RAF Apprenticeships Graded 'Outstanding' By Ofsted

[GW844]

It's nice to show the value of the training we give youngsters on joining the Light Blue. This was published by Ofsted yesterday - for comparison, the Army were inspected in 2013 and were graded 'Good'


Ofsted | Ministry of Defence (RAF) (http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/inspection-reports/find-inspection-report/provider/ELS/54191)

[Lima Juliet]

Still not even near close to the proper apprenticeships we used to deliver at No1 School of Technical Training at RAF Halton. I wonder what grade Ofsted would have awarded for that? "Exceptional"?

LJ :cool:

[Croqueteer]

:ok: Almost as good as the ones at Locking!

[Onceapilot]

IMO, the whole package of training and careers in the RAF was the very best, until the early '80's. I am glad to hear that an element has risen from the ashes. However, I suspect that the overall picture is far less than rosy.:sad:

OAP

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Ofsted is a significant part of the problem with UK education.
Passing their inspections means you can jump through hoops; and because of the effort needed to jump through those hoops, student learning is not the top priority.

[gr4techie]

Modern Apprenticeship = Excuse to employ someone on the cheap. Maybe the employer receives a Government grant for every bod they sign on.

Some apprenticeships are not worth the weight of the card its printed on. I.E, not worth anything in civvy industry, certainly doesn't make you a licensed engineer. If you wanted to progress and study a BEng at university and they asked what qualifications you have and you were to turn around and say "NVQ level 2 in kicking tyres and topping up the engine oil" would they let you in? I seriously doubt it will meet the entry requirements, if recognised at all.

[Red Line Entry]

God, you lot are a miserable bunch!

Well done to all those involved, especially at the JNCO and SNCO instructor level where it all really takes place - a fantastic result!

[JAJM]

Fox3 said:

Ofsted is a significant part of the problem with UK education.
Passing their inspections means you can jump through hoops; and because of the effort needed to jump through those hoops, student learning is not the top priority.

I couldn't agree more!

Education now in the UK is about hitting targets instead of educating young people about things that will benefit them throughout their working lives. What happened to employing teaching staff who are suitably qualified in the subject they teach? I am not specifically referring to HMF here, but the education system as a whole.

I am, however, pleased that the RAF is setting the example, even if that example is a modern one. :)

JAJM

[Biggus]

Since I believe Fox3 now teaches for a living, I would be inclined to give his opinion of Ofsted more weight.

It also sounds a bit like the scenario a few years ago regarding the RAF and Investors in People, where selected individuals were taken aside at station level and trained/groomed to provide the visiting IIP inspectors the "correct" answer, rather than make any significant changes to fundamental procedures/institutions - the result? IIP accreditation achieved, but was that an accurate reflection of the organization?

[Whenurhappy]

Be that as it may, the fact that the RAF has resumed modern apprenticeship training, and by any measure seems to be doing it rather well, should be celebrated. OK - the RAF is not going to return to the Super-tech of 40 years ago. Get over it!

[salad-dodger]

Since I believe Fox3 now teaches for a living, I would be inclined to give his opinion of Ofsted more weight.
Countered by his obvious predilection for not knocking everything going on in the UK now that he has moved elsewhere!

S-D

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

1. I'm not alone. In the UK, only 2/3 of the teachers in state schools have a degree in my subject (physics). Golden Hellos of £25k are on offer and last year's uptake was 67% of target. I was not the only teacher to emigrate that year from my department of 7.
2. Canada has no equivalent of Ofsted. Education is done provincially, and my province has no provincial inspection system. There's a lot wrong with Canadian education, with about the same percentage of bad teachers as the UK, but at least nobody is wasting their time chasing Government paperwork and inspections, which is probably why Canada is well ahead of the UK in the PISA results.
3.The last time I was involved in preparations for an Ofsted Inspection was 2013, plus advising a colleague on ISI inspections 2 months ago.

