Flybe Wings 2015

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Flybe Update (http://www.ctcwings.com/flybewings/holding)

Looks like this is opening up again.

[Officer Kite]

I shall be steering well clear.

[planedrive]

Interesting that this has gone to MPL. It has always been a full ATPL programme up until now. Wonder if the price will show the 'reduced costs associated with the new License'..?

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Officer Kite

How come?

[Panther1984]

For those who want their first step on the ladder I wouldn't 'steer clear' of this. Flybe gave me my first break in this career and I'm duely thankful of it. If you can fly a Q400 you can fly anything. Good luck

[cheerup]

Good to see Flybe are contributing a pretty substantial chunk towards training costs. £66k loan still rules me out of this one unfortunately, but I know lots of guys and girls who've progressed well from Flybe, great wee airline and brilliant place to start a flying career. Good luck to those who apply!

[mackoi]

Hey mates,

In order to plan the finances, does any of you know the salary scheme at Flybe for the cadets??

I would need to take a partial loan and I want to be sure that during the first years at Flybe is possible to live and pay back the loan.

Thanks!

[Groundloop]

Wonder if the price will show the 'reduced costs associated with the new License'..?

What reduced costs? Are you quoting another of the MPL myths? It was never intended to be cheaper.

[almon1298]

Wonder how many folk have an honours degree and access to £66k or credit rating to get £66k (after student debt and probable lack of necessary UK property) Not me anyway. Put in an application despite this as if I even got a sniff at this id be willing to shift some mountains to get into a program with a job at the end! Its worth it!

[reeko]

I can see where Officer Kite is coming from. With Flybe's history of redundancies (restructuring) at short notice and now their MPL tagged scheme with CTC to recruit... Seems very cut-throat.:*

However, If I was given the opportunity AND had the money for it I wouldn't hesitate to accept.

Good luck to those who apply.

[Planetick]

As I understood it's not necessary to have a honours degree.

It's written that it's necessary to have 5 GCSEs at C or Above and either 2 A Levels at C or higher or an honours degree at 2:2 or higher.

Nevertheless the Money Problem still remains the Same :D

[almon1298]

Oh is it "OR a 2:2 hons degree"? That's not so bad then. Shows my "verbal reasoning" skills haha. I was wondering why I hadn't received automatic rejection already.

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

After doing the maths on a loan of £66k costing £670/month with a salary of £28378 before tax, plus duty pay of £150/month minus the £396/month salary sacrifice, minus other costs such as pension etc leaves me with a figure of just £746/month take home pay :sad:.

In effect you take home as much as someone earning £9500 a year.

I'm working on 4.1% apr, as interest rates are most likely set to rise over the next few years.

Can any current FO's confirm/deny if i'm in the right ballpark?

[BAe 146-100]

BVB you are in the right ballpark, I have 1 friend in flybe who went via ctc and he likes it, good training, nice company, but bottom end pay, so the job is good but the pay not.

You also have to bear in mind where you want to be 5 years down the road, if you are happy to stay in a regional for a long time then its as good as any place to be, but doing 5 years in a Dash 8 is not going to make you that much employable on a A320 or 737 when most jobs want type rated and 500 hours on type, that is worth bearing in mind when going for flybe or easyJet.

[mackoi]

BVB, that's exactly what I was talking about. It is not possible to live in UK and pay back the loan at the same time with that salary. I think that this programme is perfect for someone who does not need to request a loan, but for the others...

BAe 146, I agree partialy. Multi Engine, multi crew flight time (even if not PIC and turboprop) is gold. Enough to enter the loop in my opinion. In addition, the funding required for the Flybe programme is much less (about half) than the Easyjet programme.

As I usually do I will buy some kg of ice cream, sniff.....

[reeko]

BVB, What is the £396 per month salary sacrifice in your calculations? Personal sacrifice?

[mackoi]

Reeko, since FlyBe pays part of your training the salary is reduced during the first years, that's the sacrifice.

[reeko]

Thanks Mackoi, so in essence your looking at circa £3-500 left for 'living after rent (depending on how much), pension, repayment of training and repayment of loan of circa £66,000.

