POWs it must have stuck in the throat for those involved, though.

What makes "Unthinkable" so, er, unthinkable is less the rearming of a former enemy, rather the absolute reversal of policy demonstrated by it. We declared war over Poland then fought for six bitter years at terrible cost in blood and treasure. Throughout, we supported the Russians with military supplies we could ill afford, only to, at the end, seriously consider turning their deadly foes against them.

[Heathrow Harry]

It did stick in their throats

my father said he was never so sickened in his life but orders were orders

[dmussen]

A chap with whom I worked on the Concorde was ex- "watercrew" on Sunderlands at the end of WWII. He was on the first Sunderland into Singers and wittnessed the "Brown Jobs" kicking Japanese off a now famous quay into the harbour and machine gunning them. No one said a word.

[GeeRam]

Unfortunately for most Poles, this meant exchanging a Nazi jackboot for a Soviet one. Going back to the Warsaw rising, many of those Polish freedom fighters who escaped being executed or tortured by the Germans were executed or tortured by the Russians.

Indeed.

My ex-MiL was a Pole born in eastern Poland (now Ukraine) in the late 1920's and so was living in the area turned over to the Soviets after the German invasion in 1939. In her words, what the Germans did was nothing in comparison to what the Soviets did. She made a tape recording back in the 1970's of what happened to her and her family when the Soviets rounded them all up and put them in railway cattle trucks and trained them to the camps somewhere deep inside the USSR.
She was the only member of her family to survive the USSR camps to be 'released' to the British forces in 1942(?) and make the trip down through the USSR and via Iraq and the middle east and then onto refugee camps in South Africa.