Biggus - completely agree about IIP. In principle, there's nothing wrong with either IIP, Ofsted, or ISO 900x (which I have also worked in preparing for). However, in practice:
a) It is perfectly possible for crap organisations with terrible management to get accredited by getting the paperwork done, then ignoring all of it until the next inspection/re-accreditation. I speak from experience.
b) As a bureaucracy, the accreditation agency/Inspection authority has a vested interest in the process, but absolutely no responsibility for the outcome*, and no competition. The long term result is process over product every time.
c) The quality of the average Ofsted inspector is awful. Independent Schools in the UK are inspected by ISI. Their inspectors are serving senior teachers who take a week out to go inspect another school. I have had 5 as colleagues, and they were uniformly excellent. So, the UK has an easy fix for Ofsted; sack the lot of them and copy ISI. It won't happen though, because ISI is independent of Government, and the politicians hate that.

For the military, I don't see what was wrong with the system when I left it in 1993. Bloody excellent, I use stuff I learned in the RAF instructor system every day.
*In the RAF, if I as a Standards Officer failed another instructor, I had to design and teach the retraining course, and was held responsible for the instructor's re-pass. Ofsted just slag-off-and-leave.

[teeteringhead]

Passing their inspections means you can jump through hoops; and because of the effort needed to jump through those hoops, student learning is not the top priority. Exactly so Fox3.

As an Irish farmer once said to me on a similar subject:

"You don't make a pig any fatter by weighing it more often!"

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

:D:D I used that very phrase with a very senior DfE (not Ofsted) Inspector not 2 years ago. He laughed like a drain, then shook his head sadly. I think he's retired now.

[SlopJockey]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/outstanding-raf-apprentices-get-national-award-21012015:

Another Information & Communication Technology Technician Aircraftman Kirrian Singh, (19), originally from Norwich, enlisted to follow his father who had a 30-year career in the RAF. He is due to graduate in November and is hoping to be posted to RAF Marham in Norfolk to work on Tornado GR4 jets.

Bad enough letting fairies into TG1 it appears we are now letting TG3 and beyond work on aircraft :ugh:

[oldpax]

What aircraft trades are there now in the RAF?I mean there used to be airframe engine and inst /elect mechs as well as the J/T fitters .How are things done now on the first line servicing side?

[Red Line Entry]

oldpax,

https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/roles/technical-and-engineering/



As an aside, I note from the OP's link that the last similar inspection was 6 years ago - hardly seems like the pig is being weighed too often!

[OutlawPete]

Ofsted reports should be taken with a pinch of salt. For the most part, the audit process is predominantly 'end based' and doesn't focus enough on the journey for the apprentice or learner. There is some evidence that this is changing but not before time.

It is however, good to know that things are improving, when the first Modern Apprenticeship schemes started around 1998 the RAF probably delivered the worst apprenticeship in the country. Apprentices arrived on squadrons and NCOs didn't have a clue how their training was to be administered and accredited. It was shocking to say the least.

The Eng Tech A/P apprenticeship of old (and its Cosford equivalent) was probably the best training possible for an engineer in the RAF and yet to be beaten. They should never have scrapped it.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Up to 1969/1970, the RAF had an apprentice scheme to produce 5-trade [airframe/propulsion/electrical/air comms/air radar] "super-techs". Following a 5-year course, they graduated as a cpl and were boarded for promotion to sgt every 6 months whilst undergoing "improver training" on units. Some achieved chf tech in their late-20s/early-30s and were great "force multipliers" for the high intensity operations conducted on fast-jet sqns in the late-1970s to late-1980s, being particularly suited as the exercise/evaluation mobile "eyes and ears" / crew-in snag go/no-go advisors for engineering C2 personnel in the hardened Sqn Ops Facility and being of great utility on detachment recce teams (reducing numbers).

I have great sympathy for those who have to manage the current environment at 1st-line.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

They also used to train a few up as 'split brains' - two trades plus the ability to operate the back cockpit as a pax. They were very useful for taking abroad to fix snagged jets to get them home, rather than having to send out a full team slowly.