Not much indeed... Wheres that ice cream Mackoi :(

[mackoi]

Strawberry cheesecake is ok for you? :}

After talking with former CTC cadets (now employed) I have to say that you'll need more than those 66k. If you need few more hours to be ready for a flight test or if you fail a test you may need few thousands more. Also you have to consider your commuting needs during training (car and so on). Or even to pay part of the TR although it was suppossed to be included. Yes, let your imagination fly. xxx___DDDDD Sorry for raining on your parade, but I prefer to be realistic and be warned about the odds.

[Officer Kite]

Others have answered exactly what I was thinking, I'll be avoiding and it looks like others will be too ...

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Officer Kite

How come?

Think I answered my own question.

I did the calculations at £70k loan and end up with £705 left each month.

Per diems pay was based on 850hrs flying not duty, if Flybe pay duty hours then duty pay would be more than I estimated.

However projected doesn't look too much better; after 5 years I will be taking home exactly what I do now as an engineer.

What I also didn't consider was the extra interest added from taking a 24 month holiday period on the loan.

All things said and done you are probably better off with EZY, or BA for sure.

mackoi, I prefer cookie dough :}

[Officer Kite]

I am not in this game for the cash and I know my fellow wannabes aren't either (for the most part I hope anyway), but anything in the region of £1000 a month is a kick in the teeth. I can't help but point out the fact that I had a part time job over the Christmas period at a well known retail outlet, my pay for folding jeans and shirts for 20 hours a week was actually more than what this scheme will offer.

[mackoi]

anything in the region of £1000 a month is a kick in the teeth.

Unless either you don't need a loan or you're a daddy boy, otherwise prepare to suffer financial pain during your first years at Flybe.

[vrb03kt]

BaronVonBarnstormer, your figures aren't a million miles off. However, the salary sacrifice portion is taken before tax, so it's not quite as much as £396 per month. Also the per diems are based on duty hours, not block hours.

Nevertheless, you wouldn't be doing it for the money, that's for sure.

[mackoi]

Does Flybe tend to choose English nationals? (even if the other Europeans have a good level of English language)

By the way, I did my numbers as well and you'll need a total of 75kPounds for the whole process, not including unexpected fees.

Selection 245 + commuting
Medical 350 + commuting
Insurance 1030
Living 7000 minimum
MPL 66000

And I would suggest an additional amount as a safety margin, just in case something goes wrong.

[Reversethrustset]

I don't really know why this deal is getting slated so much. I think you are all looking at it through the wrong window.
Flight training in the last 20 years is not free of charge. If you want to fly aeroplanes then you are going to have to pay for training. As you all know there are various ways to do this, integrated, modular, mpl, and airline schemes. Either way it is going to cost you alot of money. Look at each way in detail
Integrated, its going to cost you around £100,000. No job guarantee.
Modular, probably in the region of £70,000. No job guarantee
MPL, probably the same as integrated, around £100,000. Job guarantee? 99.9%
Airline scheme, £66,000 + living expenses. Job guarantee? 99.9%

The BA scheme so I am led to believe is similar, they pay for part of your training and you have a salary decrease to pay it back. The only difference between this and BA is that with Flybe you start on a lower salary so it feels like a bum deal. You could choose to do it the other way, go integrated or modular, pay through the nose and hope you get an interview with an airline but you'll be joining the masses with the same license trying to find a job. Whichever way you choose it's going to cost you a serious amount of cash, there are no free ways into this industry anymore and this scheme is a genuine attempt to give the cadet a leg up and start in the industry at a reduced initial cost outlay.

[ManUtd1999]

The only difference between this and BA is that with Flybe you start on a lower salary so it feels like a bum deal.

There's also the loan guarantee that BA provide to all candidates. This makes a huge difference for people that a) don't have 60,000 cash lying around b) don't have or don't want to use their (parents) house as security

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Whichever way you choose it's going to cost you a serious amount of cash, there are no free ways into this industry anymore and this scheme is a genuine attempt to give the cadet a leg up and start in the industry at a reduced initial cost outlay.

I totally agree. However sometimes in life you have to be realistic. If Flybe FOs earned even what EZY FOs did then this scheme would make a whole lot more sense.

The only way this adds up to me is if you can get your hands on £70K interest free, which means making some big sad eyes at mummy and daddy to get them to buy you a job.

Living on just circa £750/ month has serious implications; you want to save to buy a house? Forget it. You want to take your SO on holiday? Fat chance. Want to upgrade from your crummy Yaris? Dream on sonny boy. Want to fix the broken boiler? HAHAHA your'e having laugh mate.

And god help you if you get a LCY basing. THE cheapest flat I could find in that area with a quick search was £500pcm.

I'm sat here comparing the quality of life I would have if I was successful through this scheme and the life i could have doing what I do now. Even though my job is boring the deal just doesn't add up for me. Yes I would love the job flying, i'd chop off my left :mad: to get in to the right hand seat but am I willing to prostitute myself to some :mad: at BBVA for the chance to do it? No.

Rant over. I'm off to ask daddy for £70k :E

[Stocious]

And god help you if you get a LCY basing. THE cheapest flat I could find in that area with a quick search was £500pcm.

£500pcm near LCY? Got to be a houseshare!

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Put it this way; Harry Potter had a better deal under his stairs. :8

[six-sixty]

There are very many people who have used Flybe as a great entry point into the industry, but there are fewer and fewer each year. Guys and gals used to be snapped up by the charters etc after a good few 000 hrs wrestling the beast of a TP that the Dash is but the emphasis has moved right away from experience and to cadets as they are cheaper. Combined with this Internally the emphasis is on the TP as the strategic type of choice over the jet, Flybe is increasingly becoming a one way career dead end for anyone with ambitions to get off props and by definition increase their quality of lifestyle and pay.

Admittedly there are a few places in the ME etc which have allowed Dash drivers to move on by accepting their experience and that may continue but in the UK if your first job isn't on a Boeing or a Bus then unless you can get through BA's astronaut selection (and before you ask no I couldn't) you will be chasing the very few "opportunities" to buy yourself a second officer position with the likes of EZ or a part time contract with Jet2. That's after all the financial hardship you already went through...

I hope I'm not coming across as disrespecting the company because I'm not and they pay my mortgage, but go into it knowing exactly where you want to end up because if it is on a medium jet or above, you will have a fight on your hands

[juniour jetset]

great quote six-sixty "BA's astronaut selection" :ok:

[mackoi]

great quote six-sixty "BA's astronaut selection"

Indeed. Being Spanish I did not even try BA, although my english is not bad.

If I had enough money for this Flybe programme I would go for it, but I don't and for sure I have not any property in the UK to secure a loan (20k loan or so). :hmm:

However I tried Aer Lingus and they got rid of me in the first stage, looked like they were mostly looking for Irish people.

If I have to wait for a Spanish company to open a cadet programme .... xD, well I would die before that happens. Probably I'm going modular with a school in BCN while working as an engineer and then aim to Ryan or something similar, at my early 30's I cannot wait anymore.

[Officer Kite]

However I tried Aer Lingus and they got rid of me in the first stage, looked like they were mostly looking for Irish people

This was certainly not the case I can assure you !

With regards the FlyBe Wings scheme, the likelihood of being stuck on the dash for roughly 10 years waiting to get on the embraer isn't something I would look forward to. Yes it is a job at a great price, but I feel you will pay a lot more in lost chances to develop your career further with a programme that offers a jet. As well as that, as someone else mentioned, how can you survive on the salary given all the repayments and the possibility of a LCY base would put you in one hell of a financial :mad:.

Don't get me wrong I feel this is a great opportunity and offers a lifestyle that many want, just not me.

[six-sixty]

Just to clarify no one will be based at LCY because there is no LCY base at Flybe.

[speed_alive_rotate]

"However I tried Aer Lingus and they got rid of me in the first stage, looked like they were mostly looking for Irish people"
@mackoi: You should try the other Irish airlines, some of them will hire anyone BUT Irish pilots!!!!!!

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I am not in this game for the cash and I know my fellow wannabes aren't either (for the most part I hope anyway)

Well you bloody well should be! While I applaud your enthusiasm, having been in your situation only 5 years ago, 4 years of airline flying down the road I can assure you that when you get that flying job you're merely entering into a business relationship whereby you fly for reward (the definition of what a CPL entitles you to do).