Although having the nav kit/computers dump just after takeoff into harry doggers weather over, say, Belgium was not my idea of fun, and happened more than once. Nevertheless, flying head down and thumbing along a chart came back to me reasonably quickly, whilst twiddling with VORs & reading En Route Supp.s is of course why the RAF recruits pilots with 3 hands and two pairs of eyes.;)
At least they managed to fix the jet every time.

[baffman]

Notwithstanding all the grumbling about OFSTED, there is surely something to celebrate in the assessment.

[Krystal n chips]

" Up to 1969/1970, the RAF had an apprentice scheme to produce 5-trade [airframe/propulsion/electrical/air comms/air radar] "super-techs". Following a 5-year course, they graduated as a cpl and were boarded for promotion to sgt every 6 months whilst undergoing "improver training" on units.

I beg to differ, quite considerably in fact.

The "super techs" did a 3 year course at Halton which included airframe / engine / electrical / armourer trades and passed out as Cpls, thereafter becoming part of the then time promotion scheme, so in that sense, yes they did get promoted to Sgt / C/T in their 20's.

There were no avionic "super techs" at Halton however, all the avionics trades went through Cosford.

The Craft apprentices did a 2 year course, departing as J/T's and thereafter went onto the same time promotion scheme, in theory doing 3 years as a J/T, then 4 years to Sgt and 5 years to C/T, all promotion being based on the passing the relevant trade exams and, getting the required assessments.

There were also, for a short period, Mechanic apprentices who did a 1 year course, passing out as an S.A.C but with enhanced opportunities to be selected for what was then called the fitters course to become a J/T on successful completion.

To save you asking, I was there at the time departing as a J/T as were several others who post on this site.

[The Oberon]

Quite correct K&C, but just to "dot the I's". The original avionics guys went through Locking and I think the first super techs, radar and comms, went through Cosford starting with the 104th passing out in early 1966. I also seem to remember that the super tech training was aimed mainly at first line rectification whereas single trade craft courses included 2nd and 3rd line techniques, certainly for the avionics guys.


I was a 3 year, pre-super tech Locking App. and it was fairly normal to pass out at 18 as a J/T, CPL at 21, SGT at 25 and C/T at 30, subject to passing the exams, boards and having the right numbers.

[EngAl]

Oberon - to dot some more I's, I've lifted this from the LAA site. Assuming it's correct, and it looks ok to me, It gives a decent summary of the situation from the early 60's when we joined until 76 when it all came to an end.

" 'Air’ trade groups apprentice training was transferred to RAF Cosford in 1965. Training in the ‘Ground’ specialisations continued at No: 1 Radio School.
The 106th final entry of Aircraft apprentices passed out in 1966.
The first Technician apprentice entry was the 107th. It passed out in 1967. Technician entries continued (missing out the 110th) up to and including the 122nd which passed out in 1976.
A 2 year course Craft apprentice training was introduced with the 201st entry and entries continued up to the 226th and then a single entry the 231st which passed out in 1974.
The first entry of Mechanic apprentices, the 402nd (a 1 year course) commenced training in 1970. There were only 5 such entries. The final mechanic apprentice entry (the 406th) passed out in 1972.
Apprentice training ceased in 1976 with the passing out of the 231st Craft apprentice entry.
This was 24 years after the first Apprentice training started at Locking and 54 years after the first Apprentice entry started training at Flowerdown.

[O-P]

I think there are a few 'Rose tinted glasses' here!


I served as a Halton Brat from '82-'85. I remember it as an awful place that just about managed to cram 9 months of training into 3 years. I wonder how standing at the side of a road for hours (plus the practice standing), equates to "Outstanding training".


I can only hope that the system now produces more effective airmen/women that can be productive the moment they reach their Sqn


I might be the only one, but I was very glad to see the old system go.

[gamecock]

O-P. I agree. I was there 85-88, and though I have some fantastic memories of my time there, there was an awful lot of padding in the apprenticeship. I certainly didn't feel ready to be a competent JNCO after a year either, and the less said about welfare/discipline the better!

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

I suppose the benefit of any apprenticeship is that 'industry' is recruiting, training, paying and supporting youngsters in skills that are needed.


Contrast that with Bliar's army of overqualified university graduates with little hope of employment and £20k student loans.


However this 'modern apprenticeship' is easy to criticise. It is very much 'on-the-job training', amassing reams of tick box exercises leading to NVQ's and return to Cosford for further training. It's hard to avoid putting them on tea bar or gate guard


Nevertheless, the youngsters seem to have a path mapped out for them.


At the workface, it can happen that a seemingly clueless youngster will throw himself into a brake unit change (at 100% supervision) and then photocopy the maintenance paperwork to add to his NVQ Assessor portfolio.

[longer ron]

Things had obviously changed by the 80's
I was trained at Halton 1970 -72 (craft apprentice rigger)
Our training was first class - not much padding involved !

I was a 'professional' J/T for some years before I bothered with promotion exams,less than 2 years after leaving Halton I had an 'oversigning chit' due to a shortage of JNCO's LOL.

The depth of training given on the Halton apprenticeships potentially gave Halton Brats a large advantage in overall knowledge and understanding of aircraft systems etc etc

[PeregrineW]

Always good to hear praise for a system of which one was once a part.

FWIW, my memories of the appo system at Cosford started in 1976 when I trained alongside them as a direct entry (DE) Nav Insty. I wanted to join as an apprentice myself, but was unable to locate my ex-Headmaster for his signature on the forms, as he'd quite inconveniently taken his family overseas on holiday. Thus I missed the window for that year's entry and was "persuaded" that DE was the route for me.

Anyhow, back in 1976 the system was for a 3-year apprenticeship (as opposed to 15 months training for a DE), passing out as a J/T. Appos were either pure Nav Insty (L Tech NI) or splitbrain Comms/Radar (L Tech AC/AR). After passing out as a J/T, an appo could expect to get his tapes up after a year, providing he got the assessments required (two sixes as I recollect). Time promotion to Chf Tech disappeared in 1975 I think, but to Sgt (4 yrs) it was retained until about 1979/80. Those of us who had joined up in the expectation of time promotion, but who failed to be selected under the new system had reserved rights of pay to the next rank up, providing you had the promotion exams under your belt.

Forward to 1984, and I was back at Cosford as an instructor. The appo schemes were just the same except we'd all been rebadged. L Fitt NI (the DEs) were now L Tech FS (Flight Systems), L Tech NI (the appos) were L Eng Tech FS. For comms and radar it was similar (L Fitt AC --> L Tech AC, L Fitt AR --> L Tech AR, L Tech AC/AR ==> L Eng Tech AC/AR). I don't know when the scheme changed, but when I left Cosford again in 1987 it was still as above.

Back then, it was a bloody good training system overall. I can't speak for the appos, but us DEs didn't do a lot of hanging around - it was 15 months of technical training. I may no longer employ any of the technical knowledge I learned at Cosford to earn a crust, but it was all good background for what I do now. The overall ethos of integrity and attention to detail which underpinned the RAF techie training system has stayed with me, and has (directly or indirectly) opened many doors for me over the years.

I'd like to think that Ofsted saw some of that when coming to their conclusions about modern RAF apprenticeships.

[salad-dodger]

A very good summary Peregrine. That rekindles some memories of a superb 3 years of training.

S-D (ex L Eng Tech FS 142 Entry 83-86)

[longer ron]

I may no longer employ any of the technical knowledge I learned at Cosford to earn a crust,

As a still practicing rigger I do employ the tech knowledge combined with 40 odd years of experience...the aircraft I work on are 40 years old.
The legacy from Halton though is not merely technical - we were taught to think things out for ourselves and we were expected to be irreverent and individual.
We did have some tw@ts on the DI staff but generally they were very good - the DI staff and Flight Commanders were amazingly tolerant of our behaviour and some of the 'traditions' were highly amusing :)

[PeregrineW]

Salad Dodger: I think it likely that our paths will have crossed, either in J Lines, Airfield Workshops, or 521 Hangar. 142 Entry doesn't ring any particular bells, but I certainly remember 144 very well. An absolute shower...:eek:

Longer Ron: My aircraft days are now far behind me, the railways pay better and now that I drive a desk the hours are better too. I do miss the sights, sounds, and smells though (and that was just the crewroom!). Self-reliance and "can do" are very much in demand wherever you go in the rail sector, and for those skills I am indebted entirely to the RAF.