While that reward will come in other forms than purely monetary, it won't take you long to realise that this is a job first and foremost. We fly because we want to enjoy what we do while being able to pay the bills and give ourselves a certain standard of living. Ask the majority of professional pilots out there whether they would be doing the same type of flying if they won the lottery and you'll find the overwhelming majority will answer no. Personally, I'd never like to give up flying entirely but there are numerous times ahead where you will question your decision to give up another career for all this. And yes, I'm certainly in the camp that would give up airline flying and go back to flying for fun if I could afford to.

Very best of luck with everything and please don't take my post as a downer on your enthusiasm but make no mistake, this is a JOB and the days of it being a vocation are long gone.

[Officer Kite]

Interesting perspective 2 whites 2 reds, it's always great to hear from people on the other side of the fence. Don't get me wrong, while I do realise the importance of the salary side of things and how much more I will value it as I progress in the career (provided I'm successful that is), what I meant was that as a five year old begging my parents to take me up to the viewing deck at heathrow, or as a 9 year old getting my hands on my first flight sim game, money has never been at the centre of my desire to be a pilot, it's just one of the bonuses for me right now. I have no doubt that will change as things progress !

On a somewhat separate note ...

Another reason I said it was to clarify that I'm not being snobbish as so many of us wannabes get accused of by older people. People who think that we think we're too good to fly a tp, that certainly is not the case for me anyway (I would actually love the challenge of a turboprop). However this Flybe scheme and the dash 8 is a one way road with a dead end not too far down the line if you ask me, hence why I'll be avoiding.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

As I said OK, my comments are not intended to dissuade you from persuing a career sat at the pointy end. It would be somewhat hypocritical of me to do anything of the sort but before throwing the kitchen sink at this career you need to be aware of what you're entering in to. Don't underestimate the volume and severity of compromises that you will be asked and indeed expected to make. While life is full of compromises, I've been shocked at the expectation by airlines for us to uproot our lives, take a lower salary, work longer hours and accept ridiculous leave systems at the drop of a hat. These aren't minor considerations and all of which will have enormous ramifications on your home life, social life and overall health if you don't manage it. I've never been in any job that's required "Managing" let alone on such a grand scale. Luckily I have a very supportive Wife but to be honest for every major compromise I'm asked to make I fall out of love with flying a little bit more. The only thing that counters these compromises is earning reasonable (although not great) money. This is the only tangeable thing that I can use to justify the compromises to Mrs 2W2R. There's more to life than money and as mentioned in my previous post, the rewards you'll get from flying will be more than purely financial. However, we go to work to earn a living and this, more so than any other job I know of, is a business relationship where you will be treated as a number and dropped like a stone when you are no longer required or affordable. The least you should expect in return for the endless compromises and so on it a reasonable standard of living. It's just a job!

[mackoi]

2W2R, if I may ask: Considering all those aspects you said, would you give up your flying career to do whatever you did before flying?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Like most people, once you reach a certain point giving up isn't really an option in the medium term thanks to a flight training loan to pay back.

Would I go back to my previous career.....tricky one. I enjoyed my old job. Not on the scale that I enjoy my current job but then the enjoyment is limited to ME and not my family. My previous career provided a reasonable income and didn't require anything like the same sort of sacrafices as aviaiton. As you know, this industry is littered with divorcees who ultimately paid the price at home for the endless compromises.

If I had my time again would I be flying for a living......not on your nelly. I would have worked harder at school and been a Doctor which is actually what I dreamt of doing when I was younger.

Don't get me wrong, I love flying. Really I do. I genuinely look forward to going to work and actually not once have I ever felt like I'm at work when I'm at work (if that makes sense). The price to be paid for this enjoyment is at home but just how much can I ask of my family before I call it a day. I don;t have an axe to grind, I'm not unhappy with my lot and I don't resent airlines or the industry. But it's food for thought or you guys looking at this as a viable career. Some say take the rough with the smooth but the rough in aviation could lead to some pretty horrible places. As I say, Managing it is key.

[dreambig24]

2W2R, thanks for your honest answer.

[mackoi]

Thank you!

[Stocious]

I'm not sure your home life would be any better as a junior Doctor!

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Early on as a Junior Quack I would agree but from the few school friends that became Doctors, once the Junior Doctor bit was done and they became either GP's or Registrar's, the endless compromises seem to have stopped and they're left alone to get on with their careers. To my knowledge, although I'm happy to be corrected, they're not asked to keep accepting relocations, poorer contracts and pay for training if they opt to move into a different field. It's no bed of roses in the early days for sure but once on their desired track they have all seemed to get better and better off every year. Can the same really be said in our game?

As I said, I don't have an axe to grind and have a great home life but I'm sure at some point I'll be expected to take another kick in the balls for an Airline. I hope not but it's certainly anticipated. With that in mind, people looking to embark on this career need to be aware of the potential pitfalls that may not have been entirely considered. While every career has its downsides, the potential land mines in aviation can be particularly frequent, wide ranging and damaging.

Thankfully Mrs 2W2R is very understanding but there's a limit to what I will put my family through in the name of aviation. My main point was that don't be frightened to admit that while you enjoy your job, you need to be in this for the money as well. Becoming a pilot at any cost has been the attitude of so many over the last decade and the airlines have exploited it. It's a big reason for the downward spiral of T's & C's. Being SOLELY in it for the cash will only lead to doom and almost certain disappointment but unless you're fortunate enough to be from money, you need to earn a living. Especially with the financial outlay that newbies are expected to cough up these days....what's an OAA / CTC course cost these days? £100k ish plus the type rating cost of £30k ish....that's alot of dosh to recoup and pay back.

Anyway, apologies for the thread drift. Have a good weekend all!

[TizerTheAppetizer]

What is a typical week or fortnight like for a new FO at Flybe?

After the line training that is. I'm particularly interested in the rota for FOs.

Thank you.

PS I've flown as a passenger in a Q400 a few times and I'd love to fly one as a pilot (with all the caveats mentioned above).

[Officer Kite]

Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling this scheme isn't really selling well. Usually when such schemes open this place is a hive of chatter and general discussion, that's for programmes costing 100k + so you would think this would generate a lot more chat. I rang ctc the day it opened and was quickly encouraged to send in an application (more enthusiastically than previous calls about other schemes).

I may be wrong but that's the impression I'm getting.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Didn't Flybe lay off all of their cadets mid training not so long ago? Can't be 100% sure on that one but I'm fairly certain that was basically what happened. Maybe people are somewhat cautious and the availability of Finance for such a scheme, not to mention security, is harder to come by?

CTC / OAA / FTE et al are all businesses first and foremost. Never forget that and in their never ending quest to be the school with the most airline logo's all over their brochures and website means that, in reality, they hold no loyalty to you as the customer (a word that doesn't get used much if at all by these FTO's). Their main goal is to keep the airline happy. You are just another piggy entering the sausage machine. Sad but true!

Sorry OK, I probably sound like a miserable :mad:. I'm not, I've just been through it all and now see these companies for what they are. However in terms of the end game, you could do a lot worse than FlyBe! Good company and a good job (from what I hear). Last time I had any dealings with the HR / Recruitment people I was thoroughly impressesed. Which is definitely not the norm for airline HR!

[average-punter]

An excellent post. I know the first CTC group made it through without being laid off, I'm not sure about FTE.

CTC / OAA / FTE et al are all businesses first and foremost. Never forget that and in their never ending quest to be the school with the most airline logo's all over their brochures and website means that, in reality, they hold no loyalty to you as the customer (a word that doesn't get used much if at all by these FTO's). Their main goal is to keep the airline happy. You are just another piggy entering the sausage machine. Sad but true!
+1

You are most certainly just a number

Sorry OK, I probably sound like a miserable :mad:. I'm not, I've just been through it all and now see these companies for what they are. However in terms of the end game, you could do a lot worse than FlyBe! Good company and a good job (from what I hear). Last time I had any dealings with the HR / Recruitment people I was thoroughly impressesed. Which is definitely not the norm for airline HR!
I also agree with you. I had a very positive experience with the pilot recruitment team. It was a great interview format and the pilot recruitment manager who may initially seem fierce totally put me at ease and was extremely friendly. I ran into her by chance a year or two later, she remembered me and we had a very pleasant chat. I got a great impression of Flybe.