[longer ron]

PW - yes you are spot on about the railways LOL
I know many ex techies now working with trains etc - they get paid far more than I do :)

I do miss the sights, sounds, and smells though (and that was just the crewroom!)

Actually the crewroom was still similar until a few (phew ?) years ago - we all have to behave these days (generally speaking) - very tedious !

rgds LR

[ericferret]

So what sort of money are the railways paying?
The money the airlines pay isn't bad, so I am surprised that the railways are paying more.

[longer ron]

Eric - Many people are not that bothered about working on aircraft after they demob !
I guess it also depends on personal circumstances,geographical location and which company actually offers a position.
I worked for Hawker Squiddeley after I left the RAF - when that particular facility was closed down all the techie people 'bomburst' into many different new careers - not many stayed with aircraft !

[Haraka]

we were taught to think things out for ourselves and we were expected to be irreverent and individual.

As offspring of one of 39 Entry's Little Gentlemen, I concur with that summation Longer Ron.
Being shipped in to Malta as a 19 year old tested those abilities to the full. When ,later, during the move up via Sicily ,Italy etc. The number of German Aircraft found abandoned, seemingly needlessly, on airfields with what to a "brat" were minor problems reinforced belief in the superiority of the RAF front-line maintenance doctrine. Indeed , Senior was involved in getting a number of Axis aircraft back into the air for evaluation in theatre. When later working with POW Luftwaffe ground crew, the system liabilities of just having largely "box changers" in the front-line were apparent ( a comment also made by many about USAAF front-line servicing) . All well and good when you are going forwards and the logistics pipelines are in full flow - but when that went to rats.........
As you well know the stories of RAF ingenuity in individualistic " make do" engineering,based upon excellent fundamental knowledge are legion over the years.
The situation is of course very different philosophically now,with not so much room for "individual" fixes, however it is predicated on adequate logistics support which is presumed ( has) to be in place to generate enough War Goers
Senior once stated in the early 60's : " You put my generation on a Lightning,without handbooks, and we would probably , in time, work it out for ourselves."
I very much doubt if that would apply now.

[endplay]

Did a Locking Craft app 68-70 as a Radar fitter. Most of my energy was devoted to surviving the experience rather than learning my trade. I learnt more in the first 6 months at my first unit (Bawdsey) than in my 2 years training. Not knocking it, just remembering how utterly unprepared I was as a J/T (God I was Crap) and had to be led by the nose by a 35 year old SAC. Bless him!!

[longer ron]

I did just enough work at Halton to graduate reasonably well - most of my spare time was either gliding/drinking/err 'socialising' :).
Halton did not tell my first unit that I was going on a 6 week flying course after graduation - so I was adrift and arrived under a black cloud :).
I was picked up by a bitter and twisted leccy SAC with a long distance medal LOL and banished to the Canberra OCU at the far end of the airfield.
I was also crap for the first few months but the basic knowledge was well implanted and eventually surfaced and became useful !

[The Oberon]

As per the 2 previous posters, I did just enough to pass out from Locking in Dec. 64, too busy going to concerts at The Colston Hall and Weston Odeon etc. I arrived at Marham all ready to go only to find that the Valiants were being broken up, that didn't do my enthusiasm much good.


In June / July 1965 I moved on to Wittering where I looked forward to working on aircraft that actually flew. I arrived on a Thursday and having booked in at the guardroom I phoned the Victor Line only to be told that I would do my arrival on the Friday and I was to report to the QRA site the following Monday. I tried to explain that other than training, I had never worked on aircraft, never mind a Victor B2R with a live Blue Steel slung underneath it !! " It's OK, you get yourself over there and we will send someone across and show you where things are". On the Monday I had a 30 min walkabout which consisted of "Green Satin is in there, that's Red Steer etc etc" I was then left for a week on my own to look after 2 armed QRA Victors, bit of a steep curve I think.