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

I sent off an application to see what would happen. I got an invite a day or so after. I haven't booked a day as I still cant justify the large financial outlay against the small financial reward (see earlier in the thread). To be honest I think CTC just want my £245.

[QR1]

Flyveryhigh, that shouldn't be right. I know many people who previously passed the aptitude with one airline's programme at CTC but not the interview, they were able to reapply to other airline programmes for the interview repeat and anything else that differed from them for only the £130 (the new reapplication fee).

[Boe787ing]

Can anyone advise what to expect on the day for Flybe? Is it PILAPT & group activity?

[ecco123]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum.

I applied to this program and I received an email saying "your application has progressed to the next phase"

I'm currently filling the second battery of questions, but, and I've been seriously put down by the calculations made in previous pages.

I made my own maths and it's even worse in my case with BBVA Spain's high interest if you don't have a house to mortage.

I used this website to calculate the net income: ListenToTaxman Tax Calculator 2014 UK Salary Calculator / Tax Calculator / Income Tax Calculator. Incorporates PAYE, national insurance, tax code, pensions and student loan repayments (http://www.listentotaxman.com/) and I get £22,249.72 p/y after tax. ¿Aren't the payment of the Loan and the salary sacrifice (to pay the sponsorship back) considered as deductions?

In CTC's site they say "you will receive a Flight Duty Allowance at £2.09 per hour". Do they count just the fly hours or every work hour? How much could we expect from this "Flight Duty Allowance"? This is not stated in FTE Jerez Flybe page, but I guess it's the same.

I would really love to be selected for the Flybe program, I'm willing to do reasonable financial sacrifices, I'm not concerned about flying turboprop or the difficulties to move to jets in the future it's been discussed before, but I don't think I could live in the UK with a net income of £700 a month.

So I really have to do the maths well before driving for 9 hours to Jerez for the assessment.

[am59fly]

Hi guys, I was just wondering if anyone was booked in for CTC's assessment tomorrow (19/02/15) ?

Also, does anyone know how many selection days there are ?
When I booked mine the 19th was the only day available.

[VLT_029]

When I booked mine only the 25/02/2015 was available.

[Boe787ing]

26th is also a date....

[Boe787ing]

Anyone get called forward for Exeter interview??

[ecco123]

I applied through FTE Jerez on 14th Feb. No answer yet.

By the way, for the maths test, you are not allowed to use a calculator, but, can you use pen and paper?

[B77L]

By the way, for the maths test, you are not allowed to use a calculator, but, can you use pen and paper?

I'd be surprised if you couldn't.

[Officer Kite]

Unless FlyBe is different, FTE allow you to use a calculator in all tests.

[michael12345]

I didn't get called...passed numeracy and PILAPT, but not interview...

[cozizme]

Anyone have any ideas what numbers might have been called to the interview/assessment stage?

[Budding]

I THINK roughly 100 to selection and 12 to interview.
6 places. I think.

[Budding]

'statistically', however BA have a record of not filling all their slots. Still very interesting none the less.

[JPFTEJerez]

Good luck to everyone who has an interview this week!

[2078OWHC]

Just wondering if anyone on this thread has made it through to the Flybe MPL course with CTC starting in June?

[reeko]

yes :) Its gonna be a busy 18 months for me :ok:

[dboy]

How is the situation now with flybe? Do they still need pilots?

Is commuting in this company possible ( i am from europe mainland), or is it wishful thinking????

Tx in advance

Best wishes to you all.

[Coffin Corner]

Yes they need pilots.
Commuting from Europe whilst working for Flybe? Forget it.

[dboy]

Tx coffin.

[RexBanner]

Coffin Corner is correct. The majority of the guys who were booted out of the Jersey base when it shut have given up on commuting despite - in many cases - owning houses on the island. Those who have kept the commute going have had to go part time and even then it has been hard work.

Jersey is very well connected from most of the Flybe bases so if you can't even commute from there then from Europe is totally out of the question.

[EZY_FR]

Does anyone know when FTE is planning to reopen their Flybe MPL scheme?